Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

Quote (942767 @ May 30 2011,08:58)

Hi Mike: No, we did not already exist with a divine nature, and neither did Jesus.  He was born into this world and infant just like all of humanity, but unlike all of us who were born of the sperm of man, he did not go astray

How do you make this scripture go away?

Philippians 2:6-11 (New International Version)
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
  did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
  by taking the very nature of a servant,
  being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,

Philippians 2:6-11 (New American Standard Bible)
6 who, although He (A)existed in the (B)form of God, ©did not regard equality with God a thing to be [a]grasped, 7 but (D)emptied Himself, taking the form of a (E)bond-servant, and (F)being made in the likeness of men.
He existed with divine nature then after emptying himself, he took on flesh nature.

Now make that go away because it definitely stands in your way because it first says that he existed and then with what nature. What excuse do you have to nullify this?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2011,14:03)

We would never say, “Marty partook in human nature”, because you have never been anything but human nature, right?

That is a good point and another indicator that Jesus existed with another nature namely divine because he partook of human nature. Likewise we can partake of divine nature.

To partake means to join in and we generally do not consider that we have joined mankind, rather that we are mankind. But one day we will join the heavenly ranks with a body like his.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……….Lets say you are (NOW) a partaker of the Divine Nature as all Christians should be able to say right? Now say you died and someone later were to say (ABOUT) You, though t8 existed with the divine Nature of GOD , he made himself of no reputation but took upon himself the nature of a man or servant , He did not seek (because he had the divine nature) to be equal with GOD. Does that make you a preexistent being before you exist on earth even though you had the divine Nature of GOD (IN) You while you were alive on earth?, NO IT DOES NOT, brother, IMO

peace and love to you and yours T8……………………………………..gene

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,13:30)

Quote (942767 @ May 31 2011,10:25) Hi Mike: He existed in the heart of the Father, but not as a sentient person until he was born into this world. But even with me who in human nature did not exist before my birth into this world, God had forseen that I would exist. Exist, yes, foreordained, yes, but no, not as a sentient person.  A sentient person being someone that has a mind, a will, and emotions. Love in Christ, Marty Hmmmm………….that's quite some “existence” eh?    No mind.  No will.  No emotions.  Are you sure that could qualify as “existing”?  Seems a bit of a stretch to me. It's amazing that Jesus even remembered the glory HE HAD alongside God before the creation of the world, what with no mind and all.  It's even more amazing that after living with a mind and a will and emotions, that he asked to go back to the glory of a mindless, will-less, emotionless “existence” in the heart of the Father. Good thing for us that God exalted him to the highest honors available, instead of granting his request, huh?   Marty, your claims are transparent.  We can easily see them as the claims of a man who knows what the scriptures teach, but can't fit those teachings around his own “truth”, and so will go to humorously illogical lengths to align what the scriptures actually teach to his own doctrine. It's sad, really. peace, mike

Hi Mike:

God calls those things that are not as though they were, and so, in the heart of God, he did exist.

Jesus said “Abraham desired to see my day and he saw it and was glad” and in 1 Peter 1 we have scripture which states that Jesus was foreordained and was manifest in God's timing.

And so, why can't you just leave it at that. There is no scripture which states that Jesus existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world, but if you want to teach this doctrine, then it is up to you to support it with scripture.

I can support what I teach with scripture, and I am glad that you acknowledge that I know the scriptures, and also, I am praying that God will correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word. He has corrected me many a time, but so far, he has not shown me any thing about Jesus pre-existing his birth into this world as a sentient person.

If he does, I will be the first to come to you and say “Mike, your were right”, but so far that hasn't happened.

Maybe you think it is sad that God hasn't shown me that what you are teaching about this matter is the truth, but maybe He hasn't because He cannot confirm a lie.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ June 01 2011,19:55)

Quote (942767 @ May 30 2011,08:58) Hi Mike: No, we did not already exist with a divine nature, and neither did Jesus.  He was born into this world and infant just like all of humanity, but unlike all of us who were born of the sperm of man, he did not go astray How do you make this scripture go away? Philippians 2:6-11 (New International Version) 6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,   did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing   by taking the very nature of a servant,   being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, Philippians 2:6-11 (New American Standard Bible) 6 who, although He (A)existed in the (B)form of God, ©did not regard equality with God a thing to be [a]grasped, 7 but (D)emptied Himself, taking the form of a (E)bond-servant, and (F)being made in the likeness of men. He existed with divine nature then after emptying himself, he took on flesh nature. Now make that go away because it definitely stands in your way because it first says that he existed and then with what nature. What excuse do you have to nullify this?

Hi t8:

Jesus existed in the form of God when he was anointed by God and sent into the world to begin his ministry on earth as Lord and Christ.

And so, I am not denying those scriptures. They don't say anything about Jesus being in the form of God prior to being born into this world.

As a matter of fact, the scriptures state:

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

And so, who being in the form of God refers to the humble mind that Jesus had in this state.

And so, when was he Christ Jesus, t8, and Mike?

Quote

Matthew 16:13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Notice he said: Who I the Son of man am?

There are those scriptures pertaining to his birth into this world that indicate that he was named Jesus at his birth, and so the scripture in Philippians is referring to the “mind of Christ Jesus”, and so, when do you say that he was Christ Jesus and in the form of God?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2011,18:21)

Hi Mike: God calls those things that are not as though they were, and so, in the heart of God, he did exist.

And how did JESUS have a memory of his prior “existence” in the “heart of God”, what with no brain and all?

The PERSON Jesus asked to go back to the glory the PERSON Jesus had before the creation of the world.

Perhaps God showed him this former “glory” he had as a “thought in His heart” through a vision or something?  If so, then why would the PERSON Jesus want to go back to having no mind, will or emotions?

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Hey Guess what Jesus Pre-existed!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2011,18:44)

And so, when was he Christ Jesus, t8, and Mike?

Hebrews 7
1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything.

Hi Marty,

Abram wasn't renamed Abraham by God until AFTER the events described above took place.  Yet the writer of this scripture, knowing that he is NOW called “Abraham”, spoke as if he was already Abraham when he was blessed by Melchizedek.  What he's obviously saying is “He met [the man we NOW know as] Abraham returning from………”

Could this also be the case with Phil 2, Marty?  Could Paul be referring to the one we NOW know as Jesus Christ in a time before he really was Jesus Christ?

And although you keep ignoring it, I'll say it again:  If Jesus WAS a human being while being metaphorically “in the form of God”, then how could he have emptied himself and BEEN MADE in the likeness of a human being?

It is impossible for one who IS a human being to be made INTO the likeness of a human being.

Also, what “high and mighty” position or attitude did Jesus, as a human being, ever display that he would have had to empty himself OF at a later time?  In other words, what “aura” did Jesus ever have as a human that would have been considered “being in the form of God”?  When did he empty himself OF this “aura”?  And what is meant by the implication that he was “made in the likeness of a human being” after he emptied himself of this “aura”?

You leave many stones unturned, Marty.  Most probably because looking beneath them will cause you to rethink your understanding of Phil 2.

peace,
mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2011,11:59)

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2011,18:21) Hi Mike: God calls those things that are not as though they were, and so, in the heart of God, he did exist. And how did JESUS have a memory of his prior “existence” in the “heart of God”, what with no brain and all? The PERSON Jesus asked to go back to the glory the PERSON Jesus had before the creation of the world. Perhaps God showed him this former “glory” he had as a “thought in His heart” through a vision or something?  If so, then why would the PERSON Jesus want to go back to having no mind, will or emotions?   mike

Hi Mike:

Let me give you a clue how he knew. After he was born, God told him about it. Do you suppose his mother also told him as how he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in her womb? Maybe, don't you think?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Mike:

You say:

Quote

Could this also be the case with Phil 2, Marty? Could Paul be referring to the one we NOW know as Jesus Christ in a time before he really was Jesus Christ?

There goes that vivid imagination again, Mike. I believe that the scriptures state somewhere: “All things are possible to them that believe”. Maybe this is what that scripture meant?

Mike, Jesus could have let his position that God had given him in the body of Christ go to his head. He was Lord and Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God and he had the authority to forgive sins, but he did not. Instead he did not make a distinction between himself and sinners.

The Apostle Paul in Philippians 2 is teaching the church about humility and using the life of our Lord Jesus as an example, and so, maybe it is you who need to rethink Philippians 2, and stop trying make it say something that is not there.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2011,20:35)

Let me give you a clue how he knew. After he was born, God told him about it.

Hi Marty,

Okay, so I was right that you supposed God told him or showed him or whatever. Now, what was so great about “existing” inside of God's heart without a mind, will or emotions that Jesus asked to go back to that state?

And why didn't God grant his request?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2011,21:07)

There goes that vivid imagination again, Mike.

Really Marty?  I showed you a scripture where it is CLEAR this happened (presumably by the same author), yet I'm “imagining things” to think it happened again?  Would it help if I found more of the same?

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2011,21:07)

Mike, Jesus could have let his position that God had given him in the body of Christ go to his head.

Ah, but “could have” doesn't fit Phil 2, does it?  It doesn't say Jesus could have existed in the form of God, does it?

It says he WAS existing in the form of God.  WHEN EXACTLY on earth was he doing this, Marty?  And WHEN EXACTLY did he empty himself of this pomp?  And WHEN EXACTLY, after emptying himself of this pomp, was he made into the likeness of a human being?

Look UNDER the stones, Marty.  Search it out.  Seek and ye shall find.  Knock and it shall be opened for you.

(Btw, Jesus DID forgive sins on earth.)

peace,
mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2011,14:17)

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2011,20:35) Let me give you a clue how he knew.  After he was born, God told him about it. Hi Marty, Okay, so I was right that you supposed God told him or showed him or whatever.  Now, what was so great about “existing” inside of God's heart without a mind, will or emotions that Jesus asked to go back to that state? And why didn't God grant his request?

Hi Mike:

Jesus existed in the heart of God to be manifest to humanity in his timing, and Jesus was asking God to glorifiy him with the glory that was foreseen that he would have with the Father in his exalted position as head of the church. He says with the glory that I had because God had forseen this.

And God, did grant his request. Did he not say that “All power over heaven and earth has been given unto him”, and that “No man can come to the Father but by him”?

Sounds like to me that he granted his request.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

Jesus existed in the form of God when he was anointed by God and sent into the world to begin his ministry on earth as Lord and Christ.

you got a scripture for this ?
and how could a man be in a form of God ? scriptures please.(even moses was not in a form of God)

Quote

Let me give you a clue how he knew.  After he was born, God told him about it.  Do you suppose his mother also told him as how he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in her womb? Maybe, don't you think?

got any scripture for this ?

Quote

The Apostle Paul in Philippians 2 is teaching the church about humility and using the life of our Lord Jesus as an example, and so, maybe it is you who need to rethink Philippians 2, and stop trying make it say something that is not there.

how humble can someone be when he is poor ?
and when his ministry starts is he any more wealthier ?

how could you see Jesus in humility if he always was humble??

Going from being a poor man to now become a martyr is that your way of humility??

and show scriptures,

those are all questions that arise because you do not believe scriptures ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things,

Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary

and many more,

let see if you have those scriptures to certified your views in Gods name .

Pierre

[942767]

Hi Mike:

Quote

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2011,21:07) There goes that vivid imagination again, Mike.   Really Marty?  I showed you a scripture where it is CLEAR this happened (presumably by the same author), yet I'm “imagining things” to think it happened again?  Would it help if I found more of the same?

Mike, you showed me a scripture where it happened that the author of Hebrews states that Abraham met Melchizadek and called him in this scripture Abraham although his name was still Abram when he actually met Melchizadek, but no, it would not matter if you found several more incidents because that is not the case in Philippians 2.  There is nothing that states that Jesus was some other name prior to his birth into this world which you are trying to make a case by providing these scriptures.  The scriptures states that he was called Jesus when he was born into this world.  You can go back and check the scriptures and see if this is not the case.  And so, what you are trying to imply has no merit.

And being that the scripture in Philippians 2 clearly is speaking about the “state of mind of Jesus”.  He was in the form of God when he was Lord and Christ in his ministry on earth.  And yes, he did have the authority to forgive sins according the the below listed scripture:

Quote

Matthew 9:2And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. 3And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. 4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? 5For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? 6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

And so, now that we settled the question of when Jesus was in the form of God, that leaves us to figure out your question of “what exactly did Jesus empty himself of”, and just what the Apostle Paul means that he was “made in the likeness of men”.

This is what the KJV states:

Quote

Philippians 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

The fact that “he was in the form of God” was not what he wanted to promote, but rather, as these scriptures show, in humility he served God and men, and in this state of mind, although his was in the form of God by virtue of his authority as God's Lord and Christ, he obeyed God withouth sin even unto death of the cross.

Love in Christ,
Maraty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:13)

Hi Mike: Jesus existed in the heart of God to be manifest to humanity in his timing, and Jesus was asking God to glorifiy him with the glory that was foreseen that he would have with the Father in his exalted position as head of the church.

Ah, but here's another chink in your armor, Marty.  First, you assume that Jesus was asking for glory that was foreseen he would eventually have.  But that's not even close to what the scripture actually says, is it?  Nope!  Jesus is asking to be glorified again with the glory HE HAD.  Get it?  HE HAD!  Not “glory that I was PREDESTINED TO SOMEDAY HAVE”, but glory “I ALREADY HAD”.

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:13)

He says with the glory that I had because God had forseen this.

Whether or not GOD had “foreseen” this glory, Jesus couldn’t have rightfully called a glory that “God had foreseen” a glory that “I HAD”, could he?

Right now, maybe God is already seeing the glory YOU will someday have when you finally see the truth about Jesus' pre-existence.  But you couldn’t right now call that “the glory I HAD”, could you?

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:13)

And God, did grant his request.  Did he not say that “All power over heaven and earth has been given unto him”, and that “No man can come to the Father but by him”? Sounds like to me that he granted his request.

Chink in the armor #2, Marty.  If God TRULY granted Jesus' request, and sent him back to the glory HE HAD, then Jesus would right now be a thought in God's heart without a will, mind or emotions.  Because THAT is the glory that YOU claim Jesus was talking about.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:50)

Mike, you showed me a scripture where it happened that the author of Hebrews states that Abraham met Melchizadek and called him in this scripture Abraham although his name was still Abram when he actually met Melchizadek, but no, it would not matter if you found several more incidents because that is not the case in Philippians 2.

I see.  So Paul could refer to someone who was LATER KNOWN AS Abraham as “Abraham” before he was actually known by that name, but he could not refer to someone who was later known as Jesus Christ as “Jesus Christ” before he was actually known by that name?  And your “proof” for this is “because that is not the case in Philippians 2”?  

So this scripture is also wrong……….
Luke 3:34
the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,

…………because of this scripture?
Genesis 11:26
After Terah had lived 70 years, he became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran.

Marty, if I want to speak of the ages being created through Jesus, I don't have to call him “the one who would later be known as Jesus”.  We all NOW know him as “Jesus”, just as we all NOW know Abram as Abraham.  So Luke can rightly say that Terah was the father of Abraham, even though he was born “Abram”.  And Paul can rightly attribute an event from Jesus' pre-existence to “Jesus Christ”, even though he may or may not have been called by that name/title before he became flesh.

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:50)

He was in the form of God when he was Lord and Christ in his ministry on earth.

Okay, so on which day of his ministry did he decide to NOT be in the form of God anymore, empty himself, and be made into the likeness of a human being?

And how was he NOT in the likeness of a human being before he emptied himself?  Did any Apostle write about Jesus not looking like a human being?

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:50)

And so, now that we settled the question of when Jesus was in the form of God, that leaves us to figure out your question of “what exactly did Jesus empty himself of”, and just what the Apostle Paul means that he was “made in the likeness of men”.

Correct.  What have you come up with?

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:50)

The fact that “he was in the form of God” was not what he wanted to promote, but rather, as these scriptures show, in humility he served God and men, and in this state of mind, although his was in the form of God by virtue of his authority as God's Lord and Christ, he obeyed God withouth sin even unto death of the cross.

What?    How does this answer either point?  WHEN did he empty himself of his “form of God”, Marty?  WHEN?

And after doing so, what is meant by him being made in the likeness of a human being if you assert that he never was in any other likeness?

You are dodging the points.  Please address them DIRECTLY.  I gave you the template in the other thread – maybe you should use it.  

peace,
mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2011,08:02)

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:13) Hi Mike: Jesus existed in the heart of God to be manifest to humanity in his timing, and Jesus was asking God to glorifiy him with the glory that was foreseen that he would have with the Father in his exalted position as head of the church. Ah, but here's another chink in your armor, Marty.  First, you assume that Jesus was asking for glory that was foreseen he would eventually have.  But that's not even close to what the scripture actually says, is it?  Nope!  Jesus is asking to be glorified again with the glory HE HAD.  Get it?  HE HAD!  Not “glory that I was PREDESTINED TO SOMEDAY HAVE”, but glory “I ALREADY HAD”. Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:13) He says with the glory that I had because God had forseen this. Whether or not GOD had “foreseen” this glory, Jesus couldn’t have rightfully called a glory that “God had foreseen” a glory that “I HAD”, could he? Right now, maybe God is already seeing the glory YOU will someday have when you finally see the truth about Jesus' pre-existence.  But you couldn’t right now call that “the glory I HAD”, could you? Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:13) And God, did grant his request.  Did he not say that “All power over heaven and earth has been given unto him”, and that “No man can come to the Father but by him”? Sounds like to me that he granted his request. Chink in the armor #2, Marty.  If God TRULY granted Jesus' request, and sent him back to the glory HE HAD, then Jesus would right now be a thought in God's heart without a will, mind or emotions.  Because THAT is the glory that YOU claim Jesus was talking about. mike

Hi Mike:

Just this question. According to you, Jesus is asking to be glorified with the glory that he had in his pre-existent state.

Did he already have the glory that God gave him as described by the following scripture?

Philippians 2:8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

According to you, he already had this glory in his pre-existant state. Isn't that what you are saying?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2011,08:31)

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:50) Mike, you showed me a scripture where it happened that the author of Hebrews states that Abraham met Melchizadek and called him in this scripture Abraham although his name was still Abram when he actually met Melchizadek, but no, it would not matter if you found several more incidents because that is not the case in Philippians 2. I see.  So Paul could refer to someone who was LATER KNOWN AS Abraham as “Abraham” before he was actually known by that name, but he could not refer to someone who was later known as Jesus Christ as “Jesus Christ” before he was actually known by that name?  And your “proof” for this is “because that is not the case in Philippians 2”?   So this scripture is also wrong………. Luke 3:34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, …………because of this scripture? Genesis 11:26 After Terah had lived 70 years, he became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran. Marty, if I want to speak of the ages being created through Jesus, I don't have to call him “the one who would later be known as Jesus”.  We all NOW know him as “Jesus”, just as we all NOW know Abram as Abraham.  So Luke can rightly say that Terah was the father of Abraham, even though he was born “Abram”.  And Paul can rightly attribute an event from Jesus' pre-existence to “Jesus Christ”, even though he may or may not have been called by that name/title before he became flesh. Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:50) He was in the form of God when he was Lord and Christ in his ministry on earth. Okay, so on which day of his ministry did he decide to NOT be in the form of God anymore, empty himself, and be made into the likeness of a human being? And how was he NOT in the likeness of a human being before he emptied himself?  Did any Apostle write about Jesus not looking like a human being? Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:50) And so, now that we settled the question of when Jesus was in the form of God, that leaves us to figure out your question of “what exactly did Jesus empty himself of”, and just what the Apostle Paul means that he was “made in the likeness of men”. Correct.  What have you come up with? Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:50) The fact that “he was in the form of God” was not what he wanted to promote, but rather, as these scriptures show, in humility he served God and men, and in this state of mind, although his was in the form of God by virtue of his authority as God's Lord and Christ, he obeyed God withouth sin even unto death of the cross. What?    How does this answer either point?  WHEN did he empty himself of his “form of God”, Marty?  WHEN? And after doing so, what is meant by him being made in the likeness of a human being if you assert that he never was in any other likeness? You are dodging the points.  Please address them DIRECTLY.  I gave you the template in the other thread – maybe you should use it.   peace, mike

Hi Mike:

The discussion about Abram and his name is a diversion which has nothing to do with Philippians 2.  There is nothing in the scriptures that states that Jesus was called by another name prior to his birth into this world, but as I showed you the scripture is speaking of the ” humble state of mind of Christ Jesus” and he was Christ Jesus, and I do not see anywhere in the scriptures that he was Christ Jesus prior to his advent on this earth.

And I did not say that he stopped being in the form of God during his ministry on earth as Lord and Christ, he continued in that mininistry, but the KJV states that “he thought it not robbery to be equal with God” (He did not seek to make this the focus of his ministry, but he said that he came to serve), and the scripture is about his obedience to God in a humble state of mind even unto death on the cross.

Here is a scripture which exemplifies what I am trying to relate to you:

Quote

Jhn 13:13   Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.   Jhn 13:14   If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.   Jhn 13:15   For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.   Jhn 13:16   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 05 2011,17:48)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2011,08:02) Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:13) Hi Mike: Jesus existed in the heart of God to be manifest to humanity in his timing, and Jesus was asking God to glorifiy him with the glory that was foreseen that he would have with the Father in his exalted position as head of the church. Ah, but here's another chink in your armor, Marty.  First, you assume that Jesus was asking for glory that was foreseen he would eventually have.  But that's not even close to what the scripture actually says, is it?  Nope!  Jesus is asking to be glorified again with the glory HE HAD.  Get it?  HE HAD!  Not “glory that I was PREDESTINED TO SOMEDAY HAVE”, but glory “I ALREADY HAD”. Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:13) He says with the glory that I had because God had forseen this. Whether or not GOD had “foreseen” this glory, Jesus couldn’t have rightfully called a glory that “God had foreseen” a glory that “I HAD”, could he? Right now, maybe God is already seeing the glory YOU will someday have when you finally see the truth about Jesus' pre-existence.  But you couldn’t right now call that “the glory I HAD”, could you? Quote (942767 @ June 04 2011,18:13) And God, did grant his request.  Did he not say that “All power over heaven and earth has been given unto him”, and that “No man can come to the Father but by him”? Sounds like to me that he granted his request. Chink in the armor #2, Marty.  If God TRULY granted Jesus' request, and sent him back to the glory HE HAD, then Jesus would right now be a thought in God's heart without a will, mind or emotions.  Because THAT is the glory that YOU claim Jesus was talking about. mike Hi Mike: Just this question.  According to you, Jesus is asking to be glorified with the glory that he had in his pre-existent state.   Did he already have the glory that God gave him as described by the following scripture? Philippians 2:8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. According to you, he already had this glory in his pre-existant state.  Isn't that what you are saying? Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,

No, Jesus was raised to an even higher glory than the one he previously had – the one he asked to be returned to.

Because of what he did, he NOW was worthy enough to open the scroll – apparently something he was not worthy of before, since they link his worthiness to his sufferings on earth.

Now, please DIRECTLY address the shortcomings I've pointed out in your understanding.

mike

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