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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2012,00:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2012,21:04) Hi MB,
Do you think it is wise to try to understand what is spiritual using natural logic?
That is what we have been given by our Creator, Nick. Do you think it is wise to use the weak claim “the spirit must show you this” to get around the fact that the scriptures don't actually teach your doctrine? This is the claim the Trinitarians make to avoid the fact that the scriptures don't actually teach their doctrine. Do you agree with them that YOU personally just can't “see” the truth of the Trinity Godhead because “the spirit hasn't shown it to you”?If you don't, then please don't use that weak claim against me or anyone else, okay?
It is impossible for the spirit to show you anything that would contradict the scriptures. If the scriptures don't back up what your spirit is showing you, then you are being fooled by an evil spirit masquerading as an angel of light.
Hi MB,
When will you come down from the self appointed role of arbiter of truth?Was John the baptist Elijah?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2012,14:03) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 25 2012,12:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2012,11:45) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 24 2012,15:48) Mike, So, you believe that Father Yahweh's word is a “who” as a separate being that exist apart from Him, but with Him? Now, who do you say that is confused here?
You and Nick are the confused ones, Frank – to answer your question.Yes, the Word of God is and was a separate being who was WITH his God in the beginning. After creating him as the first of His works, God then created all other things through him.
Mike,Where in Scripture does it ever teach that Father Yahweh's word “was a separate being who was WITH his God in the beginning.” and that Father Yahweh created His son Yahshua “as the first of His works” and “then created all other things through him.”?
Hi Frank,
Do you believe God spoke through Yashua?
Nick,Yahshua said what his and our Father commanded him to speak, that is what he spoke. He is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period. This is not to say that on all occasions when Yahshua spoke that Father Yahweh was speaking through him. He certainly had spoken concerning himself on many occasions just as the prophets and spokesmen of Father Yahweh's word before him.
I know that you are attempting to convince me that when Yahshua said “I am” that this was his and our Father Yahweh speaking through him saying “I Am”. This is not the case though. Yahshua said that his and our Father who sent him commanded him what to say and how to say it. Certainly Father Yahweh instructed him what to say and how to say it, but He most certainly would have instructed him on how to speak of himself also. It is quite clear from the context of Yahchanan [John] 8:58 when Yahshua said “I am” in reference to himself that he was speaking of himself.
Then Yahshua shouted out to the crowds, “When a man believes in me, HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN ME ONLY, but in the One Who sent me. When a man looks at me, he perceives the One Who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who BELIEVES IN ME should stay in darkness. As for the person who hears MY WORDS but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to redeem it. There is a Judge for the one who REJECTS ME and does not accept MY WORDS; that very word which I spoke will condemn him in the last time period. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say AND HOW TO SAY IT. I know that His command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just WHAT THE FATHER HAS TOLD ME TO SAY” (Yahchanan [John] 12:44-50).
It is quite clear from the above passage that in what Yahshua spoke that it was not his and our Father Yahweh speaking through him concerning every word that he spoke as if it only applied to Father Yahweh.
Note what it says in 1 Kepha [Peter] 4:11a:
If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of Yahweh (1 Kepha [Peter] 4:11a).
Does this convey the meaning that every word that we speak that it is Father Yahweh speaking through us? Certainly not! When we say “I am” in reference to ourselves one is not to conclude that this is Father Yahweh speaking through us saying that He is “The Great I Am”. This would be nothing but pure nonsense to conclude such a thing as this.
Hi F,
There is no division between God and His Word.
They are one.You should not fight Jesus when he claims to speak the words of God
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2012,00:13) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 24 2012,20:36) Yahchanan says that Father Yahweh's word was with Him and that His word had might, strength and power [yl – “god”]. The meaning of the Hebrew word 'yl' designates in our English language 'might, strength, or power.
While it is not completely clear, the best guesses of experts are that “el” referred either to “might”, or to “one to be feared (revered)”.So, I'm with you on that point. Here's my problem: It simply makes no sense to treat the words God speaks as if they are a separate being that can be WITH God.
And I know you guys try to put on a straight face while telling us that our words are WITH us, and ARE us, but you are simply pretending this makes sense. No one in their right mind would say, “John went to the store today, and his words went WITH him”.
Nor do you have a way to address the fact that this particular Word of God BECAME flesh at one point. And not only did it BECOME flesh, but when it did, it had the glory of the SON of God. Is a spoken word of God now His SON?
Nor do you acknowledge the scriptures that say all things were created, not ONLY through the Word of God, but also through “the Son of God” and “our Lord, Jesus Christ”.
So while all of you (except for Ed – for some odd reason) accept that it is Jesus who is called “The Word of God” in Rev 19:13, you REFUSE to make the connection that the same exact author calls the same exact person by the same exact title in his gospel and in his revelation.
And I use the word “REFUSE” because I know you all can see this connection as clear as the rest of us do. It's just that you guys have a WISH for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” (as Gene puts it), because you feel that if you can convince yourselves that Jesus was “exactly like us”, you have a better chance of following his teachings and having success like he did. And because of your personal WISH for Jesus to have been “exactly like us”, you must PRETEND that you can't see this very obvious connection.
Frank, the fact is that the Word BECAME flesh. HE did not come to “be in someone who was flesh”, like you guys imagine. HE BECAME flesh, had the glory of the Son of God that he was, and John was unfit to untie his sandals. This was all said about “The Word of God”, Frank. Does a spoken word of God wear sandals?
Anyway, to say the least, it is interesting for us to see the lengths to which you guys will go when twisting the scriptures to get them to teach what you WANT them to teach.
Mike,You say:
Quote Here's my problem: It simply makes no sense to treat the words God speaks as if they are a separate being that can be WITH God. Is this not the nonsense that you propose that we accept? Yes, this certainly is your problem, I believe. At least I had thought that this was your stance, but maybe I am mistaken!
If your word is not with you, could you please tell us who your word is with if believe that it is not with you? If your word that we are reading on this forum is not you, could you please tell us who your word is if you believe it not to be you?
I am aware that we do not speak in the same manner that Scripture is written or translated. Did not Yahshua himself speak parabolically or in an illustrative manner? Is not Scripture (Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word) as a whole written in this same manner frequently?
As for the rest of the foolishness that you are babbling on about, it is you that believes that Father Yahweh's word was an actual being that existed with Him in the beginning, right? I certainly do not believe such foolishness as this!
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
WHO IS THE WORD?
(John 1:1)Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2012,10:43) When will you come down from the self appointed role of arbiter of truth?
The real question is: When will YOU?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2012,05:52) Hi F,
There is no division between God and His Word.
They are one.You should not fight Jesus when he claims to speak the words of God
Nick,Where did I ever say “There is a division between God and His Word.”?
I also believe that Father Yahweh and His word are one. Father Yahweh certainly would not speak contrary to His own word that He had previously spoken, right?
I believe that Yahshua spoke the word of his and our Father Yahweh and I also believe that we should follow in his example and also speak His word, but not every word that we speak is Father Yahweh speaking through us.
Frank,
What about all the “coincidences” in my last post to you?
Don't you find it at least interesting that John called a person “The Word of God” in Rev 19:13, and then he called someone by that same exact title in John 1:1 and 1:14?
Doesn't it seem probable that since this “Word of God” became flesh and had the glory of God's only begotten Son – someone we all know is Jesus – that John was talking about Jesus all along?
Doesn't it seem convincing to you that all things in heaven and on earth are said to have been made through:
1. The Word of God
2. The Son of God
3. Our Lord, Jesus Christ?I just can't believe that you guys would let your personal WISH for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” cause you to pretend so many clear “clues” mean something oddball and bizarre – instead of meaning exactly what they say.
Frank, the one you call your Lord said, “I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN“. Why won't you believe him?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 26 2012,13:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2012,00:13) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 24 2012,20:36) Yahchanan says that Father Yahweh's word was with Him and that His word had might, strength and power [yl – “god”]. The meaning of the Hebrew word 'yl' designates in our English language 'might, strength, or power.
While it is not completely clear, the best guesses of experts are that “el” referred either to “might”, or to “one to be feared (revered)”.So, I'm with you on that point. Here's my problem: It simply makes no sense to treat the words God speaks as if they are a separate being that can be WITH God.
And I know you guys try to put on a straight face while telling us that our words are WITH us, and ARE us, but you are simply pretending this makes sense. No one in their right mind would say, “John went to the store today, and his words went WITH him”.
Nor do you have a way to address the fact that this particular Word of God BECAME flesh at one point. And not only did it BECOME flesh, but when it did, it had the glory of the SON of God. Is a spoken word of God now His SON?
Nor do you acknowledge the scriptures that say all things were created, not ONLY through the Word of God, but also through “the Son of God” and “our Lord, Jesus Christ”.
So while all of you (except for Ed – for some odd reason) accept that it is Jesus who is called “The Word of God” in Rev 19:13, you REFUSE to make the connection that the same exact author calls the same exact person by the same exact title in his gospel and in his revelation.
And I use the word “REFUSE” because I know you all can see this connection as clear as the rest of us do. It's just that you guys have a WISH for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” (as Gene puts it), because you feel that if you can convince yourselves that Jesus was “exactly like us”, you have a better chance of following his teachings and having success like he did. And because of your personal WISH for Jesus to have been “exactly like us”, you must PRETEND that you can't see this very obvious connection.
Frank, the fact is that the Word BECAME flesh. HE did not come to “be in someone who was flesh”, like you guys imagine. HE BECAME flesh, had the glory of the Son of God that he was, and John was unfit to untie his sandals. This was all said about “The Word of God”, Frank. Does a spoken word of God wear sandals?
Anyway, to say the least, it is interesting for us to see the lengths to which you guys will go when twisting the scriptures to get them to teach what you WANT them to teach.
Mike,You say:
Quote Here's my problem: It simply makes no sense to treat the words God speaks as if they are a separate being that can be WITH God. Is this not the nonsense that you propose that we accept? Yes, this certainly is your problem, I believe. At least I had thought that this was your stance, but maybe I am mistaken!
If your word is not with you, could you please tell us who your word is with if believe that it is not with you? If your word that we are reading on this forum is not you, could you please tell us who your word is if you believe it not to be you?
I am aware that we do not speak in the same manner that Scripture is written or translated. Did not Yahshua himself speak parabolically or in an illustrative manner? Is not Scripture (Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word) as a whole written in this same manner frequently?
As for the rest of the foolishness that you are babbling on about, it is you that believes that Father Yahweh's word was an actual being that existed with Him in the beginning, right? I certainly do not believe such foolishness as this!
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
WHO IS THE WORD?
(John 1:1)
FQuote Is this not the nonsense that you propose that we accept? Yes, Quote Mike, You say:
Quote Here's my problem: It simply makes no sense to treat the words God speaks as if they are a separate being that can be WITH God. this is what you not understand,MIKE TRY TO MAKE YOU THINK ON WHAT IT IS SAID IN JOHN 1;1;IF THE WORD WAS HIS WORDS (SPEAKING )WHY WOULD THEY BE MENTION SEPARATED FROM HIM AND BEING BESIDE HIM IN THE BEGINNING ???ARE YOUR WORDS NOT PART OF YOU
YES THEY ARE ,THEY BELONG TO YOU SINS YOUR OWN ORIGIN,IN ONE WAY YOU COULD NOT HAVE WORDS BEFORE YOU WERE BORN RIGHT YES SO THE IF IN THE BEGINNING IS THE ONLY TIME THAT GOD COULD SPEAK ???NO,GOD HAS NO BEGINNING,SO HE ALWAYS COULD TALK AND HAD WORDS IN HIM,
NOW WHAT IS THEN THAT WAS CALLED “THE WORD” WHO WAS WITH HIM IN THE BEGINNINGTHERE IS ONLY ONE BEGINNING IN SCRIPTURES AND THAT IS HIS CREATION (ALL OF IT )
THIS IS WHAT PAUL IS SAYING;IN COLOSSIANS 1;14-18
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
The Supremacy of Christ
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.IS THIS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 25 2012,13:45) If your word is not with you, could you please tell us who your word is with if believe that it is not with you?
My words are not “with me”, Frank. Words are CREATED ANEW from my brain each and every moment of my life. Sometimes those words remain thoughts in my head, and other times, I speak those words through my mouth or my fingers on a keyboard. But I don't have a zillion words just hanging around “with me”.Nor are my words me myself. They are expressions of thoughts and feelings I have – but I am made of so much more than that.
Frank, it really doesn't matter how crazy you want to make yourself look by trying to rationalize something as nonsensical as your claim that Gods words were with Him and were Him, because I've seen this kind of behavior before with the Trinitarians.
Go read a couple of our Trinity threads here, Frank. Look at the arguments that these guys claim make perfect sense, when people like you and me find the very thought laughable.
Kangaroo Jack puts on his straight face when telling me that he and his own father are the SAME EXACT BEING – just so he can claim that Jesus and his Father are the same exact God.
You would read this crap and fall off your chair laughing at how serious he tries to be while claiming his nonsense.
Well, that's where I am with you guys. Even you look at Nick's asinine attempt at saying “God spoke through Jesus and said I am” as nonsense. And Nick looks at your claim that Jesus was really saying “I'm better than Abraham” or whatever as equally nonsensical. And here I sit, knowing that both of you are right about the other one's claim being nonsense.
I just wanted you to know that, Frank. You are not convincing anyone here of your “God's spoken words were with Him and were Him” crap. But many of us are falling off our chairs laughing at the “I am” war you and Nick are having.
It's like watching a contest about which one of you two can butcher scriptural context the worst while trying desparately to make yourself sound logical and sane. Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2012,14:03) Hi T,
He is the firstborn from among the DEAD.
Only the Spirit of God gives him life now.
Nand then who give him live when he was made to be in Mary womb
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 26 2012,13:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2012,05:52) Hi F,
There is no division between God and His Word.
They are one.You should not fight Jesus when he claims to speak the words of God
Nick,Where did I ever say “There is a division between God and His Word.”?
I also believe that Father Yahweh and His word are one. Father Yahweh certainly would not speak contrary to His own word that He had previously spoken, right?
I believe that Yahshua spoke the word of his and our Father Yahweh and I also believe that we should follow in his example and also speak His word, but not every word that we speak is Father Yahweh speaking through us.
FQuote Where did I ever say “There is a division between God and His Word.”? did God not tell you in scriptures
yes he did ;he said “this is my son ,john the baptist says this man was before me and he his the son of God,Paul said Jesus his the son of God ,the first of creation,Peter says he is the son of the living God,John says he is the the son of God and his name his THE WORD OF GOD,is the son God no ,is he with God yes,does he love his God ? yes ? are the one in spirit ?? yes but the son is submissive to the father not equal ,the son always find pleasure in doing his fathers will,this is being one with God and this we all can attain.
Hi T,
God was the father of Jesus and Mary his mother.
Only by the Holy Spirit did he have one Parent.Unless you prefer the catholic derivation that Mary is the mother of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2012,14:37) Hi T,
God was the father of Jesus and Mary his mother.
Only by the Holy Spirit did he have one Parent.Unless you prefer the catholic derivation that Mary is the mother of God.
Nyou talking to the wrong guy,
you said thing about Christ I send you questions then you not only answer the questions but you change the topic related to my question by inventing things that has not come to my mind at all ,are you try to be deceitful??
Quote Hi T,
He is the firstborn from among the DEAD.
Only the Spirit of God gives him life now.My question was ;and then who give him live when he was made to be in Mary womb
and you answered me ;the above.
He was born by the same spirit that give him his live back and the same spirit that created him before all of creation.scriptures say so
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2012,06:58) Frank, What about all the “coincidences” in my last post to you?
Don't you find it at least interesting that John called a person “The Word of God” in Rev 19:13, and then he called someone by that same exact title in John 1:1 and 1:14?
Doesn't it seem probable that since this “Word of God” became flesh and had the glory of God's only begotten Son – someone we all know is Jesus – that John was talking about Jesus all along?
Doesn't it seem convincing to you that all things in heaven and on earth are said to have been made through:
1. The Word of God
2. The Son of God
3. Our Lord, Jesus Christ?I just can't believe that you guys would let your personal WISH for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” cause you to pretend so many clear “clues” mean something oddball and bizarre – instead of meaning exactly what they say.
Frank, the one you call your Lord said, “I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN“. Why won't you believe him?
Mike,Nowhere in Scripture will you ever find Yahchanan recorded as literally personally addressing Yahshua by calling him “The Word of Yahweh”, but what you will find him recorded as instructed to write and what he had seen is …
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a title written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his title is The Word of Yahweh (Revelation 19:11-13.
Yahchanan here does not literally personally address Yahshua by calling him “The Word of Yahweh”, but in fact is simply giving a description and writing of what he had seen in a vision and in accordance with the context is writing as the messenger (malak) had instructed him to write (verse 9).
Yahchanan also does not call “SOMEONE by that same exact title” in Yahchanan 1:1 & 14. Yahchanan here is simply giving reference to Father Yahweh's word that was with Him and was Him in the beginning. There is not one mention of the title “The Word of Yahweh” given to “SOMEONE” in this part of Yahchanan's writing.
I believe that Father Yahweh's word became flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua who was flesh, and not that an actual being became flesh that pre-existed with Father Yahweh in the beginning. I believe that Yahshua is our advocate, intercessor, mediator with Father Yahweh and that he is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period.
FYI, I have never called nor have you ever seen me address anyone personally in this forum as “My Lord”.
Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
By Voy Wilks
1990 – Revised 1993Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 26 2012,07:28) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 26 2012,13:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2012,05:52) Hi F,
There is no division between God and His Word.
They are one.You should not fight Jesus when he claims to speak the words of God
Nick,Where did I ever say “There is a division between God and His Word.”?
I also believe that Father Yahweh and His word are one. Father Yahweh certainly would not speak contrary to His own word that He had previously spoken, right?
I believe that Yahshua spoke the word of his and our Father Yahweh and I also believe that we should follow in his example and also speak His word, but not every word that we speak is Father Yahweh speaking through us.
FQuote Where did I ever say “There is a division between God and His Word.”? did God not tell you in scriptures
yes he did ;he said “this is my son ,john the baptist says this man was before me and he his the son of God,Paul said Jesus his the son of God ,the first of creation,Peter says he is the son of the living God,John says he is the the son of God and his name his THE WORD OF GOD,is the son God no ,is he with God yes,does he love his God ? yes ? are the one in spirit ?? yes but the son is submissive to the father not equal ,the son always find pleasure in doing his fathers will,this is being one with God and this we all can attain.
terraricca,And yet you still have not shown me where in any of my post where I have ever said “There is a division between God and His Word.”
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 26 2012,07:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2012,14:37) Hi T,
God was the father of Jesus and Mary his mother.
Only by the Holy Spirit did he have one Parent.Unless you prefer the catholic derivation that Mary is the mother of God.
Nyou talking to the wrong guy,
you said thing about Christ I send you questions then you not only answer the questions but you change the topic related to my question by inventing things that has not come to my mind at all ,are you try to be deceitful??
Quote Hi T,
He is the firstborn from among the DEAD.
Only the Spirit of God gives him life now.My question was ;and then who give him live when he was made to be in Mary womb
and you answered me ;the above.
He was born by the same spirit that give him his live back and the same spirit that created him before all of creation.scriptures say so
Hi T,
He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in his mother Mary.Only at the Jordan was he born from above solely by God's Spirit.
We follow him being reborn SOLELY of the Spirit
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2012,10:03) Hi T,
He is the firstborn from among the DEAD.
Only the Spirit of God gives him life now.
John 5:25-29
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2012,12:41) Hi T8, Are you suggesting Jesus was claiming that he proceeded Abraham
(as in a timeline), or that he took precedence over Abraham or both?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
My post was simply pointing out (at this stage) that Jesus said, “before Abraham I am”. In other words, this was not the Father speaking through Jesus making reference to himself (the Father).Additionally to that post, I am = I exist.
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