Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 11 2011,19:35)

This is speculation because the scripture in Philippians does not state that “he existed in the form of God” before he became a human being. You are you not adding something to the scripture?

Okay Marty!  

Have in you the mind of the drunkard,
Who, existing with a full bladder,
Emptied himself,
And came to have an empty bladder.

Marty, there is no word “before” in that scenario either, right?  But are you intelligent enough to understand that it is a chain of events that took place in a certain order?

This is why I sometimes have to laugh at you guys.  Just like the Trinitarians must ignore logic so simple a 3 year old could understand it, you must also ignore the same simple logic to support your own wishes.

You know Marty, right now on another thread, Kangaroo Jack is attempting to convince people that it makes perfect sense for him to be the same exact BEING as his own father – just to support his claim that the Son OF God can be the same BEING as the God he is the Son OF.

Surely from the outside of his flawed doctrine looking in, you can see how absurd his claim is, and how desparate he must be to make such a claim, right?

Well, you're doing the same exact thing here.  And the worst part is that you even AGREE that it is a chain of events!  It's just that YOU think he was in the form of God AS A MAN, BUT THEN emptied himself of his “pomp”, AND THEN continued on in his ministry as a servant.

So you even REALISE that the “form of God” came BEFORE he emptied himself to serve others.  And you REALISE this even though the word “BEFORE” is not in the scripture, right?

So you KNOW the “before” is implied even in YOUR view, but then use the absence of the written word “before” to refute MY view?    

That's just too much, Marty!  

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 12 2011,19:46)

Quote (terraricca @ July 12 2011,12:42) Marty Quote The following scripture prohibits Jesus from preexisting as a human being: Quote   Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.   One question is this includes materialized angels ?angels,animals ,ect OR IS IT ONLY HUMANS OFSPRING? so please let me know what you understand by that scripture Pierre Hi Pierre: If you will read what I said, it will answer your question. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

you are using deceit ,answer the question please

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (942767 @ July 12 2011,12:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2011,07:18) Quote (942767 @ July 10 2011,11:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2011,05:46) Hi Marty, Were you going to address my last post on this thread?  Or should I just be waiting for the time that you finally find a scripture that actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing?   Hi Mike: The following scripture prohibits Jesus from preexisting as a human being: Quote Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, You know full well that when we speak of the pre-existence of Jesus, we are not talking about a pre-existent human being but a pre-existent spirit being…right?  The pre-existent spirit being becomes also flesh, as a human being, but wasn't always flesh. Kathi Hi Kathi: Do you have a scripture which states that Jesus pre-existed his birth as a spirit being?  If not, you don't have a point. If you are using John 1:1 as proof of this, the scriptures state that the Word or Greek, Logos, was with God. Jesus the Human being was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, if he was a spirit being prior to this, please show me how this took place? And by the scripture that I quoted about Eve being the mother of all living.  It shows without a doubt that he did not pre-exist as a human being.   And he did not pre-exist as God, because the scripture states that there is but “One God”, and John 1:1 states that In the begining was the Word and Word was withGod, and so, if you are indicating that the Word was Jesus, he did not pre-exist as God since he was “with God”, and then the verse continues and states that the Word was God, and so if this is Jesus, then you are saying that there is two Gods, or just how do you figure that the Word was with God and Word was God. And the scripture states “For God so love the world that he gave His Only Begotten Son…” and then states when Jesus was to receive the Holy Spirit, God speaking saying “this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”.  And this indicates to me that God was speaking of the Son that was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and not begotten some other way. And so, you and those who teach that Jesus pre-existed as a “spirit being” is speculation unless you have a scripture which states that he did. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty……..They have no scripture that say Jesus preexisted before his berth on earth , it just pure speculation recieved from the Spirit of Delusion on all who love not the truth sent to them by God himself . Noe if God has given them a Deluding Spirit in order for them to “BELIEVE THE LIE” and all the sound reasoning in the world will never convience them because a block has been put there by GOD. It is Best to just Leave it alone and Just realize it is impossible for them to recieve the truth at this time Brother. Jesus did not waste his time with such as these because he understood that if GOD the Father has not given them the Spirit to understand these things no man can get them to either. IMO

peace and love to you and your Marty………………………gene

[terraricca]

gene

be careful what you wich  

Quote

They have no scripture that say Jesus preexisted before his berth on earth , it just pure speculation recieved from the Spirit of Delusion on all who love not the truth sent to them by God himself . Noe if God has given them a Deluding Spirit in order for them to “BELIEVE THE LIE” and all the sound reasoning in the world will never convience them because a block has been put there by GOD. It is Best to just Leave it alone and Just realize it is impossible for them to recieve the truth at this time Brother. Jesus did not waste his time with such as these because he understood that if GOD the Father has not given them the Spirit to understand these things no man can get them to either. IMO peace and love to you and your Marty………………………gene

Mt 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

the truth lays by those who let the scriptures talk by not adding or subtract anything,

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book

Mike ,Irene,T8 and me do not use a magic word to make our understanding true ,like ¸it was in the mind of God – there is no scriptures that say this, or ;trinity;there are no scriptures that claims that it is so,

or state that the son his the father, there are no scriptures that say this;

or when scriptures say plainly that there is a spiritual body ;they do not want to believe it they do not understand that they reject the word of God ;

and then they call others speculators ?or having a spirit of delusion?believing in lies ?

when it is them self that are in error

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Pierre……> O REALLY they where is your scripture the “SAYS JESUS “PREEXISTED” HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH” THEN”? accusing others of what you are doing is called (HYPOCRISY) Pierre. The SPIRIT of TRUTH is what give us the understand of those scriptures it “the Holy Spriti goes beyond just word it give the sense of those words.< not in the letter or what is written, as is evident here. Posting hundreds of scriptures has nothing to do with a person understanding what they are posting. A person can quote the whole bible and not understand hardly any of it Pierre. Why do you think there are thousand of different denomination in Christianity Pierre, they all quote scripture they way they interpret them just as you Preexistences and Trinitarians do. IMO

peace and love…………………………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Bump for Gene:

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2011,07:58)

Terricca………..Notice your post , Not one mention of God the Father, Now that might not seem like much , but is really is, Because that is what the teaching of the Trinity and Preexistence Separation does it move GOD out of the Picture and replaces Him with Jesus.

Ah, so another one of Gene's agendas has been revealed!  

Gene, this one I agree with, as I know Pierre also does.  We both fight against the trinni's each day because THEY take so much away from our God by attributing many of HIS deeds and such to His Son.  They share God's glory with one of His creations and also worship the creation along with the Creator.

We do all we can to stop people from placing Jesus on a level with God.  All we want is for Jesus to be placed exactly where the scriptures teach he should be placed.

But believing the scriptural proof that Jesus was God's first creation and all else was created through him is NOT placing Jesus on God's level, nor “replacing” God with Jesus.  It is simply a matter of letting the scriptures form OUR understanding instead of making the scriptures form AROUND our own understanding.

How is what YOU do any better than what the trinni's do?  They try to raise Jesus to a level HIGHER than what scripture teaches while you try to place him at a level LOWER than what the scriptures teach.  And here we are (me and Irene and Pierre and t8) stuck in the middle, EXACTLY aligned with the scriptures themselves, fighting a battle on two fronts.

Gene, Jesus said the GREATEST of humans was less than the LEAST of those of heaven.  Yet Jesus, even on earth, had COMMAND over ALL of the angels.  Remember what Satan told him.  Satan didn't say God would send His angels to save ANY HUMAN if he threw himself off a mountain.  But ONLY His Son.  Not just ANY HUMAN could call down 10,000 angels to take his place, right?  ONLY Jesus could do that.  So does that sound like Jesus was including himself in his teaching?  Was Jesus saying that John the Baptist was GREATER than him?  Was Jesus saying that even HE was lessor than the LEAST one in heaven?

peace,
mike

[Istari]

Wow Mike,
What a lot you write – and you accuse me?(vous m'accusez)?

Anyway, just to let you know I read it all .. And you are right in this regard.

Sorry Gene, but I'm in the preExistent camp.

I think you are right about many things concerning jesus life while on earth and about Spirit Bodies of MANKIND, though.

[Istari]

Only one point though.

A righteous person – like Moses, or David ..could call down Angels to fight for them … The Angels are Angels of God – not Jesus – but Jesus could pray (Petition) his father for help. Just as anyone who is called 'Son of God' could do if need be.

Jesus had AUTHORITY over the fallen Angels – but All men of righteousness do, too.
That is how the disciples and Apostles removed (exorcised) bad spirits from people!

Of course, they ALL, including Jesus, PRAYED to God for help so nothing was attributed to them personally – give God the glory…!

[942767]

Hi Mike:

You say:

Quote

But believing the scriptural proof that Jesus was God's first creation and all else was created through him is NOT placing Jesus on God's level, nor “replacing” God with Jesus. It is simply a matter of letting the scriptures form OUR understanding instead of making the scriptures form AROUND our own understanding.

The problem is that you are misunderstanding what is being stated through these scriptures:

Is there a “first Adam” according to the scripture?

Is Jesus the “Last Adam” according to the scriptures?

Did God make man in His Own Image, according to the scriptures?

Is Jesus the “Express image of God's person”, according to the scriptures?

Do you understand the following scriptures?

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

To All………Jesus said “ I have glorified (YOU) upon the earth”. Jesus never glorified his self ever, ” if i glory myself my glory is nothing” it is the father that glorifies me”, now notice carefully this, Joh 8:50….> But I do not seek my own glory: now take notice; “THERE IS (HE), that seeks (glory) and Judges. Now tell us Mike who is that, 'HE” that seek glory and Judges. is it not the one and ONLY True GOD?.

Why should any one glorify anyone except GOD, it is GOD the FATHER that SEEK GLORY and JUDGES according to Jesus. But you trinitarians and Preexistence destory that by separating Jesus form our exact identity Making him greater then all other man kind, but Jesus never said he was any different from anyone in fact he called himself son of Man 87 times, so he seemed to relate himself in exact the same condition all humanity is in. But you false teachers make him different and destory the work of GOD in the man Jesus the Christ of GOD You give him advantages he simply did not have as a human being and you drive a wedge between him and us , this “separation” is totally Antichrist a work of deception that works in all trinitarians and Preexistences alike.

Here is something to chew on Mike, Seeing you have separated Jesus from yourself and your identity with him .

Joh 14:12……….> Verily, verily, i say unto you, He that believes on me, the works that
I do shall he do (also), and (greater work) than these shall he do

Tell us Mike does that sound like Jesus was different then we are? So though you chide the Trinitarians for Moving Jesus to a GOD Level you preexistence do the same but maybe not to the level of God , but to a level of a demigod or super angel or what ever, but still ,as they do you also work to SEPARATE Jesus from our exact identity , therefore you are not better then they in this respect. You both destory the work of GOD in Mankind, (IN) the 100% pure non preexisting MAN JESUS THE Christ OF GOD. This is what being a ANTICHRIST is all about it is about the
SEPARATING work of deceivers who would make Jesus different then we are. All who separate Jesus' (identity) from themselves will recieve it in the future and to me that is sad.

peace and love……………………………..gene

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 14 2011,08:59)

Hi Mike: You say: Quote But believing the scriptural proof that Jesus was God's first creation and all else was created through him is NOT placing Jesus on God's level, nor “replacing” God with Jesus.  It is simply a matter of letting the scriptures form OUR understanding instead of making the scriptures form AROUND our own understanding. The problem is that you are misunderstanding what is being stated through these scriptures: Is there a “first Adam” according to the scripture? Is Jesus the “Last Adam” according to the scriptures? Did God make man in His Own Image, according to the scriptures? Is Jesus the “Express image of God's person”, according to the scriptures? Do you understand the following scriptures? Quote Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30   Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Love in Christ, Marty

marty

your truth in scriptures is not right,
each time you quoting an idea or scriptures you do not take in consideration half of other scriptures that says otherwise

why is that?

like you never talk with Col;1;13-18
at the same time ROM 8;

Ro 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit(will) of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit(submission) of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

you see COL;1;13-18,talks about who is Christ, while Roman;8 talks about who is IN Christ,

so stop to confuse people

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2011,02:28)

Quote (942767 @ July 14 2011,08:59) Hi Mike: You say: Quote But believing the scriptural proof that Jesus was God's first creation and all else was created through him is NOT placing Jesus on God's level, nor “replacing” God with Jesus.  It is simply a matter of letting the scriptures form OUR understanding instead of making the scriptures form AROUND our own understanding. The problem is that you are misunderstanding what is being stated through these scriptures: Is there a “first Adam” according to the scripture? Is Jesus the “Last Adam” according to the scriptures? Did God make man in His Own Image, according to the scriptures? Is Jesus the “Express image of God's person”, according to the scriptures? Do you understand the following scriptures? Quote Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30   Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Love in Christ, Marty marty your truth in scriptures is not right, each time you quoting an idea or scriptures you do not take in consideration half of other scriptures that says otherwise why is that? like you never talk with Col;1;13-18 at the same time ROM 8; Ro 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit(will) of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit(submission) of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. you see COL;1;13-18,talks about who is Christ, while Roman;8  talks about who is IN Christ, so stop to confuse people Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Please answer the questions that I asked in the scripture that I quoted to Mike.

I have some things that I could say to you, but I will hold my peace since God knows my heart.

There is a song which goes: “I am loved, I am loved, I can risk loving you, for the one who knows me best, loves me most.”

The scripture that I quoted from Romans states about Jesus: that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

I am not the author of confusion, and with the judgement that you judge your condemn yourself.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (Istari @ July 14 2011,00:57)

Only one point though. A righteous person – like Moses, or David ..could call down Angels to fight for them … The Angels are Angels of God – not Jesus – but Jesus could pray (Petition) his father for help. Just as anyone who is called 'Son of God' could do if need be. Jesus had AUTHORITY over the fallen Angels – but All men of righteousness do, too. That is how the disciples and Apostles removed (exorcised) bad spirits from people! Of course, they ALL, including Jesus, PRAYED to God for help so nothing was attributed to them personally – give God the glory…!

istari

in witch book did you read that ?

if you can show scriptures i be delighted thank you ahead for it

Pierre

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

The scripture that I quoted from Romans states about Jesus: that he might be the firstborn among many brethren I am not the author of confusion, and with the judgement that you judge your condemn yourself. Love in Christ, Marty

Ro 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
Ro 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Ro 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.

And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
Ro 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us

Ro 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life

Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.

Ro 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

in hope
Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

Ro 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Ro 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

Ro 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose

Ro 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Ro 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ro 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Ro 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
Ro 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Ro 8:36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
Ro 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
Ro 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
Ro 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

so who are the brothers of Christ? the 144k in Revelation,

who his the first in everything ? Christ is ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him

read it without your own personal religion crap in your mind, let only scriptures talk.

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2011,08:16)

Marty Quote The scripture that I quoted from Romans states about Jesus: that he might be the firstborn among many brethren I am not the author of confusion, and with the judgement that you judge your condemn yourself. Love in Christ, Marty Ro 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Ro 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Ro 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, Ro 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us Ro 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. Ro 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. in hope Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Ro 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. Ro 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. Ro 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose Ro 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Ro 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Ro 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? Ro 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Ro 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Ro 8:36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” Ro 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. Ro 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, Ro 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. so who are the brothers of Christ? the 144k in Revelation, who his the first in everything ? Christ is ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him read it without your own personal religion crap in your mind, let only scriptures talk. Pierre

Hi Pierre:

You are giving me an opportunity to put into practice the Word of God in many ways.

The scripture states that “I should love my enemies, and to do good to those that hate me, and to pray for those who desipitefully use me and persecute me, and to turn the other cheek when someone insults me, and the scripture states that a servant of the Lord shall not strive but to be gentle apt to teach, and all this requires patience, and the Lord is my example.

As He has said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

And the Lord has also said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay”. Not that I am looking for vengeance, but I believe that you owe me an apology. Who are you to talk to me as if I were your dog?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 14 2011,15:32)

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2011,08:16) Marty Quote The scripture that I quoted from Romans states about Jesus: that he might be the firstborn among many brethren I am not the author of confusion, and with the judgement that you judge your condemn yourself. Love in Christ, Marty Ro 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Ro 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Ro 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, Ro 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us Ro 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. Ro 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. in hope Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Ro 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. Ro 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. Ro 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose Ro 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Ro 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Ro 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? Ro 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Ro 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Ro 8:36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” Ro 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. Ro 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, Ro 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. so who are the brothers of Christ? the 144k in Revelation, who his the first in everything ? Christ is ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him read it without your own personal religion crap in your mind, let only scriptures talk. Pierre Hi Pierre: You are giving me an opportunity to put into practice the Word of God in many ways. The scripture states that “I should love my enemies, and to do good to those that hate me, and to pray for those who desipitefully use me and persecute me, and to turn the other cheek when someone insults me, and the scripture states that a servant of the Lord shall not strive but to be gentle apt to teach, and all this requires patience, and the Lord is my example. As He has said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. And the Lord has also said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay”.  Not that I am looking for vengeance, but I believe that you owe me an apology.  Who are you to talk to me as if I were your dog? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

you dragging out side of what you suppose to answer ,and go to something other than what you are trying to teach

are you unable to truthfully answer with scriptures ?

your comment is irrelevant to what is on hand here .

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2011,08:45)

Quote (942767 @ July 14 2011,15:32) Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2011,08:16) Marty Quote The scripture that I quoted from Romans states about Jesus: that he might be the firstborn among many brethren I am not the author of confusion, and with the judgement that you judge your condemn yourself. Love in Christ, Marty Ro 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Ro 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Ro 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, Ro 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us Ro 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. Ro 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. in hope Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Ro 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. Ro 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. Ro 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose Ro 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Ro 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Ro 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? Ro 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Ro 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Ro 8:36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” Ro 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. Ro 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, Ro 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. so who are the brothers of Christ? the 144k in Revelation, who his the first in everything ? Christ is ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him read it without your own personal religion crap in your mind, let only scriptures talk. Pierre Hi Pierre: You are giving me an opportunity to put into practice the Word of God in many ways. The scripture states that “I should love my enemies, and to do good to those that hate me, and to pray for those who desipitefully use me and persecute me, and to turn the other cheek when someone insults me, and the scripture states that a servant of the Lord shall not strive but to be gentle apt to teach, and all this requires patience, and the Lord is my example. As He has said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. And the Lord has also said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay”.  Not that I am looking for vengeance, but I believe that you owe me an apology.  Who are you to talk to me as if I were your dog? Love in Christ, Marty Marty you dragging out side of what you suppose to answer ,and go to something other than what you are trying to teach are you unable to truthfully answer with scriptures ? your comment is irrelevant to what is on hand here . Pierre

Hi Pierre:

I have already answered your questions relative to these scriptures except for the fact that you want to throw in the 144,000.

And you ask: “Who are the brothers of Christ”? The 144,000?

All Christians who have been born again are the brothers of Christ not just the 144,000.

The 144,000 are those who have not been defiled through false doctrine, and through whom the church will be corrected in these last days. The scriptures state that they are virgins (This is speaking of their not commiting spiritual fornication)

This is my understanding of the 144,000, and so, now what is your understanding of these?

And I will answer any other question that you have relative to the scriptures, but don't speak to me as if I am your dog.
I have one Lord who is my master.

I have already answered your questions relative to those verses in Colossians which you keep bringing up. Jesus is the “firstborn of God”. Prior to him no man had been born of God, but he did not pre-exist his birth into this world as a sentient person. He was foreordained and was made manifest to humanity in God's timing. He is the last Adam. The man who is the “express image of God's person”, and we who are born again and are his disciples are being conformed into his image as we l
earn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives.

If you believe that he pre-existed his birth into this world as a sentient person, then teach what you believe to be the truth, but I do not believe this and I will also teach what I believe to be the truth. Both you and I are accountable to God for what we teach.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 13 2011,08:59)

Is there a “first Adam” according to the scripture? Is Jesus the “Last Adam” according to the scriptures? Did God make man in His Own Image, according to the scriptures? Is Jesus the “Express image of God's person”, according to the scriptures?

Hi Marty,

YES to all four questions.

Quote (942767 @ July 13 2011,08:59)

Do you understand the following scriptures? Quote Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30   Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Absolutely.  But you apparently think they say something that prohibits Jesus from pre-existing, right?  I don't see anything like that in those scriptures.  So lay it on me, man!  Tell me exactly how those scriptures prohibit the pre-existence of Jesus.

Oh, and then please address my last point to you.  If you'll remember, you are also aware of the sequential chain of events in Phil 2.  Why then would you try to quash my view by saying the word “before” is not in that passage, when you also realize that “before” is implied?

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 13 2011,09:27)

Here is something to chew on Mike…………

No, it's YOUR turn to answer some questions, Gene.

Gene, was Jesus able to COMMAND 10,000 angels to take his place on the stake?

If so, does it sound like he was lessor than the least one in heaven, like all other men are?

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 14 2011,17:09)

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2011,08:45) Quote (942767 @ July 14 2011,15:32) Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2011,08:16) Marty Quote The scripture that I quoted from Romans states about Jesus: that he might be the firstborn among many brethren I am not the author of confusion, and with the judgement that you judge your condemn yourself. Love in Christ, Marty Ro 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Ro 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Ro 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, Ro 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us Ro 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. Ro 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. in hope Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Ro 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. Ro 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. Ro 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose Ro 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Ro 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Ro 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? Ro 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Ro 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Ro 8:36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” Ro 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. Ro 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, Ro 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. so who are the brothers of Christ? the 144k in Revelation, who his the first in everything ? Christ is ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him read it without your own personal religion crap in your mind, let only scriptures talk. Pierre Hi Pierre: You are giving me an opportunity to put into practice the Word of God in many ways. The scripture states that “I should love my enemies, and to do good to those that hate me, and to pray for those who desipitefully use me and persecute me, and to turn the other cheek when someone insults me, and the scripture states that a servant of the Lord shall not strive but to be gentle apt to teach, and all this requires patience, and the Lord is my example. As He has said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. And the Lord has also said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay”.  Not that I am looking for vengeance, but I believe that you owe me an apology.  Who are you to talk to me as if I were your dog? Love in Christ, Marty Marty you dragging out side of what you suppose to answer ,and go to something other than what you are trying to teach are you unable to truthfully answer with scriptures ? your comment is irrelevant to what is on hand here . Pierre Hi Pierre: I have already answered your questions relative to these scriptures except for the fact that you want to throw in the 144,000. And you ask:  “Who are the brothers of Christ”? The 144,000? All Christians who have been born again are the brothers of Christ not just the 144,000. The 144,000 are those who have not been defiled through false doctrine, and through whom the church will be corrected in these last days.  The scriptures state that they are virgins (This is speaking of their not commiting spiritual fornication) This is my understanding of the 144,000, and so, now what is your understanding of these? And I will answer any other question that you have relative to the scriptures, but don't speak to me as if I am your dog. I have one Lord who is my master. I have already answered your questions relative to those verses in Colossians which you keep bringing up.  Jesus is the “firstborn of God”.  Prior to him no man had been born of God, but he did not pre-exist his birth into this world as a sentient person.  He was foreordained and was made manifest to human ity in God's timing.  He is the last Adam.  The man who is the “express image of God's person”, and we who are born again and are his disciples are being conformed into his image as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives. If you believe that he pre-existed his birth into this world as a sentient person, then teach what you believe to be the truth, but I do not believe this and I will also teach what I believe to be the truth.  Both you and I are accountable to God for what we teach. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

so you have your own personal interpretation of scriptures ,right ?

because what you believe is not what all letters of Paul put together are teaching ,right ? or do they ?

Pierre

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