Preexistence

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,13:47)

Quote (942767 @ July 26 2011,19:37) Proverbs: 8 is speaking of Wisdom, but may refer indirectly to Jesus since God made every thing by him and for him, but it says nothing about Jesus being the first creature that God created.  This is the way it reads: Quote Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. One thing at a time, Marty: Proverbs 8:22 NIV © “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;   NLT © “The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. MSG © “GOD sovereignly made me–the first, the basic–before he did anything else. BBE © The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past. NRSV © The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. NET © The Lord created 1  me as the beginning 2  of his works, 3  before his deeds of long ago. Look at the footnote #1 from the NET translation: Pro 8:221tn There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish” (R. N. Whybray, “Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,” VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, “Where Will Wisdom Be Found?” JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42). Quote a newer translation next time, Marty.  Many strides towards Hebrew and Greek understanding have been made in the 400 years since the KJV was translated.   mike

Hi Mike:

And so, all I have to say about this, is that I see where all of the confusion comes from.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Pierre:

You say:

Quote

the WORD is Christ and always was the son of God because he is the one for all thing were created

It is true that God created all things knowing that a point in time He would bring forth His Only Begotten Son and His Christ through whom He would reconcile humanity to Himself. And it is true that Jesus is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him.

And so, Jesus was the Son of God in the heart of the Father from before the foundation of the world, but he did begin to exist as a sentient person until he was born into this world from the womb of the virgin Mary as the Only Begotten Son of God.

And so, I stand by what I stated that in John 1 the Word or Logos is that which “God has spoken” pertaining to Jesus who became a reality when he was born into this world, and thus, the scriptures state and the Word, “that which God as spoken pertaining to Jesus” became flesh or a reality:

Quote

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is the Logos of God which became flesh:

Quote

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,02:12)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,13:47) Quote (942767 @ July 26 2011,19:37) Proverbs: 8 is speaking of Wisdom, but may refer indirectly to Jesus since God made every thing by him and for him, but it says nothing about Jesus being the first creature that God created.  This is the way it reads: Quote Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. One thing at a time, Marty: Proverbs 8:22 NIV © “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;   NLT © “The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. MSG © “GOD sovereignly made me–the first, the basic–before he did anything else. BBE © The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past. NRSV © The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. NET © The Lord created 1  me as the beginning 2  of his works, 3  before his deeds of long ago. Look at the footnote #1 from the NET translation: Pro 8:221tn There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish” (R. N. Whybray, “Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,” VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, “Where Will Wisdom Be Found?” JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42). Quote a newer translation next time, Marty.  Many strides towards Hebrew and Greek understanding have been made in the 400 years since the KJV was translated.   mike Hi Mike: And so, all I have to say about this, is that I see where all of the confusion comes from. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

Mike errs on this point. Proverbs 8 is not about Christ but about wisdom which is personified. Wisdom is called a “she” several times in chapters 8-9 and even lives with her companion “prudence.”

If wisdom is Christ, then why the feminine pronoun? And who is Prudence for she was there too?

The case for Christ's preexistence cannot be made from the poetic books of the bible.

Jack

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,09:59)

Hi Pierre: You say: Quote the WORD is Christ and always was the son of God because he is the one for all thing were created It is true that God created all things knowing that a point in time He would bring forth His Only Begotten Son and His Christ through whom He would reconcile humanity to Himself.  And it is true that Jesus is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him. And so, Jesus was the Son of God in the heart of the Father from before the foundation of the world, but he did begin to exist as a sentient person until he was born into this world from the womb of the virgin Mary as the Only Begotten Son of God. And so, I stand by what I stated that in  John 1 the Word or Logos is that which “God has spoken” pertaining to Jesus who became a reality when he was born into this world, and thus, the scriptures state and the Word, “that which God as spoken pertaining to Jesus” became flesh or a reality: Quote Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. This is the Logos of God which became flesh: Quote Jhn 3:16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   Jhn 3:17   For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.   Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Quote

And so, Jesus was the Son of God in the heart of the Father from before the foundation of the world, but he did begin to exist as a sentient

show me that in scriptures and I would believe it ,ok??

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2011,11:42)

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,02:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,13:47) Quote (942767 @ July 26 2011,19:37) Proverbs: 8 is speaking of Wisdom, but may refer indirectly to Jesus since God made every thing by him and for him, but it says nothing about Jesus being the first creature that God created.  This is the way it reads: Quote Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. One thing at a time, Marty: Proverbs 8:22 NIV © “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;   NLT © “The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. MSG © “GOD sovereignly made me–the first, the basic–before he did anything else. BBE © The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past. NRSV © The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. NET © The Lord created 1  me as the beginning 2  of his works, 3  before his deeds of long ago. Look at the footnote #1 from the NET translation: Pro 8:221tn There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish” (R. N. Whybray, “Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,” VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, “Where Will Wisdom Be Found?” JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42). Quote a newer translation next time, Marty.  Many strides towards Hebrew and Greek understanding have been made in the 400 years since the KJV was translated.   mike Hi Mike: And so, all I have to say about this, is that I see where all of the confusion comes from. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Mike errs on this point. Proverbs 8 is not about Christ but about wisdom which is personified. Wisdom is called a “she” several times in chapters 8-9 and even lives with her companion “prudence.” If wisdom is Christ, then why the feminine pronoun? And who is Prudence for she was there too? The case for Christ's preexistence cannot be made from the poetic books of the bible. Jack

KJ

you are led by the letter not by the spirit

keep drinking and talk to you fellow beer drinker he would understand you very well

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 27 2011,12:42)

Marty, Mike errs on this point. Proverbs 8 is not about Christ but about wisdom which is personified. Wisdom is called a “she” several times in chapters 8-9 and even lives with her companion “prudence.” If wisdom is Christ, then why the feminine pronoun? And who is Prudence for she was there too? The case for Christ's preexistence cannot be made from the poetic books of the bible. Jack

Jack

You are correct if Jesus was the “wisdom” spoken of in Proverbs 8 then all “Wisdom and Knowledge” would not be found in him.  Jesus is wisdom to us because he contains all wisdom and knowledge.

My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of “WISDOM” and knowledge. Col 2:2,3

If people knew the scriptures they would know these things.

Wisdom is personified in Prov 8.

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. prov 8:22

I believe “The LORD” spoken of in this verse is Jesus who according to the NT “Possesses all Wisdom”

WJ

[942767]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2011,04:42)

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,02:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,13:47) Quote (942767 @ July 26 2011,19:37) Proverbs: 8 is speaking of Wisdom, but may refer indirectly to Jesus since God made every thing by him and for him, but it says nothing about Jesus being the first creature that God created.  This is the way it reads: Quote Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. One thing at a time, Marty: Proverbs 8:22 NIV © “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;   NLT © “The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. MSG © “GOD sovereignly made me–the first, the basic–before he did anything else. BBE © The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past. NRSV © The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. NET © The Lord created 1  me as the beginning 2  of his works, 3  before his deeds of long ago. Look at the footnote #1 from the NET translation: Pro 8:221tn There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish” (R. N. Whybray, “Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,” VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, “Where Will Wisdom Be Found?” JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42). Quote a newer translation next time, Marty.  Many strides towards Hebrew and Greek understanding have been made in the 400 years since the KJV was translated.   mike Hi Mike: And so, all I have to say about this, is that I see where all of the confusion comes from. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Mike errs on this point. Proverbs 8 is not about Christ but about wisdom which is personified. Wisdom is called a “she” several times in chapters 8-9 and even lives with her companion “prudence.” If wisdom is Christ, then why the feminine pronoun? And who is Prudence for she was there too? The case for Christ's preexistence cannot be made from the poetic books of the bible. Jack

Hi Jack:

It is true that Mike errors on this because as you say this is about Wisdom, and all wisdom comes from God.

Quote

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. Pro 8:14 Counsel [is] mine, and sound wisdom: I [am] understanding; I have strength. Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. Pro 8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, [even] all the judges of the earth.

As I said, this may refer to Jesus indirectly because God created all things by him, but nowhere, do the scriptures state that Jesus is the first creature created by God. Colossians 1:15 states that he is “the firstborn of all creation”, and Romans 8 states:

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Again, this states that “he might be the firstborn” and not the “first creature that God created”. He is the firstborn of God, and we also are now born again through him, and are being conformed to his image as we learn to apply God's Word in our daily lives.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,05:15)

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,09:59) Hi Pierre: You say: Quote the WORD is Christ and always was the son of God because he is the one for all thing were created It is true that God created all things knowing that a point in time He would bring forth His Only Begotten Son and His Christ through whom He would reconcile humanity to Himself.  And it is true that Jesus is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him. And so, Jesus was the Son of God in the heart of the Father from before the foundation of the world, but he did begin to exist as a sentient person until he was born into this world from the womb of the virgin Mary as the Only Begotten Son of God. And so, I stand by what I stated that in  John 1 the Word or Logos is that which “God has spoken” pertaining to Jesus who became a reality when he was born into this world, and thus, the scriptures state and the Word, “that which God as spoken pertaining to Jesus” became flesh or a reality: Quote Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. This is the Logos of God which became flesh: Quote Jhn 3:16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   Jhn 3:17   For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.   Love in Christ, Marty Marty Quote And so, Jesus was the Son of God in the heart of the Father from before the foundation of the world, but he did begin to exist as a sentient show me that in scriptures and I would believe it ,ok?? Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Here Jesus states that he is in the Father and the Father is in him, and you say that Jesus was always the Son of God, and so, if that is so, Jesus was in the Father from the beginning. And here, he was undoubedly speaking about being in the Father and the Father in him in the spirit.

Quote

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Do you agree with this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

Again, this states that “he might be the firstborn” and not the “first creature that God created”.  He is the firstborn of God, and we also are now born again through him, and are being conformed to his image as we learn to apply God's Word in our daily lives. Love in Christ, Marty

do you read your quotes ?

I did not know that being the firstborn can make something else than the first ,no ?if he is not the first then who is ?

and can someone be firstborn and be second born at the same time ?

1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.

Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

It is out of my understanding that people can not just see what is written they have  to ad or subtract to God s word.

Pierre

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

Quote Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Do you agree with this? Love in Christ, Marty

of cause i believe that scripture;but do you believe it that is my question?

Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
Jn 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
Jn 17:23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Jn 17:25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
Jn 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Jn 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

they have obeyed your word this is how God is in us who believe .

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,07:14)

Marty Quote Again, this states that “he might be the firstborn” and not the “first creature that God created”.  He is the firstborn of God, and we also are now born again through him, and are being conformed to his image as we learn to apply God's Word in our daily lives. Love in Christ, Marty do you read your quotes ? I did not know that being the firstborn can make something else than the first ,no ?if he is not the first then who is ? and can someone be firstborn and be second born at the same time ? 1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. It is out of my understanding that people can not just see what is written they have  to ad or subtract to God s word. Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Do you know anyone who was ever born of God before Jesus?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,14:23)

Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,07:14) Marty Quote Again, this states that “he might be the firstborn” and not the “first creature that God created”.  He is the firstborn of God, and we also are now born again through him, and are being conformed to his image as we learn to apply God's Word in our daily lives. Love in Christ, Marty do you read your quotes ? I did not know that being the firstborn can make something else than the first ,no ?if he is not the first then who is ? and can someone be firstborn and be second born at the same time ? 1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. It is out of my understanding that people can not just see what is written they have  to ad or subtract to God s word. Pierre Hi Pierre: Do you know anyone who was ever born of God before Jesus? Love in Christ, Marty

Maty

are you saying that Christ the firstborn of creation as Paul says or you are running in circles?

Pierre

[942767]

Hi Pierre:

You say:

Quote

It is out of my understanding that people can not just see what is written they have to ad or subtract to God s word.

What you are accusing me of doing is exactly what you are doing when you agree with Mike that Jesus is the first creature that God created.

Show me the scripture which states that he is the first creature that God created. The scripture states that he is the “firstborn over all creation”. And so, where does it say that he was the first creature that God created?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

frenchie said:

Quote

KJ you are led by the letter not by the spirit keep drinking and talk to you fellow beer drinker he would understand you very well Pierre

Wisdom said, “I wisdom dwell with prudence.”

Whos is Prudence frenchie?

KJ

[KangarooJack]

WJ said:

Quote

I believe “The LORD” spoken of in this verse is Jesus who according to the NT “Possesses all Wisdom”

Yes indeed!

Jack

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,14:30)

Hi Pierre: You say: Quote It is out of my understanding that people can not just see what is written they have  to ad or subtract to God s word. What you are accusing me of doing is exactly what you are doing when you agree with Mike that Jesus is the first creature that God created. Show me the scripture which states that he is the first creature that God created.  The scripture states that he is the “firstborn over all creation”.  And so, where does it say that he was the first creature that God created? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

you have a outstanding question series ,and just like this one

yes what does it mean in the way Paul see it ?

tell me ,but make it the truth and use all of his scriptures in Clossians 1,2,3,4
and also all of his letters because Paul is not a divided preacher he is saying the truth,into all of his letters.

so with scriptures one by one step bring me to your understanding,

not the way you feel i should think ,this is not what i am looking for ,but what is it in scriptures that I do not understand and that you so good can see,

thank you ahead of time

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (Pastry @ July 27 2011,17:04)

Quote (kerwin @ July 27 2011,16:06) Quote (kerwin @ July 27 2011,08:36) To all, The Spirit of God came before Jesus and without the Spirit Jesus could do nothing. It is the Spirit of God and not Jesus that is recorded as being present at the old creation. To all, If anyone disagress with my points I would liike to know why they disagree.  Thank you! Kerwin!  What do you mean by old creation?  ….Irene

Irene,

This scripture speaks of the first fruits of the new creation.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Quote

King James Version (KJV) 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The old creation is the one that is passing away.

[kerwin]

Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,21:04)

Quote (kerwin @ July 27 2011,13:36) To all, The Spirit of God came before Jesus and without the Spirit Jesus could do nothing. It is the Spirit of God and not Jesus that is recorded as being present at the old creation. Hi Kerwin: The Spirit of God is God's Spirit, and His Spirit is the life that He lives, but the concept of redeeming humanity to Himself through His Only Begotten Son was planned from the beginning, and so, Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from before the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person until he was born into this world from the womb of the Virgin Mary as God's Only Begotten Son. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

My intent was to see if others agree with me that these two observation are explicitly testified in scripture and not to reach any conclusions until later.

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ July 28 2011,11:19)

Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,21:04) Quote (kerwin @ July 27 2011,13:36) To all, The Spirit of God came before Jesus and without the Spirit Jesus could do nothing. It is the Spirit of God and not Jesus that is recorded as being present at the old creation. Hi Kerwin: The Spirit of God is God's Spirit, and His Spirit is the life that He lives, but the concept of redeeming humanity to Himself through His Only Begotten Son was planned from the beginning, and so, Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from before the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person until he was born into this world from the womb of the Virgin Mary as God's Only Begotten Son. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, My intent was to see if others agree with me that these two observation are explicitly testified in scripture and not to reach any conclusions until later.

Ok, Maybe I misunderstood the intent made by your observation, and so, by my post, I agree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,09:19)

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,14:30) Hi Pierre: You say: Quote It is out of my understanding that people can not just see what is written they have  to ad or subtract to God s word. What you are accusing me of doing is exactly what you are doing when you agree with Mike that Jesus is the first creature that God created. Show me the scripture which states that he is the first creature that God created.  The scripture states that he is the “firstborn over all creation”.  And so, where does it say that he was the first creature that God created? Love in Christ, Marty Marty you have a outstanding question series ,and just like this one yes what does it mean in the way Paul see it ? tell me ,but make it the truth and use all of his scriptures in Clossians 1,2,3,4 and also all of his letters because Paul is not a divided preacher he is saying the truth,into all of his letters. so with scriptures one by one step bring me to your understanding, not the way you feel i should think ,this is not what i am looking for ,but what is it in scriptures that I do not understand and that you so good can see, thank you ahead of time Pierre

Hi Pierre:

And so, what is it that I have said that you do not understand?

Did Paul say that Jesus was the “first creature that God created” or did he say that Jesus was the “firstborn over all of creation” or in another place “the firstborn of every creature”.?

What did he say, Pierre?

Love in Christ,
Marty

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