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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2012,19:02) Hi MB,
Do you regard this as some sort of carnal competition??
Wouldn't you rather be speaking scripturally, Nick? If you are attempting to teach here, and I notice that what you're teaching doesn't align with the scriptures, should I remain silent?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2012,07:44) Hi mB,
At least three times scripture tells us he was a man./
EG acts 2.22-23
Nick,Yes, this is quite true! Even Yahshua himself proclaimed to be a man (Yahchanan [John] 8:40).
To ALL,
Many base their belief on the erroneous Trinitarian concept (“Delusion”) that Yahshua had a pre-existence as an actual being in the beginning with his and our Father Yahweh and was a creator or a co-creator with Him in the beginning by the mere words 'by' and 'through' which are translations of the Greek words 'dia', 'en' and 'eis'. They do this while ignoring some 107 Scripture verses and passages that clearly proclaim that Father Yahweh “ALONE” and “BY HIMSELF” created the heavens and the earth AND ALL THINGS IN THEM and that there was “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” in His creating the heavens and the earth AND ALL THINGS IN THEM. Should we ignore some 107 verses and passages in Scripture that clearly proclaim that Father Yahweh “ALONE” and “BY HIMSELF” created the heavens and the earth AND ALL THINGS IN THEM and that there was “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” in His creating the heavens and the earth AND ALL THINGS IN THEM for a FEW Greek words improperly translated in accordance with the context of Scripture as a whole? I think not! The fact is, NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER proclaim that Yahshua created ANYTHING, nor does Yahshua EVER proclaim that he EVER created ANYTHING. In fact, Yahshua clearly proclaims and he is clearly recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as proclaiming that his and our Father Yahweh is the Creator.
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
Trinitarian Delusion
Jesus is the Creator?
By the word of YHWH the heavens were made, and all their host by the breath of his mouth. (Psalm 33:6).
Trinitarian Claim
Trinitarians claim that that the Bible indicates Jesus is the Creator.
Examination of the Claim
The Bible never ever states that Jesus created anything. But it does say that God created through, or by means of, his Word and that Word became flesh, that is, [in the person of] Jesus. Because God created through His Word, just as we see in Genesis chapter 1, and that Word did become flesh, anyone could thereafter say about Jesus that all things were created through Jesus since that Word by which God created had now become that flesh named Jesus.
Let us examine the passages which Trinitarians mistranslate and/or misinterpret to promote the idea that Jesus is the Creator followed by a literal translation of what the Greek really says.
1. John 1:3
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (KJV).
The same was in the beginning with God. All things came to exist through (dia) the same and without the same not one thing came to exist that exists.
2. 1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (KJV)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, out of whom are all things, and we of him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through (dia) whom are all things, and we through (dia) him.
3. Ephesians
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. (KJV)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things through (dia) Jesus Christ. (some manuscripts also do not contain the phrase “through Jesus Christ” at all).
4. Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.(KJV).
For in (en) him all things were created, things in heaven and upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and unto1 (eis) him. And he is before all things, and in (en) him all things subsist.
5. Hebrews 1:2
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. (KJV)
God, who in many places and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers in (en) the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us in (en) a Son, whom he set heir of all things, through (dia) whom also he made the ages.
The Greek Pronouns: A Look at the Terms
Houtos was in the beginning with God. All things came to exist through autos and without autos not one thing came to exist that exists.
At John 1:2, Trinitarian translations say, “He was in the beginning.” The pronoun translated as “He” is the Greek word houtos. The very same word is translated as “this” at 1 John 5:20. At John 1:3, Trinitarian translations indicate all things were made through “him.” The pronoun translated as “him” is the related Greek word autos. Both of these two Greek words essentially function like the English word “this.” Just as we use the English word “this” to refer to both persons and inanimate obejects, but the word “this” does not itself tell us whether we are referring to a person or an inanimate object, the Greek words houtos and autos do not by themselves tell us whether a person is in view. They are simply Greek words which refer back to the subject in question without indicating whether the subject is a person on an inanimate object.
The Greek words houtos and autos do not mean “He” or “Him.” They do not mean “it” either. These two words essentially mean “the subject under discussion” in the same sense we use the English word “this.” In English we refer to persons as “He” or “Him” and when an inanimate object is in view we do not refer to this object as a “He” or “Him” but an “IT.” We use different words to refer to a person than we use to refer to an inanimate object. In Greek, they did not use different words like English speakers do but used the SAME word houtos to refer to both a “He” or an “It” and they likewise used the SAME word autos to refer to both a “Him” or an “It.” The following illustrates how the Greeks used this word:
The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build houtos temple, and will You raise autos up in three days?” The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build THIS temple, and will You raise IT up in three days?”
All these two Greek words do is refer back to the antecedent, the subject under discussion, and they do this without telling us whether a person is in view or an animate object is in view. The reason that Trinitarians translate these two words as “He” and “Him” is not because of the Greek grammar but because they eisegetically assume that “the Word” of John 1:1 is indeed a person.
Greek Prepositions: A Look at the Terms
The Greek word en never means “by.” It is a word which indicates positional location. The Greek word eis is a word which indicates directional motion toward a place or condition. It is simply dishonest to translate the Greek word en (“in”), or the Greek word eis (“to/into/unto”), with the English word “by.” And the Greek word dia (“through”), translated as “by” is also misleading because the English word “by” can be defined in a way which the Greek word is not. The Greek word simply does not indicate a cause but a means. If we used the English word “by” to translate dia it must be clearly understood that it intends to convey “by means of.” The following illustrates the meaning:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god/deity. This was in the beginning with God. All things came to be by means of this and without this was not any thing made that was made.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, out of whom are all things, and we of him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by means of whom are all things, and we by means of him.
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by means of Jesus Christ. (KJV)
For in him all things were created, things in heaven and upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things were created by means of him and unto him. And he is before all things, and in him all things subsist.
God, who in many places and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers in the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us in a Son, whom he set heir of all things, by means of whom also he made the ages.
Why we can say that all things were created through Jesus
God created all things through His spoken Word, “By the word of YHWH the heavens were made, and all their host by the breath of his mouth.” (Psalm 33:6). That Word became flesh. Once that Word became flesh, and thereafter, whatever was true of the Word which God spoke to create all things, was now true of that flesh named Jesus. Henceforth and thereafter one could only then say that all things were created through Jesus, that is, through that man Jesus. For this reason also, John calls Jesus “the beginning of the creation of God.” All things began at God's Word; the Word God spoke was ground zero of creation, the PLACE creation began. Since that Word became the flesh named Jesus, it could then be said, henceforth and thereafter, that Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, that man was the place where creation began.
Conclusion
When one appreciates the facts, it is plainly evident that the Bible never indicates Jesus created all things and the Trinitarian claim is groundless and false.
The beginning of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14).
Last Updated: March 18, 2011
Notes:
1. To translate the word eis as “for” is possible here at Colossians 1:16. This Greek word means “in the direction of” and is often translated as “for” when a condition is implied, that is, when something is done “in the direction of” arriving at a condition, we can translate it is “for” as long as it does not mislead the reader and it is clearly understood that it means “for the purpose of” and not be misconstrued as a synonym for the English word “because.” This is the word often translated as “unto” in the KJV and one could say that people do things “unto” a condition, that is, toward that end, or “for” that purpose. However, here I think it misleads the reader since it seems to imply that everything was created “for” Jesus in the sense that it was all done for him for some reason or another. However, Paul seems to have the idea that all creation is “to” him or “unto” him in the sense that all creation pertains to him since he is the Word by which God created the cosmos and all things pertain to that Word.
Who is the Creator?
A verse of Scripture that is often used by people to teach about the Sacred Name is Prov.30:4, “Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou can tell?” Besides teaching us that the Creator has a name, this verse also teaches us that the Creator is not His son. The Creator has “established all the ends of the earth,” not the son. This is in direct contradiction to those who teach that Yahshua the Messiah, the Son, is the Creator.
Let's find out exactly who this Creator is. The very first verse of the Bible tells us, “In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth.” Since “Elohim” is a title that does not clearly identify the Creator, we need more information. Gen.2:4 reads, “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh Elohim made the earth and the heavens.” It is quite clear that the Elohim of Gen. 1:1 is Yahweh, and He is the Creator.
Some may argue that the title “elohim” is plural, suggesting that Yahweh had assistance in creating and that His assistant was His Son Yahshua. They will also refer to Gen.1:26 to support their belief in a plurality of Creators. Can this be justified? In the Hebrew of Gen.1:1, the verb “created” is singular, therefore, for the verb and noun to be in agreement, “Elohim” must also be singular. Indeed, as the Hebrew shows throughout the Bible, Elohim can be either singular or plural based on the context. For example, the woman in Endor who had a familiar spirit said to Saul, “I have seen an elohim coming up out of the earth” (1 Samuel 28:13). When Saul asked what he looked like, she said, “An old man is coming up . . .” (vs. 14). Can it be said that this apparition of Samuel is a plurality?
As Gesenius, the father of Hebrew grammarians, has said, when Elohim is applied to Yahweh, or any single deity, it is the plural of excellence or majesty, not a plural of beings. The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament concurs. It says, “The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of God. This is seen in the fact that the noun elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular.”
As for Gen.1:26, “And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth,” it is pure assumption that “us” refers to Yahweh and Yahshua. In fact, verse 27 shows that only one person did the actual creating. “So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them. The use of “us” in verse 26 is to be understood in the same sense as a group of people sitting in a dark room where one person says, “Let's turn on the lights,” but only one person actually flips the switch.
Consider Is.42:5, “Thus saith Elohim Yahweh, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; He that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein.” It does not say, “They that created the heavens, . . .”
Yahweh himself declares that He is the Creator in Is. 45:12; “I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.” Verse 18 reads, “For thus saith Yahweh that created the heavens; Elohim Himself that formed the earth and made it; He has established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am Yahweh; and there is none else.” For some reason people refuse to believe Yahweh created all things by Himself. They insist on exalting His Son as a co-Creator of sorts.
Again we read, “Thus saith Yahweh, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am Yahweh that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” (Is.44:24). See also; Job 9:1, 7-9.
Even the Son himself declares that he is not the Creator. In Mk.10:6 he says, “But from the beginning of the creation [Yahweh] made them male and female.” Notice Yahshua didn't say, “I made them . . .” See also Mk.13:19.
The book of The Revelation comes to us from Yahshua. It, too, declares that Yahweh is Creator. Rev.4:10,11 reads, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne [Yahweh], and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O [Yahweh], to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” Then, Rev.5:6-7 says, “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of [Yahweh] sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.” Notice that the Lamb, Yahshua, takes the book from Yahweh who sits on the throne. We just saw, in Rev.4:10-11, that the one who sits on the throne is the Creator. Therefore, the one who takes the book from the Creator cannot also be the Creator.
One other reference worthy of mention is found in Acts 17:22-31. The Apostle Paul was declaring the “Unknown Elohim” to the men of Athens. Verse 24 reads, “[Yahweh] that made the world and all things therein,. . .” He then continues to declare Yahweh unto them and in verse 31 says, “Because He [Yahweh] has appointed a day, in which He will judge in righteousness by that man [Yahshua] whom He has ordained.” The Apostle declared that the Creator and the ordained judge are two different people. The ordained judge is not “The Unknown Elohim” who created all things.
There are several reasons for the confusion concerning who created all things; poor translations, poor exegesis, and added words in the KJV that are not found in the Greek text. There are three main references that need clarification beginning with Eph. 3:9;
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in [Yahweh], who created all things by Jesus Christ:” KJV. The oldest Greek manuscripts do not have the words “by Jesus Christ” which would lead one to believe that he was involved in creation. The NIV, among others, correctly omits this phrase.
The second reference is Jn.1:1-5; “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” KJV. Aside from the obvious problems of how to translate “God”, we have a problem of how to understand “the Word”. Since verse 14 says, “And the Word was made flesh,” and since Rev.19:13 says Yahshua will be called “The Word of Yahweh,” the translators imposed their own understanding into the translation. They understood the Word to refer to Yahshua thereby having to translate the Greek “autou” as “him”.
According to Strong's Greek Dictionary, “Word” is a translation of the Greek word “logos” meaning, “something said (including the thought).” It refers to Yahweh's spoken word, not to a person who is called “the Word.” Yahweh's word is an “it”, not a “him”. Verse 3 should read, “All things were made through it; and without it was not anything made that was made.” That is how it is translated in the Emphatic Diaglott as well as most English Bibles prior to the KJV. For more info on this, please read the stu
dy entitled, “The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4“.To understand how “the Word” can refer to Yahweh's spoken word, we need to read Ps.33:6; “By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.” Couple that verse with the Genesis account of creation, as in Gen.1:3, “And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light.” It becomes clear that Yahweh spoke creation into existence. Gen.1:24, “And Elohim said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.” Yahweh commanded and it came to be. Yahshua did not create anything.
Eventually, Yahweh spoke Yahshua into existence. His word became a living seed in Miriam's womb. His word was made flesh. It was only then that Yahshua could be called “The Word of Yahweh.” Prior to Miriam's conception Yahshua was not “the Word.”
The final verse used to “prove” that Yahshua is the Creator is Col.1:16,17; “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” The problem, once again, lies in erroneous translation based on the translator's preconceived ideas. Since the translators understood Yahshua to be the eternal “Word” and a member of the “Holy Trinity”, they assumed he had a hand in creation. So they translated the Greek word “en” as “by” in verse 16a and 17, instead of “in” which is correct. This can be seen more clearly in Eph 2:10; “For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yahshua unto good works, which Yahweh hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” This verse teaches that Yahweh created “in” Yahshua, not “by” Yahshua.
They also translated the Greek word “dia” as “by” in verse 16b, instead of “through”. All things were created by Yahweh through Yahshua and for Yahshua.
In verse 17, the word “before” is a translation of the Greek word “pro”. It can mean “before” concerning place, time, or superiority. As in Ja.5:12 and 1 Pe.4:8, “pro” should have been translated “above” or “superior to”. Yahshua is above all things; he did not exist before all things.
The same erroneous translation of “dia” is found in Heb.1:2; “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he [Yahweh] hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he [Yahweh] made the worlds;” It should read, “through whom also He made the worlds.” Yahweh created everything through Yahshua, through the Lamb slain before the foundation of the worlds.
When Yahweh created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world needed a venue or a stage, so to speak, for that to be fulfilled. Therefore, the impetus for creation was the Son. Without the Son in Yahweh's mind there would be no creation. It was done “through” the Son. At the same time, Yahweh created everything “for” His Son. It was part of His plan to give all power and authority to His Son so that he would rule the entire Kingdom forever.
The teachings of the Holy Scriptures are very clear once we understand the erroneous translations of Trinitarian translators who imposed their preconceived ideas into scripture. Yahweh's prophet, Malachi, said, “Have we not all one father? hath not one Elohim created us?” (Mal.2:10a). Yes, one Elohim created us and His name is Yahweh. He did not have any help nor did He need any. To exalt Yahshua the Messiah to the position of Creator is to “worship and serve the creature more than the Creator” as the Apostle Paul taught in Rom.1:25.
Yahweh is the Creator and to Him be the glory for the great work He has done. Yahshua the Messiah is also worthy of much glory and praise for the great work he has done, but only where glory and praise is due. He is not to be glorified as our Creator or as Yahweh our Heavenly Father.
SOURCEQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 12 2012,07:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2012,07:44) Hi mB,
At least three times scripture tells us he was a man./
EG acts 2.22-23
Nick,Yes, this is quite true! Even Yahshua himself proclaimed to be a man (Yahchanan [John] 8:40).
Yahshua also frequently used the expression “son of man” in reference to himself as a human being or a man.Hi FFY,
“When Yahweh created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world “Compare other bibles and the verses rev 13.8 and rev 17.8
This version above wrongly interpreted ascribes the death of the lamb to the time, but it should relate to the writing of the names in the book
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 11 2012,15:08) Mike………..Why did Jesus say “WHEN THE “SON OF MAN” RETURNS WILL HE FIND FAITH ON THE EARTH”, IF HE WAS NO LONGER A SON OF MAN . There is more scripture also that deal with him as son of man returning. If you want i can look them up. peace and love……………………………………………..gene
When Yahshua came out of the grave it was as a man. He even had the disciples touch him to verify that he was a physical being, not a spirit (Lukyah 24:39).And in Revelation 5:6 Yahchanan reported seeing a Lamb “as it had been slain” standing at the Throne of Yahweh in Heaven. Scholars identify the Lamb as Yahshua, and interpret the phrase “as it had been slain” to mean that our Master Yahshua was still in the form he was in when he died, the form of a man.
1 Timothy 2:5 says that our mediator is (not was) “the man Yahshua Messiah.”
For there is one Yahweh, and one mediator between Yahweh and men, the man Yahshua Messiah; Who gave himself a ransom for all, this to be a testimony at the proper time (1 Timothy 2:5-6).
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2012,11:00) Hi FFY,
“When Yahweh created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world “Compare other bibles and the verses rev 13.8 and rev 17.8
This version above wrongly interpreted ascribes the death of the lamb to the time, but it should relate to the writing of the names in the book
Nick,I am not sure to what version you are giving reference to when you say “This version above wrongly interpreted ascribes the death of the lamb to the time, but it should relate to the writing of the names in the book.”, but I agree that Yahshua was not slain from the foundation of the world.
Yahshua's Glory Before the Foundation of the World
Does This Mean He Pre-existed?
By Voy Wilks
2/4/89Nick,
To my recollection, when I had a discussion with you here in this forum long ago, you were in disagreement with what it is that I believe, but now it seems that you are in agreement with me for the most part. Have you changed you view since I was here long ago? As I remember, in my last discussion with you long ago you were pointing out the Greek word 'monogenes' (only begotten) showing how Yahshua was 'unique' from other men. It seemed that back then when you were pointing this word out that you believed then that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and was the creator or a co-creator with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning. I could be wrong and maybe it is your avatar image that I am associating with, but your moniker (or name) seems to match with the avatar also. Do you remember me coming here long ago expressing my belief that Yahshua did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being and was not a creator or a co-creator with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning?
Hi Ffy,
Yes my views have changed.
The Spirit has taken away the old and given new light.But I was stubborn and it took a long time
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2012,13:11) Hi Ffy,
Yes my views have changed.
The Spirit has taken away the old and given new light.But I was stubborn and it took a long time
Nick,ALL praise be to Father Yahweh for that! Reproof and correction in accordance with Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word is what it is all about so that we do not become fools.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 12 2012,11:57) Who is the Creator? A verse of Scripture that is often used by people to teach about the Sacred Name is Prov.30:4, “Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou can tell?” Besides teaching us that the Creator has a name, this verse also teaches us that the Creator is not His son. The Creator has “established all the ends of the earth,” not the son. This is in direct contradiction to those who teach that Yahshua the Messiah, the Son, is the Creator.
Let's find out exactly who this Creator is. The very first verse of the Bible tells us, “In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth.” Since “Elohim” is a title that does not clearly identify the Creator, we need more information. Gen.2:4 reads, “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh Elohim made the earth and the heavens.” It is quite clear that the Elohim of Gen. 1:1 is Yahweh, and He is the Creator.
Some may argue that the title “elohim” is plural, suggesting that Yahweh had assistance in creating and that His assistant was His Son Yahshua. They will also refer to Gen.1:26 to support their belief in a plurality of Creators. Can this be justified? In the Hebrew of Gen.1:1, the verb “created” is singular, therefore, for the verb and noun to be in agreement, “Elohim” must also be singular. Indeed, as the Hebrew shows throughout the Bible, Elohim can be either singular or plural based on the context. For example, the woman in Endor who had a familiar spirit said to Saul, “I have seen an elohim coming up out of the earth” (1 Samuel 28:13). When Saul asked what he looked like, she said, “An old man is coming up . . .” (vs. 14). Can it be said that this apparition of Samuel is a plurality?
As Gesenius, the father of Hebrew grammarians, has said, when Elohim is applied to Yahweh, or any single deity, it is the plural of excellence or majesty, not a plural of beings. The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament concurs. It says, “The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of God. This is seen in the fact that the noun elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular.”
As for Gen.1:26, “And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth,” it is pure assumption that “us” refers to Yahweh and Yahshua. In fact, verse 27 shows that only one person did the actual creating. “So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them. The use of “us” in verse 26 is to be understood in the same sense as a group of people sitting in a dark room where one person says, “Let's turn on the lights,” but only one person actually flips the switch.
Consider Is.42:5, “Thus saith Elohim Yahweh, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; He that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein.” It does not say, “They that created the heavens, . . .”
Yahweh himself declares that He is the Creator in Is. 45:12; “I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.” Verse 18 reads, “For thus saith Yahweh that created the heavens; Elohim Himself that formed the earth and made it; He has established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am Yahweh; and there is none else.” For some reason people refuse to believe Yahweh created all things by Himself. They insist on exalting His Son as a co-Creator of sorts.
Again we read, “Thus saith Yahweh, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am Yahweh that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” (Is.44:24). See also; Job 9:1, 7-9.
Even the Son himself declares that he is not the Creator. In Mk.10:6 he says, “But from the beginning of the creation [Yahweh] made them male and female.” Notice Yahshua didn't say, “I made them . . .” See also Mk.13:19.
The book of The Revelation comes to us from Yahshua. It, too, declares that Yahweh is Creator. Rev.4:10,11 reads, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne [Yahweh], and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O [Yahweh], to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” Then, Rev.5:6-7 says, “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of [Yahweh] sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.” Notice that the Lamb, Yahshua, takes the book from Yahweh who sits on the throne. We just saw, in Rev.4:10-11, that the one who sits on the throne is the Creator. Therefore, the one who takes the book from the Creator cannot also be the Creator.
One other reference worthy of mention is found in Acts 17:22-31. The Apostle Paul was declaring the “Unknown Elohim” to the men of Athens. Verse 24 reads, “[Yahweh] that made the world and all things therein,. . .” He then continues to declare Yahweh unto them and in verse 31 says, “Because He [Yahweh] has appointed a day, in which He will judge in righteousness by that man [Yahshua] whom He has ordained.” The Apostle declared that the Creator and the ordained judge are two different people. The ordained judge is not “The Unknown Elohim” who created all things.
There are several reasons for the confusion concerning who created all things; poor translations, poor exegesis, and added words in the KJV that are not found in the Greek text. There are three main references that need clarification beginning with Eph. 3:9;
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in [Yahweh], who created all things by Jesus Christ:” KJV. The oldest Greek manuscripts do not have the words “by Jesus Christ” which would lead one to believe that he was involved in creation. The NIV, among others, correctly omits this phrase.
The second reference is Jn.1:1-5; “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” KJV. Aside from the obvious problems of how to translate “God”, we have a problem of how to understand “the Word”. Since verse 14 says, “And the Word was made flesh,” and since Rev.19:13 says Yahshua will be called “The Word of Yahweh,” the translators imposed their own understanding into the translation. They understood the Word to refer to Yahshua thereby having to translate the Greek “autou” as “him”.
According to Strong's Greek Dictionary, “Word” is a translation of the Greek word “logos” meaning, “something said (including the thought).” It refers to Yahweh's spoken word, not to a person who is called “the Word.” Yahweh's word is an “it”, not a “him”. Verse 3 should read, “A
ll things were made through it; and without it was not anything made that was made.” That is how it is translated in the Emphatic Diaglott as well as most English Bibles prior to the KJV. For more info on this, please read the study entitled, “The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4“.To understand how “the Word” can refer to Yahweh's spoken word, we need to read Ps.33:6; “By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.” Couple that verse with the Genesis account of creation, as in Gen.1:3, “And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light.” It becomes clear that Yahweh spoke creation into existence. Gen.1:24, “And Elohim said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.” Yahweh commanded and it came to be. Yahshua did not create anything.
Eventually, Yahweh spoke Yahshua into existence. His word became a living seed in Miriam's womb. His word was made flesh. It was only then that Yahshua could be called “The Word of Yahweh.” Prior to Miriam's conception Yahshua was not “the Word.”
The final verse used to “prove” that Yahshua is the Creator is Col.1:16,17; “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” The problem, once again, lies in erroneous translation based on the translator's preconceived ideas. Since the translators understood Yahshua to be the eternal “Word” and a member of the “Holy Trinity”, they assumed he had a hand in creation. So they translated the Greek word “en” as “by” in verse 16a and 17, instead of “in” which is correct. This can be seen more clearly in Eph 2:10; “For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yahshua unto good works, which Yahweh hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” This verse teaches that Yahweh created “in” Yahshua, not “by” Yahshua.
They also translated the Greek word “dia” as “by” in verse 16b, instead of “through”. All things were created by Yahweh through Yahshua and for Yahshua.
In verse 17, the word “before” is a translation of the Greek word “pro”. It can mean “before” concerning place, time, or superiority. As in Ja.5:12 and 1 Pe.4:8, “pro” should have been translated “above” or “superior to”. Yahshua is above all things; he did not exist before all things.
The same erroneous translation of “dia” is found in Heb.1:2; “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he [Yahweh] hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he [Yahweh] made the worlds;” It should read, “through whom also He made the worlds.” Yahweh created everything through Yahshua, through the Lamb slain before the foundation of the worlds.
When Yahweh created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world needed a venue or a stage, so to speak, for that to be fulfilled. Therefore, the impetus for creation was the Son. Without the Son in Yahweh's mind there would be no creation. It was done “through” the Son. At the same time, Yahweh created everything “for” His Son. It was part of His plan to give all power and authority to His Son so that he would rule the entire Kingdom forever.
The teachings of the Holy Scriptures are very clear once we understand the erroneous translations of Trinitarian translators who imposed their preconceived ideas into scripture. Yahweh's prophet, Malachi, said, “Have we not all one father? hath not one Elohim created us?” (Mal.2:10a). Yes, one Elohim created us and His name is Yahweh. He did not have any help nor did He need any. To exalt Yahshua the Messiah to the position of Creator is to “worship and serve the creature more than the Creator” as the Apostle Paul taught in Rom.1:25.
Yahweh is the Creator and to Him be the glory for the great work He has done. Yahshua the Messiah is also worthy of much glory and praise for the great work he has done, but only where glory and praise is due. He is not to be glorified as our Creator or as Yahweh our Heavenly Father.
SOURCE
Hi Frank,This post is off topic here, this thread is about “Pre-existence”.
Here is a thread we can discuss the matter. (Link)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 13 2012,16:26) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 12 2012,11:57) Who is the Creator? A verse of Scripture that is often used by people to teach about the Sacred Name is Prov.30:4, “Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou can tell?” Besides teaching us that the Creator has a name, this verse also teaches us that the Creator is not His son. The Creator has “established all the ends of the earth,” not the son. This is in direct contradiction to those who teach that Yahshua the Messiah, the Son, is the Creator.
Let's find out exactly who this Creator is. The very first verse of the Bible tells us, “In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth.” Since “Elohim” is a title that does not clearly identify the Creator, we need more information. Gen.2:4 reads, “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh Elohim made the earth and the heavens.” It is quite clear that the Elohim of Gen. 1:1 is Yahweh, and He is the Creator.
Some may argue that the title “elohim” is plural, suggesting that Yahweh had assistance in creating and that His assistant was His Son Yahshua. They will also refer to Gen.1:26 to support their belief in a plurality of Creators. Can this be justified? In the Hebrew of Gen.1:1, the verb “created” is singular, therefore, for the verb and noun to be in agreement, “Elohim” must also be singular. Indeed, as the Hebrew shows throughout the Bible, Elohim can be either singular or plural based on the context. For example, the woman in Endor who had a familiar spirit said to Saul, “I have seen an elohim coming up out of the earth” (1 Samuel 28:13). When Saul asked what he looked like, she said, “An old man is coming up . . .” (vs. 14). Can it be said that this apparition of Samuel is a plurality?
As Gesenius, the father of Hebrew grammarians, has said, when Elohim is applied to Yahweh, or any single deity, it is the plural of excellence or majesty, not a plural of beings. The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament concurs. It says, “The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of God. This is seen in the fact that the noun elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular.”
As for Gen.1:26, “And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth,” it is pure assumption that “us” refers to Yahweh and Yahshua. In fact, verse 27 shows that only one person did the actual creating. “So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them. The use of “us” in verse 26 is to be understood in the same sense as a group of people sitting in a dark room where one person says, “Let's turn on the lights,” but only one person actually flips the switch.
Consider Is.42:5, “Thus saith Elohim Yahweh, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; He that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein.” It does not say, “They that created the heavens, . . .”
Yahweh himself declares that He is the Creator in Is. 45:12; “I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.” Verse 18 reads, “For thus saith Yahweh that created the heavens; Elohim Himself that formed the earth and made it; He has established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am Yahweh; and there is none else.” For some reason people refuse to believe Yahweh created all things by Himself. They insist on exalting His Son as a co-Creator of sorts.
Again we read, “Thus saith Yahweh, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am Yahweh that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” (Is.44:24). See also; Job 9:1, 7-9.
Even the Son himself declares that he is not the Creator. In Mk.10:6 he says, “But from the beginning of the creation [Yahweh] made them male and female.” Notice Yahshua didn't say, “I made them . . .” See also Mk.13:19.
The book of The Revelation comes to us from Yahshua. It, too, declares that Yahweh is Creator. Rev.4:10,11 reads, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne [Yahweh], and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O [Yahweh], to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” Then, Rev.5:6-7 says, “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of [Yahweh] sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.” Notice that the Lamb, Yahshua, takes the book from Yahweh who sits on the throne. We just saw, in Rev.4:10-11, that the one who sits on the throne is the Creator. Therefore, the one who takes the book from the Creator cannot also be the Creator.
One other reference worthy of mention is found in Acts 17:22-31. The Apostle Paul was declaring the “Unknown Elohim” to the men of Athens. Verse 24 reads, “[Yahweh] that made the world and all things therein,. . .” He then continues to declare Yahweh unto them and in verse 31 says, “Because He [Yahweh] has appointed a day, in which He will judge in righteousness by that man [Yahshua] whom He has ordained.” The Apostle declared that the Creator and the ordained judge are two different people. The ordained judge is not “The Unknown Elohim” who created all things.
There are several reasons for the confusion concerning who created all things; poor translations, poor exegesis, and added words in the KJV that are not found in the Greek text. There are three main references that need clarification beginning with Eph. 3:9;
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in [Yahweh], who created all things by Jesus Christ:” KJV. The oldest Greek manuscripts do not have the words “by Jesus Christ” which would lead one to believe that he was involved in creation. The NIV, among others, correctly omits this phrase.
The second reference is Jn.1:1-5; “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” KJV. Aside from the obvious problems of how to translate “God”, we have a problem of how to understand “the Word”. Since verse 14 says, “And the Word was made flesh,” and since Rev.19:13 says Yahshua will be called “The Word of Yahweh,” the translators imposed their own understanding into the translation. They understood the Word to refer to Yahshua thereby having to translate the Greek “autou” as “him”.
According to Strong's Greek Dictionary, “Word” is a translation of the Gre
ek word “logos” meaning, “something said (including the thought).” It refers to Yahweh's spoken word, not to a person who is called “the Word.” Yahweh's word is an “it”, not a “him”. Verse 3 should read, “All things were made through it; and without it was not anything made that was made.” That is how it is translated in the Emphatic Diaglott as well as most English Bibles prior to the KJV. For more info on this, please read the study entitled, “The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4“.To understand how “the Word” can refer to Yahweh's spoken word, we need to read Ps.33:6; “By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.” Couple that verse with the Genesis account of creation, as in Gen.1:3, “And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light.” It becomes clear that Yahweh spoke creation into existence. Gen.1:24, “And Elohim said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.” Yahweh commanded and it came to be. Yahshua did not create anything.
Eventually, Yahweh spoke Yahshua into existence. His word became a living seed in Miriam's womb. His word was made flesh. It was only then that Yahshua could be called “The Word of Yahweh.” Prior to Miriam's conception Yahshua was not “the Word.”
The final verse used to “prove” that Yahshua is the Creator is Col.1:16,17; “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” The problem, once again, lies in erroneous translation based on the translator's preconceived ideas. Since the translators understood Yahshua to be the eternal “Word” and a member of the “Holy Trinity”, they assumed he had a hand in creation. So they translated the Greek word “en” as “by” in verse 16a and 17, instead of “in” which is correct. This can be seen more clearly in Eph 2:10; “For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yahshua unto good works, which Yahweh hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” This verse teaches that Yahweh created “in” Yahshua, not “by” Yahshua.
They also translated the Greek word “dia” as “by” in verse 16b, instead of “through”. All things were created by Yahweh through Yahshua and for Yahshua.
In verse 17, the word “before” is a translation of the Greek word “pro”. It can mean “before” concerning place, time, or superiority. As in Ja.5:12 and 1 Pe.4:8, “pro” should have been translated “above” or “superior to”. Yahshua is above all things; he did not exist before all things.
The same erroneous translation of “dia” is found in Heb.1:2; “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he [Yahweh] hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he [Yahweh] made the worlds;” It should read, “through whom also He made the worlds.” Yahweh created everything through Yahshua, through the Lamb slain before the foundation of the worlds.
When Yahweh created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world needed a venue or a stage, so to speak, for that to be fulfilled. Therefore, the impetus for creation was the Son. Without the Son in Yahweh's mind there would be no creation. It was done “through” the Son. At the same time, Yahweh created everything “for” His Son. It was part of His plan to give all power and authority to His Son so that he would rule the entire Kingdom forever.
The teachings of the Holy Scriptures are very clear once we understand the erroneous translations of Trinitarian translators who imposed their preconceived ideas into scripture. Yahweh's prophet, Malachi, said, “Have we not all one father? hath not one Elohim created us?” (Mal.2:10a). Yes, one Elohim created us and His name is Yahweh. He did not have any help nor did He need any. To exalt Yahshua the Messiah to the position of Creator is to “worship and serve the creature more than the Creator” as the Apostle Paul taught in Rom.1:25.
Yahweh is the Creator and to Him be the glory for the great work He has done. Yahshua the Messiah is also worthy of much glory and praise for the great work he has done, but only where glory and praise is due. He is not to be glorified as our Creator or as Yahweh our Heavenly Father.
SOURCE
Hi Frank,This post is off topic here, this thread is about “Pre-existence”.
Here is a thread we can discuss the matter. (Link)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,No, this post is not off topic here. Many believe Yahshua pre-existed as a creator. FYI, you are not a mod or admin here and it is clear that you do not know what you are talking about and I have no desire to discuss anything with the likes of you.
Hi Frank,
You seem to be very troubled to see others disagree with you; why is that?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2012,04:29) Hi Frank, You seem to be very troubled to see others disagree with you; why is that?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,I am not troubled at all when someone disagrees with me. In fact I expect it. You seemed to be very troubled when someone puts you in your rightful place!
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 14 2012,08:48) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2012,04:29) Hi Frank, You seem to be very troubled to see others disagree with you; why is that?
God bless
Ed J
Ed J,I am not troubled at all when someone disagrees with me. In fact I expect it. You seemed to be very troubled when someone puts you in your rightful place!
Hi Frank, And what place is that, certainly not in a corner?“shall not thy teachers (Frank) be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it” (Isaiah 30:20-21)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2012,09:01) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 14 2012,08:48) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2012,04:29) Hi Frank, You seem to be very troubled to see others disagree with you; why is that?
God bless
Ed J
Ed J,I am not troubled at all when someone disagrees with me. In fact I expect it. You seemed to be very troubled when someone puts you in your rightful place!
Hi Frank, And what place is that, certainly not in a corner?“shall not thy teachers (Frank) be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it” (Isaiah 30:20-21)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,I would suggest that you heed the warning instructed in Scripture in not adding onto Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 14 2012,09:56) Ed J, I would suggest that you heed the warning instructed in Scripture in not adding onto Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word.
Hi Frank,Are you accusing me of doing that?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgGod created the cosmos through Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.We possess a will that allows us to freely believe this truth or not.
I choose to believe. Up to you what you do with it.
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