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Mike……… A simple test for you OK, go look up the word BECAME and see what it say. As i recall it means CAME TO BE , now with that understanding tell us Mike have you ever SEEN A PHYSICAL “FLESH” WORD EVER in you life. You might have seen letters written down on paper, or something like that , but have you ever physically seen a “PHYSICAL FLESH WORD” LET ME ANSWER THAT FOR YOU MIKE (NO) you have not ever seen a physical “flesh word”> The term “BECAME FLESH” was Just to demonstrate that GOD who was and Is “the Logos was really (IN) the “FLESH” MAN Jesus.
One thing i can say for the Trinitarians is at least they do acknowledge that GOD was truly Present (IN) Jesus. Only problem they think that Jesus was that GOD that was Present (IN) Him. But at lest the do see God's Presents. That is better than you Preexistences that think He was a Morphed Angel or demigod of some kind are. IMO
peace and love……………………………………gene
Yes Gene,
“The Word BECAME flesh” or “The Word CAME TO BE flesh”.
But NOT “The Word came to be IN someone who was flesh”.
Surely even YOU can see the difference, right?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 24 2011,11:55) Mike have you ever SEEN A PHYSICAL “FLESH” WORD EVER in you life.
Yes Gene,I have seen many SPOKESMEN for many products on TV commercials. And that's all Jesus' title “the Word of God” means, Gene. That he is God's spokesman.
Quote
The Greek Word in John 1:14 is Logos which means “What God has spoken”. This Word pertains to Jesus and it was made a reality when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. notice that John 1:14 states that the Word or Logos became or was made flesh. It does not state that Jesus became flesh. And John 1 reads in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (It does not read in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God and Jesus became flesh.)Revelation 19 is speaking of Jesus coming with his saints to execute judgement on those who accepted the Mark of the Beast. These are those people who were not saved and were alive at his coming for the church.
Marty! Just read all that Mike is saying about The Word of God, that is what I also believe. The Word of God is the firstborn of all; creation. Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 and then through Jesus all was created.
ask yourself can the literal Word of God become flesh? No, it is a title for who became Jesus, just like God is….
Both John and Col say the same thing. In both Scripture it says that God created all through the Word of God, John 1:3 and Col. 1;16….
Peace adn Love Irene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2011,05:07) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 24 2011,11:55) Mike have you ever SEEN A PHYSICAL “FLESH” WORD EVER in you life.
Yes Gene,I have seen many SPOKESMEN for many products on TV commercials. And that's all Jesus' title “the Word of God” means, Gene. That he is God's spokesman.
Mike……….Again you did not answer the question, you try to change it to fit your rendition of what you think i was asking. So I will Ask it again, did you (EVER SEE) a “FLESH WORD” Not a Spokesman of any type, but a “FLESH WORD”, and even if you saw a flesh and blood “Spokesman” the words he spoke WERE NOT FLESH Now were they……..Please as you say just Yes or NO answer do what you require of others Mike Just answer the question Yes Or NO. IF your answer is still YES then I will accuse of LYING> To us all and misrepresenting my direct question, That should be worthy of a tile right?peace and love…………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2011,14:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2011,05:07) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 24 2011,11:55) Mike have you ever SEEN A PHYSICAL “FLESH” WORD EVER in you life.
Yes Gene,I have seen many SPOKESMEN for many products on TV commercials. And that's all Jesus' title “the Word of God” means, Gene. That he is God's spokesman.
Mike……….Again you did not answer the question, you try to change it to fit your rendition of what you think i was asking. So I will Ask it again, did you (EVER SEE) a “FLESH WORD” Not a Spokesman of any type, but a “FLESH WORD”, and even if you saw a flesh and blood “Spokesman” the words he spoke WERE NOT FLESH Now were they……..Please as you say just Yes or NO answer do what you require of others Mike Just answer the question Yes Or NO. IF your answer is still YES then I will accuse of LYING> To us all and misrepresenting my direct question, That should be worthy of a tile right?peace and love…………………………………..gene
genedo you are sure(you) Gene is flesh and blood ?yes or no
Pierre
Gene,
I have answered this many, many times. Jesus is the Word of God because he is the spokesman of God. And YES, I have seen many flesh spokesmen. But NO, I have never seen a SPOKEN word of someone become flesh. (Nor did I actually SEE Jesus become flesh.
)I've also explained to you the errors of changing the words of scripture just because your flawed human mind cannot comprehend a “flesh word”.
Gene, intelligent people don't start rearranging scripture when they can't understand it. They study harder, pray for guidance, and read more and more until they begin to understand what they couldn't before. They try to come to an understanding that leaves the words of the scriptures in tact.
Mike………..So with all that gibberish, I suppose you are saying “NO” you have never seen a “FLESH WORD” correct. So if you do agree that a word is NOT FLESH, that is indeed a start for you. Now if we assume the LOGOS Became or came to be (IN) FLESH then we can understand that the LOGOS WAS (IN) Jesus , Just as Jesus said it was, But the error is when we begin to think that that LOGOS that was (IN) the FLESH MAN Jesus , was Jesus Himself. Can't you see Jesus Himself was (NOT) the WORD or LOGOS that was (IN) Him. If you don't believe me then Believe what Jesus SAID about those WORDS HE was SPEAKING, ” The word i am telling you are (NOT) my words but the words of him who sent me, now continue, Jesus also said the the Father was (IN) him I could give you more but this is a start for you , now just put that all together and the picture will begin to form in you mind. Jesus is not the LOGOS the LOGOS was (IN) HIM. Just that simple Mike. Lets give GOD the Father the Credit for the work He was doing (IN) and (THROUGH) Jesus, as Jesus always Did Mike. Mike it was the Father GOD who was doing the Work (IN) Jesus Just as Jesus said he was, you need to start to believe that and quit “Separating” Jesus from our exact Identity with him. IMO
peace and love………………………………………..gene
Yet that Word of God will come again, and these Scriptures prove it.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Peace Irene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2011,01:44) Quote (942767 @ July 22 2011,14:54)
What scripture states that before Jesus was Jesus he was “the first creature created by God”?
Col 1:15. Rev 3:14. Proverbs 8:22. Etc.Quote (942767 @ July 22 2011,14:54)
And also, please show me the scripture which states what kind of creature he was prior to becoming a man?
Phil 2Quote (942767 @ July 22 2011,14:54)
And would John 1 then read as follows? In the beginning was the first creature that God created, and that creature was with God, and that creature was in the form of God.
It would then read the same way it has always read:
In the beginning was the Word (who was the first creature God ever created), and the Word was with THE God, and the Word was himself a god.mike
Hi Mike:This is what Colossians 1:13-15 states:
Quote Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:[/b]
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 1:15 does not indicate that Jesus is the first creature that God created prior to becoming a man. This scripture begins with the verse telling us that we have been translated into the Kingdom of his dear Son, and verse 14 makes it clear that it is speaking of Jesus as a man, because it refers to the blood that he shed for the remission of our sins, being the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (NOT THE FIRST CREATURE CREATED BY GOD)
Revelation 3:14 states:
Quote Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Again this is speaking of Jesus as a man. Here in this verse he is speaking ot the last of the seven churches that he is correcting in his role has the head of the church. It begins here:
Quote Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Quote Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Quote Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. The beginning of the creation of God refers to the Last Adam, and does not say anything about Jesus being the “first creature created by God”.
Proverbs: 8 is speaking of Wisdom, but may refer indirectly to Jesus since God made every thing by him and for him, but it says nothing about Jesus being the first creature that God created. This is the way it reads:
Quote Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights [were] with the sons of men
I asked for you to show me a scripture which states what kind of creature Jesus was prior to becoming a man, and you say Philippians 2. And I will say show me where these scriptures state what kind of creature Jesus was prior to becoming a man.
And your response relative to my question about how John 1 would read if Jesus was the first creature created by God is:
Quote In the beginning was the Word (who was the first creature God ever created), and the Word was with THE God, and the Word was himself a god. If that is the case, we should find in the Greek/English dictionary as one of the definitions for Logos=the first creature created by God, would we not? And is this one of the definitions. And you say: it would read “and the Word was himself a god”. But you say that according to Philippians 2 he was the first creature created by God who was “in the form of God”
And so, which is correct? He was himself a god, or he was in the form of God. I haven't looked at all of the translations but the ones that I have looked at translate the last part of John 1 “and the Word was God”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Pastry @ July 26 2011,05:35) Quote
The Greek Word in John 1:14 is Logos which means “What God has spoken”. This Word pertains to Jesus and it was made a reality when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. notice that John 1:14 states that the Word or Logos became or was made flesh. It does not state that Jesus became flesh. And John 1 reads in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (It does not read in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God and Jesus became flesh.)Revelation 19 is speaking of Jesus coming with his saints to execute judgement on those who accepted the Mark of the Beast. These are those people who were not saved and were alive at his coming for the church.
Marty! Just read all that Mike is saying about The Word of God, that is what I also believe. The Word of God is the firstborn of all; creation. Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 and then through Jesus all was created.
ask yourself can the literal Word of God become flesh? No, it is a title for who became Jesus, just like God is….
Both John and Col say the same thing. In both Scripture it says that God created all through the Word of God, John 1:3 and Col. 1;16….
Peace adn Love Irene
Hi Mrs:Mike is saying that Jesus was the “first creature created by God”. Is that what you believe?
The scripture in Colossians 1:15 states that he is the “firstborn of every creature”, not the “first creature created by God”. There is a big difference. Read my post in response to Mike.
The Word in John 1 is Logos and the definition is:
Definition:
1.of speech
A.a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
B.what someone has said
a.a word
b.the sayings of God
c.decree, mandate or order
d.of the moral precepts given by God
e.Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
f.what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
C.discourse
a.the act of speaking, speech
b.the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
c.a kind or style of speaking
d.a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
D.doctrine, teaching
E.anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
F.matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
G.the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2.its use as respect to the MIND alone
A.reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
B.account, i.e. regard, consideration
C.account, i.e. reckoning, score
D.account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
E.relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
a.reason would
F.reason, cause, ground
3.In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.It is my understanding, based on this definition, is that the Word is that which God has spoken pertaining to Jesus, and it became flesh or a reality when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born into this world as a human being.
Jesus had many titles, but I have already showed you that the Word of God was that which God spoke to humanity through him, and he will judge all of humanity by this Word, and therefore, he has the title: His Name is called the “Word of God”. In Isaiah 9 he has the following titles:
Quote Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Love in Christ,
MartyTo all,
The Spirit of God came before Jesus and without the Spirit Jesus could do nothing.
It is the Spirit of God and not Jesus that is recorded as being present at the old creation.
Quote (942767 @ July 26 2011,19:37) Proverbs: 8 is speaking of Wisdom, but may refer indirectly to Jesus since God made every thing by him and for him, but it says nothing about Jesus being the first creature that God created. This is the way it reads: Quote Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
One thing at a time, Marty:Proverbs 8:22
NIV ©
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
NLT ©
“The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.MSG ©
“GOD sovereignly made me–the first, the basic–before he did anything else.BBE ©
The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past.NRSV ©
The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.NET © The Lord created 1 me as the beginning 2 of his works, 3 before his deeds of long ago.
Look at the footnote #1 from the NET translation:
Pro 8:221tn
There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish” (R. N. Whybray, “Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,” VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, “Where Will Wisdom Be Found?” JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42).Quote a newer translation next time, Marty. Many strides towards Hebrew and Greek understanding have been made in the 400 years since the KJV was translated.
mike
Marty
Quote It is my understanding, based on this definition, is that the Word is that which God has spoken pertaining to Jesus, and it became flesh or a reality when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born into this world as a human being. 1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,Mt 20:23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Jn 14:2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the LambRev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jn 5:27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man
Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.Marty because of those scriptures I can not believe your explanation,because you overlooked these scriptures;
the WORD is Christ and always was the son of God because he is the one for all thing were created.
in this understanding all scriptures are in support and so true,let God be found true for all men are liars.
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2011,07:54)
So if you do agree that a word is NOT FLESH, that is indeed a start for you.
Yes, we are in agreement that a spoken or written word is not flesh.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2011,07:54)
Now if we assume the LOGOS Became or came to be (IN) FLESH then we can understand that the LOGOS WAS (IN) Jesus ,
Yeah, but we can't assume that, because the word (IN) is NOT in the text Gene.So where does that leave us? We both agree that a regular old “word” did not become flesh, right? So we now have two choices:
1. Start adding our own words INTO the scriptures, thereby rewriting the written word of God Himself and changing the meaning of what God was inspiring the Bible writers to teach us.
OR………………………
2. Try to find another explanation for how a “word” could BECOME flesh – WITHOUT changing the scriptures themselves.
And as Irene has posted for you until her fingers bled, Revelation 19:13 speaks of a PERSON who has the name “Word of God”. Now could a PERSON who is known as “the Word” possibly have BECOME flesh? Absolutely!
He could have been existing in the form of God, but then emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being, right? HEY! Where have I heard that before?
Gene, the picture in our human heads of a “word” becoming a flesh thing just doesn't make any sense. But once you realize there was a PERSON in scripture who had the name “the Word”, things start to fall into place.
And then the fact that scripture says all things were created through the Son, BUT ALSO says that all things were created through the Word, starts to make sense.
And the fact that this “Word” had the glory of God's only begotten Son, which we KNOW is a glory that Jesus has, also makes complete sense.
And “I came down from heaven and some of you will see me ascend to where I was before” really hits home – especially after you read where some of those disciples DID actually see Jesus ascend to where he was before.
And Proverbs 8:22 and 30:4 and Psalm 2:7 and Micah 5:2 all begin to fall into place.
Gene, I could go on and on all day. But you only need to visit the Pre-existent Database thread to see how this story ends.
So, which will it be Gene? Will you choose option #1 and rewrite the scriptures by adding your own words – just because YOU PERSONALLY can't understand them?
Or will you search out another explanation for a word becoming flesh – one you DON'T have to rewrite the scriptures for?
I've shown you a very valid and scripturally supported explanation in this very post, Gene. You can either accept it as the scriptural truth that it is, or continue to rewrite your own scriptures until they form around whatever wishes you might have. The choice, my friend, is completely yours.
peace,
mikeQuote (942767 @ July 26 2011,19:37) And so, which is correct? He was himself a god, or he was in the form of God. I haven't looked at all of the translations but the ones that I have looked at translate the last part of John 1 “and the Word was God”.
Hi Marty,Then you need to look at the NWT, which translates John 1:1 correctly. I would love to discuss this with you in the “Freak Greek” thread if you're willing.
But let me point out two quick things for now:
1. It is clear from John 1:1 that TWO are being discussed because one was WITH the other. Both of these have been given the title “theos” by John, but only one of them has been called THE theos. So basically, “A god” was with “THE God” in the beginning.
2. I want you to see some parts of what even the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars from NETNotes say about it:
Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb.So far, these Trinitarian scholars have agreed that there are THREE legitimate ways to translate 1:1, and “a god” is one of those three. They continue:
The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”); rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence.This part of what they say confuses me, since they ARE Trinitarians and supposedly think God is THREE persons. So I don't know what they mean by saying the “theos” in 1:1c cannot be THE person of God.
But the reason I quoted this part was to show you that even the Trinitarians, who want desparately for Jesus to BE God Almighty, agree that the words “WITH GOD” prohibit the god in 1:1c from BEING the God he was WITH.Therefore, like I said, TWO are spoken of here. And BOTH of them are called “god”. It is a case of one god being with “THE God”.
Not to mention there are five other scriptures that refer to Jesus as a god, Marty.
Once again it seems you have been found in need of a better translation.
peace,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ July 27 2011,08:36) To all, The Spirit of God came before Jesus and without the Spirit Jesus could do nothing.
It is the Spirit of God and not Jesus that is recorded as being present at the old creation.
To all,If anyone disagress with my points I would liike to know why they disagree. Thank you!
Quote (kerwin @ July 27 2011,16:06) Quote (kerwin @ July 27 2011,08:36) To all, The Spirit of God came before Jesus and without the Spirit Jesus could do nothing.
It is the Spirit of God and not Jesus that is recorded as being present at the old creation.
To all,If anyone disagress with my points I would liike to know why they disagree. Thank you!
Kerwin! What do you mean by old creation? ….IreneQuote (terraricca @ July 27 2011,14:18) Marty Quote It is my understanding, based on this definition, is that the Word is that which God has spoken pertaining to Jesus, and it became flesh or a reality when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born into this world as a human being. 1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,Mt 20:23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Jn 14:2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the LambRev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jn 5:27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man
Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.Marty because of those scriptures I can not believe your explanation,because you overlooked these scriptures;
the WORD is Christ and always was the son of God because he is the one for all thing were created.
in this understanding all scriptures are in support and so true,let God be found true for all men are liars.
Pierre
Hi Pierre:This is what the scriptures state:
Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
And Jesus stated:
Quote Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
And so, Jesus is the Christ through whom God has spoken to humanity, and he has obeyed the Word of God even unto death on the cross, but he is not the origin of the Word, God has spoken through him. And he will judge all of humanity by this Word that God has spoken to humanity through him.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (kerwin @ July 27 2011,13:36) To all, The Spirit of God came before Jesus and without the Spirit Jesus could do nothing.
It is the Spirit of God and not Jesus that is recorded as being present at the old creation.
Hi Kerwin:The Spirit of God is God's Spirit, and His Spirit is the life that He lives, but the concept of redeeming humanity to Himself through His Only Begotten Son was planned from the beginning, and so, Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from before the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person until he was born into this world from the womb of the Virgin Mary as God's Only Begotten Son.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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