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The PATTERN I see in Romans 5 is that as ONE man brought death into the world, ONE man would bring life back in.
Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned 13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18 Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
–As one man brought sin and death, another man would bring forgiveness and life. This is the PATTERN God established to bring justice into the world after we all suffered from Adam's trespass.
Nowhere in Romans 5 do I see a pre-existent Spirit Son acting as something for Adam to follow. Adam was a type or pattern of the one who was to come. The pattern rests on the fact that God saw fit for our instruction to lead us to Him, by making the actions of two men affect all of mankind.
I Corinthians 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Reading these scriptures very carefully one should see, I believe, that verse 45, the Second Adam represents the Resurrected Jesus. Jesus was first made with a physical body and he was afterward raised with a spiritual body. As we represent the first Adam we will one day Hallelujah, represent the last Adam, the resurrected man, Jesus.
We should understand verse 47 also as such, where the first man from the earth is Adam, and the second man from heaven is the resurrected Jesus.
Thanks, Jodi. Good to hear from you again. I have a post answering one of your posts around here somewhere…..I've looked for it a million times, if I've looked for it once. But we are under construction and it may have been lost. I'll continue to search though because I worked on it for quite a while
This preexistence thread is one that is near and dear to my heart. I'm glad to see you bringing such great posts! God bless you sister.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2007,15:42) Thanks, Jodi. Good to hear from you again. I have a post answering one of your posts around here somewhere…..I've looked for it a million times, if I've looked for it once. But we are under construction and it may have been lost. I'll continue to search though because I worked on it for quite a while This preexistence thread is one that is near and dear to my heart. I'm glad to see you bringing such great posts! God bless you sister.
Right back at ya honey!I hope construction is going well. Hope you find that post. I am still working on one responding to some of your questions to me on the conception thread. I might have it in tomorrow. Looking forward to more discussions with you.
Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 20 2007,15:54) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2007,15:42) Thanks, Jodi. Good to hear from you again. I have a post answering one of your posts around here somewhere…..I've looked for it a million times, if I've looked for it once. But we are under construction and it may have been lost. I'll continue to search though because I worked on it for quite a while This preexistence thread is one that is near and dear to my heart. I'm glad to see you bringing such great posts! God bless you sister.
Right back at ya honey!I hope construction is going well. Hope you find that post. I am still working on one responding to some of your questions to me on the conception thread. I might have it in tomorrow. Looking forward to more discussions with you.
I'm looking forward to it, too!I'm heading down to your neck of the woods tomorrow….a couple of us are taking Amtrak to Portland for the day to shop and have a look around. None of us have been to Portland before. Can you believe that? I've lived in WA all my life and never been down to Portland!
Hi folks,
Here is an interesting development. While on another board speaking of angels and demons, I was getting feedback on some verses from Daniel 10. I will list them:
Dan 10:5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz.
Dan 10:6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.
Dan 10:7 Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great dread fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves.
Dan 10:8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength.
Dan 10:9 But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.
Dan 10:10 Then behold, a hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees.
Dan 10:11 He said to me, “O Daniel, man of high esteem, understand the words that I am about to tell you and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling.
Dan 10:12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words.
Dan 10:13 “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.I questioned who the person in 10:6 was. One person responded that they felt it was Yahshua, which made me automatically latch onto “his eyes were like flaming torches”. So let me list that verse again, with verses from Revelation to compare:
Dan 10:6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.
Rev 1:15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.Rev 2:18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
Feet of bronze, eyes of fire, face like the sun (lightning is also intensely bright!), voice like the sound of many waters (very similar to a tumult).
But this brings up another thing: who then is this prince of Persia that is able to resist the one in Daniel 10:6 for 21 days? And if we assume that the one in 10:6 is indeed Yahshua, would this not speak volumes towards his inferiority to God Almighty? After all, it was necessary that Michael assist the one in 10:6 to overcome this prince of Persia. God would not need such assistance.
HI ITS INTERESTING THAT Nebuchadnezzer; saw and Identifies seeing one like the son of God in the furnace;
Yet a sure thing that the Son of God will be with us even now as the earth burns as a hot oven;
Dan 3:24 ¶ Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, [and] spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26 ¶ Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, [and] spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come [hither]. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.Yet Again I think the Son of Man; is the one we look for on the clouds; redeemer; the Son of God is the Judge and destroyer the theif removing? his functions;
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.There is Power in the Son of Man; much power; and the Men are to all become Sons Of God; to be risen in Power and authority?
Charity,
I have not looked much into Daniel or Revelation before because I have not been one who was much into prophecy, but this has peaked my interest. It seems the two books have much in common.I just wonder though: is the vision Daniel sees one sent by Yahshua or by YHWH? How does the vision relate to an existence before earthly birth?
High Kejonn; it is no doubt tied in with his Names
Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.Faithful and true nobody knows him by but himself….His election above Moses even for he was more faithful in his house; that the Name that holds many Kings Crowns our rewards and sheared Inhertance…I say this we should seek
But yet we hardly know him also as the first fruits of them that slept coming with his army; the redeemned
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. :14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.We announce this Name often…Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Here he is the faithful witness only a prince of Kings of the earth; but the first begotten from? the dead?
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,Hi
This is the first place that God talks of his plan to create Jesus; this is revealed to the earth before Danials visions
Almost like God saying let us make Man In our Image the SEED OF David the Son of God…To the Son of Man. to subdue the earth. The already filled earth of the Adam creation…..whom was acknowledged to be the Son of God by the resurrection of the dead…which happened as a dove descended down on him…before the cross…was he incorruptible risen from the womb of a woman? It was not possible for him to destroyed on the cross least anyone may see the promise of the beginning foundations of his kingdom to on earth as the beginning of what shall be the end?…2Sa 7:8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
2Sa 7:9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great [men] that [are] in the earth.
2Sa 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
2Sa 7:11 And as since the time that I commanded judges [to be] over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
2Sa 7:12 ¶ And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
2Sa 7:17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
2Sa 7:18 ¶ Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, Who [am] I, O Lord GOD? and what [is] my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?
2Sa 7:19 And this was yet a small thing in thy sight, O Lord GOD; but thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come. And [is] this the manner of man, O Lord GOD?
A tree has roots…I am the root of David he said…The tree David was cut down..according to the curse that every soul shall return to the dust..but by sure mercy to david his tree roots remained, and the tree in its new form grew…stronger incorruptible by its new rising; from the generation of the fathers..transported to the generations of children. a Father preserved unto his promise from God
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2007,19:10) But some say that the Word/Logos isn't a person or identity but rather a plan or reason of God himself.
t8 wasn't it that what was IN Christ that was the Son of God? The Son of man was flesh. What was in the Son of man was/is the WORD. Was the Word a spirit being?Kenrch…..> the Father who is Spirit and the word was in Jesus, remember when Jesus said the Father was in him. God is Spirit and conceders us temples He can and does cohabit with us in our bodies via his Spirit, Jesus said the (WORDS) are both SPIRIT and LIFE. There were times when God first person Spoke through Jesus. Remember when Jesus spoke, Destory this temple and in three days I shall raise it up, That wasn't Jesus speaking it was God Himself speaking through Him. Jesus couldn't raise himself up he was dead, it was the Father saying that.
The word is God, The Spirit is the Word and composes the mind of God. Doesn't it say let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus. God the FAther was yoked with Jesus and can Yoke with us also. It comes through the annointing, Just like it did Jesus. peace brothers…geneYah= the masculine polarity expression; Weh= the feminine polarity expression, which are a composite, complimentary Unity of Being, the Original Fount from which all pro-creation springs”
Did God put the Female back into the first Man of the new creation.. creating Yahweh that has no need of female
I don’t know but I feel destitute of the God head?Sorry for my Ignorance to understand these Name….s….,If only I could understand..Its Like A brick wall..I cant pass
Father and Yahshua, have they their own peculiar associations within the Trinity?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2007,11:04) Kenrch…..> the Father who is Spirit and the word was in Jesus, remember when Jesus said the Father was in him. God is Spirit and conceders us temples He can and does cohabit with us in our bodies via his Spirit, Jesus said the (WORDS) are both SPIRIT and LIFE. There were times when God first person Spoke through Jesus. Remember when Jesus spoke, Destory this temple and in three days I shall raise it up, That wasn't Jesus speaking it was God Himself speaking through Him. Jesus couldn't raise himself up he was dead, it was the Father saying that.
The word is God, The Spirit is the Word and composes the mind of God. Doesn't it say let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus. God the FAther was yoked with Jesus and can Yoke with us also. It comes through the annointing, Just like it did Jesus. peace brothers…gene
Was Jesus born with the Holy Spirit who is the Word?To Kejonn
I tend to think that the Angel of the Lord was Yeshua.
Angel is the same word messenger and we know that Yeshua is the LORD's messenger. Surely the greatest messenger of all.
Look at these comparisons.
Acts:7:30-39
30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,A created soul sayth these things; is God a spirit; and his spirit he shall put within us ; not his soul??
But Yet the spirit of the soul is laided upon the prophets; for a the father of Jesus in the flesh; and by God the father of both by the spirit within; whom has given the father and roots of Christ his promise that his soul shall live; and preform all his will on earth; yet his corruptible body is in its screpture?
His soul liveth; for God is the God of the living not the dead?Jer 5:9 Shall I not visit for these [things]? saith the LORD: and shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
Jer 5:29 Shall I not visit for these [things]? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
Jer 6:8 Be thou instructed, O Jerusalem, lest my soul depart from thee; lest I make thee desolate, a land not inhabited.Jodi thank you for your post, I agree with your comments but I am not sure if what I was saying is being heard,by the responses I will assume no and try again in greater detail. What I want to focus on is that [adam was created in the tupos/type of the one to come.] This is very significant for the simple fact that adam was created by the power of YWHW and without sin. So whoever he was patterned after would have to come into the world without sin and by the power of God. I believe even though there have been billions of men born after adam that only Christ would fit the mold of being without sin and brought fourth from the power of God. after all this whole chapter as you admit is about adam and christ by the posting of the verses within this chapter. I will wait for postings on this part before I continue on with the thread. [/B]
To Gene.
Yes he was foreordained to have first place in all things.
But that is not why I think he pre-existed.
I think so because of a number of other scriptures.
I'll give you a good one now..
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”“I am” is used by Trinitarians to equate one with YHWH. I think this is false because “I am” is used by Gabriel and men in scripture. It simply means something like “I exist”. Or “that is me”.
Jesus said that he was or existed before Abraham. He didn't say that the memory existed before Abraham, but that he existed.
Jesus said it himself. In fact the reply come after the Jews said:
“You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
t8….> I looked up the scriptures you posted in the Greek text and there are some interesting issues. Jesus said Abraham seen his day, but how could he have except only in spirit because Jesus' day had not yet come, so he had to have meant in a spritual sense. And it's not unreasonable to think he was also using it in a speritual sense when it came to his existance. I believe it was in a prophetic sense. We still have no identifible activity of Jesus before he was born other than prophetic. And there are other reasons Jesus may not have preexisted also. Because it gives him a more real relationship with our idenity. And what The Father did for a exact same person as us He can do for us also, this gives us much more encouragement in life. Just what i think thats all brother….gene
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