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Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2011,13:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2011,20:16) Quote (942767 @ July 04 2011,19:32) Hi Pierre: Why don't you tell me what he is saying by those scriptures?
Here, let me!
Paul is telling those of us who aren't blinded by the god of this age that Jesus was the first creature God ever created in the beginning. And after creating His firstborn, God proceeded to create everything else in heaven and on earth THROUGH His firstborn.
Pretty simple, really.
thanks Mike well said
Pierre
Hi Pierre:If the blind lead the blind, both will fall in the ditch.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 05 2011,18:39) Hi Mike: And so, Jesus is the first creature ever created by God?
Uh…………YEAH!He is the beginning of the creation by God. (Rev 3:14)
He is the firstborn of all creation. (Col 1:15)
God brought him forth as the first of His works. (Prov 8:22)
His origins are from ancient times. (Micah 5:2)
Shall I go on?
peace,
mikeQuote (942767 @ July 05 2011,18:50) If the blind lead the blind, both will fall in the ditch.
Fortunately for both me and Pierre, it is the scriptures that lead us. I'm quite sure the written word of God is not “blind”.Marty, remember that the man who originally spoke what you quoted is the same man who said, “I came down from heaven”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2011,11:58) Quote (942767 @ July 05 2011,18:50) If the blind lead the blind, both will fall in the ditch.
Fortunately for both me and Pierre, it is the scriptures that lead us. I'm quite sure the written word of God is not “blind”.Marty, remember that the man who originally spoke what you quoted is the same man who said, “I came down from heaven”.
Hi Mike:Yes, he did come down from heaven, as it is written
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty!
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.This Scripture is meant Spiritual because Almighty Father is one with Jesus in what they believe. Jesus speaks what the Father wants Him to.
While John 1:18 that Jesus seen His Father in Heaven, where He came from….
Peace IreneQuote (942767 @ July 05 2011,19:06) Yes, he did come down from heaven,
Okay Marty,One down, many to go!
Everything in heaven and on earth was created through him. In fact, not one thing that exists came into existence without him.
Do you also agree with these scriptures like you did with the other one?
Quote (942767 @ July 06 2011,18:50) Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2011,13:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2011,20:16) Quote (942767 @ July 04 2011,19:32) Hi Pierre: Why don't you tell me what he is saying by those scriptures?
Here, let me!Paul is telling those of us who aren't blinded by the god of this age that Jesus was the first creature God ever created in the beginning. And after creating His firstborn, God proceeded to create everything else in heaven and on earth THROUGH His firstborn.
Pretty simple, really.
thanks Mike well said
Pierre
Hi Pierre:If the blind lead the blind, both will fall in the ditch.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyQuote Hi Pierre: If the blind lead the blind, both will fall in the ditch.
this is not the way to answer to the ones who answer your request;
Quote Why don't you tell me what he is saying by those scriptures?[/ now the scriptures were very clear COL 1,15-17 and yet you refuse to answer and call us bind??this is strange
Pierre
Hi Pierre:
You say:
Quote now the scriptures were very clear COL 1,15-17 and yet you refuse to answer and call us bind??this is strange Well, if they are very clear, tell me what they mean to you without Mike's interference. I did not ask Mike for his opinion. I asked you.
I know what they mean, and they don't mean what Mike has stated.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2011,13:12) Quote (942767 @ July 04 2011,18:59) Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Here in verse 10 above God is speaking to His Son telling him that he “founded” the heavens and the earth in the beginning
This is Paul speaking of God………..not Jesus. But even if you were right, and it was Jesus who laid the foundations of the earth, then Jesus would have had to BEEN THERE in order to do that.So I don't get what you're trying to say, because you are making OUR case for us.
Hi Mike:You wanted to know how Jesus knew that he had glory with the Father upon the completion of his ministry on earth, and I told you that God told him about it.
The scriptures that I quoted from Hebrews show God speaking to His Son telling him, “And thou Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth…”, and no, I am not making your case for you. You don't have a case. Why would God have to tell him about this if he was there with him from the beginning. He would have already been aware of this without anyone telling him. He is the “basis for the whole of creation”. All things were made by him and for him and without him was nothing made that was made.
Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he(God) made the worlds;
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2011,11:56) Quote (942767 @ July 05 2011,18:39) Hi Mike: And so, Jesus is the first creature ever created by God?
Uh…………YEAH!He is the beginning of the creation by God. (Rev 3:14)
He is the firstborn of all creation. (Col 1:15)
God brought him forth as the first of His works. (Prov 8:22)
His origins are from ancient times. (Micah 5:2)
Shall I go on?
peace,
mike
Ok. Mike:Here are some scriptures that may help you figure this out:
Quote Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Quote 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Quote Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Quote Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Quote Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 06 2011,18:37) You don't have a case. Why would God have to tell him about this if he was there with him from the beginning. He would have already been aware of this without anyone telling him. He is the “basis for the whole of creation”. All things were made by him and for him and without him was nothing made that was made.
Marty,This is hogwash! Why would anyone in their right mind read words that say all things in heaven and earth were created through Jesus, AGREE with those words, but then insist that Jesus wasn't there to even have all things created through him?
Do you really think “THROUGH WHOM (“whom” here indicates a person) the ages were created” means Jesus was the non-existent “basis for creation”? What does “basis for creation” even mean?
Scripture surely doesn't say “Jesus was the basis for creation”, does it? What SCRIPTURE says is that ALL THING IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH WERE CREATED THROUGH JESUS, AND NOT ONE THING WAS CREATED WITHOUT HIM.
I believe SCRIPTURES, Marty. You are free to believe whatever spirit it is that is lying to you.
Quote (942767 @ July 06 2011,19:00) Ok. Mike: Here are some scriptures that may help you figure this out:
I'll tell you what, Marty: Take each of those scriptures you quoted, and ONE AT A TIME, explain to me how they prove that Jesus didn't pre-exist.Quote (942767 @ July 07 2011,07:23) Hi Pierre: You say:
Quote now the scriptures were very clear COL 1,15-17 and yet you refuse to answer and call us bind??this is strange Well, if they are very clear, tell me what they mean to you without Mike's interference. I did not ask Mike for his opinion. I asked you.
I know what they mean, and they don't mean what Mike has stated.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyGe 3:15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”this is Christ announced to come and have victory;
Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.If Jesus did not come from above then he could not do what it says in verse 13 and 14
and I mean come down from God and be born as a man and die for our sins;God as supplied the sacrifice it was his son;Abraham and Issac his son what a shadow of the things to come,
this is why God send the angel with the power Gabriel to fix all thing to come through as per the word of God that he had spoken long ago.
In the verses Paul explain who is Christ and were he comes from;
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.he explain as well that God as made all things trough him and so God wanted that even he would be the first being resurrected from the dead and resurrected with a live given power because of his sacrifice,
and so Christ is first in all things ,
1)first born of creation
2)first to be resurrected from the dead with everlasting live and incorruptibility,3)the first of many brothers
I have read you comment to Mike and you do not say anything beside quoting scriptures that reinforces what Paul explain about Christ in many of his letters
Christ himself says that came down from heaven and that he will go back.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2011,13:42) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2011,19:00) Ok. Mike: Here are some scriptures that may help you figure this out:
I'll tell you what, Marty: Take each of those scriptures you quoted, and ONE AT A TIME, explain to me how they prove that Jesus didn't pre-exist.
No, Mike:If you want to preach that he pre-existed, then you prove to us that he did.
He was foreordained and was to be made manifest by the Father in his timing. That is what the scriptures state.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 07 2011,12:00) Here are some scriptures that may help you figure this out: Quote Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Quote 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Quote Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Quote Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Quote Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty………….Right On Brother. The problem they just can't understand it because their eyes are blinded to it, and because they refuse to see the truth God has sent unto them a Spirit of deception in order for them to believe the LIE, about Jesus' preexistence as a sentinel being. Preexistence and Trinitarians are both in the same Boat even thought they try to act like they are not. As far as Mike saying “HOGWASH” goes pay it no mind he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about Brother. You and I and Paladin and Istari and others in times pas Have presented it right we have laid these Pearls before them but true to scripture they trample them under and turn and try to rend us also. While they drift from one deception to another ever learning but never coming unto the truth just as it says. IMOpeace and love to you and your Marty…………………..gene
Quote (942767 @ July 06 2011,19:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2011,13:12) Quote (942767 @ July 04 2011,18:59) Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Here in verse 10 above God is speaking to His Son telling him that he “founded” the heavens and the earth in the beginning
This is Paul speaking of God………..not Jesus. But even if you were right, and it was Jesus who laid the foundations of the earth, then Jesus would have had to BEEN THERE in order to do that.So I don't get what you're trying to say, because you are making OUR case for us.
The scriptures that I quoted from Hebrews show God speaking to His Son telling him, “And thou Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth…”, and no, I am not making your case for you.
Hi MartyI am glad that you believe it is the Father speaking to Jesus in Hebrews 1:10 for the context says you are right.
However, you say the Father God told the Son that “he laid the foundation of the earth” but then you say he wasn't there to do it?
BTW you only quoted part of the verse…
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning “hast laid the foundation of the earth”; and “the heavens are the works of thine hands“: Heb 1:10
So you want us to believe the Father God told Jesus that “he laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens were the work of Jesus hands”, but Jesus hands wasn't there to do it?
Man I guess this is proof that people can make the scriptures say whatever they want.
WJ
WJ………….Look up the word “THOU” used there it give seven different types of definitions there in strong s , and in the KJ the so it say is not even in it. Check it out and get back to us brother. It is talking about GOD the FATHER WJ Not Jesus laying anything imo.
peace and love………………………………….gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2011,09:19) So you want us to believe the Father God told Jesus that “he laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens were the work of Jesus hands”, but Jesus hands wasn't there to do it? Good point, Keith.Quote (942767 @ July 07 2011,06:52)
No, Mike:If you want to preach that he pre-existed, then you prove to us that he did.
I understand your statement to mean that not one of the scriptures you quoted prohibits the pre-existence of Jesus……………and that you know it.Quote (942767 @ July 07 2011,06:52)
He was foreordained and was to be made manifest by the Father in his timing. That is what the scriptures state.
You're not making the same mistake Gene made, are you? You do know that “made manifest” does NOT mean “came into being”, right? “Made manifest” refers to something that already existed, though we couldn't see it, being made so that we CAN now see it.The angel that spoke to Balaam was made manifest to him AFTER it was already made manifest to the donkey. This does not mean the angel didn't exist until Balaam was able to see it, right?
So yes, Jesus, the firstborn of all creation and the one through whom God made the ages was foreordained to a special purpose from ancient days. That doesn't mean he didn't exist, right? (After all, the angels in Rev who will hold back the winds are already foreordained for this task, but it doesn't mean that they don't already exist.)
And Jesus was at a later time made manifest to those of the earth. That doesn't mean he didn't exist prior to being made so that mankind could see him, right?
Marty, let me know if you ever find a scripture that actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing, okay? If that ever happens, we'll stack that one scripture up against our 50+ scriptures that clearly teach the pre-existence of Jesus.
peace to you brother,
mikeQuote (942767 @ July 07 2011,06:52) If you want to preach that he pre-existed, then you prove to us that he did.
Well, he came DOWN from heaven. And he had glory alongside God before the creation of the world.There's much more to add, but that should be enough proof for now.
So let's turn the tables: If YOU want to teach that Jesus DIDN'T pre-exist, then YOU prove to us that he DIDN'T.
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