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Hi Mike,
By the way Congrats, I see you've made 10,000 posts now.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd,
Let's take this one step at a time, so we can see exactly where your understanding breaks down – ie: where you start adding your own thoughts into the scriptures. Please address each point individually.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
It is CRYSTAL CLEAR from these verses that JESUS is the one John said surpassed him because he was before him.
1) Ed, do you have any doubts so far that John said these words about JESUS?
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Now we've already seen from verses 29 and 30, which I quoted above, that JESUS is the one about whom John says these words, right?
2) Ed, is there any doubt that whoever is referred to as “him” in verse 15 is the same one referred to as “JESUS” in verse 29?
If not, then we only have to find out who the “him” is in verse 15.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him.
Again, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the pronouns “him” and “his” refer back to the subject of verse 14. And who is the subject of verse 14? Why, the Word of course.
3) Ed, do you agree that the pronouns “his” from verse 14 and “him” from verse 15 refer back to the subject of verse 14? YES or NO?
4) Ed, WHO is the subject of verse 14?
CONCLUSION:
It is clear from verses 14 and 15 that it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”. And in verse 29, it is made clear that the one John said these words about is JESUS. Therefore, Jesus IS the “him” from verse 15, and therefore “the Word” from verse 14.5) Ed, can you deny this teaching?
Ed, I won't allow you to run away from this issue. Please address ALL FIVE points in the order I posted them.
Hi Mike,
John 1:29 (AKJV Bible): The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1) John is speaking of Jesus here.
2) Him in verse 15 refers to the same entity as in verse 29.
3) You need to repackage this question; OK?
4) “The Word” is the subject of verse 14, going back to verse one; and Jesus is the object of verse 14, going back to verse 7.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2011,05:57) CONCLUSION:
It is clear from verses 14 and 15 that it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”. And in verse 29, it is made clear that the one John said these words about is JESUS. Therefore, Jesus IS the “him” from verse 15, and therefore “the Word” from verse 14.5) Ed, can you deny this teaching?
5) Yes
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Mike,
I continue in this conversation willingly whether you allow it or not.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Mike,
The light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (John 1:5)
Matt.6:22-23 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body
shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness.
If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgED J………….that is a very good scripture most do not understand IMO. Let me Paraphrase it OK.
If the understanding in you is not clear then the Light is dim , and if the understanding in you is clear then you see it clearly. WE all have varying degrees of light “Understandings” (IN) us all, but most are in some degree of darkness, So Jesus asked if that light be darkness, not so good How great is that lack of understanding i.e. LIGHT, in you? it's Just some have more then others, But that is not to say we can”t get more understanding though, as we grow in Knowledge and understanding and Grace from GOD. IMO Remember Peter said “Until the day star rises in you hearts. we are all struggling to come to the crystal clear light of truth, we have not attained it completely yet but someday we will. We all look though a darkened glass but a time will come when it will all be clear to us all. “And in that day a Man will not say unto his neighbor (KNOW THE LORD) , for they shall all know of Me from the lest to the greatest, says the Lord our GOD”.IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 25 2011,13:27) 1) John is speaking of Jesus here. 2) Him in verse 15 refers to the same entity as in verse 29.
Frank,Do you agree with Ed J that both verse 30 and verse 15 refer to Jesus?
How about you Gene?
Mike….Simply deal with verse 15 now what does it say. ” He that cometh after me is (PREFERRED) Before me, for(because) he was (NOW NOTICE) before me,
The two word (BEFORE) are two Different words in the GREEK , the first is “emprosthen” meaning (in front of me). Now go on “for (because) he was (BEFORE) Greek word here is “protos”meaning in time foremost (in time place , ORDER OF IMPORTANCE> God in time Past placed Jesus in front of John in importance, Jesus calling was different then Johns and His calling was more important then Johns was.
Here John was simply saying Jesus was before him in Place of IMPORTANCE and it has nothing to do with His Berth at all. You simply would be forcing the text to say it was talking about his Berth, that simply is not true Mike. You can not use that text for a proof text for preexistence of Jesus as a Being at all. IMO
The same (EXACT) thing applies to John 1:30 none of these verses has anything to do with Jesus' Berth or PAST EXISTENCE at all Just that simple, unless of course your force the text to say it, by manipulating the English word ” BEFORE” as implying time of actual existence as a Being instead of place of importance. Those verses have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus' berth on the earth or his preexistence as a sentinel being whatsoever. IMO
Gene,
The questions are:
Do you agree with Ed that verse 30 refers to Jesus? YES or NO?
Do you agree with Ed that verse 15 refers to Jesus? YES or NO?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 23 2011,14:07) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 23 2011,12:39) t8, I am certainly and simply not going to take a FEW Greek words translated into our English language as “by” and “through” that can and has also been translated as “on account of” or “because of” OVER SOME 107 Scripture verses and passages that clearly states that Father Yahweh “ALONE” and “BY HIMSELF” created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. The so-called “Old Testament” is what the first followers of Yahshua took as truth, since the so-called “New Testament” had not yet been compiled in the Greek until MANY years later. The “ALL Scripture … inspired by Yahweh” that they were “THOROUGHLY FURNISHED” with spoken of in 1 Timothy 3:16-17 is what they used as profitable for doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness. They had no so-called “Greek New Testament” that they used for instruction in doctrine.
OK, so that means that you were created by God alone too.
Your parents were not involved.Is that it? Cause I can see by reason of your own doctrine that you could not be open to the possibility that God created you alone, yet through you parents.
See how your stubborn view even infringes on the most basic understandings that we all have. Who would argue against God making us through our parents? Yet your understanding of alone seems to rule this most basic of truths out.
Were you found under a cabbage Frank?
This is what we believe:
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was ….. he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universeGod created all things, and God has agency.
t8,No, I was not directly created by Father Yahweh in the beginning and no, my parents did not pre-exist their birth and in turn they were in no way involved in creating the Heavens and the Earth and all things in them in the beginning.
I am a result of Father Yahweh's creation in the beginning and was not directly created by Father Yahweh. I was indirectly created by Father Yahweh becuse of the first of mankind. Father Yahweh created Adam (mankind – male and female) in the beginning and instructed them to fill (or “replenish”) the Earth. They did this by means of sexual intercourse or reproducing after their kind and not by means of any creative power.
Were you found under dung t8?
This is what we believe:
All things were made by Him (FATHER YAHWEH), and without Him (FATHER YAHWEH) was not any thing made that was made (Yahchanan [John] 1:2).“…whom He appointed heir of all things, and on account of whom (YAHSHUA, FATHER YAHWEH'S SON) He (FATHER YAHWEH) made the universe (Hebrews 1:2).
Father Yahweh ALONE and BY HIMSELF created ALL THINGS in Heaven and in the Earth! There was NO ONE BESIDE HIM who done the creating!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2011,01:06) Gene, The questions are:
Do you agree with Ed that verse 30 refers to Jesus? YES or NO?
Do you agree with Ed that verse 15 refers to Jesus? YES or NO?
Mike………… What business is that of yours, Stop trying to use you mind to create dissension between brothers, I have written what i believe clearly, that should easily show my position to anyone who “TRULY” care about what i think about those scriptures. I know your Spirit (intellect) of Dissension Mike and you can't use it to try to fool ME nor or ED J. IMO. You can't divide and conqueror us LITTLE MAN. Though we do not agree with every thing we still are brothers.peace and love……………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 28 2011,08:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2011,01:06) Gene, The questions are:
Do you agree with Ed that verse 30 refers to Jesus? YES or NO?
Do you agree with Ed that verse 15 refers to Jesus? YES or NO?
Mike………… What business is that of yours, Stop trying to use you mind to create dissension between brothers, I have written what i believe clearly, that should easily show my position to anyone who “TRULY” care about what i think about those scriptures.
Okay Gene,I'll remove the word “Ed” out of my questions, if it makes you feel better.
John 1
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’Gene, is it clear to you, based on the word “Jesus” in verse 29, that John says these bolded words about Jesus?
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him and he cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Gene, is it equally clear to you, based on the words “The Word” in verse 14, that John says these bolded words about the Word?
If not, it should be. Gene, I am showing you something I've just recently noticed. And my thinking is: If I overlooked this for years, perhaps you have too. I'm showing you that John the Baptist said very precise words about the Lord for whom he was making the path clear. In one verse, that Lord is called “Jesus”, and in another verse, that Lord is called “The Word”.
Gene, add to this the fact that this “Word” who became flesh had a glory that no one but the “only begotten of the Father” could possibly have. And surely you know that there is only one in scripture called God's “only begotten”, right? You know that one is called both “Jesus” and “the Word of God”, right?
Gene, it is your choice whether you make personal attacks against me and ask “What business is that of yours”………or if you accept this clear scriptural teaching that God showed me.
This is undeniable proof that Jesus is the Logos from John 1 – either accept it or choose to keep on teaching what you've been shown to be false. The Word of God will judge us all in the end, because it is he who God appointed as our judge.
mike
Frank,
I notice you are avoiding me and my posts.
But feel free to tackle the preceding post addressed to Gene.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 27 2011,22:53) I am a result of Father Yahweh's creation in the beginning and was not directly created by Father Yahweh.
Frank,Don't you even realize you're saying about yourself EXACTLY was t8 was saying?
If you weren't DIRECTLY created by the Father, then you have no choice but to be created by Him THROUGH other agencies, such as Jesus, Adam, Eve, your parents, etc.
Sounds like Frank just confessed what we were trying to tell him.
God creates through agency. He creates through processes he set up in the beginning. The keyword is THROUGH and yet it was still God doing the creating.If God made all through Christ, then it is necessary that he was there at the beginning.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 29 2011,10:10) Sounds like Frank just confessed what we were trying to tell him.
God creates through agency. He creates through processes he set up in the beginning. The keyword is THROUGH and yet it was still God doing the creating.If God made all through Christ, then it is necessary that he was there at the beginning.
T8……………God is not creating through any “AGENCY”, we were created in the beginning of Adams Creation we simply are extensions of Adam, “As (IN) Adam all die and (IN) the Christos,”SPIRIT” All Shall be made alive> God never created any thing Through Jesus or anyone else but Himself. Look up the word Agency it means Representative, God does not “CREATE” “THROUGH” AGENCY'S he Creates by himself and alone. He gives is Glory to “NO MAN”.Scripture say “HE (GOD) Has Crowned (PAST TENSE) with GLORY and HONOR. This is already done for man Kind. It comes “THROUGH NO ONE EXCEPT GOD ALONE.
You would say to me God was reconciling the world “THROUGH” Jesus, but i would say to you He was reconciling the World (IN) Christ Jesus. Big Difference One was God doing it BY Jesus which you would believe while the other was GOD was (IN) Christ Jesus doing it which I believe. One has GOD Presence the other does not. IMO
Wrong.
You were created through your mother.
Without your mother and father, you would not be here.Would you like me to point you to a website that explains this?
Think of it like this Gene.
If I preach through the mouse piece that this forum offers me, then is the forum software taking any of the credit for the words I speak or is merely the vessel that I use to speak?
Likewise, God created us through our parents and all things were made through Jesus Christ.
The head of the woman is man, the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.
And the woman came from the man. And all creation came through Christ from God.These words I speak are in scripture. I didn't make them up.
And see how these words are spoken through me, yet I do not take the glory for these words, rather I admit to repeating that which is written.
Same with God. He created all things through Christ. That means that God created all things.
T8………..If God created “EVERY THING” through Jesus then please tell us what part Jesus played in that process, you have explained what parts played in you explanations , So now tell us What Part Jesus Played, and if you can't then how can you make the claim. Jesus as far as I know never told of any of his part in creation nor is there any apostles who described it either as far as i have read. So what purpose do you Trinitarians and Preexistence use this GOD CREATED ALL THINGS “THROUGH” idea for. Let me tell you why you and they do this , It is to SEPARATE JESUS FROM OUR EXACT IDENTITY and give him a “STATUS” which moves Jesus to a different level of existence as the rest of humanity It makes Jesus an object of Worship other than GOD.
But it even does more then that let me explain what i mean T8, this concept you preexistence and Trinitarians espouse creates another object of Worship in effect an IDOL OF WORSHIP And this also turns the ordinary Man Jesus into what Paul described as the Man of SIN. In effect you and those who believe like you turn Jesus something different then we are and giving him advantages he never had over us in his human condition This also down plays his Human existence and his human sacrifice and cheapen his work as a true human being and even more it cheapens God work in his HUMAN Creation
But if you insist Jesus preexisted as a sentinel being before his existence on earth, then you and your fellow assumer believers need to produce Proof of what part he played in the “THROUGH” CREATION thing. IMO
peace and love………………………………………………….gene
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