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Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2011,14:21) Quote (942767 @ June 15 2011,19:11) “He had it from the beginning”.
Your doctrine is confusing, Marty. First, you have to imagine that the words “I HAD” refer to something somebody “WILL HAVE” in the future.Then you say “HE had it from the beginning”, when you don't even believe that Jesus WAS a “HE” from the beginning.
HE had it, although HE didn't even exist TO have it.
And don't give me the “thought of him in God's heart” stuff, because it wasn't a thought in God's heart who said “I came down from heaven” or “I had glory before the creation of the world”.
Marty, can't you see that the mish-mashed, illogical way you are jumbling up tenses is exactly the same kind of mish-mashed, illogical, jumbled up crap the Trinitarians try to push on us?
peace,
mike
Hi Mike:You say:
Quote And don't give me the “thought of him in God's heart” stuff, because it wasn't a thought in God's heart who said “I came down from heaven” or “I had glory before the creation of the world”. But that is exactly what I am going to tell you. When Jesus was saying that he came down from heaven, he was already in his earthly ministry. He knew that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of his mother, and he had received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and he was obeying the Word of God, and so, he came down from heaven in those two ways.
He said this:
Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
(And it is what he did in the body that God prepared for him that gives us eternal life, and so he says:)
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
It is what a person does in the body that defines who he is. We can see that he is the Son of God through his works of obedience to God, and God confirmed that what he was speaking through the miracles, and signs and wonders, and by ultimately raising him from the dead, and exalting him as Lord and Christ over all of His creation.
And so, summarizing, the body came down from heaven when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and the spirit of Jesus came down from heaven as the spirit of Jesus was formed within him as he learned to apply the Word of God in his daily life.
Quote Rom 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty………….you have it right, stand firm , Someone here said that Preexistences are half trinitarians and i would say they are 90 % trinitarians, the only difference is they do not believe Jesus was a GOD who preexisted as the trinitarians do, but look at all the rest of ther beliefs and compare them.
Preexistences believe Trinitarians believe.
1..Jesus preexisted his berth. 1. Jesus preexisted his berth
2. Jesus existed before all creation 2. Jesus existed before all creation
3. God through Jesus created everything 3. Jesus created everything
4. Jesus came down from heaven (literally) 4. Jesus came down from heaven
5. Jesus was Morphed into the flesh from heaven 5. Jesus was Morphed into the flesh from heaven
6. Jesus was the ” US” mentioned in Genesis 6. Jesus was the “US” mentioned in Genesis
7. The “I AM” shows the deity of Jesus 7. The “I AM” shows deity of Jesus
8. Jesus was raised a Spirit (Being) 8. Jesus was raised a Spirit (Being)
9. Jesus was first created before all creation 9. Jesus existed before all creation
10.Jesus existed with glory literally before he was born on earth. 10. Jesus existed with Glory before he was born on earth
So what if these trinitarians and Preexistences or Gnostic's differ in some small part they still overall are in the same camp of Idolaters and work endlessly at
SEPARATING JESUS FROM OUR EXACT IDENTITY as a fellow human being who was perfected by God The Father and Glorified by Him a Perfection and Glory he had from God but he never actually recieved it until it came into reality after he came into existence literally after his berth and resurrection.These false teachers create a false image of Jesus making him (separate) FROM THE REST OF HUMANITY. Not understanding Jesus was the first (FROM) Humanity to achieve the Goal God Has for us ALL. He is our Exact Example of What God wants us all to Achieve. He is as He said 84 time “SON of MAN” who came from the Root of Jesse and King David and their offspring just as he said he was. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Marty…………………………….gene
Quote (942767 @ June 17 2011,07:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2011,14:21) Quote (942767 @ June 15 2011,19:11) “He had it from the beginning”.
Your doctrine is confusing, Marty. First, you have to imagine that the words “I HAD” refer to something somebody “WILL HAVE” in the future.Then you say “HE had it from the beginning”, when you don't even believe that Jesus WAS a “HE” from the beginning.
HE had it, although HE didn't even exist TO have it.
And don't give me the “thought of him in God's heart” stuff, because it wasn't a thought in God's heart who said “I came down from heaven” or “I had glory before the creation of the world”.
Marty, can't you see that the mish-mashed, illogical way you are jumbling up tenses is exactly the same kind of mish-mashed, illogical, jumbled up crap the Trinitarians try to push on us?
peace,
mike
Hi Mike:You say:
Quote And don't give me the “thought of him in God's heart” stuff, because it wasn't a thought in God's heart who said “I came down from heaven” or “I had glory before the creation of the world”. But that is exactly what I am going to tell you.
Marty,WAS IT the “thought of Jesus in God's heart” who said “I came down from heaven”? Or was it the PERSON of Jesus who said that?
WAS IT the “thought of Jesus in God's heart” who said “I HAD glory before the creation of the world”? Or was it the PERSON of Jesus who said that?
Just answer DIRECTLY, because the scriptures you list don't do anything to change the correct answers of the above. And your confusing interpretation of what they mean (which is a necessity for keeping your doctrine) shed much darkness and confusion, but no light.
peace,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 17 2011,08:40)
look at all the rest of ther beliefs and compare them.1..Jesus preexisted his berth. 1. Jesus preexisted his berth
2. Jesus existed before all creation 2. Jesus existed before all creation
3. God through Jesus created everything 3. Jesus created everything
4. Jesus came down from heaven (literally) 4. Jesus came down from heaven
5. Jesus was Morphed into the flesh from heaven 5. Jesus was Morphed into the flesh from heaven
6. Jesus was the ” US” mentioned in Genesis 6. Jesus was the “US” mentioned in Genesis
7. The “I AM” shows the deity of Jesus 7. The “I AM” shows deity of Jesus
8. Jesus was raised a Spirit (Being) 8. Jesus was raised a Spirit (Being)
9. Jesus was first created before all creation 9. Jesus existed before all creation
10.Jesus existed with glory literally before he was born on earth.
Gene,You post is slanted. I could list many more things than that about which YOU agree with the Trinitarians……………what would that prove?
Plus, you are inaccurate about my beliefs, so I'll correct them:1. Jesus pre-existed his becoming flesh.
2. Jesus is a part OF creation, and therefore couldn't exist BEFORE creation, although he did exist before all OTHER things were created THROUGH him.
3. I and scripture agree with this one.
4. I and scripture agree with this one.
5. Jesus, who was existing in the form of God, was made into the likeness of a human being.
6. I agree.
7. YHWH means “I will be what I will be”. The “I AM” thing in John is nothing more that Jesus saying he existed before Abraham existed, and not that he is God. That verse is correctly translated as “Before Abraham existed, I have been”.
8. Jesus was raised from the dead in the body he died in. 40 days later, that body was transformed into the spiritual body he now has in heaven.
9. Jesus WAS the first OF all creation, so therefore couldn't have existed BEFORE creation began, since he is a part OF creation.
10. I and scripture agree with this one.Gene, copy this post and keep it somewhere in your computer. That way you can reference before you decide to post false claims about what I and/or others believe.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 17 2011,08:40)
He is as He said 84 time “SON of MAN” who came from the Root of Jesse
Now there's the Gene we all know and love! The one who must add the word “IN” into John 1:14 and the one who must add the word “FROM” into the scriptures referenced above.Jesus IS both the Root AND the Branch of David, Gene. It is never said that he is “FROM” the Root of David.
mike
Mike…………So Do you believe Jesus was from the root of Jesse or not?, and if you don't believe prove it, and also was David not come from the root of Jesse also, so SIMPLE COMMON SENSE WOULD TELL YOU IF JESSE WAS FROM THE ROOT OF JESSE AND SO WAS DAVID AND THIS TIES INTO JESUS AS SCRIPTURE SAY IT DOES THAT JESUS IS THE ROOT AND OFFSPRING OF DAVID. BOTH THE ROOT AND OFFSPRING MEANING THE DECEDENT OF BOTH JESSE (AND) KING DAVID.
This might help you though i highly doubt it!,
Isa 11:10….> And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people: to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
In case that is not clear enough for you here is what Paul says.
Romans 15:12 ….> and again, Isiah says, There shall be a
root of Jesse, and he shall rise to reign over the Gentiles: in him shall the Gentiles trust.So if we conclude Jesus as a root of Jesse is he not also the root and offspring of David too. Mike bottom line is you refuse to accept any scripture that goes against your self made Dogmas , you simply can not except truth no matter how many scriptures are posted to you. You and your Preexistences friends are as much wrong as you counter part Trinitarians are you all stem from the same point of view and that being that Jesus preexisted his berth on this earth and his identity is SEPARATE from ours. You preexistences and Trinitarians are in the same camp with these beliefs . IMO
Peace and love………………………………gene
Mike………..As i said before trinitarians and Preexistences and Gnostic's are all in the same boat they all serve to SEPARATE Jesus from our exact Identity, as a born into existence at his berth human being , who God perfected and raised from the dead to eternal life , the first MAN from mankind to achieve that goal, the first of of many from humanity to achieve that ultimate Goal God has in mind for us all. You people making Jesus Different from the rest of Humanity is not only trashing the word and work of God but also the words and work of Jesus as A SON OF MAN .
Like Paladin said just a few percent can through the whole truth off, and you and you trinitarian friends have achieved this not only here but in all Christendom. Mike can't you see making Jesus different distorts the true connection we have with him, by saying his was a God or demigod or super angel who lived with eternal life before his life on earth gives him so much advantage over all other human beings that we can not compare ourself with him and there by can not find any identity with him on a human level because of all those advantages, it diminishes the work of God (IN) humanity and Separates us from Christ Jesus. Mike you are a part of that distorting work and don't even realize it.
peace and love……………………………..gene
hi Gene,
You believe? …1. Jesus pre-existed his becoming flesh. ??
From what you said in the past, I would have not gathered that; could you explain?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd j……….No i don't believe Jesus preexisted His berth on earth, I was just showing Mike how the preexistences and Trinitarians beliefs were the same thing in many ways. I absolutely ( DO NOT) believe Jesus was alive before his berth on earth, He was only in the Plan and foreknowledge of GOD. His glory was a predestined Glory and he never had it until he was born died and resurrected to that glory , that God has in mind for all of mankind. He was the First born from creation to achieve that Glory of eternal life. Jesus said he was alive and died and will die no more , he did not say He was once alive and them was morphed into a human being and then died and was re-morphed back into another preexistent being. No brother i do not believe any of the lies the Trinitarians and Preexistences spew out of their corrupted hearts .
peace and lvoe to you and yours Ed j…………………………………gene
Hi Gene,
Thanks for the clarification! … that's what I gathered you believed.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2011,08:06) Mike…………So Do you believe Jesus was from the root of Jesse or not?,
Absolutely, for he is ALSO called “the Branch” of David. And a branch comes from the root, right? So according to the flesh (as it is often worded in scripture), Jesus is “from” the root of Jesse, as he is also the branch.Now the question is: Gene, do YOU believe that Jesus WAS the actual ROOT of Jesse also? Because the scriptures say that not only was Jesus the BRANCH of Jesse, (which means “FROM the root”), but he was also the ROOT of Jesse.
Try to take ALL of the scriptures into account, Gene. Oh, and try to do that WITHOUT adding in your own words. Because as you said, Paladin has shown how scripture can be significantly changed by altering only ONE single word. You are significantly altering the scriptures by adding the word “from” in this case, and “in” in the case of John 1:14.
And if the scriptures you base your understanding on are the ones you yourself have altered, how could you expect to know the TRUTH of the actual scriptures?
The “Root AND Branch” teaching is explained by Jesus himself in Matthew 22:41-45. Many, like you, were expecting the Messiah to be ONLY the Branch of David. Jesus explained that if the Messiah was not also the ROOT of David, how is it that David calls him “my Lord”?
It all fits together……………….but ONLY if you let the UNALTERED scriptures be your guide. Thus far, you have been lead by your own wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us”. And even your hero Paladin has tried to set you straight on this misconception of yours.
peace,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2011,08:48) His glory was a predestined Glory and he never had it until he was born died and resurrected to that glory
Gene says: Jesus never HAD his glory until he was resurrected to that glory.Jesus says: “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
Hmmmm…………..who to believe – Gene or Jesus?
Mike ………..Jesus had that glory alright but he never received it until He was raised from the dead and NOW (HAS) THAT GLORY. Produce Any Just one Scripture that illustrates any Glory of a Preexistence Jesus or Super being who you say was Morphed in the man Jesus. Their is not one is there Mike. Have you ever wonder why? Not only that but so will man in general have that Glory also. Jesus it say is the First one to have recieved “THAT” Glory at this time. Your separatist religion has blinded you from seeing that Mike. The glory Jesus had before his berth was a planned glory by God before he ever existed. IMO
peace and love……………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2011,15:43)
Mike ………..Jesus had that glory alright but he never received it until He was raised from the dead
This is mish-mashed, illogical, nonsensical English, Gene.How can any sensible person say “He HAD that glory but he didn't really have until later”?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2011,15:43)
The glory Jesus had before his berth was a planned glory by God before he ever existed.See? You did it again. He HAD glory BEFORE he even existed to HAVE it? How is that suppose to be understandable to those of us who DON'T live in Bizzaro World?
You've given me an idea for a new thread.
Hi Mike:
You ask:
Quote WAS IT the “thought of Jesus in God's heart” who said “I came down from heaven”? Or was it the PERSON of Jesus who said that? When Jesus said I came down from heaven, was he speaking of his body, soul, and spirit?
And, I already explained to you how he, of course the person, said he had the glory. It was a done deal
Love in Christ, Marty
Mike……….the one in bizzaro land here is trinitarians and and their brothers the Preexistences. So in your bizarro world the Word was FLESH right, tell us are your words Flesh too, or do they come from within a flesh being “YOU”> The Glory Jesus was given existed in the Plan and will of GOD way before he ever existed as any kind of being. To show even more how Bizarre you guys logic is , you not even smart enough to realize that if John meant the Word “WORD” to mean Jesus he simply would have written Jesus there. Now can you guy's in your Bizarre world even comprehend that?. God and His words are one and the Same Just as you and your words are also one and the same.
Now if you don't believe that then you don't believe what Jesus said , “whatsoever a man speaks comes from his heart and that is what defiles the man”. now in you Bizarre World that would not be true because you believe God and his words are different and you and your words are different, funny Jesus did not look at it that way now did he. “So a man speaks so he (IS)”. When God gave us his commandments that was the mind of God being expressed to us through WORD, those proceeded from his heart also, just as your words proceed from you heart, no difference at all.
Why do you think Jesus said the “WORD” He spoke were not “HIS WORDS” But the WORDS of Him that “SENT HIM”> The Word was indeed with GOD and WAS INDEED GOD, Just as John wrote it. Nothing bizarre about it , what is bizarre is how you trinitarians and Preexistences twist up those simple and plain word, because of your predispose ideologies you all learned a long time ago and never corrected it. IMO
peace and love………………………………………gene
Quote (942767 @ June 20 2011,10:10)
When Jesus said I came down from heaven, was he speaking of his body, soul, and spirit?
Soul and spirit, Marty. “A body you have prepared for me”.Quote (942767 @ June 20 2011,10:10)
And, I already explained to you how he, of course the person, said he had the glory. It was a done deal
No, you said he already had the glory FROM GOD'S POINT OF VIEW. I agree that from the point of view of God, who can tell the end from the beginning, it was a “done deal” and could rightly be called the glory Jesus HAD – but only by God.What I want to know is how, FROM JESUS' POINT OF VIEW, he ALREADY HAD glory before the creation of the world.
You can dream of the glory YOU are predestined to have someday. And from GOD'S POINT OF VIEW, you may have already HAD that glory. But from YOUR OWN POINT OF VIEW, you would never refer to the glory you might SOMEDAY HAVE as glory you “HAD alongside God before the creation of the world”.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2011,12:14) This is mish-mashed, illogical, nonsensical English, Gene. How can any sensible person say “He HAD that glory but he didn't really have until later”?
Yeah Gene.Until you can explain this and other things, why should anyone take what you say as being true.
If you don't understand your own doctrine, or if scripture contradicts it, then you haven't got your act together have you?
Hence part of what may be a mystery to you – why no one is taking notice of your doctrine, (with the exception of those who already held that belief).
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 17 2011,06:37) T8……..The Logos IS the very expression of GOD and His words are with him.
If that is the case, then is it not possible in your thinking that the Logos was given birth or at some stage was WITH God? Because if that was possible, then God making everything through Christ as well as the Logos would make sense and you wouldn't have the difficulty of having to explain everything as an attribute of God and resort to the glory he had with God before the world as some kind of memory thingy.Justin Martyr (ca. 150 A.D) put it like this gene:
he was begotten out of the Father by an act of will, just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word, yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word in us, when we give it out, and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled, but remains the same, and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter.
or this
And God, the Father of the cosmos, who is the perfect intelligence, the truth. And the Word, being His Son, came to us, having put on flesh, revealing both himself and the Father, giving to us in himself resurrection from the dead, and eternal life afterwards. And this is Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Lord.
and again
But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten, there is no name given. For by whatever name He be called, He has as His elder the person who gives Him the name. But these words, Father, and God, and Creator, and Lord, and Master, are not names, but appellations derived from His good deeds and functions. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word, who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God's ordering all things through Him;
as well as
Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this kind are concerned, but not concerning the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son, who came forth from Him,
Just some information on Justin Martyr.
This (what follows) is what put me off reading the Early Church Fathers. You'll see it get's worse and worse as time goes on as you read it…
Taken from here:
http://www.bible.ca/H-hell.htm
150 AD Justin Martyr: and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII)
150 AD Justin Martyr: For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII)
197 AD Tertullian “After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending” (Apology 18:3).
197 AD Tertullian “Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility” (Apology , 44:12-13).
212 AD Hippolytus “Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them” (Against the Greeks 3).
226 AD Minucius Felix “I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them” (Octavius 34:12-5:3).
252 AD Cyprian of Carthage “Oh, what a day that will be, and how great when it comes, dearest brethren! When the Lord … [will] cast into hell evildoers and will condemn our persecutors to the eternal fire and to punishing flame!” (Letters 58:10).
252 AD Cyprian of Carthage “An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life” (To Demetrian 24).
The Bible says…
'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God; he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love.
thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart, and out of thy soul, and out of all thine understanding, and out of all thy strength — this is the first command; and the second is like it, this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
The Apostasy started early I think.
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