Preexistence

[terraricca]

Frank

Quote

As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.”

but you do not mention the fact 'that no men was his father ” so what was Christ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

No, I am not willing to learn along with you, since I already know what it is that you believe and I do not believe as you do.

I see.  You are not willing to actually discuss Phil 2:6-8 with a live human being, but are willing to post someone else's explanation of it?  Okay, then let me discuss Phil 2 with this writer that can't even answer back to me, okay?

First, I must say that I agree with 90% of what this unnamed author wrote.  He/she makes very good and logical points that refute the Trinitarian claim that Phil 2 equalizes Jesus with his own God.  But here are a few discrepancies:

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

7a) But made himself of no reputation. [NIV But made himself nothing RSV But emptied himself] We have been told for hundreds of years that this is saying the Son divested or set aside his power and glory and became a man. Where did this idea come from, where are the scriptures to back-up this illogical theory?

Answer:  I suppose the idea came from many scriptures, one of which is John 17:5, in which Jesus asks for the return of the glory he had alongside his God before the world was made – the glory he had left behind to take on the form of a servant.

This scripture is solidly supported by one that your own author quotes – John 1:14.  In that scripture, we find confirmation that the Word who was with God in the beginning BECAME flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of the only begotten Son of God that he was.

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

The truth is, if he did build himself a reputation (or make himself something) he would not be seeking His Father’s will.

Questions:  What exactly did Jesus “empty himself” OF to become a humble servant, if humble servant is all he EVER was?  

If “form of God” truly means Jesus was a man like everyone else, what is it that he “emptied himself” of in order to be made in the likeness of a man?  

And if Jesus would not have been seeking his Father's will by building himself a reputation, then what “reputation” did he “empty himself” of?

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

The NIV & RSV bring out the true reading that is almost like saying, “took upon him the form of a servant, as he was in the likeness of men.”

“Almost like saying”?    Is this horse shoes or hand grenades?  Actually, it is closer to saying, “and took upon him the form of a servant BY BEING made in the likeness of a human being”.  

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

The Bible tells us he was born first and then at the age of 30 became a servant.

Does this mean that Jesus did not serve his God until he was 30 years old? While I was composing this post, I saw that you posted a different author, who said:  “As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do.”  Which one of these two things do you believe, Frank?  It can't be both, since they contradict each other.

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

Paul isn’t saying Yahshua stepped down from a pre-existent state of power and glory, he’s simply saying Yahshua was “meek and lowly in heart” (Mt 11:29)……….

Then how do we explain 17:5, where Jesus is asking for the RETURN of the glory he stepped down from?  And tell me exactly when Jesus WASN'T “meek and lowly in heart” to the point that he had to empty himself and BECOME “meek and lowly in heart”.

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

……….and “made himself of no reputation.”

How could he MAKE HIMSELF of no reputation unless he WAS of some reputation previously?  Also Frank, have you noticed that the reasoning of your author flies in the face of your own “he was a mighty one” argument? Which was he: a mighty one? Or a meek and lowly hearted servant?

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

He did this despite the fact he was capable of becoming a great, wealthy and powerful individual, far surpassing anyone alive at that time, or our time for that matter. But instead of heaping glory upon himself and bringing all others in subjection, he “took upon him(self) the form of a servant.”

This is illogical.  If Jesus COULD HAVE BEEN great, but never once capitalized on it, then there would have been nothing for him to empty himself of to become a servant.

The ONLY way he could have emptied himself to BECOME a servant is if he was previously in a much higher position.

The ONLY way he could have emptied himself to BE MADE into the likeness of a human being is if he previously was NOT a human being.  Otherwise, the wording simply doesn't make sense.

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

This is the message Paul is conveying: 6 Yahshua was in Yahweh’s form (as are we), his direct and only descendant, yet he did not attempt to seize power from or elevate himself to the status of his Father.

That leaves absolutely nothing for Jesus to empty himself of.

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

7 Instead he did the opposite, and lowered himself to a nobody, a servant………

Opposite of WHAT?    The scripture says he ALREADY WAS something before he EMPTIED HIMSELF.  How could emptying himself convey an “OPPOSITE” to something if Jesus never WAS anything but humble?

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)

8 After being found by his disciples as a man, a human being, he submitted obediently to the death on the cross.

As opposed to being found as WHAT?    What's the point of saying “being FOUND in the likeness of a man” if he never was anything else but a man?  

Frank, here is your understanding, with my notes attached:

1.  Jesus was existing in the form of God, which means he was a human being just like the rest of us who are made in God's image.  

2.  But even though he was a human being just like all of us, he never considered equality with God something to be grasped.  (What?  How many humans do you think Paul knew that DID consider equality with God something to be grasped?  Paul's statement makes no sense unless Jesus was somehow in a position where equality with God could seem attainable.  A position not unlike Satan's position – who apparently DID think he could attain equality with the God who created him.)

3.  Even though Jesus was never anything other than a human being just like the rest of us, he somehow MADE himself of no reputation.  (How can he MAKE himself of no reputation if he had no reputation to start with?)

4.  He took upon him the form of a servant.  (Again, how could he TAKE UPON HIM the form of a servant if he had never BEEN anything other than a servant?)

5.  And was made in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.  (This is your biggest hurdle of all, Frank.  No human being in the history of creation would ever be said to have been MADE INTO the likeness of a human being.  The ONLY way one could be MADE INTO the likeness of a human being is if that one was NOT in the likeness of a human being prior to being MADE INTO the likeness of a human being.)

Frank, instead of quoting long writings from others, why don't we just start with Phil 2:6 and discuss our understandings of this passage? What are you afraid of? If your understanding is the correct one, then show me so that I too can speak truth about this matter.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:42)

Following is an excerpt from: http://www.torahofmessiah.com/enyprexist.html that follows closely to what it is that I believe:

Frank,

While you are welcome to post these things here, I personally don't have the time to respond to every point made by your unlimited list of internet authors.

So you can keep posting these people who aren't here to answer our questions if it somehow makes you feel justified with your understanding of Jesus' pre-existent state.

Personally, I feel that a man who just posts pages of OTHER PEOPLE'S work is not a man who is sure enough of his own understanding to stand and defend it against the actual scriptures.

I keep offering you the chance to do just that, and you keep refusing.  That tells me that I'm either right and you know it, or that you just don't want to FIND OUT that I'm right.  

But, anytime you're willing to stop copying others who aren't here to answer our points about what they've written, we'll be here to discuss what the scriptures actually say about the pre-existence of Jesus with you.

peace,
mike

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 06 2011,10:45)

Frank Quote As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.” but you do not mention the fact 'that no men was his father ” so what was Christ

Yahshua is the Messiah to SON of the living Yahweh. We know for a fact that Yahweh was Yahshua's FATHER, since he is frequently recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as referring to Him as his and our FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN when he himself was HERE ON EARTH. Yahweh is also recorded in this same section of the Book as referring to Yahshua as His SON.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,11:39)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:42) Following is an excerpt from: http://www.torahofmessiah.com/enyprexist.html that follows closely to what it is that I believe: Frank, While you are welcome to post these things here, I personally don't have the time to respond to every point made by your unlimited list of internet authors. So you can keep posting these people who aren't here to answer our questions if it somehow makes you feel justified with your understanding of Jesus' pre-existent state. Personally, I feel that a man who just posts pages of OTHER PEOPLE'S work is not a man who is sure enough of his own understanding to stand and defend it against the actual scriptures. I keep offering you the chance to do just that, and you keep refusing.  That tells me that I'm either right and you know it, or that you just don't want to FIND OUT that I'm right.   But, anytime you're willing to stop copying others who aren't here to answer our points about what they've written, we'll be here to discuss what the scriptures actually say about the pre-existence of Jesus with you. peace, mike

Mike,

Scripture has nothing whatsoever to say about Yahshua's pre-existence, since he did not pre-exist his birth.

I know for a fact that you are not right and that Father Yahweh's prophetic word is right. I have no desire whatsoever to discuss what you believe scriptures actually say about the pre-existence of Jesus.

[mikeboll64]

Really Frank? Why not just answer two simple little questions then:

What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2?

How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?

[terraricca]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 06 2011,18:52)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 06 2011,10:45) Frank Quote As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.” but you do not mention the fact 'that no men was his father ” so what was Christ Yahshua is the Messiah to SON of the living Yahweh. We know for a fact that Yahweh was Yahshua's FATHER, since he is frequently recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as referring to Him as his and our FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN when he himself was HERE ON EARTH. Yahweh is also recorded in this same section of the Book as referring to Yahshua as His SON.

frank

so if Christ is the son of God because he is born from God ,he most have been Gods son before ,he came as a human right ??

God only confirm the son ship at his baptism for Gods work for him to do, came to be started and so all as to be accomplished by Christ ,the fact that God mention that Christ was his son was not to convinced them of what they are to each other(father and son), but men.

if Christ did not preexisted then God made a new creation right ?
and then he would not rest ,like he said in Gen ;on the 7 day.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,12:39)

Really Frank? Why not just answer two simple little questions then: What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2? How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?

Yes, really Mike!,

The contents of Philippians chapter 2 is speaking of one humbling themselves and becoming one with each other. In other words, the contents is instructing us not to be high-minded above our fellow brethren and is not to be used to prove anyone pre-existed their birth. Yahshua also humbled (or “emptied”) himself and we are to take on this same attitude or being of like mind. Although Yahshua knew full well that he was unique in comparison to us in that he was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth and in turn being a mighty one like unto Moshe, he humbled himself as being one in unity with his fellow brethren in belief and faith. He was not boastful or proud in thinking himself better than his fellow brethren, but instead became a humble fellow servant (“emptied himself” or “made himself of no reputation” as being a mighty one in the Earth) in unity and in agreement with them. Yahshua is also unique in that he is the first fruit of the “first fruits” of many sons. He was not boastful or proud concerning this. Note he even states that the first shall be last and the last shall be first and that his fellow servants were to do greater things than what he had done.

So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen (Mattithyah [Matthew] 10:16).

Yahshua was also called and chosen to be an Apostle (one sent forth).

I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahchanan [John] 14:12).

As to you question “How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?”:

I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actaul being before my birth.

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 13 2011,15:04)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,12:39) Really Frank?  Why not just answer two simple little questions then: What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2? Although Yahshua knew full well that he was unique in comparison to us in that he was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth and in turn being a mighty one like unto Moshe, he humbled himself as being one in unity with his fellow brethren in belief and faith.

So your answer to what Jesus emptied himself of is:  All Authority in Heaven and Earth?  

Is that your answer, Frank?

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 13 2011,15:04)

As to you question “How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?”: I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actaul being before my birth.

Are you saying that you were made into the likeness of a human being AFTER you ALREADY WERE a human being?  

At what point in your human life did this happen, Frank?  Please explain.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,08:04)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,12:39) Really Frank?  Why not just answer two simple little questions then: What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2? How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being? Yes, really Mike!, The contents of Philippians chapter 2 is speaking of one humbling themselves and becoming one with each other. In other words, the contents is instructing us not to be high-minded above our fellow brethren and is not to be used to prove anyone pre-existed their birth. Yahshua also humbled (or “emptied”) himself and we are to take on this same attitude or being of like mind. Although Yahshua knew full well that he was unique in comparison to us in that he was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth and in turn being a mighty one like unto Moshe, he humbled himself as being one in unity with his fellow brethren in belief and faith. He was not boastful or proud in thinking himself better than his fellow brethren, but instead became a humble fellow servant (“emptied himself” or “made himself of no reputation” as being a mighty one in the Earth) in unity and in agreement with them. Yahshua is also unique in that he is the first fruit of the “first fruits” of many sons. He was not boastful or proud concerning this. Note he even states that the first shall be last and the last shall be first and that his fellow servants were to do greater things than what he had done. So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen (Mattithyah [Matthew] 10:16). Yahshua was also called and chosen to be an Apostle (one sent forth). I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahchanan [John] 14:12). As to you question “How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?”: I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actaul being before my birth. Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”?

Frank4Yahweh………………..Welcome brother, you have rightly spoken the truth here, it is refreshing to see others understand this truth also. Indeed Jesus did not Preexist his berth on this earth, He only existed in the mind and will of GOD and was the Prophesied Messiah to come by Moses and others prophets of God. You have presented it right brother.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2011,09:16)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 13 2011,15:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,12:39) Really Frank?  Why not just answer two simple little questions then: What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2? Although Yahshua knew full well that he was unique in comparison to us in that he was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth and in turn being a mighty one like unto Moshe, he humbled himself as being one in unity with his fellow brethren in belief and faith. So your answer to what Jesus emptied himself of is:  All Authority in Heaven and Earth?   Is that your answer, Frank? Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 13 2011,15:04) As to you question “How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?”: I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actaul being before my birth. Are you saying that you were made into the likeness of a human being AFTER you ALREADY WERE a human being?   At what point in your human life did this happen, Frank?  Please explain.

Mike,

No, that was really not my answer! Did you see anywhere on this forum where I had said “What Jesus emptied himself of is: All Authority in Heaven and Earth?” No, you did not! Let me further expound! What Yahshua emptied himself of (or “made himself of no reputation”) is pride. He made himself of no reputation of being boastful or proud because of his being given ALL power in Heaven and in the Earth, being the first fruit of the “first fruits” of many sons (daughters, children, people), and etc. This is how I would interpret your particular pet peeve translation that you have presented here in accordance with Scripture as a whole, although I believe that this is a Trinitarian interpretive translation that supports their “pre-existent Jesus” Trinitarian concept. If they did not have their “pre-existent Jesus God” their “Triune God” would not have a leg to stand on.

Did you see me say anywhere on this forum that I was “made into the likeness of a human being AFTER ALREADY [WAS] a human being.”? No you did not! Following is what I had actually said:

“I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actual being before my birth.”

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

[mikeboll64]

Hi Frank,

It seems we are getting somewhere now.

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,15:40)

What Yahshua emptied himself of (or “made himself of no reputation”) is pride.

When did Jesus have this pride to empty himself of?  When was he of “high reputation” to the point he had to “make himself of no reputation”?

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,15:40)

“I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actual being before my birth.”

But were you at one point existing in the form of God, and then had to empty yourself of something to be made into the likeness of a human being?  Or have you always been a human being?

I guess I'm wondering if there was ever a time you had to “make yourself of no account” in order to be made into the likeness of a human being?

peace,
mike

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 15 2011,01:25)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,08:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,12:39) Really Frank?  Why not just answer two simple little questions then: What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2? How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being? Yes, really Mike!, The contents of Philippians chapter 2 is speaking of one humbling themselves and becoming one with each other. In other words, the contents is instructing us not to be high-minded above our fellow brethren and is not to be used to prove anyone pre-existed their birth. Yahshua also humbled (or “emptied”) himself and we are to take on this same attitude or being of like mind. Although Yahshua knew full well that he was unique in comparison to us in that he was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth and in turn being a mighty one like unto Moshe, he humbled himself as being one in unity with his fellow brethren in belief and faith. He was not boastful or proud in thinking himself better than his fellow brethren, but instead became a humble fellow servant (“emptied himself” or “made himself of no reputation” as being a mighty one in the Earth) in unity and in agreement with them. Yahshua is also unique in that he is the first fruit of the “first fruits” of many sons. He was not boastful or proud concerning this. Note he even states that the first shall be last and the last shall be first and that his fellow servants were to do greater things than what he had done. So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen (Mattithyah [Matthew] 10:16). Yahshua was also called and chosen to be an Apostle (one sent forth). I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahchanan [John] 14:12). As to you question “How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?”: I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actaul being before my birth. Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? Frank4Yahweh………………..Welcome brother, you have rightly spoken the truth here, it is refreshing to see others understand this truth also. Indeed Jesus did not Preexist his berth on this earth, He only existed in the mind and will of GOD and was the Prophesied Messiah to come by Moses and others prophets of God. You have presented it right brother. peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene

Gene,

Thank you for your kind welcome. I fully agree with what you have said as follows:

“Indeed Jesus did not Preexist his berth on this earth, He only existed in the mind and will of GOD and was the Prophesied Messiah to come by Moses and others prophets of God. …”

You are the kind that I had explained to Mike previously that I wanted to meet on this forum. I had explained to Mike that it was not my purpose to come here to dispute what it is that I believe with him, but he is insistent that I do so even though he knows full well that I do not enjoy such disputes. Yes, it is refreshing to see others understand this truth that Yahshua was born (came into existence) as an actual flesh and blood human being just like us that can sympathize with our weaknesses. I most certainly do not believe that a “God” that proclaims that it emptied itself of being a “God” and transformed itself into a flesh and blood human being can sympathize with me!

For this reason he HAD TO BE MADE LIKE HIS BOTHERS IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to Yahweh, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people (Hebrews 2:17).

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are–yet was without sin (Hebrews 4:15).

He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness (Hebrews 5:2).

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2011,09:08)

Hi Frank, It seems we are getting somewhere now. Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,15:40) What Yahshua emptied himself of (or “made himself of no reputation”) is pride. When did Jesus have this pride to empty himself of?  When was he of “high reputation” to the point he had to “make himself of no reputation”? Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,15:40) “I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actual being before my birth.” But were you at one point existing in the form of God, and then had to empty yourself of something to be made into the likeness of a human being?  Or have you always been a human being? I guess I'm wondering if there was ever a time you had to “make yourself of no account” in order to be made into the likeness of a human being? peace, mike

Mike,

I did not come here to get anywhere with you! In fact I did not initially address you when I came to this forum. It was you who addressed me! You are the one that is getting nowhere with your attempting to dispute what it is that I believe. I am most certainly never going to believe as you do and you are most certianly never going to believe as I do, so what would be the purpose of me discussing anything with you? This is exactly why I did not want to discuss anything with you!

[mikeboll64]

Hi Frank,

Are you unable to answer the questions?

[Proclaimer]

I disagree Frank4YAHWEH.

From what I can see, you are not answering objections raised here.
This is symptomatic of someone who only hears teachers that itch his ears.
And ignores everything that doesn't agree.
This reminds me of the debates I have had with some who teach the Trinity.

Of course, if you were able to provide an answer in season as to these serious objections that have been raised regarding your doctrine, then I could understand why you teach as you do, because at least you would have some substance to your words and understanding.
But so far, there are serious objections that point to your doctrine being wrong, and you have no reasonable answer for them.
This means in the best case scenario, your doctrine could be wrong.
Worst case scenario, it is wrong and you also refuse to hear the truth.

IMO, it is worth it to at least attempt to answer these objections so you/we can see how strong your doctrine is.
Surely such is not a fruitless exercise, because allowing it to be tested with scripture can only be a learning exercise for all who read.

And if we cast aside pride and are humble and teachable, then even better.

[GeneBalthrop]

Frank4 Yahweh…………………….Don't get discourage by Mike thinking we don't answer his questions, many many here have answered them over and over and He still says the same thing as if those question weren't answered at all, What he is really saying they are not answered his way, the way he wasn't them to be answered.  

Frank there are others here who do not believe in Jesus' Preexistence also , Kerwin, Paladin, Marty, Martian , and also on,  has others through out the years. You have three distinct types of believers here, those who believe Jesus preexisted  as GOD and came down to earth in the form of a Man, Those who believe Jesus was not a GOD but a preexisting Angel or demigod or something, They cant tell you what fore sure. These groups compose about 90 % of all so-called Christians today, Then you have a small percent like you and I and some others who do not believe Jesus preexisted his existence on the earth except in the Plan and will of God. There are others here who i believe are coming to the Light of this truth also like Shimmer. And i believe the owner of this site T8 might be reconsidering some of his past beliefs also. Just my opinions.

I believe it is a Blessing from God that He has allowed us to see these truths.

You will get to know the others by following there Posts and jumping in and posting to them. Any way welcome to the site, and remember Jesus said we shall all be salted with Fire and you will get some of that here brother.

Peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………..gene

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2011,10:40)

Hi Frank, Are you unable to answer the questions?

Mike,

I have answered you questions! BTW! Your avatar fits you well in that you don't even bother to hide in sheep clothing.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 15 2011,10:59)

I disagree Frank4YAHWEH. From what I can see, you are not answering objections raised here. This is symptomatic of someone who only hears teachers that itch his ears. And ignores everything that doesn't agree. This reminds me of the debates I have had with some who teach the Trinity. Of course, if you were able to provide an answer in season as to these serious objections that have been raised regarding your doctrine, then I could understand why you teach as you do, because at least you would have some substance to your words and understanding. But so far, there are serious objections that point to your doctrine being wrong, and you have no reasonable answer for them. This means in the best case scenario, your doctrine could be wrong. Worst case scenario, it is wrong and you also refuse to hear the truth. IMO, it is worth it to at least attempt to answer these objections so you/we can see how strong your doctrine is. Surely such is not a fruitless exercise, because allowing it to be tested with scripture can only be a learning exercise for all who read. And if we cast aside pride and are humble and teachable, then even better.

t8,

I know you disagree and I have done my best in attempting to answer all questions. It is not my fault that you do not agree with how I have answered, but I have answered!

BTW, It is not “[MY] doctrine”. It is the instruction of Father Yahweh's inspired word.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 15 2011,11:06)

Frank4 Yahweh…………………….Don't get discourage by Mike thinking we don't answer his questions, many many here have answered them over and over and He still says the same thing as if those question weren't answered at all, What he is really saying they are not answered his way, the way he wasn't them to be answered.   Frank there are others here who do not believe in Jesus' Preexistence also , Kerwin, Paladin, Marty, Martian , and also on,  has others through out the years. You have three distinct types of believers here, those who believe Jesus preexisted  as GOD and came down to earth in the form of a Man, Those who believe Jesus was not a GOD but a preexisting Angel or demigod or something, They cant tell you what fore sure. These groups compose about 90 % of all so-called Christians today, Then you have a small percent like you and I and some others who do not believe Jesus preexisted his existence on the earth except in the Plan and will of God. There are others here who i believe are coming to the Light of this truth also like Shimmer. And i believe the owner of this site T8 might be reconsidering some of his past beliefs also. Just my opinions. I believe it is a Blessing from God that He has allowed us to see these truths.   You will get to know the others by following there Posts and jumping in and posting to them. Any way welcome to the site, and remember Jesus said we shall all be salted with Fire and you will get some of that here brother. Peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………..gene

Gene,

Thank you for letting me know of others here who believe as we do. I will certainly check out their posts out.

To The Opposition,

Nowhere in Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine “Jesus IS God!” nor am I ever asked in Scripture to believe and confess the Trinitarian concept of a “pre-existent Son”. You people seem to believe that it is not “good enough” that I confess and believe that Yahshua is the Messiah the son of the living Yahweh as Scripture clearly asked me to confess and believe, but you seem to insist that I also believe and confess that Yahshua is “God” or “a god” which Scripture never makes any mention that I should confess and believe such foolishness.

“Jesus IS God!”?

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

BAAL GAD (LORD GOD)

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