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Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2012,07:28) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 26 2012,13:19) Pierre, Where are the Scriptures? Note the following words in bold:
You do believe that Yahshua IS the ACTUAL word of our Heavenly Father and Creator that pre-existed with Him in the beginning in relation to what is said in the first part of Yahchanan's [John's] writings, right?
How long are you going to dance around my questions before you actually give an answer to them?
Then how do you believe that Mike and t8 would answer these questions, since you feel that you need their “private interpretation” of Scripture?
I am not trying to deceive you! Surely you know what it is that you believe without Mike and t8's “private interpretation“, don't you? I am simply asking you what it is that you believe concerning these three simple questions. You may explain your answers to these three simple questions in any manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe.
These three simple questions are as follows?:
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word ceased to exist (died) at any time? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word is a separate being apart from Himself? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word was with Him in the beginning or do you believe that His word was somewhere else and not with Him?
If you feel that you can not answer these three simple questions in accordance with what Scripture teaches (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“) and explain your answers to these three simple questions in a manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“), simply say that you can not answer them.
Following are two more questions that I would be very interested in hearing YOUR answers to:
Do you believe that your word is with you? If not, who do you believe that your word is with or where it is?
Do you believe that your word is you? If not, who do you believe your word is or do you believe your word is someone else (such as Mike and t8's).
Trust in Yahweh with all YOUR heart and LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).
It seems that Pierre would rather trust in Mike and t8 with all his heart and to acknowledge them to make his path crooked instead of a path that is straight in Father Yahweh.
frankso the reason of your questions are related to .John 1-1 AND 14
and also Revelation 19;
BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE THAT “THE WORD “IS GODS SPOKESPERSON, RIGHT
Pierre
Pierre,You should know full well by now that I do not believe that Father Yahweh's word is a person, but is just that, Father Yahweh's word. I believe that Yahshua is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Now that I have answered your question concerning this point, how about answering my questions that I have continued to ask you time and time again as follows:
Where are the Scriptures? Note the following words in bold:
You do believe that Yahshua IS the ACTUAL word of our Heavenly Father and Creator that pre-existed with Him in the beginning in relation to what is said in the first part of Yahchanan's [John's] writings, right?
How long are you going to dance around my questions before you actually give an answer to them?
Then how do you believe that Mike and t8 would answer these questions, since you feel that you need their “private interpretation” of Scripture?
I am not trying to deceive you! Surely you know what it is that you believe without Mike and t8's “private interpretation“, don't you? I am simply asking you what it is that you believe concerning these three simple questions. You may explain your answers to these three simple questions in any manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe.
These three simple questions are as follows?:
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word ceased to exist (died) at any time? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word is a separate being apart from Himself? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word was with Him in the beginning or do you believe that His word was somewhere else and not with Him?
If you feel that you can not answer these three simple questions in accordance with what Scripture teaches (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“) and explain your answers to these three simple questions in a manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“), simply say that you can not answer them.
Following are two more questions that I would be very interested in hearing YOUR answers to:
Do you believe that your word is with you? If not, who do you believe that your word is with or where it is?
Do you believe that your word is you? If not, who do you believe your word is or do you believe your word is someone else (such as Mike and t8's).
Trust in Yahweh with all YOUR heart and LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).
It seems that Pierre would rather trust in Mike and t8 with all his heart and to acknowledge them to make his path crooked instead of a path that is straight in Father Yahweh.
frank
Quote Pierre, You should know full well by now that I do not believe that Father Yahweh's word is a person, but is just that, Father Yahweh's word. I believe that Yahshua is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Now that I have answered your question concerning this point, how about answering my questions that I have continued to ask you time and time again as follows:
Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Col 1:15 He(Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me(Christ) forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ACCORDING TO JOHN 1;14 CHRIST IS THE WORD THAT BECAME FLESH, AND THAT WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD,AND THAT ALL THINGS WERE CREATED TROUGH HIM,SEE COL 1;15 AND ALSO PROV;8;22 AND HEB;1;2
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 1:2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is,the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword.
THOSE SCRIPTURES BELLOW, ADDRESSED TO ISRAEL TEACHERS BY JESUS ,CAN EASILY BE ADDRESSED TO YOU GUYS,
Jn 3:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.Jn 3:17 For God did notJn 3:17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
SO THE SON OF GOD WAS SEND “INTO THE WORLD” DID CHRIST NOT SAY THAT HE CAME FROM ABOCE AND WILL RETURN TO HIS FATHER ??YES
so this is what I believe ,YOU HAVE IT ALL IN SCRIPTURES.
Pierre
Pierre
You still have not addressed my questions as follows:
Where are the Scriptures? Note the following words in bold:
You do believe that Yahshua IS the ACTUAL word of our Heavenly Father and Creator that pre-existed with Him in the beginning in relation to what is said in the first part of Yahchanan's [John's] writings, right?
How long are you going to dance around my questions before you actually give an answer to them?
Then how do you believe that Mike and t8 would answer these questions, since you feel that you need their “private interpretation” of Scripture?
I am not trying to deceive you! Surely you know what it is that you believe without Mike and t8's “private interpretation“, don't you? I am simply asking you what it is that you believe concerning these three simple questions. You may explain your answers to these three simple questions in any manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe.
These three simple questions are as follows?:
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word ceased to exist (died) at any time? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word is a separate being apart from Himself? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word was with Him in the beginning or do you believe that His word was somewhere else and not with Him?
If you feel that you can not answer these three simple questions in accordance with what Scripture teaches (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“) and explain your answers to these three simple questions in a manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“), simply say that you can not answer them.
Following are two more questions that I would be very interested in hearing YOUR answers to:
Do you believe that your word is with you? If not, who do you believe that your word is with or where it is?
Do you believe that your word is you? If not, who do you believe your word is or do you believe your word is someone else (such as Mike and t8's).
Trust in Yahweh with all YOUR heart and LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).
It seems that Pierre would rather trust in Mike and t8 with all his heart and to acknowledge them to make his path crooked instead of a path that is straight in Father Yahweh.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 26 2012,16:46) Pierre You still have not addressed my questions as follows:
Where are the Scriptures? Note the following words in bold:
You do believe that Yahshua IS the ACTUAL word of our Heavenly Father and Creator that pre-existed with Him in the beginning in relation to what is said in the first part of Yahchanan's [John's] writings, right?
How long are you going to dance around my questions before you actually give an answer to them?
Then how do you believe that Mike and t8 would answer these questions, since you feel that you need their “private interpretation” of Scripture?
I am not trying to deceive you! Surely you know what it is that you believe without Mike and t8's “private interpretation“, don't you? I am simply asking you what it is that you believe concerning these three simple questions. You may explain your answers to these three simple questions in any manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe.
These three simple questions are as follows?:
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word ceased to exist (died) at any time? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word is a separate being apart from Himself? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word was with Him in the beginning or do you believe that His word was somewhere else and not with Him?
If you feel that you can not answer these three simple questions in accordance with what Scripture teaches (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“) and explain your answers to these three simple questions in a manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“), simply say that you can not answer them.
Following are two more questions that I would be very interested in hearing YOUR answers to:
Do you believe that your word is with you? If not, who do you believe that your word is with or where it is?
Do you believe that your word is you? If not, who do you believe your word is or do you believe your word is someone else (such as Mike and t8's).
Trust in Yahweh with all YOUR heart and LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).
It seems that Pierre would rather trust in Mike and t8 with all his heart and to acknowledge them to make his path crooked instead of a path that is straight in Father Yahweh.
frankIf you do not understand what i have written ,this is your understanding that prevent that ,not me,
I have answered your question related the John 1;1 -14,and other scriptures quotes in my quote ,
SO ADDRESS THE SCRIPTURES NOT MY PERSON PLEASE ,MY SPIRIT IS WITH THE SCRIPTURES i QUOTED YOU.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2012,10:00) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 26 2012,16:46) Pierre You still have not addressed my questions as follows:
Where are the Scriptures? Note the following words in bold:
You do believe that Yahshua IS the ACTUAL word of our Heavenly Father and Creator that pre-existed with Him in the beginning in relation to what is said in the first part of Yahchanan's [John's] writings, right?
How long are you going to dance around my questions before you actually give an answer to them?
Then how do you believe that Mike and t8 would answer these questions, since you feel that you need their “private interpretation” of Scripture?
I am not trying to deceive you! Surely you know what it is that you believe without Mike and t8's “private interpretation“, don't you? I am simply asking you what it is that you believe concerning these three simple questions. You may explain your answers to these three simple questions in any manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe.
These three simple questions are as follows?:
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word ceased to exist (died) at any time? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word is a separate being apart from Himself? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word was with Him in the beginning or do you believe that His word was somewhere else and not with Him?
If you feel that you can not answer these three simple questions in accordance with what Scripture teaches (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“) and explain your answers to these three simple questions in a manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“), simply say that you can not answer them.
Following are two more questions that I would be very interested in hearing YOUR answers to:
Do you believe that your word is with you? If not, who do you believe that your word is with or where it is?
Do you believe that your word is you? If not, who do you believe your word is or do you believe your word is someone else (such as Mike and t8's).
Trust in Yahweh with all YOUR heart and LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).
It seems that Pierre would rather trust in Mike and t8 with all his heart and to acknowledge them to make his path crooked instead of a path that is straight in Father Yahweh.
frankIf you do not understand what i have written ,this is your understanding that prevent that ,not me,
I have answered your question related the John 1;1 -14,and other scriptures quotes in my quote ,
SO ADDRESS THE SCRIPTURES NOT MY PERSON PLEASE ,MY SPIRIT IS WITH THE SCRIPTURES i QUOTED YOU.
Pierre
Pierre,I am already quite familiar with the Scripture verses and passages that are twisted, wrested and perverted to support the pre-existence doctrine, but you still have not addressed my questions. If you do not want to answer them all you would need do is say so. Since you no longer want me to address you personally, this will be the end of any discussion that I will have with you in the future. So, when you respond to me in this forum, don't get all hairy because I do not respond to you in return. In other words, if you do not want me to respond to you personally, I also would like for you to show the same consideration in not responding to me personally.
Where are the Scriptures? Note the following words in bold:
You do believe that Yahshua IS the ACTUAL word of our Heavenly Father and Creator that pre-existed with Him in the beginning in relation to what is said in the first part of Yahchanan's [John's] writings, right?
How long are you going to dance around my questions before you actually give an answer to them?
Then how do you believe that Mike and t8 would answer these questions, since you feel that you need their “private interpretation” of Scripture?
I am not trying to deceive you! Surely you know what it is that you believe without Mike and t8's “private interpretation“, don't you? I am simply asking you what it is that you believe concerning these three simple questions. You may explain your answers to these three simple questions in any manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe.
These three simple questions are as follows?:
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word ceased to exist (died) at any time? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word is a separate being apart from Himself? Yes or no?
Do you believe that Father Yahweh's word was with Him in the beginning or do you believe that His word was somewhere else and not with Him?
If you feel that you can not answer these three simple questions in accordance with what Scripture teaches (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“) and explain your answers to these three simple questions in a manner that you feel that is appropriate in accordance with what it is that you believe (or in accordance with Mike and t8's “private interpretation“), simply say that you can not answer them.
Following are two more questions that I would be very interested in hearing YOUR answers to:
Do you believe that your word is with you? If not, who do you believe that your word is with or where it is?
Do you believe that your word is you? If not, who do you believe your word is or do you believe your word is someone else (such as Mike and t8's).
Trust in Yahweh with all YOUR heart and LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).
It seems that Pierre would rather trust in Mike and t8 with all his heart and to acknowledge them to make his path crooked instead of a path that is straight in Father Yahweh.
frank
Quote I am already quite familiar with the Scripture verses and passages that are twisted, wrested and perverted to support the pre-existence doctrine, prove it ;that 1;John 1 -14,and Rev 19,13 and Prov 8;22-31, and Col;1 15-18, and John 3;10-11 and others are all perverted
?just because you are a pharisees ,does not change the fact that Jesus Christ was the son of God that came down from his father side ,descend to us and give up his live ;
in truth Frank ,you become irrelevant.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2012,09:34) frank Quote Pierre, You should know full well by now that I do not believe that Father Yahweh's word is a person, but is just that, Father Yahweh's word. I believe that Yahshua is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Now that I have answered your question concerning this point, how about answering my questions that I have continued to ask you time and time again as follows:
Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Col 1:15 He(Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me(Christ) forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ACCORDING TO JOHN 1;14 CHRIST IS THE WORD THAT BECAME FLESH, AND THAT WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD,AND THAT ALL THINGS WERE CREATED TROUGH HIM,SEE COL 1;15 AND ALSO PROV;8;22 AND HEB;1;2
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 1:2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is,the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword.
THOSE SCRIPTURES BELLOW, ADDRESSED TO ISRAEL TEACHERS BY JESUS ,CAN EASILY BE ADDRESSED TO YOU GUYS,
Jn 3:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.Jn 3:17 For God did notJn 3:17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
SO THE SON OF GOD WAS SEND “INTO THE WORLD” DID CHRIST NOT SAY THAT HE CAME FROM ABOCE AND WILL RETURN TO HIS FATHER ??YES
so this is what I believe ,YOU HAVE IT ALL IN SCRIPTURES.
Pierre
Pierre.What is pr. stand for?
And sa. la?Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
By Voy Wilks
1990 – Revised 1993“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him who sent me; …” (John 6:38, KJV).
I have searched the Scriptures at length and (assuming I overlooked none), have found that the Apostle John is the only witness which says Yahshua came down from heaven. John mentions this several times. They are listed here for your convenience:
John 3:13,31; 6:32-33, 38, 41-42, 50-51, 58, 62; 8:42; 16:27-28; 17:8
Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude make no mention that Yahshua “came down from heaven.
Some believe that every major doctrine must have two witnesses. On this major point, however, we have only one witness who testifies that “Yahshua came down from heaven.” Such an astonishing bit of history as this should have several witnesses. But no. There is only one witness – the Apostle John. What are we to make of this surprising bit of information?
Actually, my view is, when biblical Scriptures are involved, only one witness is needed. However, something so outstanding as this would surely have been mentioned by other New Testament writers if this is to be accepted as literally true. From the list above, we see that no other New Testament writer records that “Yahshua came down from heaven.”
Figures of Speech
In reading through the book of Saint John, we discover that he indulges in many figures of speech; more than any other New Testament writer. Perhaps some will protest “But John wrote exact quotations from the Master's lips!” Perhaps this is true. If so, the other New Testament writers evidently gave the meaning of Yahshua's messages, rather than the exact quotations. Let us note an example:
“… Yahshua stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” (John 7:37,38 KJV).
Dropping the flowery figures of speech, the real message is: “One day my disciples will receive the Holy Spirit in a most powerful way” (John 3:39; Acts 2:4).
Compare John's report (above) with Luke's report on the same topic:
“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children; how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask him?” (Luke 11:13).
Misleading the Opposition
On many occasions Yahshua spoke in metaphors and in ambiguous parables to purposely mislead the opposition.
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. … Therefore speak I unto them in parables; because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand …” (Mt. 13:10-15).
“… unto them that are without (cf. Rev. 22:15), all these things are done in parables: that seeing they may see, and ,not perceive; and hearing may hear, and not understand; lest at anytime they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them” (Mark 4:11,12).
Another example: “Yahshua said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19). He spoke of his death and resurrection, not the temple building (John 2:21,22).
On some occasions, even his disciples did not understand his parables, and asked him to explain (Mt. 13:36; Mark 8:14-17).
On other occasions Yahshua answered questions with questions; often, with questions they did not understand, or could not respond to (Mark 11:29; 12:34b). On still other occasions, he purposely made them angry, so that they wished to kill him (Mt. 23:17,19,24,25,33; Mark 7:19-23; John 7:32-46).
Yahshua Pre-existed (In the Father's Plan)
Evidently Yahshua pre-existed, but only in the sense that he was in the Father's glorious plans, and had been since the foundation of the world (John 17:5, 24), {See the paper dealing with this Scripture}. In the same sense, Yahshua was “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). Obviously, he was not literally and actually killed before the world was made, but it was in the Father's plan that the Messiah would be slain to redeem mankind.
In a similar way and in the same sense, Yahshua “came down from heaven.” That is, he went out (according to plan) preaching by the authority of heaven; that is, by Yahweh's authority.
Since both the Father and the plans were in heaven, Yahshua did, in this sense, come down from heaven. Therefore, when he had completed all assignments planned for his first coming, he ascended to heaven where he was before” (in Yahweh's plan) (John 6:62). Remember, Yahshua spoke in parables for the express purpose of blinding the Jewish opposition (Mt. 13:10-15; Mark 4:11,12).
Every Good Gift Comes Down From Above
Yahshua “came down from heaven.” A similar statement reads as follows:
“Every good gift and every perfect gift IS FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights, …” (James 1:17).
James spoke of spiritual gifts in particular, but this is true of everything, including the physical blessings we receive. Take the lowly potato: we dig it from the ground. However, if it were not for the “blessings which come down from above,” the ground would not produce the potato for our use. All good gifts come down from above, from the Father of lights. This truth can be expressed in any one, or all, of the following ways:
Gifts from above, Gifts from heaven
Blessings of heaven, Blessings from YahwehAs noted above, James spoke especially of spiritual blessings. Undoubtedly, our greatest spiritual blessing is Yahshua, the Messiah. He was in the Father's plan, even before the world was made (Eph. 1:10; RSV; 1 Peter 1:20), therefore Yahshua's coming is a “good and perfect gift from above” (James 1:17). Just as the lowly potato appears in the ground as a gift from above, so Yahshua (born of a woman) appeared as a gift from above. Yahshua, as well as the potato, had ancestors, not a pre-existence, as indicated in the following Scriptures:
David, “… being a prophet, and knowing that Yahweh had sworn with an oath to him, that of THE FRUIT OF HIS LOINS, according to the FLESH, he would raise up Messiah to sit on his [David's] throne; …” (Acts 2:30; Rev. 5:5; 22:16; Heb. 7:14; Jer. 33:20-22).
We have considered the blessings which come down from above. On some occasions evil also comes down from above – from Yahweh” (Micah 1:12). On this occasion Yahweh brought it about by the use of invading armies who took the people captive (Micah 1:6,16). No pre-existence was involved.
John's Baptism
Yahshua asked the opposition, “The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven, or form men?” (Mt. 21:25; Mark 11:30; Luke 20:4).
Obviously, John's baptism was “from heaven.” Metonymy is used here. “Heaven” an euphemism, an expression indicating the authority of heaven; an epithet designating Yahweh, the ruler in heaven. Yahweh approved and supported John, his preaching, his baptism, and his work. Just as the baptism of John came from heaven, so Yahshua came from heaven. Both John and Yahshua were approved (authorized) by Yahweh – “our Father who is in heaven” (Mt. 6:9).
Other Scriptures speak in a similar fashion, as is indicated by these references:
As opposed to earthly envy, sensual and devilish thoughts and conduct, “… the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits. …” (James 3:16,17).
“They set their mouth against the heavens, …” (Ps. 73:9).
“I have sinned against heaven …” (Luke 15:18,21).
The thought is, “wisdom from above,” and the “heaven(s): are euphemisms for Yahweh and his authority and his influence.
Even the exp
ression, the “kingdom of heaven,” is revealed. The kingdom is not in heaven. Instead it was (and will be) on the earth. However, it is planned and authorized by him who is in heaven; Yahweh, the Most High El.Conclusion
How can we be sure the above understanding is correct? We can be sure because Scriptures in the Old and New Testaments indicate the following evidences:
o There is only one Yahweh (Neh. 9:6; Ps. 83:18), therefore Yahshua was never a Yahweh. See the paper, “One Lone Yahweh.”
o There is only one true El (Isa 43:10,11; John 17:3), therefore Yahshua was never an El.
o There is only one true Eloah (Ps. 18:31; 114:4), therefore Yahshua was never an Eloah.
o There is only one true Elohim (Isa. 45:5,6; 46:6), therefore Yahshua was never an Elohim. See the paper, “Elohim: Singular or Plural?”
o True Deity does not die (Deut. 32:40; Dan. 12:7), therefore Yahshua was never Deity, because he died (Acts 3:15).
o Yahshua was never an angel (Heb. 1:5,13, NEB), therefore Yahshua did not pre-exist as an angel.
o The fleshly (physical) body comes first. Only later comes the spiritual body (1 Cor. 15:46). This speaks directly about Yahshua's person. Therefore Yahshua did not pre-exist as a spiritual being.
o Yahshua was born of a woman (Gal. 4:4), therefore Yahshua was truly flesh and blood; a human being (Heb. 2:14).
o Yahshua was the “fruit of David's loins” (Acts 2:30), therefore Yahshua was fully human – flesh and blood.
o Yahshua had the same origin as his brethern (Heb. 2:11), therefore Yahshua, originally, was not Deity.
o Man was created a little lower than the angels, therefore Yahshua was, originally, lower than the angels (Heb. 2:6-9).
o Moses predicted that Yahweh would raise up from among his brethern a prophet “like unto me” (Deut. 18:15-19). If Yahshua was Deity in human form, he would not have been “like” Moses.
o Yahshua spoke in parables to purposely mislead the opposition, therefore some of his statements must not be taken literally.
o Yahshua purposely angered the opposition, therefore they developed a strong desire to kill him.
o Only the Apostle John reported that Yahshua came down from heaven. If literally true, we would expect other writers to report this. Since they did not, we must except this as a figure of speech, indicating that Yahshua's approval and authority came down from heaven – from Yahweh above.
o The baptism of John was also “from heaven.” Did John or his baptism pre-exist?
o All good and perfect gifts “come down from above, from the Father of lights.” This includes the lowly potato as well as Yahshua the Nazarene.
o Both Yahshua and the potato were here, not because they pre-existed, because both had ancestors.
Brethern, Scriptures indicate Yahshua existed, even before the world began, but only in Yahweh's glorious plan (Eph. 1:9, RSV). Since both Yahweh and his plan were in heaven, Yahshua “came down from heaven.” This statement is a figure of speech, indicating Yahshua's authority was from above; from Yahweh, the Most High El.
Come, Yahshua Messiah!
Note: We have more than 60 papers about the non-pre-existence of Yahshua [FREE]. If interested,
PLEASE ASK FOR THEM.Frank…………..I tell you they just do not get it brother, Something has blinded their eyes they just can not comprehend what you am i have quoted from scriptures , But when it comes to distorting the Truth to meet Pagan Metaphysical ideologies handed down by Plato and Aristotle they have no problem receiving that. Most here were educated in the teaching of the Roman Catholic or Protestant churches and these false teaching were instilled in the at a very young age so it is part of their physiological make up. Some have come part way out of these teachings but can't come completely out it seems. IMO
Keep up the good work brother………………………………………………………….peace and Love …………………..gene
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 28 2012,01:11)
Misleading the OppositionCome, Yahshua Messiah!
Note: We have more than 60 papers about the non-pre-existence of Yahshua [FREE]. If interested,
PLEASE ASK FOR THEM.
Hi Frank,60 opinions, Mmmm, that should be enough to convince almost anyone.
Col 2:8-9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men,
after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgfrank
you cannot prove anything with opinions because those deny scriptures
so prove it by scriptures use the LXX version and all other like INV,KJV,NASV,NET BIBLE
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2012,03:40) Frank…………..I tell you they just do not get it brother, Something has blinded their eyes they just can not comprehend what you am i have quoted from scriptures , But when it comes to distorting the Truth to meet Pagan Metaphysical ideologies handed down by Plato and Aristotle they have no problem receiving that. Most here were educated in the teaching of the Roman Catholic or Protestant churches and these false teaching were instilled in the at a very young age so it is part of their physiological make up. Some have come part way out of these teachings but can't come completely out it seems. IMO Keep up the good work brother………………………………………………………….peace and Love …………………..gene
ALL praise be to Father Yahweh in His inspired prophetic word!
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2012,04:07) frank you cannot prove anything with opinions because those deny scriptures
so prove it by scriptures use the LXX version and all other like INV,KJV,NASV,NET BIBLE
Pierre
Pierre,This is not 'opinion', but is fact in accordance with Father Yahweh inspired prophetic word. No, the people who put out these studies ACTUALLY STUDY Scripture as they are instructed to within Scripture. It is obvious that you give reference to and are deceived by YOUR so called “church” doctrine instead of giving reference to Scripture (Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word).
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
As for the sources that you mentioned, I do use these same sources in accordance with my study of Scripture and my study of diverse religious beliefs about Scripture.
Following is a link to my web page “SCRIPTURAL RESEARCH TOOLS”:
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 22 2012,04:17) Can a spirit being die? More exactly: Can deity (a divine personage) die? If Yahshua the Messiah pre-existed as Deity, or as a Spiritual Being before the world was created, was it possible for him to die (on the tree)? Let the Scriptures answer.
Some good points here Frank. Except in the case of Jesus he partook of a human body meaning he could die. He didn't come in his previous form because he emptied himself and became flesh.Although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself, came in flesh, humbled himself, died, resurrected, and is now at the right hand of the Father in the glory that he had with him before the world began.
Remember that we have a spirit and a physical body and we can die. Immortality is likely to be tied to having a spiritual body / existing with divine nature, (form of God).
JOHN 1:1
Semantics Count
By Sidney HatchWhat does John 1:1 really say? We were discussing the person Yahshua when someone said, “'In the beginning was the word, and the word was with YHWH and the word was YHWH.' There, that proves that Yahshua was YHWH.”
John 1:1 was the Scripture quoted. It is a common assumption that this teaches the deity of Yahshua. Word” in Greek is “logos.” It occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and simply means a spoken word, a teaching, a report, etc.
John 1:1 says three things about this “logos,” or spoken word:
(1) It was in the beginning.
(2) It was with YHWH.
(3) It was YHWH.What do these remarkable statements mean?
(1) The phrase, “in the beginning,” tells us immediately that John speaks of the creation; the events described in Genesis 1:1.
(2) The spoken word of YHWH was the great force in those momentous days.
(3) To say that the word was “with YHWH” tells us that it was the spoken word of YHWH himself, not that of another person.
Here John answers the Gnostic idea that YHWH is too aloof and remote to have done the creating himself, and so did the creating through an agent. This [thoroughly Greek] idea * penetrated Christianity with the teaching that the second person of a triune YHWH did the creating. (Colossians 1:16 does not say that Yahshua created all things. It says that YHWH created all things because of Him and for Him).
To say that the spoken word was YHWH, is a Hebraic way of saying that YHWH's word was mighty and powerful. The Greek word “theos” is the equivalent of the Hebrew “elohim,” which means essentially that something is mighty or powerful.
John 1:3 tells us that the world was created by the spoken word: “All things were made by it; and without it was not anything made that was made.” This is confirmed in Psalms 33:6-9, which says YHWH spoke, and it was done, He commanded, and the world stood fast.
Finally, the 14th verse of John 1 tells us this “logos” or spoken word was made flesh, a human being, and dwelt among us. It does not say that YHWH became flesh. It says that YHWH created “flesh.” a human being, who would be His messenger or spokesman.
The purpose of the entire message in John 1:1-18 is to prove that Yahshua was YHWH's Messenger, the final expression of His purpose and will to the world. He [YHWH] was the spoken word … Hebrews 1:1-2 sums it all up when it says in times past YHWH spoke in various and fragmentary ways, espcially through the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son.”
This person (mentioned above) thinks of John 1:1 as though it reads, “In the beginning was Yahshua, and Yahshua was with YHWH, and Yahshua was YHWH.” This is indeed a popular understanding of this verse, and Christian people can ** hardly be blamed , because responsibility rest upon the shoulders of religiuos professionals who teach this. That, however, is not what it says.
An amplified paraphrase of John 1:1 would be as follows: “YHWH's spoken word was in the beginning at creation. It was His word, not the word of another, and it [His spoken word] was mighty and powerful – sufficiently powerful to create all things.”
* Voy's note:
“Logos”, a Greek word meaning speech , organization, rational order, rational relationship, or rational expression common in Greek philosophical writings” (Encyclopedia. Judaica, article: Logos).
In the “Sixth Letter,” sometime attributed to that Greek philosopher, Plato, “the son of the true god is identified as the divine governor and origin of all things present and future” (Ibid).
Does this sound familiar? It certainly does. This is the Christian view of the Nazarene who died on the tree, being son of the Supreme G-d, he (not his Father) is honored as the Creator.
Just as the early Greek and Gentile Christians retained their pagan doctrines of the immorality of the soul, of the Trinity, of the pagan holidays such as Christmas, Ester, Halloween, and Mat Day; they also retained their belief that it was the “son of the Supreme G-d” who did the actual work in creating the universe. Only one step further brought them to the analogy of identifying Yahshua as this Son who created the heavens and the earth.
** Webmaster's Scriptural references:
He also told them this parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? (Lukyah 6:39; Mattithyah [Matthew]15:13-14).
“The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
Yahchanan [John] 17:5
Assembly of Yahweh (7th Day)Do these words mean that Yahshua was personally with the Father from the very beginning? or are they expressive of the fact that Yahweh, as a wise Architect (Hebrews 11:10), foresaw the glory of His completed plan?
The latter without doubt! This is shown beyond question because of the use of similar language in the same manner.
Thus Kepha taught that Yahshua was “foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifested (made known) in these last times for you” (1 Kepha [Peter] 1:20). Yahchanan [John] describes him as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8).
Was Yahshua “slain from the foundation of the world”? Typically, yes, in the sacrifices provided; but literally, no.
In like manner, Yahweh, who knows the end from the beginning, foresaw the glory of His son Yahshua and proclaimed it through the prophets. The ultimate glory of Yahshua was in the mind and purpose of the Father from the very beginning.
He also provided for the ultimate glory of Messiah's followers, so that Yahshua prayed:
“The glory which You gave me, I have given them” (Yahchanan [John] 17:22).
Do Messiah's followers possess his glory now? They do not, they are merely “in hope” of it (cf. Romans 5:2).
How can Yahshua then claim to have given it to them? Only in the sense that he has provisionally bestowed it, foreknowing that they to whom it is given in promise will fulfil the conditions to ultimately receive it in reality.
Thus, an accepted follower at Yahshua's coming could well speak to Yahweh as Yahshua prayed to the Father:
“Glorify You me with the glory that I had (in promise) with You before world began!”
Yahweh foreknows the completed purpose, and knowing that He will bring it to consummation, is able to “call those things which be not as though they are” (Romans 4:17). Shaul taught:
“Yahweh chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, without blame before Him” (Eph. 1:4).
If John 17:5 proves the pre-existence of Yahshua, Ephesians 1:4 must prove the pre-existence of all who are followers of him!
The same language is used of other men whom Yahweh has used in a special way. Of Yeremiah it is written:
“Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations” (Yeremiah 1:5).
Does that prove the pre-existence of Yeremiah? If not, why should Yahchanan [John] 17:5 be used to teach the pre-existence of Yahshua, and so be made to conflict with many other references which speak of him as the son of David born 1900 years ago? Similar language is used of Shaul (Galatians 1:15) and others. When Yahshua returns, his accepted followers will be granted a glory similar to that bestowed upon him. They will be “conformed to the image of Father Yahweh's son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Romans 8:29).
The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92“Having this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Messiah Yahshua, who, though he was in the FORM of Elohim, did not count EQUALITY WITH YAHWEH a thing to be GRASPED, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on the tree. Therefore Yahweh has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Yahshua every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue should confess that Yahshua Messiah is Savior, to the glory of Yahweh the Father” (Phil. 2:5-11 RSV, Emphasis added).
If Yahshua Messiah did indeed pre-exist, then Philippians 2:5-11 would appear to lend support to this view, on the other hand, if he did not pre-exist, then these words must be accepted at face value, not in an extended, mysterious sense.
Since most if not all other Scriptures indicate Yahshua did not pre-exist except in Yahweh's plan, * it is my view that the words in Philippians 2:5-11 should be accepted at face value, as words are normally used in a natural sense. However, people love a mystery so much that one is sometimes invented where there is no mystery. Let us compare these opposite views.
o The mysterious view:
Before becoming man, Yahshua was Deity, equal with Yahweh (or nearly so), totally like Yahweh in every respect, but gave up his Deity, by changing himself from Deity (that which can not die) to a human being (which can and must die), and occupied a human form. He emptied himself, becoming a servant to the human race, then humbled himself even more and died on the tree. He has now been highly exalted by the Father.o The straight-forward view:
Yahshua [like all men], was made in the likeness and in the image [the form] of Yahweh. He did not count equality with Yahweh a thing to be GRASPED (ruthlessly seized). Being in human form (as are all men), he emptied himself and became a servant to the human race, then humbled himself even more and died on the tree. he has now been highly exalted by the Father.Verse six holds the key to the understanding of Paul's message. The Roman Catholic view however, is expressed in this way:
“Though he had always existed as G-d, yet he did not grasp at this equality with G-d” (Phil. 2:6 Norlie Version).
It is not true, of course, that Yahshua was (or is) “equal with Yahweh.” Yahshua reported to his disciples, “… my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28; 4:34; 10:29; 13:16; 15:20).
Nor has Yahshua “always existed as G-d.” On the contrary, Scriptures inform us there is
o Only ONE true El (Eph. 4:4,5; 1 Tim. 2:5 Bethel Edition).
o Only ONE true Elohim (Deut. 4:35,39; 1 Tim 1:17 Bethel Ed.).
o Only ONE true Yahweh (Neh. 9:5; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 43:10,11; 44:6; 45:5,6,18). These are one and the same person, the Father.This being the case, we can forget the Roman Catholic view that Yahshua has “always existed as G-d.” The KIng James Version, the RSV, and and a number of others do not convey the message that Yahshua has always existed as Deity, as does the Norlie Version.
Phil. 2:6. Being in the “FORM OF Elohim” is not necessarily identical to “being Elohim.” In this case, there is a vast difference. Adam was created in the image and likeness of Yahweh and we, being sons of Adam, are also formed in the likeness and image (form, shape) of Yahweh. This is indicated in Scripture:
“Then Elohim said, let us make man in our 88 IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS; … So Elohim created man in HIS own IMAGE, in the IMAGE of Elohim HE created him …” (Gen. 1:26,27 RSV).
Just as other men are made in the image (shape, form) of Yahweh, so Yahshua too, was made (formed) in Yahweh's image. The Tyndale Version of 1534 reads, “… Ch-ist J-sus: Which being in the shape of G-d, …” (Phil. 2:6).
This explains why Yahshua was “found in human FORM” (Phil. 2:8), and in the LIKENESS of men” (Phil. 2:7); as well as, in the FORM of El” (Phil. 2:6). Man is made in the image, the form, of Yahweh. Let us now review, point by point, the evidence given by the Apostle Paul:
Phil. 2:6. Like other men, Yahshua was in the form (image, shape) of Elohim. Perhaps there were in Paul's day those who claimed that Yahshua was not really a human being, but was Divine (that is, Deity). If so, verses 7-9 should have dispelled this notion.
Phil 2:6. Yahshua felt that he should not try to GRASP (seize illegally) equality with Elohim. Does this refer to a time BEFORE he lived as a man; a time when he is assumed to have pre-existed as Deity? No. This evidently speaks of a time after his resurrection from the dead.
Phil. 2:7. Yahshua was BORN in the LIKENESS of men (Gal. 4:4; Heb. 2:11,12,16; Luke 2:11; Mt. 1:18; 2:1).
Phil. 2:7. Yahshua took the FORM (shape, likeness) of a slave. Was this before, or after, his birth to Mary? It was only after. It was after he was BORN as a human being that he took the roll of a servant; as one who serves (Luke 22:7).
Phil. 2:7. Yahshua EMPTIED himself. Are we to assume this refers to a time when Yahshua gave up Deity to become a man? No. This refers to his denial of the pleasures and longings of a normal, physical life (wife, children, family, home, and finally his death on the tree), so that he could better fulfill his mission as a prospective Redeemer. There is no allusion to the supposed giving up of a former life as a Deity in the heavens. There is only ONE true Deity, remember. This one true El is Yahweh the Father (Rom. 16:27; John 5:44, Bethel Edition). ***
Phil. 2:8. Being found in HUMAN FORM, as are all men, Yahshua humbled himself and became obedient, even to the death on the tree. This is absolute proof that Yahshua was not, originally, a Deity (an El); because the very meaning and essence of Deity is an indestructible life. It is impossible for a true El to die. Spiritual beings are not subject to death (Gen. 21:33; Deut. 32:40,41; Isa. 40:28, Bethel Edition). *** Deity and death are opposite and contradictory terms. Spiritual beings possess INDESTRUCTIBLE life (Heb. 7:16 RSV). therefore Yahshua, who was dead for 72 hours, did not at any time exist as a divine person (a Deity, an El), BEFORE his resurrection from the dead (Heb. 7:16).
Phil. 2:9. There fore (meaning, “for this reason;” that is; his people {Verse 8}), For this reason Yahweh has highly exalted Yahshua. When? BEFORE he lived as a man? No. According to the Apostle Peter and Paul, he was highly exalted AFTER his resurrection from the dead (Rom.1:3,4; Acts 2:33; 5:31).
Phil 2:9. Yahshua has been given a name above every name. Since many others have had the name “Yahshua,” this consist of greater honor that is implied by the name alone, For example: By his RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, Yahshua has been DECLARED to be all of the following and more:
(1) The SON of Yahweh (Rom. 1:4; Heb. 1:4,5).
(2) The promised MESSIAH (Acts 2:36).
(3) Yahweh's anointed (Acts 4:26 RSV).
(4) A PRINCE and a SAVIOR (Acts 5:31; 13:23).
(5) Our Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7).
(6) The Mediator between mankind and the heavenly Father (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 9:15; 12:24).If he had not arose from the dead he would have filled none of these offices. Until that momentous event, these were only planed for him – from ancient times.
Phil 2:10,11. Every knee in heaven and on earth shall bow to Yahshua, and every tongue will confess that he is the Messiah, etc.
Objections
Objections may be voiced from the statement above, Yahshua did not try to grasp (seize illegally) equality with Yahweh” (Phil. 2:6). Other versions indicate this is the correct understanding, as can be noted in the following quotations:
o “… he did not regard equality with G-d something to be POSSESSED BY FORCE” The Jewish New Testa
ment).o “…yet he did not think to SNATCH AT equality with G-d, …” (New English Bible).
o “… but he did not think that BY FORCE he should try to become equal with G-d, …” (Good News Bible).
o “Who, being in the form of Elohim did NOT strive to claim for himself equality with Yahweh: …” (Holy Name Bible).
o “… who, although he was existing in G-d's form, gave no consideration to a SEIZURE, namely, that he should be equal with G-d” (New World Translation).
Conclusion
Having carefully examined Philippians 2:5-11, we see there is no mystery. The evidence does not indicate that Yahshua pre-existed as Deity (or as an angel) before he lived as a man. Instaed, the language is plain and to the point, stating that Yahshua (like other men), was formed in the likeness (the shape) of the Most High Father, Yahweh.
Yahshua did not try to prematurely to seize by force a coveted position in the heavens, but awaited the Father's pleasure. He first enduring the sufferings on the tree and, only later, enjoyed being highly exalted by the Father.
“Searching what, or what manner of TIME the Spirit of Messiah which was in them did SIGNIFY when it testified beforehand the SUFFERINGS OF MESSIAH and the GLORY that was to FOLLOW” (1 Peter 1:11 KJV).
We can give thanks to both Yahshua Messiah, and to Yahweh the heavenly Father for their great and lasting love to mankind.
Halleluyah!
* We have about 40 separate articles dealing with the pre-existence. ASK FOR THEM.
** Ask for the paper explaining the use of “us & our” in Genesis 1:26.
*** Ask for our leaflet, “Elohim: Singular Or Plural?”
**** Ask for the papers, “Can a Spiritual Being Die?,” and, “Yahshua: Yahweh of the O.T.?”
Addendum: Phil. 2:6
“Who, being in the form of G-d, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY to be equal with G-d; …” (Phil 2:6 KJV).
“Who, though he was in the form of G-d, did not count equality with G-d a thing to be GRASPED” (RSV).
Ben Wilson (Diaglott); “… did not meditate a usurpation to be like G-d.”
Footnote in The Diaglott.
The Greek word, “harpagmon, being a word of very rare occurrence, a great variety of translations have been given. The following may serve as examples:
Clarke 'Who … did not think it a matter to be earnestly desired.'
Cyprian 'Did not earnestly effect.'
Wakefield ' Did not think of eagerly retaining.'
Stuart 'Did not regard – as an object of solicitous desire.'
Sharpe 'Thought not – a thing to be seized.'
Kneeland 'Did not eagerly grasp.'
Dickinson 'Did not violently strive.'
Turnbull 'Did not meditate a usurpation'”Other Translations
o “… he laid no claim to equality with God” (REB).
o “… did not regard equality with G-d something to be possessed by force” (The Jewish N.T.).
o “… did not think to snatch at equality with G-d” (NEB)
o “… did not think by force he should try to become equal with G-d” (Good News Bible)
o “… did not strive to claim for himself equality with Yahweh” (Holy Name Bible).
o “… who, … gave no consideration to seizure, namely that he should be equal with G-d” (NWT).
o “… did not reckon His equality with G-d a treasure to be tightly grasped” (The Weymouth New Testament Online Bible [WEY]).
o “… did not think this equality with G-d was a thing to be grasped or retained' (Amplified Bible).
o “… did not deem equality with G-d something to be grasped at” (NAB).
o “… did not regard equality with G-d a thing to be grasped” (NASB).
o “… did not consider equality with G-d something to be grasped” (NIV).
o “… counted not the being on equality with Yahweh a thing to be grasped. …” (Bethel Edition).
o “… Counted not the being on an equality with G-d a thing to be grasped; …” (ASV).
o “… Not a thing to be seized accounted the being equal with G-d. …” (Emphasised Bible).
o “… did not regard equality with G-d as something to be exploited” (RSV)
Do You Have An Immortal Soul?
By Frank Brown
As promised, here is an article that fits more in the category of “milk of the Word,” for those of you who are just beginning to seriously study the Bible, which is Yahweh’s book of instruction for mankind.
Paul, in I Cor. 3:2, told the Corinthians that he had fed them with “milk, and not with meat,” because they were yet “carnal,” and unable to accept the meatier, or deeper subjects of Yahweh’s Word.
The writer of Hebrews says basically the same thing (Heb. 5:11-14). The apostle Peter says that we are to lay aside our carnality and become as “newborn babes,” desiring the sincere milk of the Word, “that ye may grow thereby:” (I Peter 2:2).
When we first begin to learn Yahweh’s truths, we have to separate those Biblical truths from man’s traditions of myths, lies and false doctrines that we were all brought up in. Some are bewildered by the realization that all our lives, we have been the victims of Satan’s deception.
When we discover that much of what we have held near and dear, thinking it came out of the Bible, is in reality only a myth, there is sometimes a mixture of anger and resentment toward our former religious teachers for teaching us error., And, at the same time, a sense of relief and thankfulness that at last we are beginning to understand for ourselves.
And such is the subject we have chosen to discuss today. One of the most cherished beliefs among Christians and others, is that humanity is endowed with an immortal soul that flits off to heaven when we die if we have been “good,” or to hell if we have been “bad.”
This belief generally assumes that the saved will spend eternity in heaven, either looking up into the Master’s face adoringly, like a good doggy, or floating around on a cloud in the heavens, plucking soulfully on a golden harp for eons without end, and with not much else to do.
While this is going on, the lost souls will be plunged to the center of the earth, Satan’s domain, to spend an unending future sizzling and frying in eternal flames of hell, in excruciating pain and agony.
Is this, or a slight variation, what you have been led to believe? Is this your idea of the future? Do you worship a Mighty Creator who has planned such a future for you and your loved ones? Do you think such ideas came out of the Bible? Yes? Then prepare to be shocked and pleasantly surprised.
First, if you believe something similar to the above scenario, please, right now, go somewhere and pray to your Creator that He will open your eyes to understand His Word, the Bible. Next, get your Bible out, blow the dust off of it, and look up the Scriptures we are going to be studying. Then study them. Look up others on the same subject. There are so many scriptures relating to this, that we can’t possibly cover them all in this short article.
Let’s begin at the beginning, the Book of Genesis. In chapter 1 we read of the creation of the first man and woman (vv. 26-27). Then chapter 2 gives more detail of this creation. Verse 7 tells us that Yahweh formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Hebrew Ruach, meaning AIR) and man became a living soul. Notice it does not say Yahweh put a soul into the man, but that the man Adam became a living soul. He was a soul – not that he had a soul living inside him.
This word, soul, is translated from the original Hebrew word, “nephesh,” Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary word #5315, which means “properly a breathing creature, i.e. animal or (abstract) vitality; — any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature” –, etc.
In fact, this same word, nephesh, is translated “creature” in Gen. 1:21, 24; and 2:19, and refers to animals, land animals and beasts of the sea. Again, in Gen. 9, verses 10, 12, 15 and 16, this word is translated as “creature” and refers to both man and beast. So it is just as accurate and proper to refer to an animal as a “soul,” as it is to refer to a human being this way. Absolutely nothing denoting immortality is stated or implied here.
Then where did such an idea come from? How could man have gotten the idea that he HAS an immortal soul, rather than that he IS a soul; a living, breathing, fleshly being?
Turn to Genesis chapter 3, and let’s read about the first recorded lie in history, and see who told it. Read this for yourself. I’m going to paraphrase parts of it.
The serpent was more subtil (Subtle: elusive, cunning, crafty) than any beasts which Yahweh had made. This is that “old serpent” of Revelation 12:9, that has deceived the whole world. And notice, he said to the woman (the weaker vessel, 1 Pet. 3:7), “Yea, did Elohim say, ‘ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?’” Of course He did, and Satan knew it! He was setting the stage to trap Eve; to create within her desire, lust, envy, greed.
Instead of fleeing this talking salesman–er–I mean serpent, Eve carried on a conversation with it. “We may eat fruit of any tree in the garden except this one in the middle. Yahweh says we will die if we eat it, or even touch it.”
Now the infamous 4th verse: And the serpent said unto the woman, “Ye shall NOT surely die. V.5, For Elohim doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as Elohim, knowing good and evil.” And then the woman began to desire this fruit above all the fruit in the garden. She became greedy for it; she was envious of Yahweh for withholding it, and she lusted for it so much, that she finally reached out and stole it.
Just think! Here was a large garden, filled with trees, bushes, vines, plants of all kinds, most of which were probably loaded with fruit, and she could have her choice of ANY of them (Gen. 2:16), EXCEPT this one lone tree which stood in the middle of the garden. And which one did Eve want? Why, that one, naturally.
Yahweh owned them all, and freely gave them ALL to the man and woman, with this one exception. He reserved it to Himself because it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and they were not ready for this knowledge.
So she pulled the fruit, took a bite and gave one to Adam who was with her. And from that moment on, their lives were changed forever. Their family life became one tragedy after another for the rest of their lives.
But their life story is not my point here. Satan’s lie is the point. He told them, in effect, that they were immortal; that they had an immortal soul and could not die. Furthermore, he said Yahweh had lied to them, and Eve apparently believed it.
Liars are a sad lot. Some do it for personal gain; some lie to influence people to their way of thinking, or to get them to do as they wish; some lie to build themselves up in the eyes of those lied to; and some, it’s said, would pay to tell a lie even if they could tell the truth for free. Satan’s purpose was to cause man to sin, thus thwarting Yahweh’s plan for mankind (or so he hoped).
This lie that Satan told Eve was the grand-daddy of all lies, since it is, incredibly, still being believed by millions of people today, 6,000 years later. Almost every religion on earth has adopted some form of this “immortal soul” doctrine into their belief system. And without one scripture in the entire Bible to back it up, believe it or not!
The truth of the Scriptures is that the Resurrection of the just is our hope of eternal life. When we die, we rest in our graves until the resurrection. The righteous who have already died or who will die before Yahshua returns, will be resurrected as spirit beings and will rule and reign with their Elder Brother and King, Yahshua the Messiah, in the Kingdom of Yahweh. Those alive at that time, will be changed instantly from flesh to spirit.
Everyone else will be in the second resurrection, and those who refuse to repent will be cast into the Lake of Fire at the time of the end to be burned up and destroyed, not tortured forever.
Everyone who has ever lived will have one chance for salvation.There are many scriptures which verify what I have just said, so let’s examine some of them. Please keep an open mind and be willing to accept new truth, if you see it from the Scriptures themselves, and that it is not just what some man says.
As noted at the beginning of this article, the word “soul” refers to living, breathing beings, both animal and human. It does not refer in any way to a spirit being living within our bodies or minds that is the real us, and that is released at death to go to heaven or hell to spend eternity.
Acts 24:14-15, “But this I confess unto you, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: and have hope toward Yahweh, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”
These are the Apostle Paul’s words. Yahshua said something similar in John 5:28-29, “…the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his (the Son of Man’s) voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (Judgment).
Some, recognizing that resurrection is indisputably taught in the Bible, try to have it both ways. “We float off to heaven when we die,” they say, “then, at the resurrection, our souls are crammed back into that old diseased body.” But ask them where the logic is in this, and they simply shrug and say something like, “we’ll understand it all bye and bye.”
But the Bible can be understood now. We don’t have to wait; all we have to do is believe what we read. But that is where the problem arises. You see, people try to make their preconceived notions fit the Bible, instead of letting the Bible correct them.
Scripture says the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything (Eccl. 9:5). Verse 10 adds: Whatsoever thy hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”
Eccl. 3:19-21 tells us, “For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all return to dust again. Who know the spirit of man that goes upward, and the spirit of the beast that goes downward to the earth?
“See,” some will say, “it says right there that man’s spirit goes up. That must be the soul going to heaven.” No, that word means “breath.” The Hebrew word is “ruach” and simply means the breath of life, the same as Yahweh breathed into Adam when He created him.
Psalm 146:4, speaking of mortal man, says, His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
I have attended many funerals where the speaker would say something like this, “Don’t grieve over the departed. Of course you will miss him (or her), but they are now up in heaven, joyfully happy and looking down on us.”
If that is true, then these Scriptures just quoted are nothing but lies. Shall we believe the Bible, or some man’s ideas about it? The answer is obvious, isn’t it? If the Bible is not true, then none of us have any hope of salvation.
Paul said, in I Cor. 15:13-14, …if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Messiah not risen, and if He be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
Verses 17-22, And if Messiah be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Messiah are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Messiah, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead, for as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive.
Paul goes on in 1 Cor. 15:51-52: Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[/I]
Paul is saying that there will be some still alive when Yahshua returns to gather His elect, but those who have died beforehand (and are resting in their graves, knowing nothing), will be raised to life – Spirit life. Verse 53 says we must put on immortality. It is not something we already have.
Immortality is something we seek for, not something we have inherently within ourselves. Romans 2:7: To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
1 Tim. 6:14-16 reminds us that Yahshua only has immortality at this time: That you keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Master, Yahshua the Messiah: which in His times He shall show, who is the blessed and only potentate, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords: who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach to—.
The Apostle John informs us (1 John 3:15) that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Ezekiel tells us twice that the soul that sins will die (if he does not repent). Eze. 18:4 and 18:20 both state, ..”the soul that sinneth it shall die.” The New Testament book of Romans, chapter 6 and verse 23 verifies this:
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of Yahweh is eternal life through Yahshua the Messiah our Master.
“But what about all the scriptures that tell us we are going to heaven when we die? Or to a place of eternal torment called hell, if we are bad?” Well, shocking as it may seem to some, there aren’t any!
But there are a few that seem to say something like this, especially to those looking for support for a belief they already hold. Let’s examine some of those.
Probably the most famous is found in John 14:2-3, In my Father’s house are many mansions (this word can be translated as rooms, abodes, jobs, or offices): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
He is now gone away (to heaven), to prepare these mansions, positions, offices, jobs, etc for us. Now note very carefully. When He comes again, where will He be? Here, of course. He will receive us to Himself here, because that is where He will be. The day He returns, after gathering the saints from the “uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven,” His feet will descend on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem (Zech. 14:1-4 and Rev. 14:1), and Law will go forth from Jerusalem (Zion), Isaiah 2:3 and Micah 4:2). This is the beginning of Yahweh’s 1,000-year Kingdom on this Earth, to be ruled over by Yahshua and those resurrected saints who will share His throne (Rev. 2:26-27 and 3:21).
Yahshua, in the Sermon on the Mount (Mat. 5:12), said, “Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:” But He did not say we go there to get it. Just the opposite. He will bring our reward with Him when He returns.
You see, that reward is reserved in heaven for us (1 Peter 1:3-4, Blessed be the Mighty One and Father of our Master, Yahshua the Messiah, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Yahshua Messiah from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you).
He will give it to us when He returns (Isaiah 40:10, Behold, the Sovereign Yahweh will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is wi
th Him). This is reiterated in Rev. 22:12, where Yahshua says, “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”Yahshua said no man had ascended to heaven, except Himself, who came down from heaven (John 3:13). In Acts 2:34, the Holy Spirit-filled Apostle Peter, on the day of Pentecost in 31 CE, declared that even David ( a man after Yahweh’s own heart, Acts 13:22), is not ascended into the heavens.
Revelation 20:4-6 tells us that we will reign with Messiah in His kingdom for a thousand years, and Revelation 5:10 tells us this will take place right here on this earth.
Then what about the wicked, some are wondering. Surely they go to an ever-burning hell to be punished? We have already seen scriptures showing that the wicked die. But some say “death merely means separation from God.” But is this true? Not according to the Bible. Let’s take another look at Revelation 20: Verse 4 shows the first resurrection, as verse 5 says.
But verse 5 also reveals that at the end of the 1,000 year period, there will be another resurrection. This is the beginning of the Final judgment, also called the Great White Throne Judgment (v. 11-12), and those whose names are not found written in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire (verses 13-15). This is called the second death (verse 14 and Rev. 2:11).
Malachi 4 (the last book in the Old Testament) explains what will happen to those sinners who refuse to repent during this end-time: Verses 1-3: For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Yahweh of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch (No immortal soul left sizzling in “hell”).
But unto you that fear My Name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up (frolic) as calves of the stall.
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith Yahweh of hosts.
These scriptures fit in with Mat. 25:46, which is speaking of those unrepentant sinners who will be cast into the lake of fire. “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
They are not going into everlasting punishing, you see, but punishment. They will be burned completely up, suffering the second death for all eternity. Their memory will soon be forgotten. Eccl. 9:5 again, “For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
The concept of an immortal soul within a human body arose from Satan’s attempt to confuse mankind and cause him to falsely worship Satan by obeying his doctrines instead of following Yahweh’s commandments. The idea of “hell” as a place of eternal torture came not from the Bible but from the pen of an ancient writer named Dante Alighieri, who wrote a book called, “The Divine Comedy.” He was not a theologian, but a poet and writer, among other things. This idea came out of his head, not the Bible.
In scripture, the word translated “hell” most often simply means “the grave.” So in that sense, almost all of us do go to “hell” when we die. But we simply rest there in our graves until Yahshua comes to call us out. Even the Old Testament patriarch Job recognized this fact.
Job 19:25, I know that my Redeemer lives, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the Earth:
Job 14:12-15, So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that you would hide me in the grave, that you would keep me secret until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time and remember me. If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shall call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
To conclude, we see that man IS a soul; he does not HAVE an immortal soul dwelling in him. The words, “immortal soul” do not appear in the Bible. This is a pagan belief, pure and simple. The word “soul” in the Bible is used to denote a living, breathing creature, either human or animal. “Souls” can and do die.
To escape the second death in the lake of fire, we must repent of our sins, accept the death of Yahshua the Messiah to pay for those sins, have faith that He is alive and will save us from the second death. Then we must be obedient to Yahweh’s Commandments (Acts 2:38 and 5:32). In this way, we will be granted immortality at His coming.
There is much more, but maybe these scriptures will get you started searching for the truth that will set you free. John 8:32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Free from what? From Satan’s wiles and lies; from the deceptions of the world and its religions, and free from sin that enslaves us.
Romans 6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? HalleluYah!.
John 1 Properly Translated by the Late Professor of the Exegesis of Holy Scripture at the University of Oxford
Some people say, “I don't need scholars. I just read my Bible.” This statement contains a hidden fallacy. The Bible you read (unless you are reading the Greek and Hebrew) comes to you via a scholar or scholars who have decided to translate it in a certain way. But you may not know that other equally distinguished linguists and scholars offer a very different understanding. Many think that John 1:1, 2, 14 mean “In the beginning was the Word – that is, the Son of God – and the Son was with God and all things were made by him, the Son…and the Son became flesh.”
But here is what John really intended according to other scholars and based on John's very Jewish background in the Hebrew Bible:
“In the beginning was the purpose, the purpose in the mind of God, the purpose which was God's own being… this purpose took human form in Jesus of Nazareth” (G.B. Caird, New Testament Theology, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995, p. 332).
This translation avoids the appalling complexities of Trinitarianism, which no one can explain. John did not teach that the Son was alive before his birth. What “preexisted” was a Purpose – God's logos, or Purpose – not the Son. The Son first came into being when he was created as the Second Adam in the womb of his mother Mary – by miracle. He is indeed the promised “seed of the woman.” The Jewish people believed only in preexisting Purposes, not in preexisting Persons. The capital W on Word in your Bible comes to you because of the decision of a scholar, who expects John to teach that the word was a Person preexisting. There is no such capital letter in the Greek text of John – and no need to think of the word as other than a “word/promise/purpose.” Word had occurred 1655 times in the Old Testament and never meant a Person, not once! “As a man thinks, so is he.” “As God thinks and plans, so is He.” Thus “the word was God and all things came into being through the word.”
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2012,03:40) Frank…………..I tell you they just do not get it brother, Something has blinded their eyes they just can not comprehend what you am i have quoted from scriptures , But when it comes to distorting the Truth to meet Pagan Metaphysical ideologies handed down by Plato and Aristotle they have no problem receiving that. Most here were educated in the teaching of the Roman Catholic or Protestant churches and these false teaching were instilled in the at a very young age so it is part of their physiological make up. Some have come part way out of these teachings but can't come completely out it seems. IMO Keep up the good work brother………………………………………………………….peace and Love …………………..gene
Gene,Following is a great study on what we have been saying:
[PDF] THE “LOGOS” IN JOHN’S PROLOGUE
‘THE LOGOS’ MISAPPLIED
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