Preexistence

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2011,09:56)

Ed,

WHO was the “light”?

Hi Mike,

1. God is light. (1John 1:5)
2. The lamb is the light. (Rev.21:23)

It depends on what verse you mean,
which verse do you want me to address?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 23, 2011 at 12:16 am#264971

Blocked

Really Ed? THE VERSES I QUOTED FOR YOU IN THE FIRST POST.

November 23, 2011 at 12:20 am#264972

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2011,09:59)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 22 2011,14:51)

t8,

Certainly Father Yahweh's word has might, strength, power, and authority, but His word certainly is not a person nor is His word ever in reference to a separate being apart from Him.

Then who is the one called “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13?

Mike,

Did you not see in my previous post where I had said that Yahshua is called by the name/title “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation and why he is called by this name/title? I would suggest that you review my most on this matter.

November 23, 2011 at 12:30 am#264973

Blocked

Frank,

When you post YOUR WORDS, then I might take a look at them. If your claim was hidden in one of the writings of those dudes you often copy, then I probably wouldn't take notice of it.

Either way, if “Word of God” is a title that Jesus had, then how can you say “His word certainly is not a person nor is His word ever in reference to a separate being apart from Him”?

November 23, 2011 at 12:40 am#264975

Blocked

Frank, Ed, and Gene,

9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Who is the “light” of whom John writes? (Or is this a “foolish question”?)

November 23, 2011 at 1:28 am#264978

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 23 2011,07:20)

I have no problem with one “worshiping” Yahshua as Father Yahweh's son Whom he anointed and appointed to reign as King for 1,000 years, but what I do not agree with is one who “worships” Yahshua as our Heavenly Father and Creator and one who credits Yahshua for creating ANYTHING. There is sound reason why Scripture never records Yahshua as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING. Yahshua knew full well that his and our Father Yahweh is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM and that it was He ALONE and BY HIMSELF Who done the creating of ALL things. He seen this truth through and in agreement with the so-called “Old Testament”. He certainly knew and seen from Father Yahweh's prophetic word about his prophesied coming, but he most certainly never knew of any pre-existence that he had with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning or any mention in his and our Father Yahweh's prophetic word about his pre-existing his birth as an actual being.

Scripture says that all things were made THROUGH him and for him.
Such is taught in more than one place and it is us that accepts these scriptures while you blantantly oppose them.

Frank, if we take your version of what it means that God made all things alone, then I assume that you think that God created you alone too and thus not THROUGH your parents.
So if you want to be consistent with your understanding of what it is to create alone, then be fair and apply it comsistemntly, otherwise drop the idea altogether rather than pick and choose when it applies according to how you feel.

Of course I don't believe God creating you without your parents and I am sure you don't see it that way either.

But once again, we see the “Except Jesus” logic in play once again.

God created you through your parents, and through Christ.

You see the head of God is Christ and the head of Christ is man and the head of man is the woman.

Notice that all are originally sourced from the one who is their direct head.
So Christ came from God, the woman came from the man and that leaves the man coming from Christ.

It is this last part you cannot accept, yet if you take Adam or Eve, it was God who created them, but he did it THROUGH.

God did create all through Christ as it is written.
And it is you that denies this. Not us.

You happen to be created by God through Christ and through your parents.

Don't ignore this because much of it is indisputable and it might offend your parents to think otherwise.

November 23, 2011 at 2:10 am#264981

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2011,10:30)

Frank,

When you post YOUR WORDS, then I might take a look at them. If your claim was hidden in one of the writings of those dudes you often copy, then I probably wouldn't take notice of it.

Either way, if “Word of God” is a title that Jesus had, then how can you say “His word certainly is not a person nor is His word ever in reference to a separate being apart from Him”?

Mike,

Then I can only conclude that you did not take note of MY WORDS!

November 23, 2011 at 2:39 am#264982

Greek, Hebrew Or Aramaic?

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 23 2011,11:28)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 23 2011,07:20)

Scripture says that all things were made THROUGH him and for him.
Such is taught in more than one place and it is us that accepts these scriptures while you blantantly oppose them.

Of course I don't believe God creating you without your parents and I am sure you don't see it that way either.

But once again, we see the “Except Jesus” logic in play once again.

God created you through your parents, and through Christ.

You see the head of God is Christ and the head of Christ is man and the head of man is the woman.

Notice that all are originally sourced from the one who is their direct head.
So Christ came from God, the woman came from the man and that leaves the man coming from Christ.

It is this last part you cannot accept, yet if you take Adam or Eve, it was God who created them, but he did it THROUGH.

God did create all through Christ as it is written.
And it is you that denies this. Not us.

You happen to be created by God through Christ and through your parents.

Don't ignore this because much of it is indisputable and it might offend your parents to think otherwise.

t8,

I am certainly and simply not going to take a FEW Greek words translated into our English language as “by” and “through” that can and has also been translated as “on account of” or “because of” OVER SOME 107 Scripture verses and passages that clearly states that Father Yahweh “ALONE” and “BY HIMSELF” created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. The so-called “Old Testament” is what the first followers of Yahshua took as truth, since the so-called “New Testament” had not yet been compiled in the Greek until MANY years later. The “ALL Scripture … inspired by Yahweh” that they were “THOROUGHLY FURNISHED” with spoken of in 1 Timothy 3:16-17 is what they used as profitable for doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness. They had no so-called “Greek New Testament” that they used for instruction in doctrine.

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
An Expose On The Greek Words Translated as “By” And “Through”

November 23, 2011 at 3:39 am#264986

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 23 2011,09:43)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 17 2011,08:49)

t8,

I will put it this way! I most certainly will answer a serious or logical question, but foolish questions I simply refuse to answer!

OK.

How about we start with what Mike is asking.
I think it is a fair and reasonable question as he is only asking to clarify your understanding of a text that appears on the outset to contradict your view.

Are these not fair and reasonable questions below?

Quote

Frank,

Phil 2 says Jesus was existing in the form of God, and then emptied himself and took on the form of a servant.

I asked you what Jesus emptied himself OF. You said he emptied himself of pride.

So I asked you when Jesus ever had pride, or lorded it over others that he was the Son of God to the point that he had to empty himself OF this pride.

I fail to see how this is a “foolish question”. I acknowledge your answer of “pride”, and want to know when it was that he HAD this pride he emptied himself of.

I also asked you how one can be MADE INTO the likeness of a human being if he already was a human being. You said that you were both a human being AND were MADE INTO a human being. So I asked if you had ever been in any other form BEFORE being MADE INTO a human being.

Again, I don't see this question as “foolish”. I do however see your refusal to answer these questions as a tell-tale sign that you have made up your mind what you're going to believe; and you are going to keep on believing it – whether or not those beliefs actually align with the words of scripture.

That, of course, is YOUR choice. But all the name-calling is unnecessary. And it isn't honest for you to say you have answered my questions when the truth is that you don't want to answer them. At least be honest in your statements, okay?

peace,
mike

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

“Having this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Messiah Yahshua, who, though he was in the FORM of Elohim, did not count EQUALITY WITH YAHWEH a thing to be GRASPED, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on the tree. Therefore Yahweh has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Yahshua every knee should bow, in heaven and ion earth and under the earth and every tongue should confess that Yahshua Messiah is Savior, to the glory of Yahweh the Father” (Phil. 2:5-11 RSV, Emphasis added).

If Yahshua Messiah did indeed pre-exist, then Philippians 2:5-11 would appear to lend support to this view, on the other hand, if he did not pre-exist, then these words must be accepted at face value, not in an extended, mysterious sense.

Since most if not all other Scriptures indicate Yahshua did not pre-exist except in Yahweh's plan, * it is my view that the words in Philippians 2:5-11 should be accepted at face value, as words are normally used in a natural sense. However, people love a mystery so much that one is sometimes invented where there is no mystery. Let us compare these opposite views.

o The mysterious view:
Before becoming man, Yahshua was Deity, equal with Yahweh (or nearly so), totally like Yahweh in every respect, but gave up his Deity, by changing himself from Deity (that which can not die) to a human being (which can and must die), and occupied a human form. He emptied himself, becoming a servant to the human race, then humbled himself even more and died on the tree. He has now been highly exalted by the Father.

o The straight-forward view:
Yahshua [like all men], was made in the likeness and in the image [the form] of Yahweh. He did not count equality with Yahweh a thing to be GRASPED (ruthlessly seized). Being in human form (as are all men), he emptied himself and became a servant to the human race, then humbled himself even more and died on the tree. he has now been highly exalted by the Father.

Verse six holds the key to the understanding of Paul's message. The Roman Catholic view however, is expressed in this way:

“Though he had always existed as G-d, yet he did not grasp at this equality with G-d” (Phil. 2:6 Norlie Version).

It is not true, of course, that Yahshua was (or is) “equal with Yahweh.” Yahshua reported to his disciples, “… my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28; 4:34; 10:29; 13:16; 15:20).

Nor has Yahshua “always existed as G-d.” On the contrary, Scriptures inform us there is

o Only ONE true El (Eph. 4:4,5; 1 Tim. 2:5 Bethel Edition).
o Only ONE true Elohim (Deut. 4:35,39; 1 Tim 1:17 Bethel Ed.).
o Only ONE true Yahweh (Neh. 9:5; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 43:10,11; 44:6; 45:5,6,18). These are one and the same person, the Father.

This being the case, we can forget the Roman Catholic view that Yahshua has “always existed as G-d.” The KIng James Version, the RSV, and and a number of others do not convey the message that Yahshua has always existed as Deity, as does the Norlie Version.

Phil. 2:6. Being in the “FORM OF Elohim” is not necessarily identical to “being Elohim.” In this case, there is a vast difference. Adam was created in the image and likeness of Yahweh and we, being sons of Adam, are also formed in the likeness and image (form, shape) of Yahweh. This is indicated in Scripture:

“Then Elohim said, let us make man in our 88 IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS; … So Elohim created man in HIS own IMAGE, in the IMAGE of Elohim HE created him …” (Gen. 1:26,27 RSV).

Just as other men are made in the image (shape, form) of Yahweh, so Yahshua too, was made (formed) in Yahweh's image. The Tyndale Version of 1534 reads, “… Ch-ist J-sus: Which being in the shape of G-d, …” (Phil. 2:6).

This explains why Yahshua was “found in human FORM” (Phil. 2:8), and in the LIKENESS of men” (Phil. 2:7); as well as, in the FORM of El” (Phil. 2:6). Man is made in the image, the form, of Yahweh. Let us now review, point by point, the evidence given by the Apostle Paul:

Phil. 2:6. Like other men, Yahshua was in the form (image, shape) of Elohim. Perhaps there were in Paul's day those who claimed that Yahshua was not really a human being, but was Divine (that is, Deity). If so, verses 7-9 should have dispelled this notion.

Phil 2:6. Yahshua felt that he should not try to GRASP (seize illegally) equality with Elohim. Does this refer to a time BEFORE he lived as a man; a time when he is assumed to have pre-existed as Deity? No. This evidently speaks of a time after his resurrection from the dead.

Phil. 2:7. Yahshua was BORN in the LIKENESS of men (Gal. 4:4; Heb. 2:11,12,16; Luke 2:11; Mt. 1:18; 2:1).

Phil. 2:7. Yahshua took the FORM (shape, likeness) of a slave. Was this before, or after, his birth to Mary? It was only after. It was after he was BORN as a human being that he took the roll of a servant; as one who serves (Luke 22:7).

Phil. 2:7. Yahshua EMPTIED himself. Are we to assume this refers to a time when Yahshua gave up Deity to become a man? No. This refers to his denial of the pleasures and longings of a normal, physical life (wife, children,
family, home, and finally his death on the tree), so that he could better fulfill his mission as a prospective Redeemer. There is no allusion to the supposed giving up of a former life as a Deity in the heavens. There is only ONE true Deity, remember. This one true El is Yahweh the Father (Rom. 16:27; John 5:44, Bethel Edition). ***

Phil. 2:8. Being found in HUMAN FORM, as are all men, Yahshua humbled himself and became obedient, even to the death on the tree. This is absolute proof that Yahshua was not, originally, a Deity (an El); because the very meaning and essence of Deity is an indestructible life. It is impossible for a true El to die. Spiritual beings are not subject to death (Gen. 21:33; Deut. 32:40,41; Isa. 40:28, Bethel Edition). *** Deity and death are opposite and contradictory terms. Spiritual beings possess INDESTRUCTIBLE life (Heb. 7:16 RSV). therefore Yahshua, who was dead for 72 hours, did not at any time exist as a divine person (a Deity, an El), BEFORE his resurrection from the dead (Heb. 7:16).

Phil. 2:9. There fore (meaning, “for this reason;” that is; his people {Verse 8}), For this reason Yahweh has highly exalted Yahshua. When? BEFORE he lived as a man? No. According to the Apostle Peter and Paul, he was highly exalted AFTER his resurrection from the dead (Rom.1:3,4; Acts 2:33; 5:31).

Phil 2:9. Yahshua has been given a name above every name. Since many others have had the name “Yahshua,” this consist of greater honor that is implied by the name alone, For example: By his RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, Yahshua has been DECLARED to be all of the following and more:

(1) The SON of Yahweh (Rom. 1:4; Heb. 1:4,5).
(2) The promised MESSIAH (Acts 2:36).
(3) Yahweh's anointed (Acts 4:26 RSV).
(4) A PRINCE and a SAVIOR (Acts 5:31; 13:23).
(5) Our Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7).
(6) The Mediator between mankind and the heavenly Father (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 9:15; 12:24).

If he had not arose from the dead he would have filled none of these offices. Until that momentous event, these were only planed for him – from ancient times.

Phil 2:10,11. Every knee in heaven and on earth shall bow to Yahshua, and every tongue will confess that he is the Messiah, etc.

Objections

Objections may be voiced from the statement above, Yahshua did not try to grasp (seize illegally) equality with Yahweh” (Phil. 2:6). Other versions indicate this is the correct understanding, as can be noted in the following quotations:

o “… he did not regard equality with G-d something to be POSSESSED BY FORCE” The Jewish New Testament).

o “…yet he did not think to SNATCH AT equality with G-d, …” (New English Bible).

o “… but he did not think that BY FORCE he should try to become equal with G-d, …” (Good News Bible).

o “Who, being in the form of Elohim did NOT strive to claim for himself equality with Yahweh: …” (Holy Name Bible).

o “… who, although he was existing in G-d's form, gave no consideration to a SEIZURE, namely, that he should be equal with G-d” (New World Translation).

Conclusion

Having carefully examined Philippians 2:5-11, we see there is no mystery. The evidence does not indicate that Yahshua pre-existed as Deity (or as an angel) before he lived as a man. Instaed, the language is plain and to the point, stating that Yahshua (like other men), was formed in the likeness (the shape) of the Most High Father, Yahweh.

Yahshua did not try to prematurely to seize by force a coveted position in the heavens, but awaited the Father's pleasure. He first enduring the sufferings on the tree and, only later, enjoyed being highly exalted by the Father.

“Searching what, or what manner of TIME the Spirit of Messiah which was in them did SIGNIFY when it testified beforehand the SUFFERINGS OF MESSIAH and the GLORY that was to FOLLOW” (1 Peter 1:11 KJV).

We can give thanks to both Yahshua Messiah, and to Yahweh the heavenly Father for their great and lasting love to mankind.

Halleluyah!

* We have about 40 separate articles dealing with the pre-existence. ASK FOR THEM.

** Ask for the paper explaining the use of “us & our” in Genesis 1:26.

*** Ask for our leaflet, “Elohim: Singular Or Plural?”

**** Ask for the papers, “Can a Spiritual Being Die?,” and, “Yahshua: Yahweh of the O.T.?”

Addendum: Phil. 2:6
(To Be Continued!)

Following is an excerpt from “Did Our Savior Pre-exist?” By John V. Cordaro:

The Form of Elohim

This brings us to the most difficult passage of Scripture to understand. The key to
understanding it lies in your stand concerning the pre-existence doctrine as a whole. If you reject what has been written up to this point and continue to hold unto a belief in the pre-existence, you will most likely fail to comprehend this last passage as well. Those that are not locked into a preconceived idea will grasp its meaning much easier.The passage in question, Ph.2:5-9, reads as follows; “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua: Who, being in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with Yahweh: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore Yahweh also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:” (KJV)

To begin with, what does verse 5 mean? Does it mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua . If Yahshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yahshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yahshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as “the Word.” Yahshua did not officially become “the Anointed” or “the Messiah” until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).

As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” It does not say he “was Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did
not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.”

Yahshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.

In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father Yahweh. As a reward for his obedience, Yahweh has highly exalted him. A future exaltation will be the reward of all true believers if they, too, will humble themselves as Yahshua did.

This study has only touched upon certain aspects of the pre-existence doctrine. For additional information, please see the study entitled “Yahshua the Messiah is not
Almighty Yahweh.” That study will explain many other verses used to support the pre-existence. Among the verses discussed are; Ge.1:26; 19:24; Ps.110:5; Ze.12:10; Mi.5:2; Jn.1:1,10; 8:58; 12:37-41; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor.8:6; 10:4; Eph.3:9; Col.1:16; 1 Tim.3:16; and Heb.1:2. The study also explains such terms as elohim
and echad. SOURCE

November 23, 2011 at 4:07 am#264989

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 23 2011,12:39)

t8,

I am certainly and simply not going to take a FEW Greek words translated into our English language as “by” and “through” that can and has also been translated as “on account of” or “because of” OVER SOME 107 Scripture verses and passages that clearly states that Father Yahweh “ALONE” and “BY HIMSELF” created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. The so-called “Old Testament” is what the first followers of Yahshua took as truth, since the so-called “New Testament” had not yet been compiled in the Greek until MANY years later. The “ALL Scripture … inspired by Yahweh” that they were “THOROUGHLY FURNISHED” with spoken of in 1 Timothy 3:16-17 is what they used as profitable for doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness. They had no so-called “Greek New Testament” that they used for instruction in doctrine.

OK, so that means that you were created by God alone too.
Your parents were not involved.

Is that it? Cause I can see by reason of your own doctrine that you could not be open to the possibility that God created you alone, yet through you parents.

See how your stubborn view even infringes on the most basic understandings that we all have. Who would argue against God making us through our parents? Yet your understanding of alone seems to rule this most basic of truths out.

Were you found under a cabbage Frank?

This is what we believe:
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was ….. he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe

God created all things, and God has agency.

November 23, 2011 at 2:59 pm#265013

GeneBalthrop

Participant

T8………..Your assumption that GOD created Me and you and others “THROUGH” you parents is flawed, this is why. GOD created Adam then EVE first by himself and in this creation was built in a expansion from the beginning, the two “original” DNA”S creation were simply Joined in the same kind of flesh offspring. therefor none of us are created Physically different just of Original DNA. WE are simply Offspring's of the original DNA Creation that God alone created so our coming into existence was started with the creation of Adam. And like Adam we die, What do you think this means “AS (IN) Adam all die. How are we (IN) ADAM T8. Our DNA is only a Produce of the ORIGINAL DNA . T8 hear is something for you to think about.

Acts 17:24………..> God that made the world and (ALL) things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hansd; 25, Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing “HE GIVES TO ALL LIFE”, AND BREATH, AND ALL THINGS; 26, And HAS MADE OF (ONE BLOOD) ALL nations of men for to dwell on the face of the earth, and has determined the times , before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation 27, that they should seek the Lord , if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from everyone of us; 28,Notice now T8…..> For in him we live and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, for we are also his offspring, 29, for as much then as we are the offspring of God we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver,or stone, graven by art and man's device.

T8 none of us came into existence through Jesus or our Parents we simply are the produce of GOD' Creative action started from the very beginning and continuing unto this very day. You seem to want to take the Glory that belongs to GOD ALONE and give it to Jesus, but Jesus never did that now did he , did he ever say God made everything through Him no never , and he told us he gave us every think God told him, so why would he leave out that he was present and that God created every thing through HIM them. Frank is right and I have also told you that that the words “by, for, through and so on, can not be used a any kind of PROOF TEXT becasue they are word that can be mistranslated in all kind of way, while we use scripture that can not be misconstrued that are found in the Original Testament the one Paul told the Bereans to go and compare what was said to, are you doing that T8?.

If you believe what is said in the “ORIGINAL” TESTAMENT then there is no way you would believe that God created everything through anyone els. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours T8……………………………………………………………………….gene

November 23, 2011 at 5:18 pm#265026

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2011,10:16)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 23 2011,10:08)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2011,09:56)

Ed,

WHO was the “light”?

Hi Mike,

1. God is light. (1John 1:5)
2. The lamb is the light. (Rev.21:23)

It depends on what verse you mean,
which verse do you want me to address?

God bless
Ed J

THE VERSES I QUOTED FOR YOU IN THE FIRST POST.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2011,09:33)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 22 2011,04:31)

Hi Mike,

The problem of thinking that the prophets of old are called the
word of God also, have you forgotten what you said already?

I never said the prophets of old were also called “the Word of God”. I asked Frank if that's what HE was saying.

None of them were ever called “the Word of God” to my knowledge, and therefore there is no problem I'm trying to solve using your “the Word was the Holy Spirit” fallacy.

Ed, consider that Isaiah 42:1-9 is a Messianic prophecy. Here are verses 1 and 6:
1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations.

6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

Ed, who is the “light for the Gentiles”? The servant of whom God speaks here? Or the Holy Spirit that God PUTS ON that servant?

Now compare that with John 1:
9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Again I ask: WHO was this “light”?

John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world.”

John 9:5
“While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Luke 2
28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:

29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss your servant in peace.
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel.”

Ed, WHO was the “light”? Jesus? Or the Holy Spirit that God put upon Jesus?

(Gene and Frank: Whichever one is the “light” is the one who came into a world that had been made through him.)

Hi Mike,

Isaiah 42:6 …Jesus

John 1:9 …Jesus

John 8:12 …Jesus

John 9:5 …Jesus

Luke 2:32 …Jesus

Both the “HolySpirit” and Jesus are light.
God made us because of Jesus crucifixion.

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 23, 2011 at 11:58 pm#265050

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 23 2011,07:59)

GOD created Adam then EVE first by himself and in this creation was built in a expansion from the beginning, the two “original” DNA”S creation were simply Joined in the same kind of flesh offspring. therefor none of us are created Physically different just of Original DNA. WE are simply Offspring's of the original DNA Creation that God alone created so our coming into existence was started with the creation of Adam.

Gene,

YOU might be the creation of a process originated by God a long time ago.

I, on the other hand, am a creation of God, who knew me before HE formed me in the womb, and created me through His Son and my parents.

Gene, GOD formed me in the womb. A “DNA process” did not form me………GOD did.

peace,
mike

November 24, 2011 at 12:02 am#265051

Blocked

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 22 2011,19:10)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2011,10:30)

Frank,

When you post YOUR WORDS, then I might take a look at them. If your claim was hidden in one of the writings of those dudes you often copy, then I probably wouldn't take notice of it.

Either way, if “Word of God” is a title that Jesus had, then how can you say “His word certainly is not a person nor is His word ever in reference to a separate being apart from Him”?

Mike,

Then I can only conclude that you did not take note of MY WORDS!

Okay,

I have no reason to argue that point, Frank.

I'm still waiting for the answer to my point though:

Either way, if “Word of God” is a title that Jesus had, then how can you say “His word certainly is not a person nor is His word ever in reference to a separate being apart from Him”?

November 24, 2011 at 12:14 am#265053

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 23 2011,10:18)

John 1:9 [refers to] Jesus.

Good Ed.

John 1
6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Ed, WHO did John come to testify about? Jesus? Or the Holy Spirit?

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 23 2011,10:18)

Both the “HolySpirit” and Jesus are light.

Where is it said that the Holy Spirit is light?

November 24, 2011 at 12:23 am#265057

Blocked

Bump for Frank and Gene and Kerwin and Marty and Paladin. (Ed has already answered correctly)

9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Who is the “light” of whom John writes?

November 24, 2011 at 12:30 am#265058

Participant

Hi Mike,

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2011,10:14)

Ed, WHO did John come to testify about? Jesus? Or the Holy Spirit?

John testified about both, remember he had the HolySpirit with him in the womb.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2011,10:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 23 2011,10:18)

Both the “HolySpirit” and Jesus are light.

Where is it said that the Holy Spirit is light?

1John 1:5-6

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 24, 2011 at 1:59 am#265063

Blocked

John 1
6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Ed, you already acknowledged that the “light” in verse 9 is Jesus. So IN VERSES 7 AND 8, who is it that John was said to have come as a witness to? Jesus? Or the Holy Spirit?

And 1 John 1:5 does NOT say the Holy Spirit is light. It says GOD is light.

Ed, is there a scripture that uses the words “Holy Spirit IS Light”?

November 24, 2011 at 2:23 am#265064