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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,20:20) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,13:02) frank Quote These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed. 
why you do not go and get an excerpt from one who accept the preexistence of Christ you really don”t know what to believe right ??Pierre
Pierre,Why would I promote an article by someone who believes that the Messiah pre-existed his birth when I myself do not believe such bull?
Yes, I do know what it is that I believe and I certainly do not believe the Messiah pre-existed his birth as an actual being! I believe that Yahshua was born (came into existence) as a man and di not pre-exist his birth as an “angel” or a “god”. I believe that Yahshua had the same origin as all other men. We certainly did not pre-exist our birth!
frankwe are not equal to Christ ,or are you ??
if he was a men like us ,then he would born under the curse of sin,and could not save anyone never mind himself,
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2011,13:12) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,11:12) t8, I tested what you refer to as “iron” and found that it was nothing but pot metal
Thanks. Pot metal is quick and easy to cast, where as you seem to be made of stone and cannot change shape when required.
A normal conversation in anyone's language consists of two or more people in dialogue.
Do you always shout or have one way conversations with people and then try to insult people when they want to converse rather than be shouted or dictated at?
That is your manner online and if that is how you communicate like that in every day life, then I suggest going on a course or some kind of therapy to find out the route cause.
t8,Iron will break pot metal into pieces, not sharpen it! I am iron clad in what I believe and it breaks your pot metal belief into insignificant little pieces!
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,13:25) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,20:20) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,13:02) frank Quote These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed. why you do not go and get an excerpt from one who accept the preexistence of Christ you really don”t know what to believe right ??Pierre
Pierre,Why would I promote an article by someone who believes that the Messiah pre-existed his birth when I myself do not believe such bull?
Yes, I do know what it is that I believe and I certainly do not believe the Messiah pre-existed his birth as an actual being! I believe that Yahshua was born (came into existence) as a man and di not pre-exist his birth as an “angel” or a “god”. I believe that Yahshua had the same origin as all other men. We certainly did not pre-exist our birth!
frankwe are not equal to Christ ,or are you ??
if he was a men like us ,then he would born under the curse of sin,and could not save anyone never mind himself,
Pierre
Pierre,I guess that you are not aware that the Messiah said that he was a man then, right? You also must not be aware that the so-called “New Testament” teaches that Yahshua had the same origin as his brethren, right?
Frank, you seem to ignore those Scriptures y ou dont understand and then say the Scriptures contradict…. The Bible does not do so…. There are so many Scriptures that like t8, Mike and Pierre have shown you and you just ignore them…. The Word of God is Jesus Christ…
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
tell me Frank is there another being that fits this description? I don;t know of anyone….
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Frank is there another being that is the only begotten of the Father?
? I don't know of anyone….It is the only begotten Son of God Jesus Christ, who also has the name of The Word of God and King of Kings and Lord of Lords….and Yeshua….Irene
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,20:34) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,13:25) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,20:20) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,13:02) frank Quote These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed. why you do not go and get an excerpt from one who accept the preexistence of Christ you really don”t know what to believe right ??Pierre
Pierre,Why would I promote an article by someone who believes that the Messiah pre-existed his birth when I myself do not believe such bull?
Yes, I do know what it is that I believe and I certainly do not believe the Messiah pre-existed his birth as an actual being! I believe that Yahshua was born (came into existence) as a man and di not pre-exist his birth as an “angel” or a “god”. I believe that Yahshua had the same origin as all other men. We certainly did not pre-exist our birth!
frankwe are not equal to Christ ,or are you ??
if he was a men like us ,then he would born under the curse of sin,and could not save anyone never mind himself,
Pierre
Pierre,I guess that you are not aware that the Messiah said that he was a man then, right? You also must not be aware that the so-called “New Testament” teaches that Yahshua had the same origin as his brethren, right?
frankshow me the scriptures
Pierre
Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 21 2011,13:35) Frank, you seem to ignore those Scriptures y ou dont understand and then say the Scriptures contradict…. The Bible does not do so…. There are so many Scriptures that like t8, Mike and Pierre have shown you and you just ignore them…. The Word of God is Jesus Christ… Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
tell me Frank is there another being that fits this description? I don;t know of anyone….
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Frank is there another being that is the only begotten of the Father?
? I don't know of anyone….It is the only begotten Son of God Jesus Christ, who also has the name of The Word of God and King of Kings and Lord of Lords….and Yeshua….Irene
Pastry,NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY “The Word of God is Jesus Christ.”
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,13:35) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,20:34) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,13:25) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,20:20) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,13:02) frank Quote These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed. why you do not go and get an excerpt from one who accept the preexistence of Christ you really don”t know what to believe right ??Pierre
Pierre,Why would I promote an article by someone who believes that the Messiah pre-existed his birth when I myself do not believe such bull?
Yes, I do know what it is that I believe and I certainly do not believe the Messiah pre-existed his birth as an actual being! I believe that Yahshua was born (came into existence) as a man and di not pre-exist his birth as an “angel” or a “god”. I believe that Yahshua had the same origin as all other men. We certainly did not pre-exist our birth!
frankwe are not equal to Christ ,or are you ??
if he was a men like us ,then he would born under the curse of sin,and could not save anyone never mind himself,
Pierre
Pierre,I guess that you are not aware that the Messiah said that he was a man then, right? You also must not be aware that the so-called “New Testament” teaches that Yahshua had the same origin as his brethren, right?
frankshow me the scriptures
Pierre
Pierre,How about searching the Scriptures to find the Scripture that says that Yahshua said he was a man and that he had the same origin as his brethren.
I also take it that you completely ignored the article that I just posted previously entitled “YAHSHUA'S ORIGIN – One Among Many Brethren” by Voy Wilks, right?
Quote
NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY “The Word of God is Jesus Christ.”
Frank, who is the only begotten of the Father?Irene
Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 21 2011,13:35) Frank, you seem to ignore those Scriptures y ou dont understand and then say the Scriptures contradict…. The Bible does not do so…. There are so many Scriptures that like t8, Mike and Pierre have shown you and you just ignore them…. The Word of God is Jesus Christ… Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
tell me Frank is there another being that fits this description? I don;t know of anyone….
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Frank is there another being that is the only begotten of the Father?
? I don't know of anyone….It is the only begotten Son of God Jesus Christ, who also has the name of The Word of God and King of Kings and Lord of Lords….and Yeshua….Irene
Pastry,FYI, I have never said “the Scriptures contradict” as you erroneously said that I said. Is it now your agenda to put words in mouth that I have never said? If so, this makes you a liar along with the rest of your friends!
Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 21 2011,13:50) Quote
NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY “The Word of God is Jesus Christ.”
Frank, who is the only begotten of the Father?Irene
Pastry,Yahshua is the only begotten and in turn the “first begotten” from the dead!
And from Yahshua Messiah, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, … (Revelation 1:5).
Yahshua is the first begotten son from the dead of many sons!
Frank
Quote Pierre, How about searching the Scriptures to find the Scripture that says that Yahshua said he was a man and that he had the same origin as his brethren.
I also take it that you completely ignored the article that I just posted previously entitled “YAHSHUA'S ORIGIN – One Among Many Brethren” by Voy Wilks, right?
all the following scriptures are talking and saying that Christ was either send or came from God ,their are many more scriptures ,so I asck from you to respond to each of those scriptures and tell me that what it says is not what it means and that you have no scriptures to backup your theory but that it is logical to see it the way you see it because it make that much better sens,than what scriptures are saying ,
Matthew 22:41-46 NIV
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.John 1:1-3 NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.John 1:9-12 NIV
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—John 1:14 NIV
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.John 1:15 NWT
15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)John 3:13 NIV
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.John 3:16-19 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.John 5:19-20 NIV
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.John 6:32-33 NIV
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”John 6:35 NIV
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.John 6:38 NIV
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.John 6:41-42 NIV
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”John 6:46 NIV
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 6:48-51 NIV
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”John 6:62 NIV
62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!John 8:12 NIV
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”John 8:23 NIV
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.John 8:38 NIV
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”John 8:42 NET
Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me.”John 8:58 NWT
58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”John 9:5 NIV
While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”John 16:28 NIV
“I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”John 17:5 NRSV
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.when you done doing just that then I will know where you standing in Gods word .
thank you
Pierre
Pierre, apparently these are all translated wrong, well according to Frank and Gene.
The oldest trick in the book is to say that it is wrong because it is all mistranslated. Let me see. The Atheist could teach that the bible teaches there is no God and all the verses that allude to a God are mistranslated. Or all the verses that teach that Jesus is the messiah are mistranslated.
It is amazing what Gene and Frank think they can get away with using that lame excuse. Worse than that, they do not even provide evidence to show that all these verses are mistranslated.
That is why I can't take them seriously. I gave Gene a chance but his evidence was very poor IMO, and Frank, well for all I know he is a rogue spambot program that scrapes other site's content and posts it to forums. The best contribution Frank supplies is the humour he exudes whether he intends it as humour or not, I do not know.
Terricca…………Tell us why do you have to flop all around from one translation to another to try to prove your points, another thing i noticed NOT ONE ORIGINAL TESTAMENT WORD to BACK UP YOUR mix match translations. Using translation that TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES translate is hardly any proof. Paul told us to compare all said to the ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES which you people seem able to do, Why is that Pierre? Where is ONE SCRIPTURE that Say Jesus existed as a LIVING BEING before his berth on this earth. Or just tell us what his man was , or where did Jesus say He as a real being was Existed before Abraham forcing the text to say what in fact it is not saying is hardly Proof of a Preexisting Jesus as a Sentinel “BEING” . Not only that but You are mixing up GOD the FATHER SPEAKING “THROUGH” Jesus with the MAN JESUS. And what about where GOD said “THIS DAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU” , which in your false understanding would have been a lif because according to you Preexistences He was his So from the very beginning of creation, So the Word of GOD has a contradiction according to you dogmas. I could list all kinds of scriptures from the ORIGINAL TESTAMENT and HAVE before that Show JESUS was a Prophesied HUMAN BEING that was the offspring of King David, and was Born in life from an Israelite decedent. I can think of many scriptures that has been posted here for all of you but you Preexistence choose to just ignore them and you would think that Jesus calling himself a SON of MAN 80 or so times would mean something to you all.
You can't even produce ONE good reason why GOD would even “MORPH” Any Angel in the first Place , Scripture say that sin interred into the World by man and by man it was Expatiated, no where does it say it was by a MORPHED ANGEL. Scripture says Jesus was the “SECOND ADAM” nothing more or nothing less.
You preexistences, are in great danger because your work is to separated Jesus from our exact Identity, and turn him into a different being other that a man Just as we are. your work of SEPARATION is not of GOD, but pagan traditions You turn Jesus into an Idol which you worship and idolize, and as a result your are turning the IMAGE of JESUS into the MAN of SIN mentioned in 2 Ths 2, not even realizing what you are doing by those false teachings of Preexistences , Preexistences are no different the the trinitarians except they say Jesus was a GOD and YOU a Angel. But both of you are wrong Jesus was not a God nor a “MORPHED” ANGEL, both of your teachings SEPARATE Jesus from our exact IDENTITY> God was dealing with his HUMAN CREATION BY and THROUGH HIS HUMAN CREATION nothing more and nothing less.
The Trinitarians are in fact at least able to SEE GOD (IN) JESUS While you Non Trinitarian Preexistence cant even see that GOD was truly Present (IN) HIM> So i would say they are closer to the truth then you people are. But both you and them are in error, because Jesus was not a GOD nor a “MORPHED” Angel either.
peace and love…………………………………………………gene
T8……….Some may not be translated wrong but you are not understanding them properly , that is the problem here . You need to compare all New Testament Scriptures with the ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES and if they do not match then they should be reevaluated to meet those original Scriptures. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………..gene
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2011,09:48) Yes Frank, you can post from other sites and quote the source as you do, just don't post the same stuff over and over.
And yes you are right, you shouldn't care that myself and others do not read your posts because that is the reality.When you want to get real and have a conversation, then we are ready.
Until then, post away for what it is worth.
Hi T8,I rarely read 'copy and paste' propaganda material for the very reason you cite.
THEY ARE NOT HERE to discuss the details of what they propose as it relates to God's truth.
Therefore it is necessary to put “any belief” in one's own words to carry on a viable conversation.The excuse to say: [as SimplyForgiven(Dennison) has done]… why are you telling me this, those are not my words …are eliminated!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ Dec. 22 2011,02:52) Pierre, apparently these are all translated wrong, well according to Frank and Gene. The oldest trick in the book is to say that it is wrong because it is all mistranslated. Let me see. The Atheist could teach that the bible teaches there is no God and all the verses that allude to a God are mistranslated. Or all the verses that teach that Jesus is the messiah are mistranslated.
It is amazing what Gene and Frank think they can get away with using that lame excuse. Worse than that, they do not even provide evidence to show that all these verses are mistranslated.
That is why I can't take them seriously. I gave Gene a chance but his evidence was very poor IMO, and Frank, well for all I know he is a rogue spambot program that scrapes other site's content and posts it to forums. The best contribution Frank supplies is the humour he exudes whether he intends it as humour or not, I do not know.
t8they do have a problem with themselves their ;the first is they always mixing the YOU and ME ;finger pointing so they assume that it is them that have the truth ,so it is the YOU to point others they use the most ,for the ME this would mean humble themselves and look at scriptures from Gods view not from theirs ,
they also do not understand the word SPIRIT what is related to all of this ,I have try ,Mike and you Have try as well to make them see what scriptures are saying but of no avail ,but this is similar to the Jews have the Law for so long and not understanding any of it ,even do they could but ad no interest in it ,Jesus came and could not find any interest in the leaders and Sanhedrin for their interests where with their own pockets ,so Christ when to the people ,the tax collectors ,and after so many miracle they still did not believe ,so the gap ad grew so deep that it was looking grim,for them to be in the kingdom of God ,but yes ,prostitutes, thieves,tax collectors ,and gentiles ,where now welcome in Gods kingdom if they are willingly to produce the fruits there of, what the Jews did not wanted the do ,
like the Jews did with Christ ;Gene and others will always put scriptures in doubt,for any reasons that do not line up with his version or line of thought,
THIS IS NOT OUR PROBLEM BUT THEIRS ,OUR CONSCIENCE ARE CLEAR ,FOR WE DID TELL THEM ,SO THEIR BLOOD IS ON THEIR HEAD ,
they argue with scriptures and twist the sens in others to apply their own way of thought,so let them go their way we should go our way.God is our witness of all of us.
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2011,02:00) T8……….Some many not be translated wrong but you are not understanding them properly , that is the problem here . You need to compare all New Testament Scriptures with the ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES and if they do not match then they should be reevaluated to meet those original Scriptures. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………..gene
Gene, when a person takes an honest look at all scripture, we see that Jesus EXISTED with divine nature, emptied HIMSELF, came in the flesh, humbled himself, died for our sins, was resurrected, and is now in the glory that he had with the Father BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.There are more than a few scriptures that testify to this, so we prefer to stick with scripture, rather than your view Gene.
Surely deep down you can understand why we do not agree with your view. The shear amount of scriptures that talk about such things are too numerous to be all wrong or misunderstood.
- The Word was with God
- God created all things through Jesus Christ and the word of God.
- Jesus is called, “the Word of God”.
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 Peter 3:5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the waterI John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,12:00) Is Not Christ The Firstborn? At this point the reader might become a little impatient, and desire to press upon our attention Bible references that seem to give some support to the pre-existence theory.
We are not ignorant of those passages, but claim that none of them give support to the theory if they are properly interpreted. It is unfortunately true, however, as the Bible itself states, that some take passages of Scripture that are “hard to be understood” and proceed to “wrest them unto their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16).
Such a reference is Colossians 1:15. It describes Jesus Christ as “the firstborn of every creature,” and some have advanced this in support of the pre-existence theory. If Jesus is firstborn, he must have existed before all others, they claim.
But does not that set Scripture against Scripture? If he is literally “firstborn” in the sense implied by the theory, how can the Bible claim that he is the “son of Abraham and David” (Matthew 1:1)?
And consider the statement itself: “firstBORN of every creature.” Does not that demand a mother? Who was the mother who gave birth to him before all others?
These difficulties are solved, and the passage simply and beautifully explained, when the Bible doctrine of the “firstborn” is understood. In the Bible, “firstborn” is a legal term, describing pre-eminence of position or status, though not necessarily of birth. There were special privileges granted the legal firstborn in a family. He represented his father, he acted as a priest, he received a double portion of the family inheritance (see Deuteronomy 21:17).
But the law of God provided that the eldest son of a family could forfeit his position as legal firstborn, if guilty of misconduct or inability to perform the necessary duties, and be supplanted by a younger son. In other words, it was not necessary for Jesus to be the first of God's creation to be eligible for the position of legal firstborn.
For example, consider 1 Chronicles 5:1:
“Reuben the firstborn of Israel . . . but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph, and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright!”
Reuben's lewd conduct earned the rebuke of his father, who deposed him from his legal status of firstborn, and gave the position to a much younger son: Joseph.
Other examples could be multiplied. Ephraim was blessed as firstborn by Jacob, even though he was younger than Manasseh his brother (Genesis 48:14-19), and God endorsed the appointment by describing Ephraim as “His firstborn” (Jeremiah 31:9). Jacob was given the birthright over his older brother Esau (Genesis 25:32-34). Simri was appointed to the position even though he was younger in years than his brethren (1 Chronicles 26:10).
These examples (and they could be multiplied) clearly show that it was often the practice for a younger son to be elevated to the position of legal firstborn in a family. In fact, this was so common that the Mosaic Law prohibited the elevation of a younger son to this position on the mere whim of his father, because of favoritism. It commanded:
“It shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated . . . ” (Deut. 21:17).
This prohibition shows that a legal firstborn could be a younger son, and therefore has a great bearing on the interpretation of Colossians 1:15.
The Bible refers to two notable “sons of God”: Adam and Christ (see Luke 3:38). The “first Adam” forfeited the right of inheritance, the position of firstborn of the human race, because of sin; but God raised up a younger Son (called in 1 Cor. 15:45 “the last Adam”) whose complete obedience to the will of his Father proved him worthy of the preeminence. He was thus elevated to the position of firstborn of the human race, which means that he receives “a double portion of the inheritance,” and that he acts as priest in the family of God. The Lord Jesus Christ is firstborn, not by fact of longevity (which confers no merit) but by virtue of his moral excellence.
His elevation was predicted in the Old Testament. God declared concerning him:
“I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).
The use of the future tense in this prophecy shows that the Lord Jesus is not firstborn by birth but by appointment; otherwise God should have said, “He IS My firstborn.”
The resurrection of Jesus was the seal of the Father's approval on the Son (Rom. 1: 1-4). This constituted him the Firstborn. Paul wrote: “He is . . . the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence” (Col 1:18), the “firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29). [The followers of the Lord are also described as a “kind of firstfruits” to God (James 1:18; Rev. 14:4), and as “the congregation of firstborns” (Heb. 12:23 – Greek. See Diaglott). Therefore, if the title “firstborn” teaches the pre-existence of Christ, it must do so also in relation to his followers. All the privileges of the firstborn that rest on the Lord, apply to a lesser extent to his followers. They will receive a double portion of inheritance in the Age to come, even immortality (1 Cor. 15:52-54), and they will act as a royal-priesthood (Rev. 5:9-10) in relation to the mortal population that will remain (see Zech. 14:16) during the period of Christ's millennial reign (Rev. 20:6).
These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed.
Hi Frank,Did you write this one?
Please let me know what you write,
then I will likely read what it is that you post.Sometimes I don't bother read L O N G posts either.
But since I'm interested in what you, Frank, believe I will,
that is ONLY if it is YOUR WORDS, not 'propaganda material'.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2011,13:04) Frank4Yahweh ………You have posted the absolute TRUTH regarding Jesus as the firstBORN in Position from among human kind. I see it the exact same way , My hope and Prayer is the T8 would come to see and understand this as well as others Here also. peace and love to you and yours Frank…………………………………………………gene
Hi Gene,How can any of us see, if Frank doesn't post his own words?
Why don't you tell us specifically what it is that you agree with,
if YOU truly want to help? Or else WHO CARES what you agree with!…sorry to put the TRUTH so bluntly to you brother!
Your friend,
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,13:20) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,13:02) frank Quote These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed. why you do not go and get an excerpt from one who accept the preexistence of Christ you really don”t know what to believe right ??Pierre
Pierre,Why would I promote an article by someone who believes that the Messiah pre-existed his birth when I myself do not believe such bull?
Yes, I do know what it is that I believe and I certainly do not believe the Messiah pre-existed his birth as an actual being! I believe that Yahshua was born (came into existence) as a man and di not pre-exist his birth as an “angel” or a “god”. I believe that Yahshua had the same origin as all other men. We certainly did not pre-exist our birth!
Hi Frank,Why don't you tell us then, so that we will know too?
Because none of us here want to play your version of charades!
Anything you post will be lost to any outside reader after only a few pages.Just trying to help,
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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