- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 2 months ago by
.
- Posts
To All…………Preexistences have a Preconceived mind about Jesus preexistence so they simply force the text to conform to their “ PRECONCEIVED BELIEF SYSTEMS Even if it means ignoring all the other scriptures that clearly show them wrong> IMO
peace and love to you all……………………………………..gene
Mike,
Quote And the Pharisees also thought the same as you and Gene and Marty do. They also thought that the Messiah would ONLY be FROM Abraham and David. Scripture declares that Jesus is the son Abraham, David, and Mary. There is nowhere in Scripture that it states that Jesus is both the child of God’s body (as if he had one) and of David’s body. Scripture also declares Jesus is the Son of God’s spirit.
All of God’s children are of his Spirit and not of his body (as if he had one) as God created the heavens and the earth and all within but he clearly did not create himself.
Quote See Kerwin? Jesus was trying his best to teach them, AND US, the truth of the matter. They were unable to get his drift…………….and so, it seems, are you guys. You claim to understand and yet you do not seem to know what Jesus was Scripture is teaching when Jesus petitions God that those that believe in him be one even as Jesus and God are one, the believers in both Jesus and God and both Jesus and God in them. If you do understand then you know that Jesus was praying that those that believe in him would become sons of God even as he was and is the Son of God.
May you come come to know God's peace as well.
Kerwin………..Right on brother, they are the blind leading the blind and they are all in a ditch and don't even know it. Twisting , and forcing the text to meet they dogmas and false teachings. IMO
peace and love ………………………………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 06 2011,14:36)
Scripture declares that Jesus is the son Abraham, David, and Mary.
Kerwin, did you even read the scriptures I listed? What exactly do you think Jesus was trying to tell the Pharisees? (I'll give you a hint: It was the SAME EXACT THING we've been trying to tell you…………..that he was not only the BRANCH of David, but ALSO THE ROOT.)Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 06 2011,14:36)
You claim to understand and yet you do not seem to know what Jesus was Scripture is teaching…………….
These are the words of a man who can't actually address the problems with his theory. Why not stand and defend yourself, Kerwin? Why must you always go farther away from the point we are discussing in an effort to confuse things with talk of “spirit this” and “oneness that”, etc?Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 06 2011,14:36)
If you do understand then you know that Jesus was praying that those that believe in him would become sons of God even as he was and is the Son of God.
That's right Kerwin. Jesus wasn't praying for them to be regular old human sons of God like we already are. He was praying for them to be “real” sons of God as he was and is the Son of God.See Kerwin? Scripture never says that Jesus was all the way down to OUR level. Scripture says that some of us have a chance to be moved UP to HIS level. Even as a man, Jesus was the only one who ever existed that had God as a LITERAL Father.
Please address Col 1:13 from my previous post.
mike
Mike.
Quote Kerwin, did you even read the scriptures I listed? What exactly do you think Jesus was trying to tell the Pharisees? (I'll give you a hint: It was the SAME EXACT THING we've been trying to tell you…………..that he was not only the BRANCH of David, but ALSO THE ROOT.)
The scripture Jesus quoted demonstrates that the Anointed one has a greater position than David. David sat on the throne of David. Therefore the Anointed one sits on the throne of David and a throne higher than David’s that God prepared for him beforehand.Quote Luke 1:32
King James Version (KJV)
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:Quote Revelation 3:21
King James Version (KJV)21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
It is the throne of the Son that is the greater position but our disagreement is not over that but is instead about what it means to be the Son of God, I understand that the human being Jesus became the Son of God when he inherited the Spirit of God and you understand Jesus to be the son of God’s body. This difference in understanding also is directly echoed in our difference of understanding about the preexistence of Jesus.
Quote These are the words of a man who can't actually address the problems with his theory. Why not stand and defend yourself, Kerwin? Why must you always go farther away from the point we are discussing in an effort to confuse things with talk of “spirit this” and “oneness that”, etc? I believe you do not comprehend what I am writing to you. That would not be a surprise given my poor use of the English language though I believe I make myself clearer later in the paragraph. Those that believe are sons of God because God dwells in them by the spirit of God through Jesus the Anointed. Jesus is the Son because he is the only one who God dwells in through his Spirit without an intermediary.
Quote See Kerwin? Scripture never says that Jesus was all the way down to OUR level. Scripture says that some of us have a chance to be moved UP to HIS level. Even as a man, Jesus was the only one who ever existed that had God as a LITERAL Father. No one has God as the literal sire of their body. The literal parent of Jesus’ body is Mary a direct descendant of David, which is why Romans 1:3 states:
Quote Romans 1
King James Version (KJV)3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Hebrews 2: calls Jesus a human by quoting Psalms 8:4-6 that speaks of mankind in general. Wisdom does that in speaking of a time when his authority was the equivalent to that of mankind in relation to the angels. So at one time the authority of Jesus was equivalent to the rest of mankind and so lower than the authority of angels..
Quote Psalm 8:4-6
King James Version (KJV)4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:Still, Jesus united with the Spirit is the Son of God in whom God lives and through his intercession those that believe also become sons of God’s spirit by faith in him.
As to Colossians 1:13 I have already answered your two question previously.
Quote WHO did the rescuing? I inferred the answer to your question in this post by speaking of God as part of the broader unity of the Spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,22:36)
Mike,That was an error that I did not catch. Sorry to confuse you like that. I did not mean to insert the comment “w directly unified with God through the Spirit of God”at that point.
God is part of the unity but each part its own role just like each part of the body does.
God the Father of all elements in the union is in all and all are in him.
In what way are those that believe in the Son in God?
In what way is God in those that believe in the Son?
Quote And who is the Son that He loves? Here is my earlier answer but it is worded poorly as the unity includes both the element of Jesus and the element of the Spirit of Righteousness and I put the later in the definition.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,11:09) Mike, The Son = The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God.
A better way of wording it is The Son is the union of Jesus the human being and the Spirit of God by which the One God and Father is above the union, through the union, and in the union.
I used Ephesians 4:1-7 to keep the description in accordance with scripture.
You have previously agreed both that believers are in the Son and that God is in those that believe, through the Spirit of God. The same is similarly true of Jesus the human being. It is that which makes him an element of the unity with the Spirit. That unity in the unity of the Spirit is the Son of God.
Kerwin! Our Monitor was broke so I have not been able to respond to your last post to me. But Mike did. Scriptures show us that He existed as the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I also want to show you that explains who The Word of God is…
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
We also know that The Word of God is the only begotten of the Father…. there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that this is speaking of who became Jesus. He is the only begotten Son of God…..
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And then God created all through Jesus….
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Just so you don't have any reason to believe otherwise about the creation of Gosd, Jesus also is the firstborn of the death in
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
And after Jesus did become a man, He went back to Heaven and is seated at the right hand of His Father. That is so important that you understand the flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, where Jehovah God dwells right now in Heaven….
1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinth. 15 is considered the resurrection Chapter…. just to understand the whole of the resurrection of Jesus and us…..in the future….or us…
Now I have put all these Scriptures up for you before and I will do it again until you understand them. I find you have a good heart and that is why I am doing this….
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,07:41) I inferred the answer to your question in this post by speaking of God as part of the broader unity of the Spirit.
I'm sorry Kerwin; this is nothing but gibberish to me. I feel like I'm talking to Kathi about her “compound unity”.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,07:41) The Son is the union of Jesus the human being and the Spirit of God by which the One God and Father is above the union, through the union, and in the union.
So the Spirit of God is the Son of God………or at least part of the Son of God? And God Himself is also a part of the “Son of God” because He is also a part of the union?
That's not confusing in the least!
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,07:41) Mike. Quote Kerwin, did you even read the scriptures I listed? What exactly do you think Jesus was trying to tell the Pharisees? (I'll give you a hint: It was the SAME EXACT THING we've been trying to tell you…………..that he was not only the BRANCH of David, but ALSO THE ROOT.)
The scripture Jesus quoted demonstrates that the Anointed one has a greater position than David.
So why did Jesus give this explanation after asking them whose SON the Messiah is? You have missed a big part of the teaching, Kerwin.42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
I'm sure you realize that by “son”, they speak of “descendent”, right? And Jesus is asking how David could call someone who would be his DESCENDENT “My Lord”, for that is not the way it worked. The FATHERS and PATRIARCHS were called “my Lord” by their descendents…………never the other way around.
Abraham would have never called any of his descendents “my Lord”. Do you understand this?
I hope so, because that is what Jesus is teaching the Pharisees here. And it is for this reason that they could not answer him. Because they KNEW that if the Messiah was truly nothing other than a literal descendent of David, David would have never called him “my Lord”. That is the whole meaning of Jesus saying, “If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”
The Pharisees knew they could not answer to this excellent teaching that the Messiah had to have been BEFORE David for David to call him “my Lord”. They knew it and remained silent. What about you, Kerwin? Can you refute what I've just explained…………..or will you accept it and remain silent?
peace,
mikeMike,
Quote I'm sorry Kerwin; this is nothing but gibberish to me. I feel like I'm talking to Kathi about her “compound unity”. If you mean a unity that is composed of interrelated parts then that describes the unity of the Spirit as put forth in Ephesians 4:3-7 which is composed of one God, One Lord, One Spirit, and one body. The Spirit of God is what connects them all together which is why it is called the unity of the spirit.
Quote Ephesians 4
King James Version (KJV)3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.Jesus describes the unity without explicitly mentioning the spirit in John 17:21-23 when he asks that those that believe be in both him and the father and that both he in the father will be in them. He phrased the same thing by asking they be united as he and God are united. The subset I address as the Son of God is the unity of Jesus and God through the Spirit of God as that is the primary unit of the Unity of the Spirit.
Quote John 17
King James Version (KJV)21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.Another subset of the unity of the Spirit to be addressed is the unity of the Son of God subset with a believer and the believer with the Son of God. This subset is spoken of in Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6 and unity is what make those that believer sons of God.
Quote Romans 8:15
King James Version (KJV)15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Quote Galatians 4:6
King James Version (KJV)6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
A believer is not a son of God if he is not united with the Son of God by the Spirit of God and in a like manner Jesus is the Son of God because he is united with God through the Spirit of God and intercedes for those that believe.
Quote So the Spirit of God is the Son of God………or at least part of the Son of God? And God Himself is also a part of the “Son of God” because He is also a part of the union? That's not confusing in the least!
It may be confusing to some but Jesus does state that the Father is in him and he is in the Father and we know God is in those that believe through the Spirit.
Quote So why did Jesus give this explanation after asking them whose SON the Messiah is? You have missed a big part of the teaching, Kerwin. I chose to avoid any speculations by using scripture which is why I quoted the Scriptures that spoke of the throne of David as well as the one that spoke of the throne of the Son. Jesus was obviously not denying that he was a son of David’s body as that would contradict scripture. He was therefore claiming to be the Son of God’s spirit, who inherited a name that was superior to every other name.
Kerwin………..You have it right, they just can't seem to understand that God was truly (IN) Jesus. Jesus' Lordship was given him before he ever existed and He knew that, but the Pharisees did not realize it, but King David did, that is why David said ” THE LORD SAID UNTO MY LORD SIT ON MY RIGHT (UNTIL) (I) MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL”. They fail to use the complete sentence that shows that POWER of GOD with JESUS giving him his lordship before Jesus or David was ever Born. Notice how they always leave off the last Part of that quote they use. They fact is, the issue was the authority Jesus had and not the time of his berth , notice Jesus never denied David as His Father in any off that, but was referencing the preexistence authority afforded him before he was ever born.
The question Jesus ask the Pharisees was (HOW) Could he be his Son, Not WAS HE David's Son. Another word in which WAY was he Davids son given David called Him Lord., Jesus' preexisted Authority was before David or as far a that goes even before Abraham ever existed , this authority was in the plan and will of GOD from the beginning of Creation, but in none of that is there a preexistent sentinel “BEING”, being discussed as actually existing prior to his berth on earth. In fact that (BEING) (Jesus) did not even exist until he came into being through the linage of King David Just as Jesus said He did. But non of that does away with the fact he was Prophesied to come into being as a Son of David and would become a Son of GOD also by the Holy Spirit given him at the Jordan River. Jesus was trying to show the Pharisees his authority afforded him by GOD before King David , he was not defocussing his berth into existence on the earth.IMO
peace and love …………………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,05:23) I chose to avoid any speculations
Okay then. Don't speculate. Just answer the question from Jesus that the Pharisees couldn't:Kerwin, if then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?
I can answer the question, Kerwin. Can you?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,05:23) If you mean a unity that is composed of interrelated parts then that describes the unity of the Spirit as put forth in Ephesians 4:3-7 which is composed of one God, One Lord, One Spirit, and one body. The Spirit of God is what connects them all together which is why it is called the unity of the spirit.
And the Son of God was “the unity of God, His Spirit and the flesh body of a man named Jesus”? Is that it?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2011,07:58) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,05:23) I chose to avoid any speculations
Okay then. Don't speculate. Just answer the question from Jesus that the Pharisees couldn't:Kerwin, if then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?
I can answer the question, Kerwin. Can you?
Mike,I already answered the question by telling you that Jesus is the son of David's body and the Son of God's spirit that inherited the name that is above all other names.
Romans 1:3-4 teaches just that lesson for those that have ears to hear.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2011,08:04) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,05:23) If you mean a unity that is composed of interrelated parts then that describes the unity of the Spirit as put forth in Ephesians 4:3-7 which is composed of one God, One Lord, One Spirit, and one body. The Spirit of God is what connects them all together which is why it is called the unity of the spirit.
And the Son of God was “the unity of God, His Spirit and the flesh body of a man named Jesus”? Is that it?
Mike,That is why Jesus taught:
Quote John 10 King James Version (KJV)
6Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
I am confident you realize that God lives in those that believe through the Spirit and so you know that is also how God lives in Jesus who has a perfect faith.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2011,18:26) Kerwin………..You have it right, they just can't seem to understand that God was truly (IN) Jesus. Jesus' Lordship was given him before he ever existed and He knew that, but the Pharisees did not realize it, but King David did, that is why David said ” THE LORD SAID UNTO MY LORD SIT ON MY RIGHT (UNTIL) (I) MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL”. They fail to use the complete sentence that shows that POWER of GOD with JESUS giving him his lordship before Jesus or David was ever Born. Notice how they always leave off the last Part of that quote they use. They fact is, the issue was the authority Jesus had and not the time of his berth , notice Jesus never denied David as His Father in any off that, but was referencing the preexistence authority afforded him before he was ever born. The question Jesus ask the Pharisees was (HOW) Could he be his Son, Not WAS HE David's Son. Another word in which WAY was he Davids son given David called Him Lord., Jesus' preexisted Authority was before David or as far a that goes even before Abraham ever existed , this authority was in the plan and will of GOD from the beginning of Creation, but in none of that is there a preexistent sentinel “BEING”, being discussed as actually existing prior to his berth on earth. In fact that (BEING) (Jesus) did not even exist until he came into being through the linage of King David Just as Jesus said He did. But non of that does away with the fact he was Prophesied to come into being as a Son of David and would become a Son of GOD also by the Holy Spirit given him at the Jordan River. Jesus was trying to show the Pharisees his authority afforded him by GOD before King David , he was not defocussing his berth into existence on the earth.IMO
peace and love …………………………………….gene
Gene,I missed that “How” myself. God chose to reveal that one to you and not me.
I disagree with you about Jesus being united with the Spirit of God at the Jordon because I believe he lived according to it prior to that time and so had to have been united with it previously in order to do so, Galatians 5:16.
On the other hand I do believe he was made a High Priest in the order of Melchisedec at that time, Hebrews 5:5-6.
Mike! It is senseless to even try to convince those who just have their minds made up to what they want to believe some Scriptures teach them….No matter what Scripture you or Pierre or I put in front of them… How can you even say when Jesus said He came down from Heaven, it is something else…. Or He is the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of Gods creation, they are blind to it….You said before a child can understand it, yet they do not…. I guess that should teach is something too….
Peace and Love IreneKerwin
Quote I am confident you realize that God lives in those that believe through the Spirit and so you know that is also how God lives in Jesus who has a perfect faith. it seems you do not understand Christ is not a believer like us HE KNOW HIS FATHER SO IT IS NOT BY FAITH THAT CHRIST WALKED,
his work is to come to us and make his father known to us,
and we all are believers if in deed we obey his commandments and observe them as Jesus showed us when he was with his apostles ,and so produce that same spirit towards God that was in Christ and his disciples,AND THEN WE CAN SAY THAT GODS SPIRIT LIVES IN US.the scriptures are the truth and the word of God given to men,for our knowledge to acquire the grace that God trough Christ is providing to us all,
and that so few can not grasp.so if you do not believe what scriptures are saying how then can you possess the truth and so understand the spirit of Christ ?
YOU HAVE BECOME YOUR OWN ENEMY,because you have not believed ;Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,……………Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory(truth) that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:39) Mike, I already answered the question by telling you that Jesus is the son of David's body and the Son of God's spirit that inherited the name that is above all other names.
Okay Kerwin,What then do you make of the fact that Jesus is not only the Branch of David, but also the Root of David? Because this all ties in together.
And in your mind, did Abraham also come before Jesus, even though Jesus clearly said that “before Abraham even existed, I have been”?
This also ties in.
You can't twist and fight them all, Kerwin.
peace,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:47) I am confident you realize that God lives in those that believe through the Spirit and so you know that is also how God lives in Jesus who has a perfect faith.
So then all of us believers are exactly the same as Jesus? I wonder why only Jesus is God's ONLY begotten Son then.No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Can ALL OF THE BELIEVERS say the above, Kerwin?
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
I wonder why Jesus mistakenly says “the ONE he has sent” when he really means “the ONES he has sent”.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
Can ALL OF THE BELIEVERS say the above, Kerwin?
I can do this all day long. It seems to be your contention that Jesus was no different than anyone else who believes and has the Spirit of God upon them. Well………………..IS THIS what you believe, Kerwin? Because if it is, we can nip this falsehood in the bud pretty quickly with a few choice scriptures.
mike
Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 10 2011,11:31) Mike! It is senseless to even try to convince those who just have their minds made up to what they want to believe some Scriptures teach them….No matter what Scripture you or Pierre or I put in front of them… How can you even say when Jesus said He came down from Heaven, it is something else…. Or He is the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of Gods creation, they are blind to it….You said before a child can understand it, yet they do not…. I guess that should teach is something too….
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,What irks me the most is the utterly ridiculous “understandings” they must come up with to avoid just accepting the scriptures as they are written.
Like saying John 17:5 is talking about the glory Jesus had as a thought in God's head!
WHY? Why in the world would someone go as far as adding their own words into the scriptures, like Gene does, or pretending the scripture means something as assinine as what I've just listed?I just don't get it. If Jesus says glorify me now with the glory I had before the creation of the world, then why can't they just ACCEPT that Jesus himself had glory before the creation of the world?
Why would they even have to start mixing and jumbling things in an effort to make it say anything other than what it clearly says?
This comes from men who want the scriptures to teach what they already believe to be the truth. This kind of behavior only comes from those who form the scriptures around their own understanding……………never from people who form their understanding around the scriptures.
peace and love,
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
