Preexistence

[Pastry]

Marty! This is to prove that Jesus didn't exist, before He became a man?

Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Jesus was a Spirit Being first, and then He became flesh…. like John 1:1-14 shows us. And God created all through Jesus.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

He is the firstborn of all creation…

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Marty, these are really clear Scriptures, I don't know why you want to deny them….

Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

They really ARE very clear scriptures, aren't they Irene?  It simply amazes me that someone's WISH for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” would lead them to ignore the very scriptures God preserved to teach us about these things.  

[GeneBalthrop]

MIke……………If he did not exist exactly the same as we are, then he has no right to tell us to “OVERCOME AS HE DID In what way would we be able to do the if we are not exactly like Him , becasue of all the Prior advantages he would have Had. God was not dealing with saving Angel or Demigods or GOD'S from anything He was dealing with Man by a Pure 100% Identical HUMAN Being. Jesus is our example because he is exactly like in ever way we are Why do you think it say he was the FIRSTBORN from creation of many brethren Mike you are as wrong about Jesus preexistence as WJ is about the Trinity.

peace and love………………………………………….gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2011,18:30)

MIke……………If he did not exist exactly the same as we are, then he has no right to tell us to “OVERCOME AS HE DID  In what way would we be able to do the if we are not exactly like Him , becasue of all the Prior advantages he would have Had. God was not dealing with saving Angel or Demigods or GOD'S from anything He was dealing with Man by a Pure 100% Identical HUMAN Being. Jesus is our example because he is exactly like in ever way we are Why do you think it say he was the FIRSTBORN from creation of many brethren  Mike you are as wrong about Jesus preexistence as WJ is about the Trinity. peace and love………………………………………….gene

gene

it does not matter if Christ was different or not IT IS THE TRUTH THAT HE RELEASE TO US AND THE SACRIFICE HE MADE THAT MAKE IT ALL POSSIBLE ,

SO IF WE FOLLOW THE TRUTH THAT CHRIST AND HIS DISCIPLES HAVE GIVEN US WE BE SAVED,

Pierre

[Pastry]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2011,09:51)

They really ARE very clear scriptures, aren't they Irene?  It simply amazes me that someone's WISH for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” would lead them to ignore the very scriptures God preserved to teach us about these things.

Yes, Mike…. Amd then to think that Jesus has to be excatly like us, is not according to Scripture either. In fact, He is the only begotten Son of God, while we are the adopted Sons of God…. And Gene says that over and over again without showing a Scripture to prove it….
Peace and Love Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 10 2011,18:30)

MIke……………If he did not exist exactly the same as we are, then he has no right to tell us to “OVERCOME AS HE DID  In what way would we be able to do the if we are not exactly like Him , becasue of all the Prior advantages he would have Had. God was not dealing with saving Angel or Demigods or GOD'S from anything He was dealing with Man by a Pure 100% Identical HUMAN Being. Jesus is our example because he is exactly like in ever way we are Why do you think it say he was the FIRSTBORN from creation of many brethren  Mike you are as wrong about Jesus preexistence as WJ is about the Trinity. peace and love………………………………………….gene

But Gene,

That's like saying that those people in countries that punish Christians severely don't have as much of a chance to overcome as we in America and Canada do.

Nobody is really “exactly like” anybody else.  

Gene, none of us were fathered by God through His Holy Spirit.  Doesn't that in itself prohibit Jesus from being “exactly like us in every way”?

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike……….There you go again distorting what i have said , It makes no difference where or in what country you are in , Jesus is and was still Just a Human Being and what worked for Him will work for any human being in exactly the same way I am and was not talking about disadvantage humans i am talking about the way they overcome their sin and it is exactly as Jesus a fellow Human being did. It is by the Spirit or LOGOS of GOD being (IN) them as it was also in Jesus our exact identical brother IMO

But you Preexistences and Trinitarians have moved and SEPARATED JESUS FROM OUR IDENTITY you move him away from us by your false teaching and even more you have made a IDOL of Jesus turning Him into the THE MAN OF SIN WRITTEN ABOUT by Paul in 2Ths 2.

Mike have you forgotten Jesus words that said to his disciples , ” Verily, verily. I say unto you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do (ALSO); AND GREATER WORKS then these shall he do; because I go unto the Father”. Now tell us Mike does that make Jesus different from Us as You profess. Your work of SEPARATION of our Identity with Jesus only serves to destory the work of GOD and also is Against Jesus and His words also. IMO

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2011,11:38)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2011,18:30) MIke……………If he did not exist exactly the same as we are, then he has no right to tell us to “OVERCOME AS HE DID  In what way would we be able to do the if we are not exactly like Him , becasue of all the Prior advantages he would have Had. God was not dealing with saving Angel or Demigods or GOD'S from anything He was dealing with Man by a Pure 100% Identical HUMAN Being. Jesus is our example because he is exactly like in ever way we are Why do you think it say he was the FIRSTBORN from creation of many brethren  Mike you are as wrong about Jesus preexistence as WJ is about the Trinity. peace and love………………………………………….gene gene it does not matter if Christ was different or not IT IS THE TRUTH THAT HE RELEASE TO US AND THE SACRIFICE HE MADE THAT MAKE IT ALL POSSIBLE , SO IF WE FOLLOW THE TRUTH THAT CHRIST AND HIS DISCIPLES HAVE GIVEN US WE BE SAVED, Pierre

Terricca………..Notice your post , Not one mention of God the Father, Now that might not seem like much , but is really is, Because that is what the teaching of the Trinity and Preexistence Separation does it move GOD out of the Picture and replaces Him with Jesus. and lets not forget Jesus said ” the word i am telling you are NOT MY WORDS but the words of HIM THAT SENT ME[/B .

Think about it Pierre

peace and love…………………………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2011,07:45)

am and was not talking about disadvantage humans i am talking about the way they overcome their sin and it is exactly as Jesus a fellow Human being did.

Gene,

Do you know of anyone who ever lived BESIDES JESUS, who was fathered DIRECTLY by God through His Holy Spirit?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2011,07:58)

Terricca………..Notice your post , Not one mention of God the Father, Now that might not seem like much , but is really is, Because that is what the teaching of the Trinity and Preexistence Separation does it move GOD out of the Picture and replaces Him with Jesus.

Ah, so another one of Gene's agendas has been revealed!  

Gene, this one I agree with, as I know Pierre also does.  We both fight against the trinni's each day because THEY take so much away from our God by attributing many of HIS deeds and such to His Son.  They share God's glory with one of His creations and also worship the creation along with the Creator.

We do all we can to stop people from placing Jesus on a level with God.  All we want is for Jesus to be placed exactly where the scriptures teach he should be placed.

But believing the scriptural proof that Jesus was God's first creation and all else was created through him is NOT placing Jesus on God's level, nor “replacing” God with Jesus. It is simply a matter of letting the scriptures form OUR understanding instead of making the scriptures form AROUND our own understanding.

How is what YOU do any better than what the trinni's do?  They try to raise Jesus to a level HIGHER than what scripture teaches while you try to place him at a level LOWER than what the scriptures teach.  And here we are (me and Irene and Pierre and t8) stuck in the middle, EXACTLY aligned with the scriptures themselves, fighting a battle on two fronts.

Gene, Jesus said the GREATEST of humans was less than the LEAST of those of heaven.  Yet Jesus, even on earth, had COMMAND over ALL of the angels.  Remember what Satan told him.  Satan didn't say God would send His angels to save ANY HUMAN if he threw himself off a mountain.  But ONLY His Son.  Not just ANY HUMAN could call down 10,000 angels to take his place, right?  ONLY Jesus could do that.  So does that sound like Jesus was including himself in his teaching?  Was Jesus saying that John the Baptist was GREATER than him?  Was Jesus saying that even HE was lessor than the LEAST one in heaven?

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Mike

Quote

Gene, Jesus said the GREATEST of humans was less than the LEAST of those of heaven. Yet Jesus, even on earth, had COMMAND over ALL of the angels. Remember what Satan told him. Satan didn't say God would send His angels to save ANY HUMAN if he threw himself off a mountain. But ONLY His Son. Not just ANY HUMAN could call down 10,000 angels to take his place, right? ONLY Jesus could do that. So does that sound like Jesus was including himself in his teaching? Was Jesus saying that John the Baptist was GREATER than him? Was Jesus saying that even HE was lessor than the LEAST one in heaven?

this is very good well explain truth in scriptures is seen here,

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 12 2011,07:58)

Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2011,11:38) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2011,18:30) MIke……………If he did not exist exactly the same as we are, then he has no right to tell us to “OVERCOME AS HE DID  In what way would we be able to do the if we are not exactly like Him , becasue of all the Prior advantages he would have Had. God was not dealing with saving Angel or Demigods or GOD'S from anything He was dealing with Man by a Pure 100% Identical HUMAN Being. Jesus is our example because he is exactly like in ever way we are Why do you think it say he was the FIRSTBORN from creation of many brethren  Mike you are as wrong about Jesus preexistence as WJ is about the Trinity. peace and love………………………………………….gene gene it does not matter if Christ was different or not IT IS THE TRUTH THAT HE RELEASE TO US AND THE SACRIFICE HE MADE THAT MAKE IT ALL POSSIBLE , SO IF WE FOLLOW THE TRUTH THAT CHRIST AND HIS DISCIPLES HAVE GIVEN US WE BE SAVED, Pierre Terricca………..Notice your post , Not one mention of God the Father, Now that might not seem like much , but is really is, Because that is what the teaching of the Trinity and Preexistence Separation does it move GOD out of the Picture and replaces Him with Jesus. and lets not forget Jesus said ” the word i am telling you are NOT MY WORDS but the words of HIM THAT SENT ME[/B . Think about it Pierre peace and love…………………………………………gene

Gene

did you ever heard the story about the carpenter that as to install a shelf for someone ?

the moral of that story is ;to high,to low ,to late

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2011,04:20)

Quote (942767 @ July 10 2011,10:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2011,05:46) Hi Marty, Were you going to address my last post on this thread?  Or should I just be waiting for the time that you finally find a scripture that actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing?   Hi Mike: The following scripture prohibits Jesus from preexisting as a human being: Quote Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Love in Christ, Marty Oh, I didn't know that Eve was the mother of the myriads of angels.  Or of all the plants and animals too.   Get real, Marty. I'm still waiting for that ONE little scripture.

Hi Mike & Pierre:

I said that the scripture prohibits Jesus from pre-existing his birth into this world as a human being

And so what say you?  Is this true or false?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Marty,

No, Jesus was NOT a human being before he became flesh. He was existing in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being, remember?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2011,17:39)

this is very good well explain truth in scriptures is seen here,

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2011,07:18)

Quote (942767 @ July 10 2011,11:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2011,05:46) Hi Marty, Were you going to address my last post on this thread?  Or should I just be waiting for the time that you finally find a scripture that actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing?   Hi Mike: The following scripture prohibits Jesus from preexisting as a human being: Quote Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, You know full well that when we speak of the pre-existence of Jesus, we are not talking about a pre-existent human being but a pre-existent spirit being…right?  The pre-existent spirit being becomes also flesh, as a human being, but wasn't always flesh. Kathi

Hi Kathi:

Do you have a scripture which states that Jesus pre-existed his birth as a spirit being?  If not, you don't have a point.

If you are using John 1:1 as proof of this, the scriptures state that the Word or Greek, Logos, was with God.

Jesus the Human being was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, if he was a spirit being prior to this, please show me how this took place?

And by the scripture that I quoted about Eve being the mother of all living.  It shows without a doubt that he did not pre-exist as a human being.  

And he did not pre-exist as God, because the scripture states that there is but “One God”, and John 1:1 states that In the begining was the Word and Word was withGod, and so, if you are indicating that the Word was Jesus, he did not pre-exist as God since he was “with God”, and then the verse continues and states that the Word was God, and so if this is Jesus, then you are saying that there is two Gods, or just how do you figure that the Word was with God and Word was God.

And the scripture states “For God so love the world that he gave His Only Begotten Son…” and then states when Jesus was to receive the Holy Spirit, God speaking saying “this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”.  And this indicates to me that God was speaking of the Son that was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and not begotten some other way.

And so, you and those who teach that Jesus pre-existed as a “spirit being” is speculation unless you have a scripture which states that he did.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 12 2011,12:12)

Marty, No, Jesus was NOT a human being before he became flesh.  He was existing in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being, remember?

Hi Mike:

This is speculation because the scripture in Philippians does not state that “he existed in the form of God” before he became a human being.

You are you not adding something to the scripture?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

The following scripture prohibits Jesus from preexisting as a human being: Quote   Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

One question is this includes materialized angels ?angels,animals ,ect

OR IS IT ONLY HUMANS OFSPRING?

so please let me know what you understand by that scripture

Pierre

[942767]

Hi Mike:

Here is the scripture:

Quote

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:   Phl 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  This refers back to the “mind of Christ Jesus”, and so, he was in the “form of God” as Christ Jesus, and he was not Christ Jesus until he was born into this world. Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:   Phl 2:8   And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

There is nothing here which states that he was in the form of God before he became a human being

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 12 2011,12:42)

Marty Quote The following scripture prohibits Jesus from preexisting as a human being: Quote   Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.   One question is this includes materialized angels ?angels,animals ,ect OR IS IT ONLY HUMANS OFSPRING? so please let me know what you understand by that scripture Pierre

Hi Pierre:

If you will read what I said, it will answer your question.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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