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Following is an excerpt from: http://www.torahofmessiah.com/enyprexist.html that follows closely to what it is that I believe:
Yahweh's Firstborn
Two scriptures are often used to show that Yahshua was the very first act of creation by Yahweh. Everything else is said to have been created by, or with the help of, Yahshua. Those scriptures are Col.1:15 and Rev.3:14. Let's look at Col.1:15 first. “Who is the image of the invisible Elohim, the firstborn of every creature :” What does the latter part of this verse mean? Does “every creature” include the angels that rejoiced at creation?
To understand this verse, you must first understand that Yahweh is in the process of creating a new world; “the world to come” as Heb.2:5 puts it. Is.65:17,18 speaks of “new heavens and a new earth.” Those that will rule in the new earth are those that will be resurrected or “born from above” (Jn.3:7). Ps.102:18-20 puts it very clearly; “This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise Yahweh. For He hath looked down from the height of His sanctuary; from heaven did Yahweh behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;” These people will be created , or born, at the resurrection.
To clarify even further, we read the following in Ps.104:29,30; “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created : and thou renewest the face of the earth.” Yahweh will resurrect the dead through the power of His Holy Spirit. It is said of those that are resurrected that they are “created .”
The first person to be created, or born again from above, was Yahshua. Therefore, he is called the “firstborn.” Since there are many that will be born again at the resurrection, he is the “firstborn of every creature (that will be resurrected).” Col. 1:18 elaborates further by telling us what Yahshua is the firstborn of; the dead. This takes place at the resurrection. It is also said of Yahshua that he is “the beginning” (Col.1:18). This is the same term used in Rev.3:14 which reads, “And unto the angel of the assembly of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of Yahweh; ” Does this beginning refer to a time before the angels were created or does it refer to the new creation? Some would argue that the word “new” is not in the text. Yahweh has shown us, however, that He does not always use the word “new” in describing this new creation. Notice Is.65:17,18; “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.” This is speaking of New Jerusalem, yet the word “New” is not used by Yahweh.
Continuing in Colossians to verse 17 we read, “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” As a result of this translation, we are led to believe that Yahshua existed prior to anything else, including the angels. The same Greek phrase, “before all things,” is also found in Ja.5:12 and 1 Pe.4:8. Both of those texts read “above all things.” That is because the Greek word “pro,” translated “before,” also carries the meaning of superiority or pre-eminence. Since Col.1:15-18 proclaims the pre-eminence of Yahshua in all things (vs.18), translating verse 17 as “above all things” would fit the context.
It is said that the phrase “according to the flesh,” in Rom.1:3, proves Yahshua's pre-existence. It reads, “Concerning his Son Yahshua Messiah our Master, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;” It is implied from this that Yahshua existed as a spirit being before he was born according to the flesh, for why else would Paul say this? The simple reason is because Yahshua did not have an earthly father. Therefore, whether he was true flesh and blood and David's seed would come into question. Paul adds “according to the flesh” for the same reason he adds “was made of the seed of David.” Even though Yahshua did not have a flesh and blood father, he is still flesh through Miriam. He is not a spirit being or an angel that appeared in the flesh as did those who appeared to Abraham in Gen.18:2; 19:1.
Yahweh's Son
The Trinity doctrine states the Son is coeternal with the Father. Others believe the Son was the first being Yahweh created. Either view believes the “Son” pre-existed prior to his earthly birth. If that is true, how are we to understand the following words Yahweh commanded Nathan to give to David?
“When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be My son.” (2 Sam. 7:12-14)
Although these words primarily applied to Solomon (1 Chr.28:6), ultimately the reference is to Yahshua the Messiah, the “Son of David” (Lu.1:32,33; Heb.1:5). Heb.1:5 reads, ” For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”
Since the New Testament clearly links the words, “I will be his father, and he shall be My son” to Yahshua, note well the future tense used. If Yahshua pre-existed as Yahweh's coeternal Son or as Yahweh's first act of creation, the words “I am his Father,” and “he is my son,” should have been used. Therefore, this prophetic reference to Yahshua clearly teaches that he became Yahweh's Son at a specific time in history. He did not always exist as Yahweh's Son as the Trinity doctrine teaches. Nor could he have existed as the first act of creation since 2 Sam.7:14 places his becoming the Son at a time that was in David's future.
The Form of Elohim
This brings us to the most difficult passage of Scripture to understand. The key to understanding it lies in your stand concerning the pre-existence doctrine as a whole. If you reject what has been written up to this point and continue to hold unto a belief in the pre-existence, you will most likely fail to comprehend this last passage as well. Those that are not locked into a preconceived idea will grasp its meaning much easier.The passage in question, Ph.2:5-9, reads as follows; “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua: Who, being in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with Yahweh: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore Yahweh also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:” (KJV)
To begin with, what does verse 5 mean? Does it mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua . If Yahshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yahshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yahshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as “the Word.” Yahshua did not officially become “the Anointed” or “the Messiah” until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).
As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, co
nsider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.”Yahshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.
In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father Yahweh. As a reward for his obedience, Yahweh has highly exalted him. A future exaltation will be the reward of all true believers if they, too, will humble themselves as Yahshua did.
This study has only touched upon certain aspects of the pre-existence doctrine. For additional information, please see the study entitled “My WebpageYahshua is not Yahweh – Part 1 and 2.” That study will explain many other verses used to support the pre-existence. Among the verses discussed are; Ge.1:26; 19:24; Ps.110:5; Ze.12:10; Mi.5:2; Jn.1:1,10; 8:58; 12:37-41; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor.8:6; 10:4; Eph.3:9; Col.1:16; 1 Tim.3:16; and Heb.1:2. The study also explains such terms as Elohim and echad.
Frank
Quote As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.” but you do not mention the fact 'that no men was his father ” so what was Christ
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
No, I am not willing to learn along with you, since I already know what it is that you believe and I do not believe as you do.
I see. You are not willing to actually discuss Phil 2:6-8 with a live human being, but are willing to post someone else's explanation of it? Okay, then let me discuss Phil 2 with this writer that can't even answer back to me, okay?First, I must say that I agree with 90% of what this unnamed author wrote. He/she makes very good and logical points that refute the Trinitarian claim that Phil 2 equalizes Jesus with his own God. But here are a few discrepancies:
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
7a) But made himself of no reputation. [NIV But made himself nothing RSV But emptied himself]We have been told for hundreds of years that this is saying the Son divested or set aside his power and glory and became a man. Where did this idea come from, where are the scriptures to back-up this illogical theory?
Answer: I suppose the idea came from many scriptures, one of which is John 17:5, in which Jesus asks for the return of the glory he had alongside his God before the world was made – the glory he had left behind to take on the form of a servant.This scripture is solidly supported by one that your own author quotes – John 1:14. In that scripture, we find confirmation that the Word who was with God in the beginning BECAME flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of the only begotten Son of God that he was.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
The truth is, if he did build himself a reputation (or make himself something) he would not be seeking His Father’s will.
Questions: What exactly did Jesus “empty himself” OF to become a humble servant, if humble servant is all he EVER was?If “form of God” truly means Jesus was a man like everyone else, what is it that he “emptied himself” of in order to be made in the likeness of a man?
And if Jesus would not have been seeking his Father's will by building himself a reputation, then what “reputation” did he “empty himself” of?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
The NIV & RSV bring out the true reading that is almost like saying, “took upon him the form of a servant, as he was in the likeness of men.”
“Almost like saying”?
Is this horse shoes or hand grenades? Actually, it is closer to saying, “and took upon him the form of a servant BY BEING made in the likeness of a human being”. Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
The Bible tells us he was born first and then at the age of 30 became a servant.
Does this mean that Jesus did not serve his God until he was 30 years old? While I was composing this post, I saw that you posted a different author, who said: “As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do.” Which one of these two things do you believe, Frank? It can't be both, since they contradict each other.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
Paul isn’t saying Yahshua stepped down from a pre-existent state of power and glory, he’s simply saying Yahshua was “meek and lowly in heart” (Mt 11:29)……….
Then how do we explain 17:5, where Jesus is asking for the RETURN of the glory he stepped down from? And tell me exactly when Jesus WASN'T “meek and lowly in heart” to the point that he had to empty himself and BECOME “meek and lowly in heart”.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
……….and “made himself of no reputation.”
How could he MAKE HIMSELF of no reputation unless he WAS of some reputation previously? Also Frank, have you noticed that the reasoning of your author flies in the face of your own “he was a mighty one” argument? Which was he: a mighty one? Or a meek and lowly hearted servant?Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
He did this despite the fact he was capable of becoming a great, wealthy and powerful individual, far surpassing anyone alive at that time, or our time for that matter. But instead of heaping glory upon himself and bringing all others in subjection, he “took upon him(self) the form of a servant.”
This is illogical. If Jesus COULD HAVE BEEN great, but never once capitalized on it, then there would have been nothing for him to empty himself of to become a servant.The ONLY way he could have emptied himself to BECOME a servant is if he was previously in a much higher position.
The ONLY way he could have emptied himself to BE MADE into the likeness of a human being is if he previously was NOT a human being. Otherwise, the wording simply doesn't make sense.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
This is the message Paul is conveying: 6 Yahshua was in Yahweh’s form (as are we), his direct and only descendant, yet he did not attempt to seize power from or elevate himself to the status of his Father.
That leaves absolutely nothing for Jesus to empty himself of.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
7 Instead he did the opposite, and lowered himself to a nobody, a servant………
Opposite of WHAT? The scripture says he ALREADY WAS something before he EMPTIED HIMSELF. How could emptying himself convey an “OPPOSITE” to something if Jesus never WAS anything but humble?Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:21)
8 After being found by his disciples as a man, a human being, he submitted obediently to the death on the cross.
As opposed to being found as WHAT? What's the point of saying “being FOUND in the likeness of a man” if he never was anything else but a man? Frank, here is your understanding, with my notes attached:
1. Jesus was existing in the form of God, which means he was a human being just like the rest of us who are made in God's image.
2. But even though he was a human being just like all of us, he never considered equality with God something to be grasped. (What? How many humans do you think Paul knew that DID consider equality with God something to be grasped? Paul's statement makes no sense unless Jesus was somehow in a position where equality with God could seem attainable. A position not unlike Satan's position – who apparently DID think he could attain equality with the God who created him.)
3. Even though Jesus was never anything other than a human being just like the rest of us, he somehow MADE himself of no reputation. (How can he MAKE himself of no reputation if he had no reputation to start with?)
4. He took upon him the form of a servant. (Again, how could he TAKE UPON HIM the form of a servant if he had never BEEN anything other than a servant?)
5. And was made in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING. (This is your biggest hurdle of all, Frank. No human being in the history of creation would ever be said to have been MADE INTO the likeness of a human being. The ONLY way one could be MADE INTO the likeness of a human being is if that one was NOT in the likeness of a human being prior to being MADE INTO the likeness of a human being.)
Frank, instead of quoting long writings from others, why don't we just start with Phil 2:6 and discuss our understandings of this passage? What are you afraid of? If your understanding is the correct one, then show me so that I too can speak truth about this matter.
mike
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:42) Following is an excerpt from: http://www.torahofmessiah.com/enyprexist.html that follows closely to what it is that I believe:
Frank,While you are welcome to post these things here, I personally don't have the time to respond to every point made by your unlimited list of internet authors.
So you can keep posting these people who aren't here to answer our questions if it somehow makes you feel justified with your understanding of Jesus' pre-existent state.
Personally, I feel that a man who just posts pages of OTHER PEOPLE'S work is not a man who is sure enough of his own understanding to stand and defend it against the actual scriptures.
I keep offering you the chance to do just that, and you keep refusing. That tells me that I'm either right and you know it, or that you just don't want to FIND OUT that I'm right.
But, anytime you're willing to stop copying others who aren't here to answer our points about what they've written, we'll be here to discuss what the scriptures actually say about the pre-existence of Jesus with you.
peace,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Nov. 06 2011,10:45) Frank Quote As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.” but you do not mention the fact 'that no men was his father ” so what was Christ
Yahshua is the Messiah to SON of the living Yahweh. We know for a fact that Yahweh was Yahshua's FATHER, since he is frequently recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as referring to Him as his and our FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN when he himself was HERE ON EARTH. Yahweh is also recorded in this same section of the Book as referring to Yahshua as His SON.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,11:39) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,17:42) Following is an excerpt from: http://www.torahofmessiah.com/enyprexist.html that follows closely to what it is that I believe:
Frank,While you are welcome to post these things here, I personally don't have the time to respond to every point made by your unlimited list of internet authors.
So you can keep posting these people who aren't here to answer our questions if it somehow makes you feel justified with your understanding of Jesus' pre-existent state.
Personally, I feel that a man who just posts pages of OTHER PEOPLE'S work is not a man who is sure enough of his own understanding to stand and defend it against the actual scriptures.
I keep offering you the chance to do just that, and you keep refusing. That tells me that I'm either right and you know it, or that you just don't want to FIND OUT that I'm right.
But, anytime you're willing to stop copying others who aren't here to answer our points about what they've written, we'll be here to discuss what the scriptures actually say about the pre-existence of Jesus with you.
peace,
mike
Mike,Scripture has nothing whatsoever to say about Yahshua's pre-existence, since he did not pre-exist his birth.
I know for a fact that you are not right and that Father Yahweh's prophetic word is right. I have no desire whatsoever to discuss what you believe scriptures actually say about the pre-existence of Jesus.
Really Frank? Why not just answer two simple little questions then:
What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2?
How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 06 2011,18:52) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 06 2011,10:45) Frank Quote As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.” but you do not mention the fact 'that no men was his father ” so what was Christ
Yahshua is the Messiah to SON of the living Yahweh. We know for a fact that Yahweh was Yahshua's FATHER, since he is frequently recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as referring to Him as his and our FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN when he himself was HERE ON EARTH. Yahweh is also recorded in this same section of the Book as referring to Yahshua as His SON.
frankso if Christ is the son of God because he is born from God ,he most have been Gods son before ,he came as a human right ??
God only confirm the son ship at his baptism for Gods work for him to do, came to be started and so all as to be accomplished by Christ ,the fact that God mention that Christ was his son was not to convinced them of what they are to each other(father and son), but men.
if Christ did not preexisted then God made a new creation right ?
and then he would not rest ,like he said in Gen ;on the 7 day.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,12:39) Really Frank? Why not just answer two simple little questions then: What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2?
How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?
Yes, really Mike!,The contents of Philippians chapter 2 is speaking of one humbling themselves and becoming one with each other. In other words, the contents is instructing us not to be high-minded above our fellow brethren and is not to be used to prove anyone pre-existed their birth. Yahshua also humbled (or “emptied”) himself and we are to take on this same attitude or being of like mind. Although Yahshua knew full well that he was unique in comparison to us in that he was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth and in turn being a mighty one like unto Moshe, he humbled himself as being one in unity with his fellow brethren in belief and faith. He was not boastful or proud in thinking himself better than his fellow brethren, but instead became a humble fellow servant (“emptied himself” or “made himself of no reputation” as being a mighty one in the Earth) in unity and in agreement with them. Yahshua is also unique in that he is the first fruit of the “first fruits” of many sons. He was not boastful or proud concerning this. Note he even states that the first shall be last and the last shall be first and that his fellow servants were to do greater things than what he had done.
So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen (Mattithyah [Matthew] 10:16).
Yahshua was also called and chosen to be an Apostle (one sent forth).
I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahchanan [John] 14:12).
As to you question “How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?”:
I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actaul being before my birth.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 13 2011,15:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,12:39) Really Frank? Why not just answer two simple little questions then: What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2?
Although Yahshua knew full well that he was unique in comparison to us in that he was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth and in turn being a mighty one like unto Moshe, he humbled himself as being one in unity with his fellow brethren in belief and faith.
So your answer to what Jesus emptied himself of is: All Authority in Heaven and Earth?Is that your answer, Frank?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 13 2011,15:04) As to you question “How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?”: I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actaul being before my birth.
Are you saying that you were made into the likeness of a human being AFTER you ALREADY WERE a human being?At what point in your human life did this happen, Frank? Please explain.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,08:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,12:39) Really Frank? Why not just answer two simple little questions then: What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2?
How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?
Yes, really Mike!,The contents of Philippians chapter 2 is speaking of one humbling themselves and becoming one with each other. In other words, the contents is instructing us not to be high-minded above our fellow brethren and is not to be used to prove anyone pre-existed their birth. Yahshua also humbled (or “emptied”) himself and we are to take on this same attitude or being of like mind. Although Yahshua knew full well that he was unique in comparison to us in that he was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth and in turn being a mighty one like unto Moshe, he humbled himself as being one in unity with his fellow brethren in belief and faith. He was not boastful or proud in thinking himself better than his fellow brethren, but instead became a humble fellow servant (“emptied himself” or “made himself of no reputation” as being a mighty one in the Earth) in unity and in agreement with them. Yahshua is also unique in that he is the first fruit of the “first fruits” of many sons. He was not boastful or proud concerning this. Note he even states that the first shall be last and the last shall be first and that his fellow servants were to do greater things than what he had done.
So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen (Mattithyah [Matthew] 10:16).
Yahshua was also called and chosen to be an Apostle (one sent forth).
I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahchanan [John] 14:12).
As to you question “How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?”:
I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actaul being before my birth.
Frank4Yahweh………………..Welcome brother, you have rightly spoken the truth here, it is refreshing to see others understand this truth also. Indeed Jesus did not Preexist his berth on this earth, He only existed in the mind and will of GOD and was the Prophesied Messiah to come by Moses and others prophets of God. You have presented it right brother.peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2011,09:16) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 13 2011,15:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,12:39) Really Frank? Why not just answer two simple little questions then: What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2?
Although Yahshua knew full well that he was unique in comparison to us in that he was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth and in turn being a mighty one like unto Moshe, he humbled himself as being one in unity with his fellow brethren in belief and faith.
So your answer to what Jesus emptied himself of is: All Authority in Heaven and Earth?Is that your answer, Frank?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 13 2011,15:04) As to you question “How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?”: I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actaul being before my birth.
Are you saying that you were made into the likeness of a human being AFTER you ALREADY WERE a human being?At what point in your human life did this happen, Frank? Please explain.
Mike,No, that was really not my answer! Did you see anywhere on this forum where I had said “What Jesus emptied himself of is: All Authority in Heaven and Earth?” No, you did not! Let me further expound! What Yahshua emptied himself of (or “made himself of no reputation”) is pride. He made himself of no reputation of being boastful or proud because of his being given ALL power in Heaven and in the Earth, being the first fruit of the “first fruits” of many sons (daughters, children, people), and etc. This is how I would interpret your particular pet peeve translation that you have presented here in accordance with Scripture as a whole, although I believe that this is a Trinitarian interpretive translation that supports their “pre-existent Jesus” Trinitarian concept. If they did not have their “pre-existent Jesus God” their “Triune God” would not have a leg to stand on.
Did you see me say anywhere on this forum that I was “made into the likeness of a human being AFTER ALREADY [WAS] a human being.”? No you did not! Following is what I had actually said:
“I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actual being before my birth.”
Hi Frank,
It seems we are getting somewhere now.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,15:40)
What Yahshua emptied himself of (or “made himself of no reputation”) is pride.
When did Jesus have this pride to empty himself of? When was he of “high reputation” to the point he had to “make himself of no reputation”?Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,15:40)
“I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actual being before my birth.”
But were you at one point existing in the form of God, and then had to empty yourself of something to be made into the likeness of a human being? Or have you always been a human being?I guess I'm wondering if there was ever a time you had to “make yourself of no account” in order to be made into the likeness of a human being?
peace,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 15 2011,01:25) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,08:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,12:39) Really Frank? Why not just answer two simple little questions then: What exactly did Jesus EMPTY HIMSELF of in Phil 2?
How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?
Yes, really Mike!,The contents of Philippians chapter 2 is speaking of one humbling themselves and becoming one with each other. In other words, the contents is instructing us not to be high-minded above our fellow brethren and is not to be used to prove anyone pre-existed their birth. Yahshua also humbled (or “emptied”) himself and we are to take on this same attitude or being of like mind. Although Yahshua knew full well that he was unique in comparison to us in that he was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth and in turn being a mighty one like unto Moshe, he humbled himself as being one in unity with his fellow brethren in belief and faith. He was not boastful or proud in thinking himself better than his fellow brethren, but instead became a humble fellow servant (“emptied himself” or “made himself of no reputation” as being a mighty one in the Earth) in unity and in agreement with them. Yahshua is also unique in that he is the first fruit of the “first fruits” of many sons. He was not boastful or proud concerning this. Note he even states that the first shall be last and the last shall be first and that his fellow servants were to do greater things than what he had done.
So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen (Mattithyah [Matthew] 10:16).
Yahshua was also called and chosen to be an Apostle (one sent forth).
I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (Yahchanan [John] 14:12).
As to you question “How is someone who ALREADY IS a human being made into the likeness of a human being?”:
I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actaul being before my birth.
Frank4Yahweh………………..Welcome brother, you have rightly spoken the truth here, it is refreshing to see others understand this truth also. Indeed Jesus did not Preexist his berth on this earth, He only existed in the mind and will of GOD and was the Prophesied Messiah to come by Moses and others prophets of God. You have presented it right brother.peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Gene,Thank you for your kind welcome. I fully agree with what you have said as follows:
“Indeed Jesus did not Preexist his berth on this earth, He only existed in the mind and will of GOD and was the Prophesied Messiah to come by Moses and others prophets of God. …”
You are the kind that I had explained to Mike previously that I wanted to meet on this forum. I had explained to Mike that it was not my purpose to come here to dispute what it is that I believe with him, but he is insistent that I do so even though he knows full well that I do not enjoy such disputes. Yes, it is refreshing to see others understand this truth that Yahshua was born (came into existence) as an actual flesh and blood human being just like us that can sympathize with our weaknesses. I most certainly do not believe that a “God” that proclaims that it emptied itself of being a “God” and transformed itself into a flesh and blood human being can sympathize with me!
For this reason he HAD TO BE MADE LIKE HIS BOTHERS IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to Yahweh, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people (Hebrews 2:17).
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are–yet was without sin (Hebrews 4:15).
He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness (Hebrews 5:2).
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2011,09:08) Hi Frank, It seems we are getting somewhere now.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,15:40)
What Yahshua emptied himself of (or “made himself of no reputation”) is pride.
When did Jesus have this pride to empty himself of? When was he of “high reputation” to the point he had to “make himself of no reputation”?Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 14 2011,15:40)
“I am already a human being and was made into the likeness of a human being and had no pre-existence as an actual being before my birth.”
But were you at one point existing in the form of God, and then had to empty yourself of something to be made into the likeness of a human being? Or have you always been a human being?I guess I'm wondering if there was ever a time you had to “make yourself of no account” in order to be made into the likeness of a human being?
peace,
mike
Mike,I did not come here to get anywhere with you! In fact I did not initially address you when I came to this forum. It was you who addressed me! You are the one that is getting nowhere with your attempting to dispute what it is that I believe. I am most certainly never going to believe as you do and you are most certianly never going to believe as I do, so what would be the purpose of me discussing anything with you? This is exactly why I did not want to discuss anything with you!
I disagree Frank4YAHWEH.
From what I can see, you are not answering objections raised here.
This is symptomatic of someone who only hears teachers that itch his ears.
And ignores everything that doesn't agree.
This reminds me of the debates I have had with some who teach the Trinity.Of course, if you were able to provide an answer in season as to these serious objections that have been raised regarding your doctrine, then I could understand why you teach as you do, because at least you would have some substance to your words and understanding.
But so far, there are serious objections that point to your doctrine being wrong, and you have no reasonable answer for them.
This means in the best case scenario, your doctrine could be wrong.
Worst case scenario, it is wrong and you also refuse to hear the truth.IMO, it is worth it to at least attempt to answer these objections so you/we can see how strong your doctrine is.
Surely such is not a fruitless exercise, because allowing it to be tested with scripture can only be a learning exercise for all who read.And if we cast aside pride and are humble and teachable, then even better.
Frank4 Yahweh…………………….Don't get discourage by Mike thinking we don't answer his questions, many many here have answered them over and over and He still says the same thing as if those question weren't answered at all, What he is really saying they are not answered his way, the way he wasn't them to be answered.
Frank there are others here who do not believe in Jesus' Preexistence also , Kerwin, Paladin, Marty, Martian , and also on, has others through out the years. You have three distinct types of believers here, those who believe Jesus preexisted as GOD and came down to earth in the form of a Man, Those who believe Jesus was not a GOD but a preexisting Angel or demigod or something, They cant tell you what fore sure. These groups compose about 90 % of all so-called Christians today, Then you have a small percent like you and I and some others who do not believe Jesus preexisted his existence on the earth except in the Plan and will of God. There are others here who i believe are coming to the Light of this truth also like Shimmer. And i believe the owner of this site T8 might be reconsidering some of his past beliefs also. Just my opinions.
I believe it is a Blessing from God that He has allowed us to see these truths.
You will get to know the others by following there Posts and jumping in and posting to them. Any way welcome to the site, and remember Jesus said we shall all be salted with Fire and you will get some of that here brother.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2011,10:40) Hi Frank, Are you unable to answer the questions?
Mike,I have answered you questions! BTW! Your avatar fits you well in that you don't even bother to hide in sheep clothing.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 15 2011,10:59) I disagree Frank4YAHWEH. From what I can see, you are not answering objections raised here.
This is symptomatic of someone who only hears teachers that itch his ears.
And ignores everything that doesn't agree.
This reminds me of the debates I have had with some who teach the Trinity.Of course, if you were able to provide an answer in season as to these serious objections that have been raised regarding your doctrine, then I could understand why you teach as you do, because at least you would have some substance to your words and understanding.
But so far, there are serious objections that point to your doctrine being wrong, and you have no reasonable answer for them.
This means in the best case scenario, your doctrine could be wrong.
Worst case scenario, it is wrong and you also refuse to hear the truth.IMO, it is worth it to at least attempt to answer these objections so you/we can see how strong your doctrine is.
Surely such is not a fruitless exercise, because allowing it to be tested with scripture can only be a learning exercise for all who read.And if we cast aside pride and are humble and teachable, then even better.
t8,I know you disagree and I have done my best in attempting to answer all questions. It is not my fault that you do not agree with how I have answered, but I have answered!
BTW, It is not “[MY] doctrine”. It is the instruction of Father Yahweh's inspired word.
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