Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 24 2011,00:59)

T8………..Your assumption that GOD created Me and you and others “THROUGH” you parents is flawed, this is why. GOD created Adam then EVE first by himself and in this creation was built in a expansion from the beginning, the two “original” DNA”S creation were simply Joined in the same kind of flesh offspring. therefor none of us are created Physically different just of Original DNA. WE are simply Offspring's of the original DNA Creation that God alone created so our coming into existence was started with the creation of Adam. And like Adam we die, What do you think this means “AS (IN) Adam all die. How are we (IN) ADAM T8. Our DNA is only a Produce of the ORIGINAL DNA . T8 hear is something for you to think about.

See you cannot see the truth staring you in the face.

God created man(kind) in his image.

Are you a man. Are you made in the image of God?

If no, then what are you? An alien that wasn't created?

If yes, then you were created by God alone as it is written, and through your parents which is obvious.

How can you deny that you were created through your parents by God?

Is your answer to go into denial and try and convince me of your teaching in another way. Because that is what I seem to see a lot. I don't take a teaching seriously that is not able to include scripture or even the most basic concepts like God bringing you into existence through your parents.

November 24, 2011 at 3:33 pm#265195

GeneBalthrop

Participant

T8………Where did i say God did not bring me into existence (“ALONE”) He brought all Flesh into existence alone i have no problem with that, But my actual existence had nothing to do with my Parents (why) becasue it took place at the very time God created Adam and Eve. The genetic Code of all mankind was create then at the very first creation of man (ADAM) we simply are and extension of Adam remember (AS (IN) ADAM) all died. why does it say (AS IN) what does that mean to you T8?, and even through this existence came about through a process started by God in the first place, never the less my origin was from GOD (ALONE) that is my point.

Problem is you try to use this berth process to enforce you false stand of Preexistence which is not true. Jesus was no where around when God created this world and everything in it , and If as you assume He created “THROUGH” Jesus , then you are under obligation to show us JESUS' PART in all the “THROUGH” Process, i find NO scripture that supports that “ASSUMPTION”, no “PROOF” NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE> if it is there please point it out to us then, what did Jesus do? did he go get the clay God used, did, bring the spirit into us , did he in some lab make parts of our bodies, please tell us what part he played in the creation process that you say GOD had to DO it THROUGH HIM .

I can show where our parents played their parts, but you can show nothing. You ask for serious conversation, then produce you reason on what part Jesus played, but please don't give us a word “Through” that can be translated 80 different way and expect us all to say or there is the PROOF> even though it flies in the face of the “ORIGINAL” scriptures that say GOD created Us “ alone and by himslef i don't see no lab assistant in those word do you.

So the bottom line is you Trinitarians and Preexistences cry “THROUGH, THROUGH, THROUGH'” but produce NO, NO, NO, evidence of what Jesus did in this “THROUGH” Process. Using the fact we came “THROUGH OUR PARENTS as an example of all things coming THROUGH Jesus and produce NO evidence of this “THROUGH” Process, only goes to show how ignorant this whole Idea of “THROUGH” Jesus thing is.

Now if we say “THROUGH” CHRIST that could be taken several way, Because the word CHRISTOS can equally mean SPIRIT> And Scripture says The spirits (Elohim un-plural word),of GOD did move on the earth and it is what The LORD YAHWEH used to create His creation. That is the “US” in Genesis that is GOD which is composed of SEVEN SPIRITS, called the Seven SPIRITS of GOD. That is his creating force in all creation. Not Jesus the man or a preexistent being, he was not even in existence at that time. That is not to say Jesus was not in the Plan and will of GOD from the start though.

You and your “FELLOW PREEXISTENCES” ARE UNDER OBLIGATION TO PRODUCE (EVIDENCE) OF THE PART JESUS PLAYED IN YOU ASSUMED CREATION “THROUGH” PROCESS. You can't turn it around by coming up with us being born into the world through our parents T8, why because on the one hand you have “EVIDENCE” and the other you have “NOTHING” but speculation based on a word that can and is translated 80 different ways, and then say we have our PROOF by that, when many scriptures show differently. IMO

Come out of those false teachings Brother into the light of the truth, God never create anything through Jesus, even when he was on the earth he said he could do nothing of himself, every miracle done in his presence was God doing it showing him his power building his FAITH by giving him “EVIDENCE” He was with HIM, he said God would even show him more. It's all about That same “FAITH” in that SAME GOD our Heavenly FATHER ALONE is what Jesus was demonstrating to us all. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………….gene

November 24, 2011 at 3:42 pm#265196

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 23 2011,19:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2011,11:59)

(1)So IN VERSES 7 AND 8, who is it that John was said to have come as a witness to? Jesus? Or the Holy Spirit?

1) Jesus

1) Ed, you have correctly answered that it was JESUS who John was sent as a witness to.

John 1
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Ed, WHO is John STILL testifying about in this verse? Jesus? Or the Holy Spirit?

Before you answer, consider this:
John 1
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
You can see from this verse that the one who John said was before him in verse 15 is JESUS. And you can see from verse 14 that the one who John said was before him was the Word. (The word “him” from verse 15 applies to “the Word” from verse 14. And verses 29 and 30 confirm that “Word” and “him” both refer to “Jesus”. Ergo, Jesus IS the Word who became flesh.)

But just for added measure:
32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

Ed, the word “him” that I supersized is STILL referring to Jesus, and therefore STILL referring to the Word who John said was before him. So if the Spirit WAS the Word who became flesh, then the Spirit could not be what came down from heaven and LANDED ON the Word who became flesh. The Holy Spirit is NOT the Word who became flesh, but what DESCENDED UPON the Word, and what the Word baptizes WITH.

Ed, I pray that God let's you see what He is showing you through me.

peace,
mike

November 24, 2011 at 3:56 pm#265198

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 23 2011,20:28)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2011,10:23)

Bump for Frank and Gene and Kerwin and Marty and Paladin. (Ed has already answered correctly)

9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Who is the “light” of whom John writes?

Mike……That was God the Father who came (IN) By his LOGOS

So it was God the Father who said, “I am the light of the world”, Gene? How about when Jesus told the disciples that THEY were now the light of the world because he had to go back to heaven? Were THEY then “God the Father” also?

Gene, Ed is being honest with this line of questioning so far. You, on the other hand, want to believe what you want to believe no matter what. So you will look at scriptures that CLEARLY speak of Jesus being the light of the world, and apply those statements to the Father – just to AVOID the truth of the matter.

And that makes it a waste of my time to even try to show you anything.

November 24, 2011 at 3:58 pm#265199

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 23 2011,20:43)

All the very hairs on our heads are all numbered by our DNA……

Perhaps DNA is your God, Gene. But the hairs of MY head are all numbered by GOD, not DNA.

November 24, 2011 at 4:02 pm#265200

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 24 2011,08:33)

But my actual existence had nothing to do with my Parents……..

That's not going to make a very good Hallmark card for mother's day.

November 24, 2011 at 4:08 pm#265201

Blocked

Gene,

Can you tell me one statement that John the Baptist says about JESUS in John 1? Please quote the verse where you think John is speaking of JESUS, and not the Father.

November 24, 2011 at 5:06 pm#265209

Blocked

Hey all,

I think God has showed me a way to end the discussion about the pre-existence of Jesus once and for all.

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’

It is CRYSTAL CLEAR from these verses that JESUS is the one John said surpassed him because he was before him.

Are there any doubts so far that it was JESUS John said these words about?

15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

Now we've already seen from verses 29 and 30, which I quoted above, that JESUS is the one about whom John says these words, right?

Is there any doubt that whoever is referred to as “him” in verse 15 is the same one referred to as “JESUS” in verse 29?

Now, we only have to find out who the “him” is in verse 15.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John testifies concerning him.

Again, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the pronoun “him” from verse 15 refers back to the subject of verse 14. And who is the subject of verse 14? Why, the Word of course.

So it is clear that it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”. And in verse 29, it is made clear that the one John said these words about is JESUS. Therefore, Jesus IS the “him” from verse 15, and therefore “the Word” from verse 14.

Who among you can deny this teaching?

November 24, 2011 at 6:20 pm#265215

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 25 2011,01:42)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 23 2011,19:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2011,11:59)

(1)So IN VERSES 7 AND 8, who is it that John was said to have come as a witness to? Jesus? Or the Holy Spirit?

1) Jesus

1) Ed, you have correctly answered that it was JESUS who John was sent as a witness to.

John 1
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike,

John 1 14 is about “The word's” glory “IN” Jesus, so this verse is about both.
And in verse 15 is about what the reason for all this is. (see 2Cor.5:19)

2 Cor. 5:19: To wit, that God(HolySpirit) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us “The Word” of reconciliation.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 24, 2011 at 9:02 pm#265221

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 25 2011,01:33)

But my actual existence had nothing to do with my Parents (why) becasue it took place at the very time God created Adam and Eve.

And likewise, do you not think it possible that God could create all things through the Jesus Christ in similar way?

Think of it in similar terms to your own words which I have quoted.

No one is saying that God creates all things and through his son each thing at a time. But that Christ existed as the first, and obviously before creation if he was the first and thus God created (set in motion) all things through his Word who is Christ in the beginning.
If God created all things through and for him, then the main requirement here is that he existed before all things and it is this that you deny and thus why you must also deny that God made all things through him and why you are now denying that we are created beings.

Gene, in order to support a lie, one needs to sell other lies or ignore the truth. And look at what you are saying. You deny:

Jesus was the first
Jesus was the Word that was WITH God
God made all things through him and for him
What else will you need to deny to keep your doctrine looking feasible?
And because of sin, God sent his son into the very world that he created it through and for so he was made a little lower than the angels for a time, even though he existed in the form of God. It says he emptied himself and came in the flesh and humbled himself to the point of death and is now in the glory that he had with God before the word began.
And think about this Gene.
One reason why God can redeem all creation through Jesus Christ is because he created creation through him and this is explained in that Christ was the first to be with God and thus, how God can create all things through him.
Is it not also agreeable that the one whom all things came through is the one whom God could redeem all things through.
Who else could God have used but the one who was first (after God)?

November 24, 2011 at 9:03 pm#265222

Participant

Also, according to your understanding, you have no clue as to who was the first to be with God.
Because of this, you are also clueless as to how special that one must be.

We know who the first was and the reason why he is special and like no other.

November 24, 2011 at 9:07 pm#265223

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 23 2011,14:07)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 23 2011,12:39)

t8,

I am certainly and simply not going to take a FEW Greek words translated into our English language as “by” and “through” that can and has also been translated as “on account of” or “because of” OVER SOME 107 Scripture verses and passages that clearly states that Father Yahweh “ALONE” and “BY HIMSELF” created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. The so-called “Old Testament” is what the first followers of Yahshua took as truth, since the so-called “New Testament” had not yet been compiled in the Greek until MANY years later. The “ALL Scripture … inspired by Yahweh” that they were “THOROUGHLY FURNISHED” with spoken of in 1 Timothy 3:16-17 is what they used as profitable for doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness. They had no so-called “Greek New Testament” that they used for instruction in doctrine.

OK, so that means that you were created by God alone too.
Your parents were not involved.

Is that it? Cause I can see by reason of your own doctrine that you could not be open to the possibility that God created you alone, yet through you parents.

See how your stubborn view even infringes on the most basic understandings that we all have. Who would argue against God making us through our parents? Yet your understanding of alone seems to rule this most basic of truths out.

Were you found under a cabbage Frank?

This is what we believe:
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was ….. he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe

God created all things, and God has agency.

Frank, do you have an explanation?

If God created you alone and through nothing, then how do you explain the role of your own parents?

November 25, 2011 at 3:09 pm#265958

Blocked

Ed,

Let's take this one step at a time, so we can see exactly where your understanding breaks down – ie: where you start adding your own thoughts into the scriptures. Please address each point individually.

It is CRYSTAL CLEAR from these verses that JESUS is the one John said surpassed him because he was before him.

1) Ed, do you have any doubts so far that John said these words about JESUS?

15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

Now we've already seen from verses 29 and 30, which I quoted above, that JESUS is the one about whom John says these words, right?

2) Ed, is there any doubt that whoever is referred to as “him” in verse 15 is the same one referred to as “JESUS” in verse 29?

If not, then we only have to find out who the “him” is in verse 15.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John testifies concerning him.

Again, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the pronouns “him” and “his” refer back to the subject of verse 14. And who is the subject of verse 14? Why, the Word of course.

3) Ed, do you agree that the pronouns “his” from verse 14 and “him” from verse 15 refer back to the subject of verse 14? YES or NO?

4) Ed, WHO is the subject of verse 14?

CONCLUSION:
It is clear from verses 14 and 15 that it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”. And in verse 29, it is made clear that the one John said these words about is JESUS. Therefore, Jesus IS the “him” from verse 15, and therefore “the Word” from verse 14.

5) Ed, can you deny this teaching?

November 25, 2011 at 7:19 pm#265976

Participant

Hi Mike,

By you trying to make Jesus the word, you have to many holes
with the rest of Scripture; why do you have so much trouble seeing this?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1. Do you deny that HolySpirit is God? (Acts 5:3-4, Matt.12:32, Luke 12:10)
2. Do you deny that the HolySpirit was with God in the beginning? (Genesis 1:2)
3. Do you deny that the HolySpirit was sent to us, giving us the glory that Jesus had?

the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

1. Do you deny that the word fathered Jesus. (Hebrews 7:28)
2. Do you deny that the word fathers us? (1Pet.1:23, James 1:18)
3. Do you deny that Jesus said we were going to be one with them?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 25, 2011 at 7:21 pm#265977

Blocked

Ed,

There are five points I've outlined for you. Please address them IN ORDER, so that I know exactly where your understanding breaks down.

November 25, 2011 at 7:25 pm#265978

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2011,01:09)

Ed,

5) Ed, can you deny this teaching?

Hi Mike,

Yes, I have been studying the Scriptures for over 40 years.
How long have you been studying? (2 Timothy 2:15)
You need to rightly divide “The Word” of God.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 25, 2011 at 7:27 pm#265979