Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2011,12:13)

Mike, I am not claiming the Spirit of God is the Son of Man. I am claiming that you can infer from 1 Corinthians 2:11 that scripture calls the Spirit of God, God.

Hi Kerwin,

11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I don't see where the Spirit OF God is called “God” here.

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2011,12:13)

You can also take that reasoning further to conclude that in the same way scripture can call the Spirit, the Child of God.

Now you've totally lost me.  How do you jump from your first point to this conclusion?  

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2011,12:13)

In a previous post I stated that the Son of God and the Son man are the same individual.

Agreed.

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2011,12:13)

Jesus, a son of humanity, came into the Sonship when the Spirit came and directly made a home in him.  That union made him The Son of God.  That union also declared him to be first among mankind and so the Son of mankind.

You act as if God's Holy Spirit never rested on any other human being before or after Jesus.

What is your scriptural proof that Jesus was not already the Son of God, and then emptied himself and became a son of man to die as a sacrifice for us?  Sort of like he was rich, but then became poor for us.

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2011,12:13)

This is why Jesus taught that the Son of man came from above and will return there.

Jesus was the foretold Son of Man while he was still a spirit being having glory alongside his God.  He then was made flesh, and became a LITERAL son of man.  He is still called the Son of Man for the same reason Ronald Reagan is still referred to as “President Reagan”, even though he is no longer alive, let alone still the President of the United States of America.

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2011,12:13)

The Spirit of the Son came from God and united with Jesus and rendered him the Son of mankind.

No, the Spirit of GOD united with the flesh person Mary to cause the spirit Son of God to become flesh so that he could die for our sins.

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2011,12:13)

Because he walked by it and did not divorce it, even to the point of suffering and death, it will never leave him.   So when the Spirit of the Son returned to God, so did the Son of man.

So who exactly DIED as a ransom for us Kerwin?  Did the Spirit of the Son die along with the flesh body of the human being Jesus? Are human beings able to kill a SPIRIT, Kerwin?

Look Kerwin, your theory has all the same pieces as the truth of the matter.  But for some unknown reason, you want to jumble things around.  You say God did have a spirit Son way before Jesus walked the earth as a human being.  I agree.  But then you say this spirit Son UNITED WITH Jesus.  Why?  There is no scriptural teaching to support this.  When the disciples write about the one through whom all things were created, they don't separate “flesh Jesus” from “Spirit Son of God”, do they?

If so, then please show me the scriptures.  And if not, then why would you separate them?

Why not just accept that the Spirit Son of God BECAME flesh?  Why not just accept that the Spirit Son of God was existing in the form of his God, but then emptied himself and WAS MADE into the likeness of a HUMAN BEING?

It seems that you are bucking the system just to arrive at an almost identical conclusion to the one we have.  

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2011,14:11)

Whether my understanding of John's words are correct or not, I will assure you God testifies that: 1. The Word of God is God because it is his Word. 2. The Word of God is with God because the Spirit of God is with God and reveals the Word of God.   3. The Word was made human because the Spirit united with the human Jesus and the Spirit reveals the Word. 4. The Word made all thing and nothing was made without he/she/it. 5. The Word made human has a glory like the glory of the Spirit the glory of the Spirit is that is that he/she/it reveals the Word.

Hi Kerwin,

I will rebut your 5 statements with only one of the many questions coursing through my brain right now:

If the Word IS God, then God was united with flesh and DIED.  Kerwin, do you believe that GOD died?

Now, let's see if you can do the same with MY five:

1.  The Word of God is one of the titles of God's only begotten Son, because he is God's head spokesman.  That spokesman is NOT God Himself, but another who speaks God's words.

2.  This Spokesman (Word) of God was with God in the beginning.

3.  This spirit Son of God, known as the Word of God, was caused to BECOME a human being, emptying himself of his spirit being existence for a while.

4.  All things were created BY God THROUGH His Word.  (John 1:3)  Those same exact things were created THROUGH God's only begotten Son.  (Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:13-16)  Those same exact things were created THROUGH our Lord Jesus Christ.  (1 Corinthians 8:6)  This is undeniable evidence that the Word IS the Son of God who IS our Lord Jesus Christ, Kerwin.

5.  Even as a human being, it was evident to the disciples that this particular human being had a glory as of the only begotten from the Father.  (That's because this particular human being WAS the only begotten of the Father. )

Okay Kerwin.  Please answer MY first question to you, and show me any scripture that prohibits my list from being correct.

peace,
mike

[Pastry]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2011,12:19)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2011,14:11) Whether my understanding of John's words are correct or not, I will assure you God testifies that: 1. The Word of God is God because it is his Word. 2. The Word of God is with God because the Spirit of God is with God and reveals the Word of God.   3. The Word was made human because the Spirit united with the human Jesus and the Spirit reveals the Word. 4. The Word made all thing and nothing was made without he/she/it. 5. The Word made human has a glory like the glory of the Spirit the glory of the Spirit is that is that he/she/it reveals the Word. Hi Kerwin, I will rebut your 5 statements with only one of the many questions coursing through my brain right now: If the Word IS God, then God was united with flesh and DIED.  Kerwin, do you believe that GOD died? Now, let's see if you can do the same with MY five: 1.  The Word of God is one of the titles of God's only begotten Son, because he is God's head spokesman.  That spokesman is NOT God Himself, but another who speaks God's words. 2.  This Spokesman (Word) of God was with God in the beginning. 3.  This spirit Son of God, known as the Word of God, was caused to BECOME a human being, emptying himself of his spirit being existence for a while. 4.  All things were created BY God THROUGH His Word.  (John 1:3)  Those same exact things were created THROUGH God's only begotten Son.  (Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:13-16)  Those same exact things were created THROUGH our Lord Jesus Christ.  (1 Corinthians 8:6)  This is undeniable evidence that the Word IS the Son of God who IS our Lord Jesus Christ, Kerwin. 5.  Even as a human being, it was evident to the disciples that this particular human being had a glory as of the only begotten from the Father.  (That's because this particular human being WAS the only begotten of the Father. ) Okay Kerwin.  Please answer MY first question to you, and show me any scripture that prohibits my list from being correct. peace, mike

Mike! Good post, never thought about that…..Great question…..Irene

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

3.  This spirit Son of God, known as the Word of God, was caused to BECOME a human being, emptying himself of his spirit being existence for a while.

Your point three is clearly wrong as there is only one God and therefore God has no child of his body.

Quote

If the Word IS God, then God was united with flesh and DIED.  Kerwin, do you believe that GOD died?

Since the Spirit of God reveals the Word, is it not self evident that God reveals The Word.  Since it is so then why doubt that the Word is God.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2011,20:26)

Mike, Quote 3.  This spirit Son of God, known as the Word of God, was caused to BECOME a human being, emptying himself of his spirit being existence for a while. Your point three is clearly wrong as there is only one God and therefore God has no child of his body. Quote If the Word IS God, then God was united with flesh and DIED.  Kerwin, do you believe that GOD died? Since the Spirit of God reveals the Word, is it not self evident that God reveals The Word.  Since it is so then why doubt that the Word is God.

Kerwin

you are not Christ or God ,WHY DO YOU NOT PRODUCE SCRIPTURES TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW AGAINST MIKE POINT 3

AND HIS RESPOND;; If the Word IS God, then God was united with flesh and DIED. Kerwin, do you believe that GOD died?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2011,20:26)

Your point three is clearly wrong as there is only one God and therefore God has no child of his body.

Yet for some reason, Jesus is called the FIRSTBORN of God Himself.  And the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD whom God sent into the world.  And the Son of the Living God.  And the Son of the Most High God.

Kerwin, who is the “son” mentioned in Proverbs 30:4?  Who is the “son” mentioned in Psalm 2:7?

Do you think God knew how we as humans would understand the word “begotten” when He chose that word to describe His Son?

Please show me a scripture that says God has no child of His body.

And please DIRECTLY answer my first question:  Do you believe that GOD died?

And please DIRECTLY address my #4 point.

mike

[Pastry]

Kerwin!   The only begotten of the Father is The Word of God…. John 1:14 says so..And then John said this

Jhn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

.And you want us to believe that the Spirit of God died? how ridiculous is that….Mike made such a great comparison and you just ignore it……. and even want us to believe God died….. If you can't see that, I just shake my head….. Pray about it, maybe God will let you see it….Irene

[kerwin]

To all,

I do not have sufficient time to answer all the posts addressed to me and therefore will drop some. The ideas may be visited at a later time.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 24 2011,22:36)

To all, I do not have sufficient time to answer all the posts addressed to me and therefore will drop some.   The ideas may be visited at a later time.

kerwin

I understand it is easier to post than to respond

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 23 2011,08:32)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2011,20:26) Mike, Quote 3.  This spirit Son of God, known as the Word of God, was caused to BECOME a human being, emptying himself of his spirit being existence for a while. Your point three is clearly wrong as there is only one God and therefore God has no child of his body. Quote If the Word IS God, then God was united with flesh and DIED.  Kerwin, do you believe that GOD died? Since the Spirit of God reveals the Word, is it not self evident that God reveals The Word.  Since it is so then why doubt that the Word is God. Kerwin you are not Christ or God ,WHY DO YOU NOT PRODUCE SCRIPTURES TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW AGAINST MIKE POINT 3 AND HIS RESPOND;; If the Word IS God, then God was united with flesh and DIED.  Kerwin, do you believe that GOD died? Pierre

Pierre,

If you do not understand that there is only one God then you miss a critical point of the very scripture you claim to go by.  Even if I did cite it then why would you believe it any more than when you read it yourself.

There is one God, one Lord, one Spirit, and one body that compose the unity of the Spirit of God.

Many are called god but there is but one true God.

The word is God because God incarnates his own Word.

I am speaking of God's Word and not God.  More that one entity can be the incarnation of the Word of God.

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

4.  All things were created BY God THROUGH His Word.  (John 1:3)  Those same exact things were created THROUGH God's only begotten Son.  (Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:13-16)  Those same exact things were created THROUGH our Lord Jesus Christ.  (1 Corinthians 8:6)  This is undeniable evidence that the Word IS the Son of God who IS our Lord Jesus Christ, Kerwin.

You are reading into those scriptures, even if Hebrews 1:2 is translated correctly.     Scripture clearly speaks of two creations and yet you choose not to acknowledge the second one.   Never the less scripture explicitly states that the second creation accurse through Jesus anointed.  Jesus is not even mentioned at the account of the old creation.

[Pastry]

Kerwin!

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

When you understand that God is only a title, it beciomes easier to grsp…. When Scriptures say there is only one God, there is only ONE Almighty God or Jehovah God…

Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.

Psa 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jehovah, and rejoice before him.

Jehovah is the only God the most High God over all….His name ALONE is Jehovah…..

Irene

[kerwin]

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 24 2011,10:52)

Kerwin! Hbr 1:6   And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.   Hbr 1:7   And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.   Hbr 1:8   But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.   Hbr 1:9   Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.   When you understand that God is only a title, it beciomes easier to grsp…. When Scriptures say there is only one God, there is only ONE Almighty God or Jehovah God… Psa 83:18   That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.   Psa 68:4   Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jehovah, and rejoice before him.   Jehovah is the only God the most High God over all….His name ALONE is Jehovah….. Irene

Irene,

God is not a created being.  Nothing him existed at one time.  All that is exist, exists because he gives it being and in that way he is the Father of all.

God does not sire children as we do.  

His children are of his Spirit which is why Jesus was first to receive the promise of the Spirit whch he then shed forth to others even as testified in Acrt 2:33

Quote

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV) 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

[Pastry]

Kerwin!  Jehovah God is not a created being, true.  But Jesus is, and He too is called God, the Son of God…. He is called God because
He came forth from God….

Quote

Nothing him existed at one time.  All that is exist, exists because he gives it being and in that way he is the Father of all.

I don't know what you are trying to say here…. That God created all?  That is so…. even His Son… He is the firstborn of all creation.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 24 2011,22:45)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 23 2011,08:32) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2011,20:26) Mike, Quote 3.  This spirit Son of God, known as the Word of God, was caused to BECOME a human being, emptying himself of his spirit being existence for a while. Your point three is clearly wrong as there is only one God and therefore God has no child of his body. Quote If the Word IS God, then God was united with flesh and DIED.  Kerwin, do you believe that GOD died? Since the Spirit of God reveals the Word, is it not self evident that God reveals The Word.  Since it is so then why doubt that the Word is God. Kerwin you are not Christ or God ,WHY DO YOU NOT PRODUCE SCRIPTURES TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW AGAINST MIKE POINT 3 AND HIS RESPOND;; If the Word IS God, then God was united with flesh and DIED.  Kerwin, do you believe that GOD died? Pierre Pierre, If you do not understand that there is only one God then you miss a critical point of the very scripture you claim to go by.  Even if I did cite it then why would you believe it any more than when you read it yourself. There is one God, one Lord, one Spirit, and one body that compose the unity of the Spirit of God. Many are called god but there is but one true God. The word is God because God incarnates his own Word. I am speaking of God's Word and not God.  More that one entity can be the incarnation of the Word of God.

Kerwin

so nothing new there is only one God the father ,and the begotten son is,the first of all creation ,

I do not know how God created Christ his son ,it is not said ,but God has a son and he as used the son to create all creation,

now if you do not believe that ,then you have not come to the understanding of the truth of God

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Terricca………And if you do not believe GOD said He created everything alone and by himself then you do not know or except scripture truth, and don't really have a love for the truth also right? Perhaps you don't know what alone and by myself means. According to you Trinitarians and Preexistences you believe GOD did it “THROUGH” Jesus, but GOD said he did it alone and by himslef What part of those scriptures you don't believe Pierre.

peace and love……………………………………………..gene

[Pastry]

Pierre!   You are so right that God through Jesus created all
Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  

Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and then through Jesus God created asll….. That is according to Scriptures….

You do have love for all Scriptures and always will….to say that you don't is a lie….And you gave two Scriptures to prove it…….Peace and Love to You Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2011,22:45)

The word is God because God incarnates his own Word.

That sounds to me like you're saying God incarnates Himself.  And by that reasoning, anyone to whom the word of God comes is also an incarnation of God Himself.  Is this what you're saying, Kerwin?

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2011,22:45)

I am speaking of God's Word and not God.  More that one entity can be the incarnation of the Word of God.

And are those various, incarnate entities all God Himself?

Kerwin, to me it is this simple:  If YOU are saying that the Word IS God, then you are also saying that God became flesh, dwelled among us on earth with the glory of HIS OWN only begotten, died, raised HIMSELF from the dead, and now sits at HIS OWN right hand.

Is that really what you're meaning to say?  

peace,
mike

[Ed J]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 24 2011,16:03)

God does not sire children as we do.

Hi Kerwin,

Better take another look at Mathew 1:18-20 and Luke 1:35.
And Hebrews 7:28 for that matter (The Word maketh the Son).

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2011,22:52)

You are reading into those scriptures, even if Hebrews 1:2 is translated correctly.

Okay………….let's see if I am.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

This verse speaks of the Word mentioned in John 1:1.  Through the Word, ALL things were made……………not just “all of the NEW things”, right?  And without the Word, NOTHING was made………….not just “none of the NEW things”, right?

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

The word translated as “universe” is really the Greek word “aeon”, which means the “ages”.  But the word is definitely PLURAL, and therefore refers to MORE THAN ONE age.  So at the very least, God has created MORE THAN ONE age THROUGH His Son, right?

Colossians 1
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.

I started at verse 13, just so we are all clear that it is God's Son who is being described in the next verses.  But we want to focus our attention on verse 16, Kerwin.  Verse 16 tells us exactly WHAT was created through God's Son.  It tells us that ALL THINGS, (not just NEW things, as you imagine), were created through God's Son.  It goes on to emphasize that this “ALL THINGS” includes the things in heaven, the things on earth, visible things, invisible things, etc.  And then after the emphasis, as if to drive the point home, Paul REPEATS the words “ALL THINGS” once more.

Kerwin, there is no way you can gather “ONLY NEW THINGS” from the words of this scripture.  In fact, to do so would be to re-write the entire passage, totally changing the meaning of it.  To do so would be to do what you claimed I was doing – “reading into the scripture”.  

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

This scripture speaks of our Lord, Jesus Christ.  And it tells us once again that ALL THINGS, (not just the NEW things), came THROUGH him.  And again, to read “NEW THINGS” into this scripture when it CLEARLY says “ALL THINGS” would be a travesty.

So Kerwin, can you tell me which of these following claims are scripturally wrong:

1.  ALL things were made through the Word, and without HIM, nothing at all was made.  (John 1:3)

2.  More than one age was made through God's Son.  (Hebrews 1:2)

3.  ALL things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, were created through God's Son.  (Colossians 1:16)

4.  ALL things came through our Lord, Jesus Christ.  (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Or maybe you could point out where I'm “reading into those scriptures”………….so I know.

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2011,22:52)

Scripture clearly speaks of two creations and yet you choose not to acknowledge the second one.

I'm not ignoring it Kerwin.  I'm just not willing to change the very clear word “ALL” to “NEW” in the above scriptures, like you are apparently willing to do to further your doctrine.

peace,
mike

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