Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,17:57)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 22 2011,10:30)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,17:11)

EDJ

Why are you question this ,you know that Mike and me do not believe that the holy spirit his the word,

This believe of yours will prevent you to understand deeper thing in scriptures,

Pierre

Hi Pierre,

Like what?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

I do not know

but looking it this way;if you make a puzzle and if i take away a few pieces would you come to a complete view of the puzzel picture ?? NO

Pierre

December 22, 2011 at 5:53 am#268889

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 22 2011,15:48)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,17:57)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 22 2011,10:30)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,17:11)

EDJ

Why are you question this ,you know that Mike and me do not believe that the holy spirit his the word,

This believe of yours will prevent you to understand deeper thing in scriptures,

Pierre

Hi Pierre,

Like what?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

I do not know

but looking it this way;if you make a puzzle and if i take away a few pieces would you come to a complete view of the puzzel picture ?? NO

Pierre

Hi Pierre,

So you admit that you don't understand deeper thing in scriptures?
Yet you want to apply your lack of understanding to me?
Seems a bit odd that you would believe this?

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 22, 2011 at 6:09 am#268890

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2011,21:52)

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 22 2011,07:11)

I John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

T8……….Maybe this will help you being you quoted it.

! John 1:1-3………> I will paraphrase it for you and please notice what i put in Quotations marks.

That which was from “THE” beginning which we have “HEARD”, which we have Seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the “WORD” of LIFE.- 2 and the “LIFE” was made manifest, (IN) Jesus Christ, (now notice T8) and we have seen “IT”, and testify to “IT” and proclaim to you (THE) ETERNAL LIFE, which was “WITH” the FATHER and was made manifest “TO US” (IN) Christ Jesus- 3 that which we have seen and “HEARD” we proclaim “ALSO” to you, So that you too, may have fellowship is with the FATHER (AND) with his Son Jesus Christ. Who GOD the FATHER who is the WORD that was (IN) the MAN Jesus.

T8 notice the “IT”S there , John did not say He or Jesus now did he?, The “IT” is the WORD of GOD that was (IN) the man Jesus . Remember when Jesus said the WORDS i am telling you (ARE) SPIRIT (AND) LIFE> The Word or LOGOS which was God the FATHER was (IN) Jesus and the disciples understood that, That is the “IT” John was talking about there not Jesus as the “IT”. But the LOGOS that came to be (IN) the Flesh man Jesus. Another point is Jesus was Not from “THE” BEGINNING, GOD the FATHER was FROM the BEGINNING T8, Not Jesus.

Forcing the text to say what in fact it is not truly saying is wrong T8. Reread it closely as see if what i am telling you is true or not brother. I know it goes against you preconceived learning and past teachings but look at it honestly and without being prejudiced. brother. T8 just believe what Jesus said many time “THE FATHER IS (IN) ME” , you have yet not come to see and believe that . IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

Gene,
Sorry to intrude but I believe the 'it' is in reference to the 'life.' Read the passage in the NASB and that should help:

1What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— 2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

As you can see, the NASB does not use the pronoun and therefore shows the intent of the passage more clearly. The pronoun is not in the Greek either but supplied by some translators from what I can tell anyway. If you need help to verify that then please ask.

Kathi

December 22, 2011 at 6:13 am#268891

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,22:53)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 22 2011,15:48)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,17:57)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 22 2011,10:30)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,17:11)

EDJ

Why are you question this ,you know that Mike and me do not believe that the holy spirit his the word,

This believe of yours will prevent you to understand deeper thing in scriptures,

Pierre

Hi Pierre,

Like what?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

I do not know

but looking it this way;if you make a puzzle and if i take away a few pieces would you come to a complete view of the puzzel picture ?? NO

Pierre

Hi Pierre,

So you admit that you don't understand deeper thing in scriptures?
Yet you want to apply your lack of understanding to me?
Seems a bit odd that you would believe this?

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

I am glad you take it that way

Pierre

December 22, 2011 at 6:15 am#268893

Participant

Hi Pierre,

Is there any other way to take what you said?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 22, 2011 at 11:07 am#268906

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,23:15)

Hi Pierre,

Is there any other way to take what you said?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ

Yes there is but not for you,

December 22, 2011 at 4:11 pm#268965

Participant

Quote (abe @ Dec. 22 2011,15:46)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2011,13:52)

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 22 2011,07:11)

T8……….Maybe this will help you being you quoted it.

! John 1:1-3………> I will paraphrase it for you and please notice what i put in Quotations marks.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

Hi Gene Gal.3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, ” And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one. “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. Is Christ and Jesus the same?

abe……………No they are not the Same The Christ or CHRISTOS is the Anointing SPIRIT that was ON Jesus producing the LOGOS or Words he spoke , they were not the same thing, Jesus was a human just you and I are, and the LOGOS or Spirit of GOD was truly (IN) him and can also be Just as equally (IN) YOU and I . Making Jesus the Being out himslef as being the LOGOS is the very greatest LIE ever Told in Christianity.

abe…………this is what is meant by an the word became flesh, (IT) did when (IT) came into Jesus our Lord b ut better our Brother.

peace and love to you and your abe……………………………….gene

December 22, 2011 at 4:12 pm#268966

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,15:45)

Hi Gene,

2 Cor 5:18-19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us The Word(HolySpirit) of reconciliation.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but
of incorruptible (Luke 8:11), by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

ED J……………..Right on brother.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene

December 22, 2011 at 4:17 pm#268967

Participant

Lightenup……….Yes the (IT) is LIFE and (IT) is SPIRIT, just as Jesus said (IT) WAS. and that (IT) was (IN) Jesus. and the (IT) was the Father that was (IN) the MAN Jesus and can be (IN) us also. People want to make Jesus the (IT) that was (IN) Him . This is where false religion get its start. Jesus said, i don't know how many times, the the FATHER WAS TRULY (IN) him. but when are people going to start to truly believe him. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………gene

December 22, 2011 at 8:02 pm#268977

Lightenup

Participant

Hi Gene,
Gene,
Jesus said that He/Jesus was in the Father and that both of them would dwell in believers. A non-deity spirit cannot be at more than one place at one time or in another person. The Father and Son's can.

God bless ya,
Kathi

December 23, 2011 at 1:24 pm#269071

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 23 2011,13:02)

God bless ya,
Kathi

kathi

you are wrong any true Christian will be in the father and so plan

because they participate in it ,so they all can be one ,and no one as to climb in the other this is ridicule only people that do not understand scriptures says that .
NU 14:15 “Now if You slay this people as one man, then the nations who have heard of Your fame will say

JDG 20:11 Thus all the men of Israel were gathered against the city, united as one man.

JDG 20:8 Then all the people arose as one man, saying, “Not one of us will go to his tent, nor will any of us return to his house.

1SA 11:7 He took a yoke of oxen and cut them in pieces, and sent them throughout the territory of Israel by the hand of messengers, saying, “ Whoever does not come out after Saul and after Samuel, so shall it be done to his oxen.” Then the dread of the LORD fell on the people, and they came out as one man.

NE 8:1 And all the people gathered as one man at the square which was in front of the Water Gate, and they asked Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the LORD had given to Israel.

see Kathi an whole nation can be one MAN ,

Pierre

December 23, 2011 at 1:55 pm#269073

Participant

Lightenup…………..> Pierre is right about this God can be in all and through all. God the Father is spirit and indwells his creation , that is what Jesus meant when he said I (IN) You and YOU (IN) Me, if that one spirit exists in you and Jesus and others , then you would be (IN) Me and (IN) Jesus and (IN) the Father also and they and Me would be (IN) you also, by that ONE and that SAME Spirit (INTELLECT). It just that simple, Therefore it says God was (IN) Christ Jesus reconciling the World unto (HIMSELF) If that same spirit is in you that was (IN) The anointed Jesus that raised Jesus from the grave (IT) will also quicken you mortal (BODY). and again “Let this mind be (IN) you that was (IN) Christ Jesus our Lord “. (IT) is the SAME LOGOS that was (IN) Jesus the Anointed of GOD no different LOGOS but the same one and if it abides in you then you are accounted as a JOINT HEIR with Jesus our LORD and Better yet OUR BROTHER who is the FIRST “BORN” in the Family of GOD from among Mankind.

Remember when Jesus told the disciples that the comforter would be sent unto them to be (IN) them forever, He also said it was with them when he was there and would not come and be (IN) them becasue it was already there (IN) Jesus, Speaking through Him unto the World. This Spirit was Poured out one the World on the Day of Pentecost, Just as it says in Joel God said “I shall pour forth of my Spirit upon all Flesh” That is the LOGOS of GOD put into our Hearts by the same spirit that was (IN) Jesus our LORD and Better YET OUR BROTHER> IMO

Peace and Love to you and yours……………………………gene

December 23, 2011 at 6:18 pm#269103

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,14:41)

Frank

Quote

Pierre,

How about searching the Scriptures to find the Scripture that says that Yahshua said he was a man and that he had the same origin as his brethren.

I also take it that you completely ignored the article that I just posted previously entitled “YAHSHUA'S ORIGIN – One Among Many Brethren” by Voy Wilks, right?

all the following scriptures are talking and saying that Christ was either send or came from God ,their are many more scriptures ,so I asck from you to respond to each of those scriptures and tell me that what it says is not what it means and that you have no scriptures to backup your theory but that it is logical to see it the way you see it because it make that much better sens,than what scriptures are saying ,
Matthew 22:41-46 NIV
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

John 1:1-3 NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

John 1:9-12 NIV
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

John 1:14 NIV
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:15 NWT
15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)

John 3:13 NIV
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

John 3:16-19 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

John 5:19-20 NIV
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.

John 6:32-33 NIV
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

John 6:35 NIV
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:38 NIV
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

John 6:41-42 NIV
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

John 6:46 NIV
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 6:48-51 NIV
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 6:62 NIV
62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

John 8:12 NIV
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 8:23 NIV
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:38 NIV
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

John 8:42 NET
Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me.”

John 8:58 NWT
58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

John 9:5 NIV
While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

John 16:28 NIV
“I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

John 17:5 NRSV
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

when you done doing just that then I will know where you standing in Gods word .

thank you

Pierre

Pierre,

I have already made it known in previous posts what these Scripture references mean. Following is a link to an article explaining this:

Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
By Voy Wilks
1990 – Revised 1993

December 23, 2011 at 6:21 pm#269104

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2011,19:52)

Pierre, apparently these are all translated wrong, well according to Frank and Gene.

The oldest trick in the book is to say that it is wrong because it is all mistranslated. Let me see. The Atheist could teach that the bible teaches there is no God and all the verses that allude to a God are mistranslated. Or all the verses that teach that Jesus is the messiah are mistranslated.

It is amazing what Gene and Frank think they can get away with using that lame excuse. Worse than that, they do not even provide evidence to show that all these verses are mistranslated.

That is why I can't take them seriously. I gave Gene a chance but his evidence was very poor IMO, and Frank, well for all I know he is a rogue spambot program that scrapes other site's content and posts it to forums. The best contribution Frank supplies is the humour he exudes whether he intends it as humour or not, I do not know.

t8,

I have never said that these Scriptures are translated wrong! Please stop bearing false witness against what I have said.

December 23, 2011 at 6:29 pm#269105

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,07:26)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,12:00)

Is Not Christ The Firstborn?

At this point the reader might become a little impatient, and desire to press upon our attention Bible references that seem to give some support to the pre-existence theory.

We are not ignorant of those passages, but claim that none of them give support to the theory if they are properly interpreted. It is unfortunately true, however, as the Bible itself states, that some take passages of Scripture that are “hard to be understood” and proceed to “wrest them unto their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16).

Such a reference is Colossians 1:15. It describes Jesus Christ as “the firstborn of every creature,” and some have advanced this in support of the pre-existence theory. If Jesus is firstborn, he must have existed before all others, they claim.

But does not that set Scripture against Scripture? If he is literally “firstborn” in the sense implied by the theory, how can the Bible claim that he is the “son of Abraham and David” (Matthew 1:1)?

And consider the statement itself: “firstBORN of every creature.” Does not that demand a mother? Who was the mother who gave birth to him before all others?

These difficulties are solved, and the passage simply and beautifully explained, when the Bible doctrine of the “firstborn” is understood. In the Bible, “firstborn” is a legal term, describing pre-eminence of position or status, though not necessarily of birth. There were special privileges granted the legal firstborn in a family. He represented his father, he acted as a priest, he received a double portion of the family inheritance (see Deuteronomy 21:17).

But the law of God provided that the eldest son of a family could forfeit his position as legal firstborn, if guilty of misconduct or inability to perform the necessary duties, and be supplanted by a younger son. In other words, it was not necessary for Jesus to be the first of God's creation to be eligible for the position of legal firstborn.

For example, consider 1 Chronicles 5:1:

“Reuben the firstborn of Israel . . . but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph, and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright!”

Reuben's lewd conduct earned the rebuke of his father, who deposed him from his legal status of firstborn, and gave the position to a much younger son: Joseph.

Other examples could be multiplied. Ephraim was blessed as firstborn by Jacob, even though he was younger than Manasseh his brother (Genesis 48:14-19), and God endorsed the appointment by describing Ephraim as “His firstborn” (Jeremiah 31:9). Jacob was given the birthright over his older brother Esau (Genesis 25:32-34). Simri was appointed to the position even though he was younger in years than his brethren (1 Chronicles 26:10).

These examples (and they could be multiplied) clearly show that it was often the practice for a younger son to be elevated to the position of legal firstborn in a family. In fact, this was so common that the Mosaic Law prohibited the elevation of a younger son to this position on the mere whim of his father, because of favoritism. It commanded:

“It shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated . . . ” (Deut. 21:17).

This prohibition shows that a legal firstborn could be a younger son, and therefore has a great bearing on the interpretation of Colossians 1:15.

The Bible refers to two notable “sons of God”: Adam and Christ (see Luke 3:38). The “first Adam” forfeited the right of inheritance, the position of firstborn of the human race, because of sin; but God raised up a younger Son (called in 1 Cor. 15:45 “the last Adam”) whose complete obedience to the will of his Father proved him worthy of the preeminence. He was thus elevated to the position of firstborn of the human race, which means that he receives “a double portion of the inheritance,” and that he acts as priest in the family of God. The Lord Jesus Christ is firstborn, not by fact of longevity (which confers no merit) but by virtue of his moral excellence.

His elevation was predicted in the Old Testament. God declared concerning him:

“I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).

The use of the future tense in this prophecy shows that the Lord Jesus is not firstborn by birth but by appointment; otherwise God should have said, “He IS My firstborn.”

The resurrection of Jesus was the seal of the Father's approval on the Son (Rom. 1: 1-4). This constituted him the Firstborn. Paul wrote: “He is . . . the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence” (Col 1:18), the “firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29). [The followers of the Lord are also described as a “kind of firstfruits” to God (James 1:18; Rev. 14:4), and as “the congregation of firstborns” (Heb. 12:23 – Greek. See Diaglott). Therefore, if the title “firstborn” teaches the pre-existence of Christ, it must do so also in relation to his followers. All the privileges of the firstborn that rest on the Lord, apply to a lesser extent to his followers. They will receive a double portion of inheritance in the Age to come, even immortality (1 Cor. 15:52-54), and they will act as a royal-priesthood (Rev. 5:9-10) in relation to the mortal population that will remain (see Zech. 14:16) during the period of Christ's millennial reign (Rev. 20:6).

These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed.

Hi Frank,

Did you write this one?
Please let me know what you write,
then I will likely read what it is that you post.

Sometimes I don't bother read L O N G posts either.
But since I'm interested in what you, Frank, believe I will,
that is ONLY if it is YOUR WORDS, not 'propaganda material'.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J,

No, I did not write this. Is it not clear to you that I do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth? If you do not like what it is that I post, I can only suggest that you from here on completley ingnore what it is that I post.

December 23, 2011 at 6:45 pm#269108

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 22 2011,09:12)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,13:39)

Pastry,

NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY “The Word of God is Jesus Christ.”

Do you consider the Book of Revelation to be a fraud then, because it says:

Revelation 19:13
King James Version (KJV)
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:13
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:13
New International Version (NIV)
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

t8,

No, I do not consider the book of Revelation a fraud! Closely note what I said:

“NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY “The Word of God is Jesus Christ.”

Note that that Revelation 9:13 does NOT SAY or PROCLAIM … and I QUOTE: “The Word of God is Jesus Christ.” You will not find such a foolish QUOTE in ANY translation of Scripture. This is nothing but a twisting (“wresting”) of what this verse ACTUALLY SAYS!

December 23, 2011 at 6:47 pm#269109

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 24 2011,04:29)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2011,07:26)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,12:00)

Is Not Christ The Firstborn?

At this point the reader might become a little impatient, and desire to press upon our attention Bible references that seem to give some support to the pre-existence theory.

And consider the statement itself: “firstBORN of every creature.” Does not that demand a mother? Who was the mother who gave birth to him before all others?

For example, consider 1 Chronicles 5:1:

Reuben's lewd conduct earned the rebuke of his father, who deposed him from his legal status of firstborn, and gave the position to a much younger son: Joseph.

“It shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated . . . ” (Deut. 21:17).

This prohibition shows that a legal firstborn could be a younger son, and therefore has a great bearing on the interpretation of Colossians 1:15.

His elevation was predicted in the Old Testament. God declared concerning him:

“I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).

The use of the future tense in this prophecy shows that the Lord Jesus is not firstborn by birth but by appointment; otherwise God should have said, “He IS My firstborn.”

These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed.

Hi Frank,

Did you write this one?
Please let me know what you write,
then I will likely read what it is that you post.

Sometimes I don't bother read L O N G posts either.
But since I'm interested in what you, Frank, believe I will,
that is ONLY if it is YOUR WORDS, not 'propaganda material'.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J,

Hi Frank,

You have made it abundantly clear that you do not believe in any pre-existence.
But there are many other points that get discussed on this and other threads.
Besides the only threads that you seem to post on are similar to this thread.

Sorry if my asking you questions seems to bother you, but I cannot
extrapolate what you believe through the words others.
Perhaps it is only me that has this difficulty?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 23, 2011 at 6:49 pm#269111

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 24 2011,04:45)

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 22 2011,09:12)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,13:39)

Pastry,

NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY “The Word of God is Jesus Christ.”

Do you consider the Book of Revelation to be a fraud then, because it says:

Revelation 19:13
King James Version (KJV)
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:13
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:13
New International Version (NIV)
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

t8,

No, I do not consider the book of Revelation a fraud! Closely note what I said:

“NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY “The Word of God is Jesus Christ.”

Hi Frank,

Excellent point, and I agree with you on this!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 23, 2011 at 7:00 pm#269113

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 22 2011,10:50)

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

2Titus 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
test everything; hold fast what is good.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Frank, are you listening?

t8,

I certainly do not listen to you, since YOUR OWN WORDS are no profit to me! I receive my instruction from Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word (Scripture) “rightly divided” for reproof and correction concerning rightious and profitable doctrine. Scripture clearly teaches me to live by everey word that proceeds out of the mouth of Father Yahweh, not the perverted words that proceed out of the mouth of t8!

December 23, 2011 at 7:28 pm#269117