Preexistence

[942767]

Quote (Pastry @ July 02 2011,12:52)

hey Mike!  Need some help/  Ok Marty!   You gave good scriptures in John 5….. lets look at them, especially verse 30, 36, 37 and 38 all say that he was sent….. where was He sent from.   In order for Jesus to say that, he must have known where He was sent from.  do you know?  Not pre- ordained, but was literally there, in order to say so.  If I say my father sent me from some where you would know what I meant, right?  So why is it so hard for you to know where Jesus was sent from? Peace irene

Hi Mrs:

When Jesus was saying he was sent by the Father, he is speaking of being sent into the world in his earthly ministry. He already existed as a man who was born under the Law of Moses, but we see at the age of 30 he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and was sent into the world.

Here is what Jesus says in John 17:

Quote

Jhn 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. Jhn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2011,13:54)

Marty Quote Jesus became a living soul when he was born into this world are you sure you can prove that ?? Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Was he breathing when he was born an infant? And was he born to parents who were obedient to the Law of Moses?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2011,14:11)

Marty Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. Psa 110:2   The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.   is this Zion on earth or in heaven? in rev 14;1 Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; if you do not believe Paul then you are on you own ,Christ ad glory in heaven prior to his birth on earth because that is the reason of his ability to do and be all things but he is not God but as Paul says IT PLEASED THE FATHER …………………………..OVER ALL CREATION . Pierre

Hi Pierre:

I believe the Apostle Paul, but I don't believe that he said anything about Jesus pre-existing his birth into this world.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2011,14:14)

Marty Quote And there are many other scriptures in the OT such as Isaiah 9, 11, 53 for example.  And this in the NT: all those scriptures you quote are only proving that Christ was who he says he was the son of the living God, Pierre

True

[Pastry]

Marty!
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Where did His father sent Him from? his Father is in Heaven!!!!

Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Again the same thing, the Father sent Him from where?

Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Here Jesus tells us that only He has seen the Father

Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Jhn 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:41 ¶ The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Jhn 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Jhn 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before.

.

Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Jhn 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Jhn 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jhn 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jhn 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus came doswn from Heaven and that is where God sent Him from..Scriptures say so…..not my words, but Jesus words….Are YOU going to believe Him???

Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2011,18:13)

Hi Mike: The question you say is: Quote And the question is why JESUS, (not God who foreknew everything), would have referred to a glory HE HIMSELF HAD before the creation of the world. God told him that he was foreordained, and about the glory that he had with him from the beginning.

So God told the PERSON Jesus that the PERSON Jesus had glory before? Is that it?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Pastry @ July 01 2011,19:52)

hey Mike! Need some help/ Ok

Hi Irene,

Yeah, help away!

[terraricca]

Marty

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.NIV

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:KJV

Quote

Hi Pierre: I believe the Apostle Paul, but I don't believe that he said anything about Jesus pre-existing his birth into this world.

could you just pointing out what Paul was saying in those scriptures above ?

Pierre

[Pastry]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2011,13:22)

Quote (Pastry @ July 01 2011,19:52) hey Mike!  Need some help/  Ok Hi Irene, Yeah, help away!

i am trying too, waiting for Marty to reply to my last post…..

Peace and Love Irene

[942767]

Quote (Pastry @ July 03 2011,11:40)

Marty!   Jhn 5:30   I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.   Where did His father sent Him from?  his Father is in Heaven!!!! Jhn 5:36   But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.   Again the same thing, the Father sent Him from where? Jhn 5:37   And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.   Here Jesus tells us that only He has seen the Father Jhn 6:32   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.   Jhn 6:33   For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.   Jhn 6:34   Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.   Jhn 6:35   And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.   Jhn 6:36   But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.   Jhn 6:37   All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.   Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.   Jhn 6:39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.   Jhn 6:40   And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.   Jhn 6:41 ¶ The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.   Jhn 6:42   And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?   Jhn 6:43   Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.   Jhn 6:44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.   Jhn 6:45   It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.   Jhn 6:46   Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.   Jhn 6:47   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.   Jhn 6:48   I am that bread of life.   Jhn 6:49   Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.   Jhn 6:50   This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.   Jhn 6:51   I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.   Jhn 6:52   The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?   Jhn 6:53   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.   Jhn 6:54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.   Jhn 6:55   For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.   Jhn 6:56   He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.   Jhn 6:57   As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.   Jhn 6:58   This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.   Jhn 6:59   These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.   Jhn 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?   Jhn 6:61   When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?   Jhn 6:62   [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before. .   Jhn 6:66   From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.   Jhn 6:67   Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?   Jhn 6:68   Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.   Jhn 6:69   And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.   Jhn 6:70   Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?   Jhn 6:71   He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.   Jesus came doswn from Heaven and that is where God sent Him from..Scriptures say so…..not my words, but Jesus words….Are YOU going to believe Him??? Peace Irene

Hi Mrs:

He said he came down from heaven, and he did. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, and his spirit came down from heaven as he learned to apply the Word of God in his daily life. It was God within him that he was obeying.

But he was sent into the World by God when he received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and sent into the world in his eartly ministry. He was already on the earth when this happened.

When he was sent into the world he said the following:

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2011,13:20)

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2011,18:13) Hi Mike: The question you say is: Quote And the question is why JESUS, (not God who foreknew everything), would have referred to a glory HE HIMSELF HAD before the creation of the world. God told him that he was foreordained, and about the glory that he had with him from the beginning. So God told the PERSON Jesus that the PERSON Jesus had glory before?  Is that it?

Hi Mike:

Try these scriptures to see if you can gain some understanding:

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Here in verse 10 above God is speaking to His Son telling him that he “founded” the heavens and the earth in the beginning.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 03 2011,13:32)

Marty Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.NIV Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:KJV Quote Hi Pierre: I believe the Apostle Paul, but I don't believe that he said anything about Jesus pre-existing his birth into this world. could you just pointing out what Paul was saying in those scriptures above ? Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Why don't you tell me what he is saying by those scriptures?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

Marty…………You have it absolutely right , Mike can't figure who Jesus “fellows” being are, because he think Jesus was a preexisting Angel posing as a Man in disguise. He simply can not see that God took from Mankind a pure human being and perfected Him and elevated Him to a preplanned position he had in mind for him before the world began, because of His obedience to GOD this (Son of Man) was elevated to the position he now has. Trinitarian and Preexistences mind can not absorb that because they are so indoctrinated into their false “MYSTERY RELIGION”>

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 04 2011,18:59)

Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Here in verse 10 above God is speaking to His Son telling him that he “founded” the heavens and the earth in the beginning

This is Paul speaking of God………..not Jesus. But even if you were right, and it was Jesus who laid the foundations of the earth, then Jesus would have had to BEEN THERE in order to do that.

So I don't get what you're trying to say, because you are making OUR case for us.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 04 2011,19:32)

Hi Pierre: Why don't you tell me what he is saying by those scriptures?

Here, let me!  

Paul is telling those of us who aren't blinded by the god of this age that Jesus was the first creature God ever created in the beginning.  And after creating His firstborn, God proceeded to create everything else in heaven and on earth THROUGH His firstborn.

Pretty simple, really.  

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2011,20:16)

Quote (942767 @ July 04 2011,19:32) Hi Pierre: Why don't you tell me what he is saying by those scriptures? Here, let me!   Paul is telling those of us who aren't blinded by the god of this age that Jesus was the first creature God ever created in the beginning.  And after creating His firstborn, God proceeded to create everything else in heaven and on earth THROUGH His firstborn. Pretty simple, really.

thanks Mike

well said

Pierre

[Pastry]

Quote

Hi Mrs: He said he came down from heaven, and he did.  He was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, and his spirit came down from heaven as he learned to apply the Word of God in his daily life.  It was God within him that he was obeying. But he was sent into the World by God when he received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and sent into the world in his eartly ministry.  He was already on the earth when this happened.

Marty!  before Jesus was born of Mary however, He seen his Father.  He was first of all the firstborn of all creation.

Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of   he Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

And He seen His father

Jhn 1:18   No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].  

Your logic is if Jesus says something after He became a man, what He was before, is not so?  Now come on….He said that He came down from heaven to do the will of His Father.  Past tense.,… Not present tense.  Present tense that He did what His Father said to Him.  In order to do so He had to be there.  And since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God He was there as a spirit being, which He is again now, seated a the right hand of His Father.   That is the glory Jesus was talking about when He said this
Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.  

Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………….Jesus said his disciples were from above, now does that mean they can down from heaven above from a preexisting life of some kind. Why do you people just stop with Jesus and discard the rest of what Jesus said about others who were “FROM” ABOVE TOO ?

peace and love…………………………..gene

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2011,13:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2011,20:16) Quote (942767 @ July 04 2011,19:32) Hi Pierre: Why don't you tell me what he is saying by those scriptures? Here, let me!   Paul is telling those of us who aren't blinded by the god of this age that Jesus was the first creature God ever created in the beginning.  And after creating His firstborn, God proceeded to create everything else in heaven and on earth THROUGH His firstborn. Pretty simple, really.   thanks Mike   well said Pierre

Hi Mike:

And so, Jesus is the first creature ever created by God?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (Pastry @ July 05 2011,23:18)

Quote Hi Mrs: He said he came down from heaven, and he did.  He was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, and his spirit came down from heaven as he learned to apply the Word of God in his daily life.  It was God within him that he was obeying. But he was sent into the World by God when he received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and sent into the world in his eartly ministry.  He was already on the earth when this happened. Marty!  before Jesus was born of Mary however, He seen his Father.  He was first of all the firstborn of all creation. Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of   he Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;   And He seen His father Jhn 1:18   No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].   Your logic is if Jesus says something after He became a man, what He was before, is not so?  Now come on….He said that He came down from heaven to do the will of His Father.  Past tense.,… Not present tense.  Present tense that He did what His Father said to Him.  In order to do so He had to be there.  And since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God He was there as a spirit being, which He is again now, seated a the right hand of His Father.   That is the glory Jesus was talking about when He said this Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.   Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Peace Irene

Hi Irene:

No man has seen God at any time. God is invisible. The scripture that you quoted states:

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

In John 14 Jesus states: He who has seen me has seen the Father

We have seen the Father's character through the works of obedience that Jesus did to the Father. Jesus has seen him in this way, and not with his eye. God is love.

Again, God is invisible, but we see him all around us through his creation, and we have seen Him through the life of Jesus.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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