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Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2011,23:03) God does not sire children as we do.
So almost all of the creations of God that are known to us are able to produce children directly from their own being…………….but the God who created all these creatures is somehow unable to do the same?
Kerwin, who is the “son” in Proverbs 30:4?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 25 2011,06:38) Terricca………And if you do not believe GOD said He created everything alone and by himself then you do not know or except scripture truth, and don't really have a love for the truth also right? Perhaps you don't know what alone and by myself means. According to you Trinitarians and Preexistences you believe GOD did it “THROUGH” Jesus, but GOD said he did it alone and by himslef What part of those scriptures you don't believe Pierre. peace and love……………………………………………..gene
Genescriptures says that God alone create all things ,and that is true ,it is very true,
you do not understand scriptures and truth,
no place it says that Christ is the origin of creation,this is God only, but that the father create all things trough him ,
just understand what it means ,
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2011,05:32) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2011,23:03) God does not sire children as we do.
So almost all of the creations of God that are known to us are able to produce children directly from their own being…………….but the God who created all these creatures is somehow unable to do the same?Kerwin, who is the “son” in Proverbs 30:4?
Mike,God will not divide himself for a kingdom divided will not stand.
As for Proverbs 30:4,
The nation of Israel is called the son of God is Hosea 11:1 and the child of God in Jeremiah 31:9.
and
Ephraim is called a son in Jeremiah 31:20 and his firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9.
Never the less it is a prophecy and God does use entendre and so it could also be a prophecy of the comming Anointed one.
Quote
The nation of Israel is called the son of God is Hosea 11:1 and the child of God in Jeremiah 31:9.and
Ephraim is called a son in Jeremiah 31:20 and his firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9.Never the less it is a prophecy and God does use entendre and so it could also be a prophecy of the comming Anointed one.
Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
Firstborn or not, but they are not the only BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHR…. are they????No….Irene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 24 2011,23:16)
Mike,God will not divide himself for a kingdom divided will not stand.
Nor did I divide myself when I begot my son. How does this answer the point that all of God's creations can beget natural offspring after themselves, but apparently God Almighty cannot?Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 24 2011,23:16)
As for Proverbs 30:4,The nation of Israel is called the son of God is Hosea 11:1 and the child of God in Jeremiah 31:9.
Never the less it is a prophecy and God does use entendre and so it could also be a prophecy of the comming Anointed one.
Proverbs 30 is not a prophecy at all. But if you want to pretend that Agur is referring the the Nation of Israel as the son of God in that verse, I can't stop you.I anxiously await your response to the prior post I made to you. The one about all things being created through the Word, God's Son, and Jesus Christ.
peace,
mikeMIke………Here is one for you, “OUR FATHER” which art in heaven ……………> please tell us all who the OUR is in our Father. God the FATHER is the FATHER of ALL CREATION, Jesus and us all, GOD read how many time Jesus said your Father in heave knows you have need of these thing and other like statements he Said.
You Trinitarians and Preexistences “SEPARATIST” , are alway trying to SEPARATE Jesus from our EXACT IDENTITY And a time will come when you will be separated from Him as you. WISH AND PREACH IMO.
peace and love……………………………………………………gene
Mike,
Quote Nor did I divide myself when I begot my son. How does this answer the point that all of God's creations can beget natural offspring after themselves, but apparently God Almighty cannot? The being of God is God just like the flesh of a human is human. To take a part of God from God means you have two Gods that are both worthy to be worshipped.
Quote Proverbs 30 is not a prophecy at all. The KJV of Proverbs 30:1 explicitly states it is a prophecy. I was going by those words.
Quote The one about all things being created through the Word, God's Son, and Jesus Christ. Scripture explicitly states that all things in the old creation were created by the Word of God.
Scripture make it clear that all things of the new creation are created through Jesus Anointed.
Quote I anxiously await your response to the prior post I made to you. I have used my time tonight but perhaps I will be able to address you point tomorrow if the Lord so wills.
Kerwin
Proverb LXX version
Chapter 30
30:1 The ungodly man flees when no one pursues: but the righteous is confident as a lion. 2 By reason of the sins of ungodly men quarrels arise; but a wise man will quell them. 3 A bold man oppresses the poor by ungodly deeds. As an impetuous and profitable rain, 4 so they that forsake the law praise ungodliness; but they that love the law fortify themselves with a wall. 5 Evil men will not understand judgment: but they that seek the Lord will understand everything.I do not know where you get extra to verse one ?The KJV of Proverbs 30:1 explicitly states it is a prophecy. I was going by those words.
always check more version
Pierre
Kerwin! I was just reading what you said about God
Quote The being of God is God just like the flesh of a human is human. To take a part of God from God means you have two Gods that are both worthy to be worshipped.
Jesus in John 1 and Hebrew 1 is called God…
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Does that make Jesus God to be worshiped???
Scriptures state that only Jehovah God should be worshiped…Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship
When you understand that God and The Word of God are titles it becomes much easier to understand what Scriptures say…
Jesus Himself said this
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
It also states that God by Jesus created all….
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Peace Irene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 26 2011,08:43) MIke………Here is one for you, “OUR FATHER” which art in heaven ……………> please tell us all who the OUR is in our Father
Yes Gene,I realize that our Father is also Jesus' Father. But remember that he is also the Father of the angels.
MIke………..Right so you realize that Our Father is the Same Father as Jesus' Father is correct?, then why try so hard to separates Him from our exact identity with the Father that Jesus had or has God the Father is NO respecter of persons, Mike we or anyone can have the exact relationship with the FATHER as Jesus ever had or ever will have. Many do not believe that and maybe that is why their Prayers are not answered because of there lack of true Faith in the ONE AND ONLY “TRUE GOD” IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2011,23:10)
The being of God is God just like the flesh of a human is human. To take a part of God from God means you have two Gods that are both worthy to be worshipped.
God is a spirit being, and would therefore beget, not Himself, but another, different spirit being. What you imply is that people would bow down and pay taxes to the infant child of King David, just because that child's FATHER is the King. The King of Israel would not beget other Kings of Israel, causing Israel to have many kings at one time. Likewise, the Omniscient Creator of all things would not beget the Omniscient Creator of all things, causing us to have two of them. Instead, God would beget a DIFFERENT spirit being who was NOT the Omniscient Creator of all things, and therefore NOT worthy of the worship we give only to the Omniscient Creator of all things.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2011,23:10)
The KJV of Proverbs 30:1 explicitly states it is a prophecy. I was going by those words.
I can't think of any Proverb that is a prophecy.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2011,23:10)
Scripture explicitly states that all things in the old creation were created by the Word of God.
That is correct.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2011,23:10)
Scripture make it clear that all things of the new creation are created through Jesus Anointed.
Actually, scripture doesn't specify that only “NEW things” are created through Jesus. The fact of the matter is that scripture uses the words “ALL things”, just like it does with the Word of God. Can you prove me wrong? I've posted the scriptures recently. I'm seeing “ALL things” in those scriptures. Where exactly are you seeing “only the NEW things”?Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2011,23:10)
I have used my time tonight but perhaps I will be able to address you point tomorrow if the Lord so wills.
Take your time, Kerwin.peace,
mikeMike! The Our Father is also a prayer Jesus gave us, as an example how to pray….Unfortunately the Catholic Church misuses that prayer by repeating it over and over again, like the Rosary….There is also a very nice Song that uses the prayer for the lyrics….
Peace IreneYeah, there is a new song that uses that prayer for the lyrics! I love the song. I will post it on your song thread so you can hear it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,03:46) Yeah, there is a new song that uses that prayer for the lyrics! I love the song. I will post it on your song thread so you can hear it.
Great, thank you and I will look it up…Mike,
In an attempt not to be overwhelmed by sheer volume, I am breaking your post into parts.
It is flawed reasoning to believe that John 1:3, Hebrews1:2, and Colossians 1:13-16 are all speaking of the same thing just because the words are the same. For example I can say “I made all of this” and at another time I can say “I made all of this” and yet be speaking of two different things. Therefore context is important.
So putting John 1:3 in the context of John 1:1-18 I will assure you that it speaks only of the old creation and not the new because it speaks of a time before the new creation began to exist. Both Hebrews 1:2 and Colossians 1:13-16 speak of a time after the new creation began to exist.
You are attempting to interpret “the word “Word” in John 1:1-18 symbolically when a literal interpretation of it is true.
To test if a literal understanding works for John 1:3, I tested if the statement made in it about the Word is true. Anyone that reads the story of creation in Genesis should know that it is true about the literal Word that:
Quote John 1
King James Version (KJV)3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2011,00:13) Mike, In an attempt not to be overwhelmed by sheer volume, I am breaking your post into parts.
It is flawed reasoning to believe that John 1:3, Hebrews1:2, and Colossians 1:13-16 are all speaking of the same thing just because the words are the same. For example I can say “I made all of this” and at another time I can say “I made all of this” and yet be speaking of two different things. Therefore context is important.
So putting John 1:3 in the context of John 1:1-18 I will assure you that it speaks only of the old creation and not the new because it speaks of a time before the new creation began to exist. Both Hebrews 1:2 and Colossians 1:13-16 speak of a time after the new creation began to exist.
You are attempting to interpret “the word “Word” in John 1:1-18 symbolically when a literal interpretation of it is true.
To test if a literal understanding works for John 1:3, I tested if the statement made in it about the Word is true. Anyone that reads the story of creation in Genesis should know that it is true about the literal Word that:
Quote John 1
King James Version (KJV)3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
kerwinyou are speculating in your own mind,if you have inside show it do not say foolish thing based on your own feelings,
if scriptures says what it says and we have it wrong you would clearly be able to show your point in the way of truth ,of scriptures ,
so do it or do not say you know when you do not ,what you believe is also your personal acceptance of what ever you feel is true to you,this does not make it the TRUTH of God,
read Col 1;15 to 20
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the crossHeb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,tell us Kerwin what are those scriptures are saying
Pierre
I see, Kerwin. So when Col 1:16 says that all things in heaven and earth were made through him, it means something different then when those same words are said in John 1?
If all you have is your WISH for the word “ALL” to sometimes mean “ALL”, and other times mean “NEW”, then there is no point in continuing this discussion, my friend.
When it comes to the point where my opponent has to start adding or changing the words of scripture in order for their doctrine to work, it's time for me to bail out. This is the reason I often walk away from discussions with Gene. I can't compete when I'm bound by the actual words of scripture and my opponent is allowed to make up his own scriptures.
peace,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2011,11:58) Kerwin Proverb LXX version
Chapter 30
30:1 The ungodly man flees when no one pursues: but the righteous is confident as a lion. 2 By reason of the sins of ungodly men quarrels arise; but a wise man will quell them. 3 A bold man oppresses the poor by ungodly deeds. As an impetuous and profitable rain, 4 so they that forsake the law praise ungodliness; but they that love the law fortify themselves with a wall. 5 Evil men will not understand judgment: but they that seek the Lord will understand everything.I do not know where you get extra to verse one ?The KJV of Proverbs 30:1 explicitly states it is a prophecy. I was going by those words.
always check more version
Pierre
Pierre,“Massa'” is the Hebrew word translated to prophecy by the translators of the KJV it is one of several possible translation.
The chapter 28 of the KJV and other version seems to be the chapter 30 in the LXX version. Does the LXX have a chapter 32?
Mike…………..As i have said to you before your problem is with the word “THROUGH” it is translated 70 different way in scriptures , So how is it you use that word to be an example of any “proof text”, when you could just as easily put FOR or Because of, there?. Hardly a proof text for you or anyone else for that matte4r? Do you want me to post all the different ways that word is translated for you here, or will you just admit it can have all kinds of different way to be translated. Why not Just believe Jesus and what he Said that he could do “NOTHING” OF HIMSELF, BUT “the FATHER who was (IN) HIM DID THE WORKS”> IMO
peace and love………………………………………….gene
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