Preexistence

[942767]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 30 2012,05:23)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 29 2012,11:23) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 28 2012,14:54) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 28 2012,07:55) Since most if not all other Scriptures indicate Yahshua did not pre-exist except in Yahweh's plan, * it is my view that the words in Philippians 2:5-11 should be accepted at face value, as words are normally used in a natural sense. However, people love a mystery so much that one is sometimes invented where there is no mystery. Let us compare these opposite views. That's rich. Face value for Philippians 2:5-11 as well as other scriptures say that he EXISTED in the form of God, became human, and went back to the glory that he had with God before the world began. Your interpretation is the mysterious one. So mysterious that you have to add in the words plan, thought, and not mention the word exist. Sad for you Frank that you are brainwashed and likely by that denomination you attend. You prove by your words that you are so entrenched in that doctrine, that no matter what scripture challenges that thought, you find a way to make it fit in your own head. Just don't expect us to follow this folly Frank. We believe what the scriptures say, that is where our doctrine is from. Not a denomination, not a creed. Scripture Frank. No, t8, the scriptures do not say that without a little help from your private  interpretation. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Are you of the same belief as I, that Yahshua [“Jesus”] did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being and was not a creator or a co-creator with his and our Father Yahweh [“God”] in the beginning? I noted that t8 capitalized the word 'EXISTED' in his response. It seems that he wanted me to realize that this is in the past tense. I am not sure. I had already realized this, but I do not believe the past tense of the word 'existed' is in reference to his existing with Father Yahweh in the beginning, but is in reference to his existence here on Earth, since this was written well after Yahshua was here on Earth. Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”?

Hi Frank:

I agree with you that Jesus did not pre-exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world, and he was in the form of God as God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ in his ministry here on earth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Frank4YAHWEH]

The Glory Of Messiah

Let’s begin this study by looking at a verse John (Yochanan) wrote used by “pre-
existent Messiah” proponents to prove Yeshua existed as some type of pre-existent
being.  

John 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the gloryG1391 which
I had with You before the world was.  

It would seem that Yeshua had some type of glory before the world was. This verse is
a favorite for those pushing a pre-existent Messiah. From a casual reading it would
seem as though the Anointed existed before the world was created. But, this doctrine
totally disregards the WHOLE of Scripture! We will start from John 17:1 and reading in
context of the Bible see what is going on here.

John 17:1 Yeshua spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said,
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,  

Here we see Yeshua is praying to the Father. Now notice Yeshua is asking to be
glorified, showing he has not yet received this glory being spoken of.  Keep this in
mind. Also keep in mind Yeshua is speaking to the Father; this is also important.
Continuing…

2 even as You (the Father) gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You
have given Him, He may give eternal life.  

From verse 2 we see Yeshua was given authority over all flesh from the Father, he
did not always have it! Remember this is Yeshua himself speaking. This is just one
example showing Yeshua couldn’t be YAH because YAH has always been sovereign
over all creation; terrestrial beings, celestial beings, calamity, Satan and even Yeshua
(1 Chr 29:11, Psa 24:1, 50:10, 103:19, 135:6,  Dan 4:34-35, John 14:28, 20:17, 1 Cor
3:23, 1 Cor 11:3, Rev 3:2,12, Job 1:9-12; 2:4-6, Job 12:9,10, 42:2, Psalm 33:10,11,
115:3, Isa 43:13, 46:10, 55:11, Pro 21:1, Jer 10:13, Acts 17:26,28, Lam 3:37,38, Dan
2:21, Amos 3:6, Ex 4:11,21, 7:2-4, 1 Sam 2:6-10, 1 Kings 22:19-23, Job  42:11, Pro
16:4, Is 44:18, 45:7, 63:17)! Let’s continue reading.

3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true El (The Father), and
Yeshua Messiah whom You have sent.  

Here we see Yeshua declaring that the Father is the only true Power/El or as often
inappropriately translated “God.”  

Mark 10:18 And Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
except God alone.  

On more than one occasion Yeshua denies being the one true Power (God). Paul
confirms that only the Father is the true Power.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols,
we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no
God (El/Power) but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven
or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is
but one God (El/Power), the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for
Him; and one Lord, Yeshua Messiah, by whom are all things, and we exist through
Him.

This is not new, the prophets understood this and taught that YAH was and is the
only true Power (God)!

Jer 10:10 But YHWH is the true Elohim (Power, Might or Strength); He is the living
El and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot
endure His indignation.

Deuteronomy 4:35 “To you it was shown that you might know that YHWH, He is
Elohim; there is no other besides Him… 39″Know therefore today, and take it to
your heart, that YHWH, He is Elohim in heaven above and on the earth below;
there is no other.

Malachi 2:10-11 “Do we not all have one Father? Has not one El created us? Why
do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant
of our fathers? 11″Judah has dealt treacherously, and an abomination has been
committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah has profaned the sanctuary of
YHWH which He loves and has married the daughter of a foreign god.  

This eliminates any thought that Yeshua is YAH or the second member of some type
of trinity or godhead in the Tanakh (Old Testament)! Yeshua is excluded from these
pre-existent scenarios. So what is this glory he is talking about then? In Scripture a
person may possess something which YAH has given them before they actually
existed to receive it. Follow me now. For example:

Genesis 15:18 On that day YHWH made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your
descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great
river, the river Euphrates…”  

The descendants of Abraham were given land from YAH. Now at this point Abraham's
descendants did not exist, yet YAH’s promise is worded as though it has been fulfilled
already. This is what has taken place with Yeshua. We also had glory before we
existed as well. To see this clearly all you have to do is continuing reading this same
chapter.

22″The gloryG1391 which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may
be one, just as We are one;

These are future believers who are not yet in existence. To see this let’s go back to
verse 20.

20″I do not ask on behalf of these alone (the disciples with him at that moment),
but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

The context shows these are future believers. The Messiah has given us glory before
we even existed. Not only did we have glory before we existed but the Most High also
loved us too.

23”I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world
may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.  

We had the love of the Father before we existed just as Yeshua had it before he
existed as well.

24″Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I
am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me
before the foundation of the world.

Glory was given to the disciples even though they were not even alive. They already
possessed it as the Messiah possessed it, though they did not actually have it and
were not living. The same with YAH’s love! We had YAH’s love even before we
existed, the same as Yeshua! Yeshua did not already exist with YAH. Not only that,
but verse 22 clearly shows that John 10:30 is speaking about one in mind, will and
purpose. This glory Yeshua was speaking of was ordained for him before the world
was. This is nothing new. This is called foreordination. What does it mean to
foreordain?

Dictionary: fore·or·dain tr.v. -dained, -dain·ing, -dains. To determine or appoint
beforehand; predestine.

The Bible speaks of foreordination all throughout its pages. We were chosen and
sanctified before we even existed.

Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the El and Father of our Lord Yeshua Messiah, who
has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in
Messiah, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we
would be holy and blameless before Him In love  

Using the same line of thinking folks use in John 17:5 we would be led to believe that
all believers were chosen back in the days when they pre-existed before the earth
was created.

5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Yeshua Messiah to Himself,
according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace,
which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption
through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of
His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to
us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in
Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that
is, the summing up of all things in Messiah, things in the heavens and things on
the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been
predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His
will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Messiah would be to the
praise of His glory.  

Look at that! We are chosen and predestined to be adopted sons and receive YAH’s
grace before we existed. Just like John chapter 17, these verses pertain to YAH's
foreordained plan, not to a pre-existent being or beings. The Most High had
everything planned before the foundation of the world. The Most High knew man
would fall and would need to be redeemed, so being that He knows the beginning
from the end…

(Isaiah 46:9-119″Remember the former things long past, For I am El, and there is
no other; I am El, and there is no one like Me, 10Declaring the end from the
beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My
purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; 11Calling
a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country Truly I
have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.)

…The Most High laid the blue print for us to be redeemed back to him.

1 Peter 1:18-21 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like
silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19but
with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Messiah.
20For He was foreknownG4267 before the foundation of the world, but has
appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21who through Him are believers
in Elohim, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith
and hope are in Elohim.

To continue this study, please click the link to the PDF file as follows:

 
[PDF] CONTINUE …

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people — not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat (1 Corinthians 5:9-11).

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 30 2012,19:24)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 30 2012,05:23) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 29 2012,11:23) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 28 2012,14:54) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 28 2012,07:55) Since most if not all other Scriptures indicate Yahshua did not pre-exist except in Yahweh's plan, * it is my view that the words in Philippians 2:5-11 should be accepted at face value, as words are normally used in a natural sense. However, people love a mystery so much that one is sometimes invented where there is no mystery. Let us compare these opposite views. That's rich. Face value for Philippians 2:5-11 as well as other scriptures say that he EXISTED in the form of God, became human, and went back to the glory that he had with God before the world began. Your interpretation is the mysterious one. So mysterious that you have to add in the words plan, thought, and not mention the word exist. Sad for you Frank that you are brainwashed and likely by that denomination you attend. You prove by your words that you are so entrenched in that doctrine, that no matter what scripture challenges that thought, you find a way to make it fit in your own head. Just don't expect us to follow this folly Frank. We believe what the scriptures say, that is where our doctrine is from. Not a denomination, not a creed. Scripture Frank. No, t8, the scriptures do not say that without a little help from your private  interpretation. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Are you of the same belief as I, that Yahshua [“Jesus”] did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being and was not a creator or a co-creator with his and our Father Yahweh [“God”] in the beginning? I noted that t8 capitalized the word 'EXISTED' in his response. It seems that he wanted me to realize that this is in the past tense. I am not sure. I had already realized this, but I do not believe the past tense of the word 'existed' is in reference to his existing with Father Yahweh in the beginning, but is in reference to his existence here on Earth, since this was written well after Yahshua was here on Earth. Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? Hi Frank: I agree with you that Jesus did not pre-exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world, and he was in the form of God as God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ in his ministry here on earth. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

well it seems you have a party ;gene,frank,and you are now seeing the ho no some of the scriptures in a same way with your unique interpretation,

this is quite all right it is not new even within the circle of the apostles it was like that ,but only the apostles kept the scriptures in front of their eyes but the others did not so they follow their own opinions

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 28 2012,08:42)

John 1 Properly Translated by the Late Professor of the Exegesis of Holy Scripture at the University of Oxford Some people say, “I don't need scholars. I just read my Bible.” This statement contains a hidden fallacy. The Bible you read (unless you are reading the Greek and Hebrew) comes to you via a scholar or scholars who have decided to translate it in a certain way. But you may not know that other equally distinguished linguists and scholars offer a very different understanding. Many think that John 1:1, 2, 14 mean “In the beginning was the Word – that is, the Son of God – and the Son was with God and all things were made by him, the Son…and the Son became flesh.” But here is what John really intended according to other scholars and based on John's very Jewish background in the Hebrew Bible: “In the beginning was the purpose, the purpose in the mind of God, the purpose which was God's own being… this purpose took human form in Jesus of Nazareth” (G.B. Caird, New Testament Theology, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995, p. 332).

It would be a consideration if John 1:1 was the only scripture, given the word logos and it's varying views. A big problem you have Frank is that it says elsewhere that God made all things through the son and for him.

I know you have an alternate view of that verse too. But you have to admit (when you clear your bias for 30 seconds) that God creating all through the Logos, the Logos becoming flesh as Jesus, and Jesus wearing the title “The Word of God”, all seem a bit too coincidental if they are all wrongly understood. Why is it that if they are understood wrongly, that these supposed wrong views form a logical pattern and compliment each other in the most beautiful way. Couple that with the Book of John being about Jesus and as such the opening words are “In the beginning was the Word”. (And a definite article before LOGOS too.)

[Proclaimer]

Frank, please refrain from flooding this topic with long posts and links too your site.
Try to stay on the topic and not venture to far. Keep it more focused.

The first rule of engaging in HN is to not do any of the following:
Spamming, flooding, or flaming in the forums or the PM service.

Many posts for the purpose of links is spam and flooding a forum just means trying to be heard above others by repeated posting or posting too much, or posting excessively long posts.

Try to think of this topic as a conversation. Would you talk to someone 10 paragraphs at a time and remind them of the URL to your site every time you spoke?

[GeneBalthrop]

T8…………..Please go read the PDF File Frank Posted for me you will find it quite enlightening if you read it with an open mind at least this one and come back and let talk about it. You like Scholar opinions well yopu can get it there, perhaps there is something you have overlooked in you understand of John 1:!. Aside from the obvious fact that the word Jesus is not even mentioned there.

Frank if you are reading this post Please Post that PDF file you posted to me to T8, perhaps he will read it, it is not that long and very much to the point.

peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2012,23:29)

T8…………..Please go read the PDF File Frank Posted for me you will find it quite enlightening if you read it with an open mind at least this one and come back and let talk about it.  You like Scholar opinions well yopu can get it there, perhaps there is something you have overlooked in you understand of John 1:!. Aside from the obvious fact that the word Jesus is not even mentioned there. Frank if you are reading this  post Please Post that PDF file you posted to me to T8, perhaps he will read it, it is not that long and very much to the point. peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene

Gene,

I will no longer be participating in posting links to this forum, since one of the mods has insisted that I do not do so. In fact, I will no longer be participating in posting anything in this forum whatsoever and will remove myself from receiving e-mail notifications of responses to me in this forum. You can have all enjoyment that you desire with these stubborn jackasses all you want, but I am out of here for ever!

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 31 2012,06:29)

T8…………..Please go read the PDF File Frank Posted for me you will find it quite enlightening if you read it with an open mind at least this one and come back and let talk about it.  You like Scholar opinions well yopu can get it there, perhaps there is something you have overlooked in you understand of John 1:!. Aside from the obvious fact that the word Jesus is not even mentioned there. Frank if you are reading this  post Please Post that PDF file you posted to me to T8, perhaps he will read it, it is not that long and very much to the point. peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene

gene

if you like franks views why you do not join him on his site ?

[Pastry]

Hi Pierre, no matter what you put in front of them it just does not sink in, the blind leading the blind, in their own interpretation of the Scriptures, not seeing the truth, so sad….I have given up on them… it is senseless to me…Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

To All……………well there seems to be a splitting of the trails here, Kinda reminds me of the five wise and five foolish virgins mentioned in scriptures,  As far as Pierre and Irene goes i could say the same about them as they say about others, as far as i am concerned a bat could not be so blind as both of them seem to be. They have worked tirelessly to try to get people that did not agree with there dogmas and false teachings kicked off this site all along. May God deal with them as they have dealt with others , if he is not doing it already.  I have noticed for years it is alway the Preexistences and the trinitarians that start the Personal attacks on People Here. I wounder why that is>  

They either change subject matter of a Post or ignore the posted scriptures. So Irene it is true the Blind will definitely lead the Blind and they both will fall in a ditch and in the case of some here they already are in the ditch.  Irene at least have the juts to use the Names of the people you are talking about instead of sneaking around and making snide remarks about “THEM”. Or are you afraid it might get you a tile,  like you have caused so many others to get. You and Pierre make a good Match both of you are accuser of the brethren and have been from the very start,  So let God deal with you both according to your folly. IMO

gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 30 2012,22:32)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 28 2012,08:42) John 1 Properly Translated by the Late Professor of the Exegesis of Holy Scripture at the University of Oxford Some people say, “I don't need scholars. I just read my Bible.” This statement contains a hidden fallacy. The Bible you read (unless you are reading the Greek and Hebrew) comes to you via a scholar or scholars who have decided to translate it in a certain way. But you may not know that other equally distinguished linguists and scholars offer a very different understanding. Many think that John 1:1, 2, 14 mean “In the beginning was the Word – that is, the Son of God – and the Son was with God and all things were made by him, the Son…and the Son became flesh.” But here is what John really intended according to other scholars and based on John's very Jewish background in the Hebrew Bible:   “In the beginning was the purpose, the purpose in the mind of God, the purpose which was God's own being… this purpose took human form in Jesus of Nazareth” (G.B. Caird, New Testament Theology, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995, p. 332). It would be a consideration if John 1:1 was the only scripture, given the word logos and it's varying views. A big problem you have Frank is that it says elsewhere that God made all things through the son and for him. I know you have an alternate view of that verse too. But you have to admit (when you clear your bias for 30 seconds) that God creating all through the Logos, the Logos becoming flesh as Jesus, and Jesus wearing the title “The Word of God”, all seem a bit too coincidental if they are all wrongly understood. Why is it that if they are understood wrongly, that these supposed wrong views form a logical pattern and compliment each other in the most beautiful way. Couple that with the Book of John being about Jesus and as such the opening words are “In the beginning was the Word”. (And a definite article before LOGOS too.)

T8……….Wrong the LOGOS became FLESH (IN) Jesus. The Logos is NOT JESUS, Jesus plainly said the FATHER who is the LOGOS was (IN,IN,IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, ) HIM. When are you going to (START) to Believe JESUS T8 ?

Peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 31 2012,17:38)

To All……………well there seems to be a splitting of the trails here, Kinda reminds me of the five wise and five foolish virgins mentioned in scriptures,  As far as Pierre and Irene goes i could say the same about them as they say about others, as far as i am concerned a bat could not be so blind as both of them seem to be. They have worked tirelessly to try to get people that did not agree with there dogmas and false teachings kicked off this site all along. May God deal with them as they have dealt with others , if he is not doing it already.  I have noticed for years it is alway the Preexistences and the trinitarians that start the Personal attacks on People Here. I wounder why that is>   They either change subject matter of a Post or ignore the posted scriptures. So Irene it is true the Blind will definitely lead the Blind and they both will fall in a ditch and in the case of some here they already are in the ditch.  Irene at least have the juts to use the Names of the people you are talking about instead of sneaking around and making snide remarks about “THEM”. Or are you afraid it might get you a tile,  like you have caused so many others to get. You and Pierre make a good Match both of you are accuser of the brethren and have been from the very start,  So let God deal with you both according to your folly. IMO gene

gene

Quote

To All……………well there seems to be a splitting of the trails here, Kinda reminds me of the five wise and five foolish virgins mentioned in scriptures, As far as Pierre and Irene goes i could say the same about them as they say about others,

you are right you could but you cannot because we have shown you always scriptures to back our comments and quotes ,what is not your case,

you show ;only broken up verses,words only,section of many verses punch together as one scripture ,this is not saying the truth ,it is the way of the deceiver ,

you do not have to believe me ;anyone can see your quotes in all the topics,it is there

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Pastry @ Jan. 31 2012,17:01)

Hi Pierre, no matter what you put in front of them it just does not sink in, the blind leading the blind, in their own interpretation of the Scriptures, not seeing the truth, so sad….I have given up on them… it is senseless to me…Irene

hi Irene

how you are doing both of you ??

good to see anchored on truth ,I always wander why they do not have their own congregation ,I mean Gene ,Frank,and others
they all agree with each other??

they most know that they do not have the truth and so stick were their is some truth of God,

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 31 2012,10:42)

T8……….Wrong the LOGOS became FLESH (IN) Jesus. The Logos is NOT JESUS, Jesus plainly said the FATHER who is the LOGOS was (IN,IN,IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, ) HIM. When are you going to (START) to Believe JESUS T8 ? Peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene

WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE  does it say that the Logos that was WITH God was IN Jesus.

You have to keep adding words.
See why we don't take your teaching seriously.
We do not believe that we have to add words in order to fit our understanding.

Better to take scripture as it is written and study it in depth.

You keep adding and subtracting words. e.g:

[Proclaimer]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 31 2012,06:29)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 31 2012,06:29) T8…………..Please go read the PDF File Frank Posted for me you will find it quite enlightening if you read it with an open mind at least this one and come back and let talk about it.  You like Scholar opinions well yopu can get it there, perhaps there is something you have overlooked in you understand of John 1:!. Aside from the obvious fact that the word Jesus is not even mentioned there. Frank if you are reading this  post Please Post that PDF file you posted to me to T8, perhaps he will read it, it is not that long and very much to the point. peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene gene if you like franks views why you do not join him on his site ?

+1

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 31 2012,14:18)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 31 2012,10:42) T8……….Wrong the LOGOS became FLESH (IN) Jesus. The Logos is NOT JESUS, Jesus plainly said the FATHER who is the LOGOS was (IN,IN,IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, IN, ) HIM. When are you going to (START) to Believe JESUS T8 ? Peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE  does it say that the Logos that was WITH God was IN Jesus. You have to keep adding words. See why we don't take your teaching seriously. We do not believe that we have to add words in order to fit our understanding. Better to take scripture as it is written and study it in depth. You keep adding and subtracting words. e.g: You need to subtract the world EXIST, (although he existed in the form of God). You need to remove the definite articles in John 1:1 (THE Logos is just logos to you. You need to accept that there was no full image of the invisible God till 2000 years ago, so previous to that all the ages that preceded could not see the fullness of God. You need to ignore that God made the cosmos through his son Jesus Christ and add in words like made it in his memory of his future existence. So for 14 billion years, God made everything through his son who was created 2000 years ago. You need to twist, remove, and add an immense amount of words from many verses to keep your private little doctrine in tact. And for what benefit? That is a BIG BIG BIG fail Gene.

T8……….I am adding word it is you who say John 1:1 is saying Jesus is the Logos not I, you ask where where where, try this < I the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and logos WAS GOD Now when was the Logos GOD (IN THE BEGINNING)  I don see the word JESUS there now do you T8 if so pleas enlighten us,  Perhaps John just forgot how to spell Jesus and accidentally left it out so you could change it to let us know what it really meant, becasue John was to ignorant  to do it, so He need your Preexistence Help to.

Where O Where does it say the LOGOS who was GOD was in Jesus,  Try this > The son of Man can do “NOTHING” of HIMSELF, The Father who is “IN ME” (HE) does the works.

Why didn't  Jesus (YOUR) LOGOS do the works ,  If He was the LOGOS.

and as far as twisting up scriptures many have shown you over and over where that is exactly what you do here  over and over.

[Proclaimer]

Gene, if wisdom is part of God and he begats wisdom as another being, then wisdom still resides in God even though we have a being called Wisdom.

If truth is part of God and he begats a being that is the Truth, then that does not nullify the truth in God either.

If a fire lights another fire, it doesn't lessen or take away from the first fire.

Also, the Word was theos is not saying the Word was THE GOD, like you are alluding to. If it said that, then it would be actually saying that the Word was God to the exclusion of the Father. Similar to Obama is the president to the exclusion of others.

Know your Greek or at least understand that definite articles and lack of them apply different understanding to the text.

The Word was theos can be read in the same sense as the Word was divine or what God was the Word was. It is not saying who the word was in John 1:1 but what. The 'who' comes later in that the Word became flesh and known as Jesus Christ who also happens to wears the title “the Word of God” as described in the Book of Revelation when talking of the glorified Christ.

At the moment, Jesus Christ is in the glory that he had with the father before the world began.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 31 2012,10:42)

T8……….Wrong the LOGOS became FLESH (IN) Jesus.

The word in is not there Gene.
It is in your own head.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8………..So you do not believe Jesus when he said the FATHER is in Me so tell us in what “WAY” was the FATHER (IN) HIM. If not by His Spirit Which Jesus said was THE WORDS He SPOKE. What you are saying is like you words are not really you either. The Logos became FLESH (IN) Christ Jesus. T8 it is just that simple brother.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………..gene

[Author]

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