Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2012,06:50)

Hi t8, Neither of us believes that Jesus was a mere shell . But do you concede that God, Who was in him, spoke through him?

Nick in the context it is quite clear that it is Jesus speaking and speaking about himself.

Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and was talking about himself. e.g., “I am the bread of life”. If this was the Father speaking directly through him, then the Father is the bread of life.

Here is the context and the whole time he is speaking about himself because the Jews are talking about him and they are not questioning God's existence. Besides breaking the context, why would God say that he exists (I am) to those who already know that he exists? Not to mention it would be confusing because if it was all about Jesus except for the last part, then how is anyone to know that?

Read it for yourself. It is a dispute over who Jesus is and Jesus is talking about himself the whole time and makes reference to the Father, (the other witness) from time to time.

Dispute over who Jesus is

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

  “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[b]”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

  “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

  “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Jesus’ Claims About Himself

48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
  49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

  58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Everyone present already knew that God existed before Abraham. That was never in question. The offence was there because Jesus was talking about himself when he said, “before Abraham, I am”.

[terraricca]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2012,18:55)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2012,17:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2012,13:37) Hi T, So all these were of his own human nature? Why would you demean the work of God? Acts 10.38 “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and power;who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil; for God was with him” Nick was this not after his resurrection ? Nick [/QUOTE]Hi T, No he went about doing good and healing after the Jordan.[QUOTE] sorry nick but Act 10;38 is after the resurrection of Christ

N

sorry ,you right ,I did not know what happen but yes you right ,

but it was a question,

[Ed J]

Hi T8,

Are you suggesting Jesus was claiming that he proceeded Abraham
(as in a timeline), or that he took precedence over Abraham or both?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 25 2012,09:26)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2012,18:55) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2012,17:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2012,13:37) Hi T, So all these were of his own human nature? Why would you demean the work of God? Acts 10.38 “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and power;who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil; for God was with him” Nick was this not after his resurrection ? Nick Hi T, No he went about doing good and healing after the Jordan. Quote sorry nick but Act 10;38 is after the resurrection of Christ N sorry ,you right ,I did not know what happen but yes you right , but it was a question,

The following is certainly not a question, but is quite clearly you making an erroneous statement of disagreement to Nick's response to your question.

“sorry nick but Act 10;38 is after the resurrection of Christ”

[Ed J]

Hi Pierre,

Are you suggesting that Acts 10:38 is referring to 'after'(?) Jesus' resurrection?

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the HolySpirit and with power: who
went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Hi Frank,

Glad to see you're back!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

[Frank4YAHWEH]

When Yahshua said “Before Abraham was, I am.” he was speaking of his preeminence to Abraham, not that he existed before Abraham existed.

What did Yahshua mean when he said:

“Before Abraham Was, I Am.”?

[NickHassan]

Hi FRank,
Yes men have their theories .
But God IS

Before anything.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2012,10:47)

Hi FRank, Yes men have their theories . But God IS Before anything.

Nick,

Yes, Father Yahweh most certainly is before anything but, Yahshua referred to himself as “I am” just as anyone else refers to themselves as “I am”. This “I am” that Yahshua spoke was not Father Yahweh [“God”] speaking through His son Yahshua on behalf of Himself as “The Great I Am” as I believe you are proposing, but was Yahshua simply giving reference to himself.

What did Yahshua mean when he said:

“Before Abraham Was, I Am.”?

[Ed J]

Shalom Frank,

Hebrew has no such phraseology as 'i am'; I thought you knew this?

B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2012,11:09)

Shalom Frank, Hebrew has no such phraseology as 'i am'; I thought you knew this? B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā) עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)

Ed J,

And where is it I have ever said 'Hebrew has a phraseology 'i am.''?

[NickHassan]

HI FRANK,
Jesus has no prehistory but the anointing of Jesus Christ has.
God spoke through the vessel-the Word

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2012,11:38)

HI FRANK, Jesus has no prehistory but the anointing of Jesus Christ has. God spoke through the vessel-the Word

Nick,

Could you please explain to me in depth what you mean when you say “Jesus has no prehistory …”?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 24 2012,15:48)

Mike, So, you believe that Father Yahweh's word is a “who” as a separate being that exist apart from Him, but with Him? Now, who do you say that is confused here?

You and Nick are the confused ones, Frank – to answer your question.

Yes, the Word of God is and was a separate being who was WITH his God in the beginning.  After creating him as the first of His works, God then created all other things through him.

[Ed J]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 25 2012,11:16)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2012,11:09) Shalom Frank, Hebrew has no such phraseology as 'i am'; I thought you knew this? B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā) עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34) Ed J, And where is it I have ever said 'Hebrew has a phraseology 'i am.''?

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 25 2012,11:02)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2012,10:47) Hi FRank, Yes men have their theories . But God IS Before anything. Nick, Yes, Father Yahweh most certainly is before anything but, Yahshua referred to himself as “I am” just as anyone else refers to themselves as “I am”. This “I am” that Yahshua spoke was not Father Yahweh [“God”] speaking through His son Yahshua on behalf of Himself as “The Great I Am” as I believe you are proposing, but was Yahshua simply giving reference to himself. What did Yahshua mean when he said: “Before Abraham Was, I Am.”?

Hi Frank,

I have enlarged the part of your post where you infer this.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2012,11:38)

HI FRANK, Jesus has no prehistory but the anointing of Jesus Christ has. God spoke through the vessel-the Word

Nick,

Could you also explain to me in depth why you refer to Father Yahweh's word as “vessel” in accordance with the English meaning of this word? Following is the dictionary definition of the word 'vessel' for your consideration:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vessel

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2012,15:31)

Hi MB, Scripture says “the Word WAS God” Argue with scripture if you must.

No Nick,

The Greek could say “the Word was God” – as in “THE God”.  Or the Greek could say “the Word was a god” – as in a mighty being who was with “THE God” in the beginning.

Now, John only calls one of them “THE God”, which leans toward the other being “a god”, but not “THE God”.

And John says that one was WITH the other, which is enough to tilt the scales past the point of no return.  “THE God” cannot possibly have been WITH “THE God”.

Anyone who cannot see this fact, which makes “the Word was God” an IMPOSSIBLE translation of 1:1 – due to the context – has been blinded by the god of this world – (who is yet ANOTHER god who was WITH “THE God” long before the world began).

It is you who argues with scripture all the time, Nick.  I've showed you scriptures that clearly say that Jesus was BORN Lord, Christ, Savior, and King of the Jews, yet, as is your custom, you argue with those scriptures as well.  It has become your “M-O” around HN.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2012,11:47)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 25 2012,11:16) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2012,11:09) Shalom Frank, Hebrew has no such phraseology as 'i am'; I thought you knew this? B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā) עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34) Ed J, And where is it I have ever said 'Hebrew has a phraseology 'i am.''? Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 25 2012,11:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2012,10:47) Hi FRank, Yes men have their theories . But God IS Before anything. Nick, Yes, Father Yahweh most certainly is before anything but, Yahshua referred to himself as “I am” just as anyone else refers to themselves as “I am”. This “I am” that Yahshua spoke was not Father Yahweh [“God”] speaking through His son Yahshua on behalf of Himself as “The Great I Am” as I believe you are proposing, but was Yahshua simply giving reference to himself. What did Yahshua mean when he said: “Before Abraham Was, I Am.”? Hi Frank, I have enlarged the part of your post where you infer this. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J,

I have not even mentioned anything about the Hebrew language in this post and as you will also note I have never said 'Hebrew has a phraseology 'i am.'' I asked you to show me where I have ever said this and you have yet to present such a statement where I have said this.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 24 2012,16:10)

Everyone present already knew that God existed before Abraham. That was never in question.

Exactly, t8.

As if the Jews were supposed to know it was God Himself speaking through a vessel for one thing. And even if they knew that, what kind of statement would it be for God Himself to say He existed before Abraham did? Duh! Of course they all knew that already.

[Ed J]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 25 2012,11:56)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2012,11:47) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 25 2012,11:16) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2012,11:09) Shalom Frank, Hebrew has no such phraseology as 'i am'; I thought you knew this? B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā) עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34) Ed J, And where is it I have ever said 'Hebrew has a phraseology 'i am.''? Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 25 2012,11:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2012,10:47) Hi FRank, Yes men have their theories . But God IS Before anything. Nick, Yes, Father Yahweh most certainly is before anything but, Yahshua referred to himself as “I am” just as anyone else refers to themselves as “I am”. This “I am” that Yahshua spoke was not Father Yahweh [“God”] speaking through His son Yahshua on behalf of Himself as “The Great I Am” as I believe you are proposing, but was Yahshua simply giving reference to himself. What did Yahshua mean when he said: “Before Abraham Was, I Am.”? Hi Frank, I have enlarged the part of your post where you infer this. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed J, I have not even mentioned anything about the Hebrew language in this post and as you will also note I have never said 'Hebrew has a phraseology 'i am.'' I asked you to show me where I have ever said this and you have yet to present such a statement where I have said this.

Hi Frank,

What is:  'the great i am'?    …I know of NO SUCH BEING   …do you?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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