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Bump for Marty……………and also for Kerwin.
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 04 2011,09:59) Quote And since Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of this “new creation of God”, do those words mean that Jesus was the FIRST CREATURE EVER to be a part of this “new creation of God”? YES or NO? Yes
Love in Christ,
Marty
Okay Marty,Now we're getting somewhere. You've agreed that “FIRSTBORN OF THE NEW CREATION” would mean Jesus was the first creature who ever existed within this group.
So then you MUST also agree that “FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION” means Jesus was the first creature who ever existed within this group.
There are no two ways about it. You seem to have hemmed yourself in, Marty. I beg you to just accept what your own words have concluded instead of trying to make the scriptures out to be lies just to fulfill your OWN wishes.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2011,11:15) Bump for Marty……………and also for Kerwin. Quote (942767 @ Aug. 04 2011,09:59) Quote And since Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of this “new creation of God”, do those words mean that Jesus was the FIRST CREATURE EVER to be a part of this “new creation of God”? YES or NO? Yes
Love in Christ,
Marty
Okay Marty,Now we're getting somewhere. You've agreed that “FIRSTBORN OF THE NEW CREATION” would mean Jesus was the first creature who ever existed within this group.
So then you MUST also agree that “FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION” means Jesus was the first creature who ever existed within this group.
There are no two ways about it. You seem to have hemmed yourself in, Marty. I beg you to just accept what your own words have concluded instead of trying to make the scriptures out to be lies just to fulfill your OWN wishes.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike:When did he become the first creature in this group?
Love in Christ,
MartyPrior to the creation of the second born of all creation, Marty. So, when was the second born (most likely one of God's angels) created? Whenever that was, Jesus was created BEFORE that one.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2011,11:01) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 10 2011,11:31) Mike! It is senseless to even try to convince those who just have their minds made up to what they want to believe some Scriptures teach them….No matter what Scripture you or Pierre or I put in front of them… How can you even say when Jesus said He came down from Heaven, it is something else…. Or He is the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of Gods creation, they are blind to it….You said before a child can understand it, yet they do not…. I guess that should teach is something too….
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,What irks me the most is the utterly ridiculous “understandings” they must come up with to avoid just accepting the scriptures as they are written.
Like saying John 17:5 is talking about the glory Jesus had as a thought in God's head!
WHY? Why in the world would someone go as far as adding their own words into the scriptures, like Gene does, or pretending the scripture means something as assinine as what I've just listed?I just don't get it. If Jesus says glorify me now with the glory I had before the creation of the world, then why can't they just ACCEPT that Jesus himself had glory before the creation of the world?
Why would they even have to start mixing and jumbling things in an effort to make it say anything other than what it clearly says?
This comes from men who want the scriptures to teach what they already believe to be the truth. This kind of behavior only comes from those who form the scriptures around their own understanding……………never from people who form their understanding around the scriptures.
peace and love,
mike
Mike! I know what you mean, but is there anything we can do about that….? No…. they simple are blind to the truth….I know they don't want to hear that, but it is true…..
Peace and Love IrenePierre,
Quote Romans 1:17 King James Version (KJV)
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 1:17 explicitly declares the righteous live by faith and Jesus is righteous so he too lives by faith and so is the pioneer of our faith.
Abraham was credited with righteousness because he believed what God told him and not only because he believes in God. Jesus also believes what God says and so is a man of faith.
I am certain you believe Jesus is righteous and that he believes what God states and so you also believe that Jesus is the pioneer that is our example in living righteously by faith in what God says.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2011,23:17) Pierre, Quote Romans 1:17 King James Version (KJV)
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 1:17 explicitly declares the righteous live by faith and Jesus is righteous so he too lives by faith and so is the pioneer of our faith.
Abraham was credited with righteousness because he believed what God told him and not only because he believes in God. Jesus also believes what God says and so is a man of faith.
I am certain you believe Jesus is righteous and that he believes what God states and so you also believe that Jesus is the pioneer that is our example in living righteously by faith in what God says.
KerwinChrist is not our pioneer,in the faith,
you said yourself that Abraham ad faith ,Job,David,and many others ,
also many have been decared righteous in the past ,like Daniel,Job,Abraham,Jacob,Isaak, and others,
Christ is our way to return to God ,this is why we have to accept the way God gives his grace to us,
Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.see from faith to faith this means from one person believing to the ears of another,and so on the fruits of our faith
Pierre
Mike.
Quote What then do you make of the fact that Jesus is not only the Branch of David, but also the Root of David? You seem to be a bit confused in mixing up two different references in scripture as I do not know of any one passage that states Jesus is the root and branch of David. I will thus address the three scriptures that you may be mixing up.
The first one is:
Quote Isaiah 11:1-4
King James Version (KJV)1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.This is an inferred teaching as David is not explicitly mentioned in it and one first has to believe that David is the rod that comes forth from the stem of Jesse. From that point one has to conclude that the pronoun “his” in the second fragment represents David and not Jesse. If you do that then the scripture certainly seems to be speaking of a family tree with the descendants of David being the branches and Jesus being the primary branch. Other scriptures support that understanding so is truth though perhaps not correct interpretation.
The two scripture that address the reference of Jesus being the root of David are:
Quote Revelation 5:5
King James Version (KJV)5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
And
Quote Revelation 22:16
King James Version (KJV)16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Neither one of these scriptures has context inferring what the title “root” means. As this is the case, it is necessary to find out what other scriptures speak of that would make Jesus the “root” of David. We know from scripture that God promised David that he would have an offspring to sit on his throne and that David like Abraham believed him and as such his faith was rooted in Jesus his Offspring.
In conclusion it is true that Jesus is the root of David’s faith and the branch of his body.
Quote And in your mind, did Abraham also come before Jesus, even though Jesus clearly said that “before Abraham even existed, I have been”? Quote Genesis 17:18
King James Version (KJV)18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
In Genesis 17:18 is Abraham asking that Ismael live before God lives? Certainly not!
So you should be aware that context is necessary to correctly understand John 8:58. So skipping the words of the Jews in verse 57, as they did not understand the spiritual words of Jesus in verse 56, we shall look for the topic Jesus is teaching in his words and not theirs.
We know Jesus teaches:
Quote John 8
King James Version (KJV)56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
How does scripture state that Abraham saw Jesus day?
Quote Romans 4:18
King James Version (KJV)18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Romans 4:18 states he saw it by faith for Jesus is The Seed by which Abraham is the father of many nations.
In conclusion Jesus is before Abraham because Abraham believes in him.
Mike,
Quote So then all of us believers are exactly the same as Jesus? Your question is answered with this verse from Ephesians.
Quote Ephesians 4
King James Version (KJV)7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Quote I wonder why only Jesus is God's ONLY begotten Son then. God chose him to give the grace of inheriting that name.
Quote Isaiah 11 King James Version (KJV)
2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: …
Assuming that you mean the following words from scripture in the context of the others
Quote No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Scripture also states:
Quote Ephesians 4:8
New International Version (NIV)8 This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”: And so that we know that when he ascended he also took many captives with him.
Scripture also teaches us:
Quote James 1:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
: And so we know that those that believe come from above as they are good things begotten of the Word.
Quote 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” I wonder why Jesus mistakenly says “the ONE he has sent” when he really means “the ONES he has sent”.
He said that because only he was given the grace to be called the Son of God; by whom every believer comes from above and ascends with him as a captive.
Quote 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. Can ALL OF THE BELIEVERS say the above, Kerwin?
Those that are children of God through the spirit can all state that because they are all good things and so come from above and their whole purpose in life is to deny themselves and follow Jesus the pioneer and finisher of their faith.
Quote I can do this all day long. It seems to be your contention that Jesus was no different than anyone else who believes and has the Spirit of God upon them Belief comes from hearing the word and so those that hear his voice calling will receive and live by the Spirit of God. As for those who do not hear him, God will judge them and he is just.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2011,06:15) Bump for Marty……………and also for Kerwin. Quote (942767 @ Aug. 04 2011,09:59) Quote And since Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of this “new creation of God”, do those words mean that Jesus was the FIRST CREATURE EVER to be a part of this “new creation of God”? YES or NO? Yes
Love in Christ,
Marty
Okay Marty,Now we're getting somewhere. You've agreed that “FIRSTBORN OF THE NEW CREATION” would mean Jesus was the first creature who ever existed within this group.
So then you MUST also agree that “FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION” means Jesus was the first creature who ever existed within this group.
There are no two ways about it. You seem to have hemmed yourself in, Marty. I beg you to just accept what your own words have concluded instead of trying to make the scriptures out to be lies just to fulfill your OWN wishes.
peace,
mike
Mike,Quote James 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Does this mean that those that believe are the some of the first of their kind of the old creation?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2011,13:24) Prior to the creation of the second born of all creation, Marty. So, when was the second born (most likely one of God's angels) created? Whenever that was, Jesus was created BEFORE that one. mike
Hi Mike:What! I don't even know where to begin to answer your response, and so, I won't.
Jesus is the “firstborn of all of creation”. That is what the scriptures state. He is not the “first creature created by God”. There is no scripture which states that he is, and so, that is the end of this discussion.
I have already showed you this, and really, I have nothing more to add to what I have already stated.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty……..YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, no scripture say Jesus was the first ever created being or any thing like that dealing with the past creation of God on this earth In fact God said He created every thing “ALONE” and BY HIMSELF> You would think they would eventually come to understand GOD was Not dealing what any Past existent Person But HUMANITY was what he was concerned with and used a MAN to bring about His perfecting Work in humanity. This “SEPARATION” of Jesus from our “EXACT IDENTITY” as a PURELY HUMAN BEING has to be one of the greatest SINS in Religion Today. Trinitarians as well as Preexistences are all guilty of this IDOLATROUS SIN> They have turned JESUS into “the MAN of SIN”, by the GREATEST LIE ever infused into Christianity by the fathers of their LIE, the Gnostic's, who also preached Jesus Preexistence as a being and was sent from the Pelora of the GODS. But thanks be to GOD the He has let some a few who are true seekers of truth see the LIE and reject it, again i say thanks be to GOD our Father who loves us and has delivered us from this form of corruption. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Marty…………………gene
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 12 2011,02:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2011,13:24) Prior to the creation of the second born of all creation, Marty. So, when was the second born (most likely one of God's angels) created? Whenever that was, Jesus was created BEFORE that one. mike
Hi Mike:What! I don't even know where to begin to answer your response, and so, I won't.
Jesus is the “firstborn of all of creation”. That is what the scriptures state. He is not the “first creature created by God”. There is no scripture which states that he is, and so, that is the end of this discussion.
I have already showed you this, and really, I have nothing more to add to what I have already stated.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty!
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;Jesus is the beginning of God's creation and not only the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
And then God created al by Jesus…
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And if you doubt the The Word of God is Jesus, look at this Scripture in
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Marty is there any other being that fits this description?
I don't believe so…
Peace and Love IreneHi Irene:
The following scripture:
Quote Revelation 3:14″And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: `These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: Is explained by the following scripture:
Quote Colossians 1:18And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have the preeminence. He is not the “first creature created by God”. He is the “Last Adam”. God began in Genesis saying that he was making man in “his own image”. The first Adam was made a living soul. He was like God in that he had a mind, a will, and emotions, a living person. The last Adam is like God in this respect but through obedience to God's Word his character is like God in that God is a “spirit of love”. The scripture states that Jesus is “the express image of God's person”.
The last Adam is what God envisioned when he created the worlds. He is the culminnation of God's plan for humanity. He is the first of God's creatures to be perfected and raised from the dead with a spiritual body. In this, he is the beginning of the creation of God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 14 2011,01:36) Hi Irene: The following scripture:
Quote Revelation 3:14″And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: `These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: Is explained by the following scripture:
Quote Colossians 1:18And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have the preeminence. He is not the “first creature created by God”. He is the “Last Adam”. God began in Genesis saying that he was making man in “his own image”. The first Adam was made a living soul. He was like God in that he had a mind, a will, and emotions, a living person. The last Adam is like God in this respect but through obedience to God's Word his character is like God in that God is a “spirit of love”. The scripture states that Jesus is “the express image of God's person”.
The last Adam is what God envisioned when he created the worlds. He is the culminnation of God's plan for humanity. He is the first of God's creatures to be perfected and raised from the dead with a spiritual body. In this, he is the beginning of the creation of God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! You are nit picking. Even so Col. 1:18 does say that Jesus iis the beginning of the Church, but not Col 15 and Rev. 3:14 and you forgetting all together Col 1:16 and John 1:3 it says that God through Jesus created all…. If that is the case then Jesus had to be there before He created all, and He was according to the Scriptures I gave you..
Peace and Love IreneQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2011,00:33)
Neither one of these scriptures has context inferring what the title “root” means.
Okay Kerwin. If you must go as far as pretending that you don't know what “root” means, I have gone as far as I can go with you.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2011,00:33)
In conclusion Jesus is before Abraham because Abraham believes in him.
The words are: Before Abraham was born, I have existed.If you can get “because Abraham believes in him” out of that, then your imagination is teaching you much more about the scriptures than the scriptures are.
I don't have time to chase your unscriptural imagination all over the place. I'm sorry.
peace,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2011,05:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2011,06:15) Bump for Marty……………and also for Kerwin. Quote (942767 @ Aug. 04 2011,09:59) Quote And since Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of this “new creation of God”, do those words mean that Jesus was the FIRST CREATURE EVER to be a part of this “new creation of God”? YES or NO? Yes
Love in Christ,
Marty
Okay Marty,Now we're getting somewhere. You've agreed that “FIRSTBORN OF THE NEW CREATION” would mean Jesus was the first creature who ever existed within this group.
So then you MUST also agree that “FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION” means Jesus was the first creature who ever existed within this group.
There are no two ways about it. You seem to have hemmed yourself in, Marty. I beg you to just accept what your own words have concluded instead of trying to make the scriptures out to be lies just to fulfill your OWN wishes.
peace,
mike
Mike,Quote James 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Does this mean that those that believe are the some of the first of their kind of the old creation?
Kerwin,Just address my point DIRECTLY. If you and Marty agree that “firstborn” actually means “the one born first of the NEW creation”, then why can't you believe that “firstborn of ALL CREATION” means “the one born first out of ALL CREATION”?
Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 13 2011,08:47) Marty! You are nit picking.
He's also back-peddling, Irene.He already said that “firstborn of all creation” means that Jesus is the one born first of the “NEW creation”.
He has shown that he UNDERSTANDS the word “firstborn” as meaning “the one born first” of whatever particular group is mentioned.
Kerwin has also admitted this.
So now we've come to the crux of the issue, which is that because they KNOW firstborn means exactly what it says, they must now IMAGINE that Col 1:15 says Jesus is the firstborn of the NEW creation.
See Irene? If we are allowed to swap the scriptural words “ALL CREATION” for “NEW CREATION”, we would all be in agreement.
But the words “pasa ktisis” refer to “ALL creation” or “EVERY creature”, not “NEW creation” or “NEW creatures”.
They are stuck now, because they've already admitted “firstborn” refers to Jesus being the ONE BORN FIRST. And now the only thing they have left is to argue that “ALL creation” really means “NEW creation”, when it clearly DOESN'T.
The thought in Col 1 is that Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of God's creation, and he has to be, because all other things were created through him – the things in heaven and the things on earth.
Those other things couldn't have possibly been created through Jesus unless he was created FIRST. Therefore:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, BECAUSE through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.
I've grown weary of their willingness to overlook the obvious in their attempts to redeem their flawed, unscriptural doctrine.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Pastry @ Aug. 14 2011,01:47) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 14 2011,01:36) Hi Irene: The following scripture:
Quote Revelation 3:14″And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: `These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: Is explained by the following scripture:
Quote Colossians 1:18And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have the preeminence. He is not the “first creature created by God”. He is the “Last Adam”. God began in Genesis saying that he was making man in “his own image”. The first Adam was made a living soul. He was like God in that he had a mind, a will, and emotions, a living person. The last Adam is like God in this respect but through obedience to God's Word his character is like God in that God is a “spirit of love”. The scripture states that Jesus is “the express image of God's person”.
The last Adam is what God envisioned when he created the worlds. He is the culminnation of God's plan for humanity. He is the first of God's creatures to be perfected and raised from the dead with a spiritual body. In this, he is the beginning of the creation of God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! You are nit picking. Even so Col. 1:18 does say that Jesus iis the beginning of the Church, but not Col 15 and Rev. 3:14 and you forgetting all together Col 1:16 and John 1:3 it says that God through Jesus created all…. If that is the case then Jesus had to be there before He created all, and He was according to the Scriptures I gave you..
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene:Jesus was God in the beginning in that God knew that at a specific point in time He would conceived His Son through whom he would reconcile the world unto Himself.
In is through Jesus, the last Adam, that God had forseen the culmination and fulfillment of his plan for this world and for humanity and the world to come.
I have done my best to show you this through the scriptures.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Mike:
You say:
Quote I've grown weary of their willingness to overlook the obvious in their attempts to redeem their flawed, unscriptural doctrine. This is what I believe relative to you and Irene.
When you are shown the truth by the scriptures, you just want to continue on with your unscriptual doctrine. There is no scripture which states that Jesus is the “first creature created by God”. Jesus is the “first” of God's creatures to be born of God, and he is the “firstborn again from the dead”, and in this he is the first of the new creation, the last Adam, who now has eternal life in his spiritual body.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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