Preexistence

[Istari]

Marty,
Revelation is a Symbolic Book. Be careful you do not take it as literal: e.g. Angels don't ride horses (It is symbolic for Power and force – as in War Horse)

The Lamb slain from before time is certainly symbolic for Jesus' sacrificial death but this is because God can see the end of things as well as the beginning and knew that that was what would occur – remember that Revelation is the 'Testament from God given to Jesus of those things that must occur'

Context – always Context…

[Istari]

Marty,
Your last post to me was SPOT ON – except for the 'didn't exist prior to birth through Mary'

Oh, my last post : 'The Testamony of Jesus given to Hom by God…' sorry – no edit facility…

[Istari]

Arch – the REVELATION … (not testimony… It's late here in UK…!!)

[Proclaimer]

Quote (942767 @ May 26 2011,11:12)

Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,10:55) Oh yeah. I can see what you are saying now. He wasn't a sentient person prior. So he is neither the Angel of the LORD or the LOGOS that was with God? So he is like us, having started his life as a person on Earth? Hi t8: The “Logos” pertain to him, but the Logos is not a person, but is what God has spoken. He existed in the heart of the Father prior to the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person, and so, yes, as a sentient person, or living soul, he had a beginning when he was born of the virgin Mary. Love in Christ, Marty

Just like us then right?
Are we not also born the same way?

[Pastry]

Quote (942767 @ May 27 2011,03:11)

Here is an example for you to compare to John 17:5 Quote Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We know that the lamb was not slain at the time of the foundation of the world, but this was forseen from the foundation of the world, and occurred in God's  prescribed timing. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty! Rev. is mostly Prophecy. And when Rev. was written, Jesus had died already. Jesus knew from the foundation of the earth, before He became a man that He would die for us. From the foundation of the world He knew it….He is the one that God created all through. So it is no news that John would say that. He wrote both Books… All these Scripture go together. Like He came down from Heaven, and do the will of Him that sent Him, to John 17:5 when Jesus asked His Father to have the glory He had with His Father before the world was. That is what it says……
If I say to my daughter, I want to have flowers, like I had from you, before, would She knew what I meant? That is what Jesus is asking His Father to give Him the glory He had with Him before the world was….So why is it so hard to understand what the Bible is teaching us….???

Peace Irene

[942767]

Quote (Pastry @ May 27 2011,10:47)

Quote (942767 @ May 27 2011,03:11) Here is an example for you to compare to John 17:5 Quote Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We know that the lamb was not slain at the time of the foundation of the world, but this was forseen from the foundation of the world, and occurred in God's  prescribed timing. Love in Christ, Marty Marty!  Rev. is mostly Prophecy.  And when Rev. was written, Jesus had died already.  Jesus knew from the foundation of the earth, before He became a man that He would die for us. From the foundation of the world He knew it….He is the one that God created all through.  So it is no news that John would say that.  He wrote both Books… All these Scripture go together.  Like He came down from Heaven, and do the will of Him that sent Him, to John 17:5 when Jesus asked His Father to have the glory He had with His Father before the world was.  That is what it says…… If I say to my daughter, I want to have flowers, like I had from you, before, would She knew what I meant?  That is what Jesus is asking His Father to give Him the glory He had with Him before the world was….So why is it so hard to understand what the Bible is teaching us….??? Peace Irene

No, Mrs., God has forseen everything from the foundation of the world. He knew that through Jesus his plan for humanity would be fulfilled. He is also God's heir. God made everything that he made for him.

Jesus was not a sentient person until he was born of the virgin Mary.

You cannot even begin to relate the circumstances that have to do between you and your daughter to what God can do.

David states by the Spirit of God:

Quote

Psalm 110 1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Was Jesus already at the right hand of the Father when David was speaking this by the Spirit, or did this occur after Jesus was resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ May 27 2011,09:26)

Quote (942767 @ May 26 2011,11:12) Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,10:55) Oh yeah. I can see what you are saying now. He wasn't a sentient person prior. So he is neither the Angel of the LORD or the LOGOS that was with God? So he is like us, having started his life as a person on Earth? Hi t8: The “Logos” pertain to him, but the Logos is not a person, but is what God has spoken. He existed in the heart of the Father prior to the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person, and so, yes, as a sentient person, or living soul, he had a beginning when he was born of the virgin Mary. Love in Christ, Marty Just like us then right? Are we not also born the same way?

Hi t8:

He was like us in every way except that he was conceived of by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and not of the sperm of man.

And in the spirit, He was the firstborn again from the dead.  We are born again have the same Father by God's Spirit.  Prior to his ascension into heaven he said he was going to his God and our God and to his Father and our Father.

As far as his start as a sentient person and ours being the same, the answer to your question is, yes. Eve is the mother of all living.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……….We are born (exactly) the same way Jesus was (BORN) through a flesh and Blood women . What difference is it if GOD altered the DNA in MARY'S Womb , that does not change any thing except how he Looked , that did not change his coming into existence as a pure human being did it?.  Man can NOW manipulate DNA and create exact clones, but that does not change what it is, just it appearance only. Like Sheep for instance it still will eat grass just like all other sheep do right?. Jesus was prophesied to look a certain way remember, and so what if GOD the Father altered His DNA to look as he planned him too. That did not change him from being a simple Human Being , now did it? Jesus did not recieve any special cognate ability's from his flesh berth but From the Spirit He later recieved from GOD at his baptism in the Jordan river when the Spirit of God descended and remained on him. From that time forth he was a son of the living GOD, and was then sent out into the world to Speak GOD the Fathers words to us all. IMO

peace and love to you and yours T8……………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,21:49)

Hi Mike: And he said, and “Now” glorify me, and not now glorify me again with the glory that I had before the world was.

Hi Marty,

Glorify me with the glory I HAD means that he HAD glory before, and was asking for that same glory again.

If you said, “Give me the same meal I HAD the last time I came in”, it means you HAD that particular meal at a prior time, and want it AGAIN.

Am I wrong?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Pastry @ May 26 2011,01:06)

NOTICE WITH THE GLORY I HAD, I HAD, I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS…..

Hi Irene,

I've tried that “repetition technique” myself a few times.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 26 2011,10:11)

Here is an example for you to compare to John 17:5 Quote Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We know that the lamb was not slain at the time of the foundation of the world, but this was forseen from the foundation of the world, and occurred in God's  prescribed timing. Love in Christ, Marty

Lets' examine your example:

Rev 13:8 NET ©
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed”, but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.

Marty, read 17:8 and find out that what they say makes perfect sense – as opposed to the very awkward way most translations render this verse.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 26 2011,21:23)

David states by the Spirit of God: Quote Psalm 110 1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Was Jesus already at the right hand of the Father when David was speaking this by the Spirit, or did this occur after Jesus was resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven?

This is called a prophecy, Marty.  Just because there are prophecies about Jesus is not to say his only existence before becoming a man was in prophecy – as if people, such as Cyrus, actually EXISTED just because they were prophesied about.  

You are as quick to point out prophesies, which we all know the Bible is full of, as you are to twist or ignore the scripture that says the PERSON Jesus HAD glory alongside his God before the creation of the world.

Why do you believe only part of the scriptures?

[Pastry]

Quote (942767 @ May 27 2011,14:23)

Quote (Pastry @ May 27 2011,10:47) Quote (942767 @ May 27 2011,03:11) Here is an example for you to compare to John 17:5 Quote Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We know that the lamb was not slain at the time of the foundation of the world, but this was forseen from the foundation of the world, and occurred in God's  prescribed timing. Love in Christ, Marty Marty!  Rev. is mostly Prophecy.  And when Rev. was written, Jesus had died already.  Jesus knew from the foundation of the earth, before He became a man that He would die for us. From the foundation of the world He knew it….He is the one that God created all through.  So it is no news that John would say that.  He wrote both Books… All these Scripture go together.  Like He came down from Heaven, and do the will of Him that sent Him, to John 17:5 when Jesus asked His Father to have the glory He had with His Father before the world was.  That is what it says…… If I say to my daughter, I want to have flowers, like I had from you, before, would She knew what I meant?  That is what Jesus is asking His Father to give Him the glory He had with Him before the world was….So why is it so hard to understand what the Bible is teaching us….??? Peace Irene No, Mrs., God has forseen everything from the foundation of the world.  He knew that through Jesus his plan for humanity would be fulfilled.  He is also God's heir.  God made everything that he made for him. Jesus was not a sentient person until he was born of the virgin Mary. You cannot even begin to relate the circumstances that have to do between you and your daughter to what God can do. David states by the Spirit of God: Quote Psalm 110 1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Was Jesus already at the right hand of the Father when David was speaking this by the Spirit, or did this occur after Jesus was resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty!  To me it is so sad that even though it says so man times that Jesus was not only in the mind of His Father, and how could He ever be just like us, when He came directly from the Father a literal Son of God, not made out of the dust of the earth.  Yet you and others ignore that.  There is no Scripture that tells us He was exactly like us.  He was flesh like us and that is all…..Hebrew tells us He us the only begotten Son of God, and so does John 1:14……
Hbr 1:8   But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.  

Hbr 1:9   Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.  

Hbr 1:10   And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:  

Verse 10 read it slowly, what it says….He laid the foundation of the earth.  Not just in Gods mind,   No Sir…..

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

This is who became Jesus, ,THE GLORY OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH….  THE WORD OF GOD BECAME FLESH…. NOT ONLY FORETOLD OR IN THE MIND OF GOD ETC.

I WILL PROCLAIM THIS UNTIL THE COWS COME HOME.,…
PEASE IRENE

[942767]

Quote (Pastry @ May 29 2011,18:50)

Quote (942767 @ May 27 2011,14:23) Quote (Pastry @ May 27 2011,10:47) Quote (942767 @ May 27 2011,03:11) Here is an example for you to compare to John 17:5 Quote Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We know that the lamb was not slain at the time of the foundation of the world, but this was forseen from the foundation of the world, and occurred in God's  prescribed timing. Love in Christ, Marty Marty!  Rev. is mostly Prophecy.  And when Rev. was written, Jesus had died already.  Jesus knew from the foundation of the earth, before He became a man that He would die for us. From the foundation of the world He knew it….He is the one that God created all through.  So it is no news that John would say that.  He wrote both Books… All these Scripture go together.  Like He came down from Heaven, and do the will of Him that sent Him, to John 17:5 when Jesus asked His Father to have the glory He had with His Father before the world was.  That is what it says…… If I say to my daughter, I want to have flowers, like I had from you, before, would She knew what I meant?  That is what Jesus is asking His Father to give Him the glory He had with Him before the world was….So why is it so hard to understand what the Bible is teaching us….??? Peace Irene No, Mrs., God has forseen everything from the foundation of the world.  He knew that through Jesus his plan for humanity would be fulfilled.  He is also God's heir.  God made everything that he made for him. Jesus was not a sentient person until he was born of the virgin Mary. You cannot even begin to relate the circumstances that have to do between you and your daughter to what God can do. David states by the Spirit of God: Quote Psalm 110 1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Was Jesus already at the right hand of the Father when David was speaking this by the Spirit, or did this occur after Jesus was resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven? Love in Christ, Marty Marty!  To me it is so sadthat even though it says so man times that Jesus was not on ly in the mind of His Father, and how coukld He everbe just like us, when He came directly from the Father a litaral Son of God, not made out of the dust of the earth.  Yet you and others ignore that.  There is no Scripture that tlls us He was exactk=ly like us.  He was flesh like usm abd that is all…..Hebrew tells us He us the only begotten Son of God, and so does John 1:14…… Hbr 1:8   But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.   Hbr 1:9   Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.   Hbr 1:10   And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:   Verse 10 read it slowly, what it sats….He laid the foundation of the easrth.  Nit just in Gods mind,   No Sir….. Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.   This is who became Jesus, ,THE GLORY OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH….  THE WORD OF GOD BECAME FLESH…. NOT ONLY FORETOLD OR IN THE MIND OF GOD ETC. I WILL PROCLAIM THIS UNTIL THE COWS COME HOME.,… PLEASE IRENE

Hi Mrs:

These are some scriptures which may interest you:

Quote

Hebrews 2:11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 29 2011,07:40)

These are some scriptures which may interest you: 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

2Pe 1:4
Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire.

Marty, does the fact that we may partake in divine nature indicate that we already exist with divine nature?

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2011,02:37)

Quote (942767 @ May 29 2011,07:40) These are some scriptures which may interest you: 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 2Pe 1:4 Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. Marty, does the fact that we may partake in divine nature indicate that we already exist with divine nature?

Hi Mike:

No, we did not already exist with a divine nature, and neither did Jesus. He was born into this world and infant just like all of humanity, but unlike all of us who were born of the sperm of man, he did not go astray

At the age of 12 studying the Word of God and growing in favor with God and man, and saying that he must be about His Father's business.

Quote

Luke 2:46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. 48And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 50And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. 52And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[karmarie]

Hi all.

Just been going back on some old posts of mine from a year ago, and was wondering anyone's views on this, thanks!

karmarie
Posted: June 02 2010,22:15

(Conversation with Bodhitharta),

In hermas it seems the son of God has always existed, he was the one through whom all things were created. He is the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was a man who the Son (Holy Spirit) came to dwell in.

Because Jesus was the perfect vessel he after suffering dyeing was risen from the dead and became the second son of God.

So there is now two sons of God. One the Holy Spirit who always was and two Jesus. The first from the dead,

And there will be many more, whomever the Son (Holy Spirit) dwells in.

—————————–

How I see things so far myself,

The Holy Spirit (son of God) always has been, is loved and protected by God, He always has been a part of God, a Spirit being, who with God YHVH created everything, treasured and eternal, So close to God they are one.

Jesus being a Man lived and acted righteously perfectly, sinless he became the chosen vessel for the Holy Spirit to enter and become a part of, which happened when at the Baptism of Jesus the Holy Spirit was seen coming from the clouds, floating down upon him.

Jesus then became the living word of God, the Son of God was in him The words he spoke were not his own but the Son of God within.

So, when Jesus was crucified, he was then risen from the dead and taken up to the Father he became the second son of God. The only one from all of humanity,

weep not for behold the Lion from the tribe of Judah has overcome!

And he was to be the first of many. But the position he holds is higher than any.

So..Father
   Son (Holy Spirit)
   Son (Jesus)

I dont know yet though im still learning.

————————————

Sheppard of hermas..written aprox 90AD

CHAPTER II.
” A certain man had a field and many slaves, and he planted a certain part of the field with a vineyard, and selecting a faithful and beloved and much valued slave, he called him to him, and said, 'Take this vineyard which I have planted, and stake it until I come, and do nothing else to the vineyard; and attend to this order of mine, and you shall receive your freedom from me.' And the master of the slave departed to a foreign country.

And when he was gone, the slave took and staked the vineyard; and when he had finished the staking of the vines, he saw that the vineyard was full of weeds. He then reflected, saying, 'I have kept this order of my master: I will dig up the rest of this vineyard, and it will be more beautiful when dug up; and being free of weeds, it will yield more fruit, not being choked by them.' He took, therefore, and dug up the vineyard, and rooted out all the weeds that were in it. And that vineyard became very beautiful and fruitful, Having no weeds to choke it.

And after a certain time the master of the slave and of the field returned, and entered into the vineyard. And seeing that the vines were suitably supported on stakes, and the ground, moreover, dug up, and all the weeds rooted out, and the vines fruitful, he was greatly pleased with the work of his slave.

And calling his beloved son who was his heir, and his friends who were his councillors, he told them what orders he had given his slave, and what he had found performed. And they rejoiced along with the slave at the testimony which his master bore to him. And he said to them, 'I promised this slave freedom if he obeyed the command which I gave him; and he has kept my command, and done besides a good work to the vineyard, and has pleased me exceedingly. In return, therefore, for the work which he has done, I wish to make him co-heir with my son, because, having good thoughts, he did not neglect them, but carried them out.' With this resolution of the master his son and friends were well pleased,  that the slave should be co-heir with the son.

After a few days the master made a feast, and sent to his slave many dishes from his table. And the slave receiving the dishes that were sent him from his master, took of them what was sufficient for himself, and distributed the rest among his fellow-slaves. And his fellow-slaves rejoiced to receive the dishes, and began to pray for him, that he might find still greater favour with his master for having so treated them. His master heard all these things that were done, and was again greatly pleased with his conduct. And the master again calling; together his friends and his son, reported to them the slave's proceeding with regard to the dishes which he had sent him. And they were still more satisfied that the slave should become co-heir with his son.”

CHAPTER V.
“I said to you a little ago,” he answered, “that you were cunning and obstinate in asking explanations of the parables; but since you are so persistent, I shall unfold to you the meaning of the similitudes of the field, and of all the others that follow, that you may make them known to every one. Hear now,” he said, “and understand them.

The field is this world; and the Lord of the field is He who created, and perfected, and strengthened all things; [and the son is the Holy Spirit; ] and the slave is the Son of God; and the vines are this people, whom He Himself planted; and the stakes are the holy angels of the Lord, who keep His people together; and the weeds that were plucked out of the vineyard are the iniquities of God's servants; and the dishes which He sent Him from His able are the commandments which He gave His people through His Son; and the friends and fellow-councillors are the holy angels who were first created; and the Master's absence from home is the time that remains until His appearing.”

I said to him, “Sir, all these are great, and marvellous, and glorious things. Could I, therefore,” I continued, “understand them? No, nor could any other man, even if exceedingly wise. Moreover,” I added, “explain to me what I am about to ask you.” “Say what you wish,” he replied. “Why, sir,” I asked, “is the Son of God in the parable in the form of a slave?”

CHAPTER VI.
“Hear,” he answered: “the Son of God is not in the form of a slave, but in great power and might.” “How so, sir?” I said; “I do not understand.” “Because,” he answered, “God planted the vineyard, that is to say, He created the people, and gave them to His Son; and the Son appointed His angels over them to keep them; and He Himself purged away their sins, having suffered many trials and undergone many labours, for no one is able to dig without labour and toil. He Himself, then, having purged away the sins of the people, showed them the paths of life by giving them the law which He received from His Father. [You see,” he said, “that He is the Lord of the people, having received all authority from His Father. ] And why the Lord took His Son as councillor, and the glorious angels, regarding the heirship of the slave, listen.

The holy, pre-existent Spirit, that created every creature, God made to dwell in flesh, which He chose. This flesh, accordingly, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, was nobly subject to that Spirit, walking religiously and chastely, in no respect defiling the Spirit; and accordingly, after living excellently and purely, and after labouring and co-operating with the Spirit, and having in everything acted vigorously and courageously along with the Holy Spirit, He assumed it as a partner with it. For this conduct of the flesh pleased Him, because it was not defiled on the earth while having the Holy Spirit.

He took, therefore, as fellow-councillors His Son and the glorious angels, in order that this flesh, which had been subject to the body without a fault, might have some place of tabernacle, and that it might not appear that the reward [of its servitude had been lost ], for the flesh that has been found without spot or defilement, i
n which the Holy Spirit dwelt, [will receive a reward ]. You have now the explanation of this parable also.”

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 29 2011,15:58)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2011,02:37) Quote (942767 @ May 29 2011,07:40) These are some scriptures which may interest you: 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 2Pe 1:4 Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. Marty, does the fact that we may partake in divine nature indicate that we already exist with divine nature? Hi Mike: No, we did not already exist with a divine nature

Hi Marty,

Okay, so if us partaking in divine nature speaks of beings who DO exist, but just not in divine nature, then wouldn't Jesus partaking in human nature speak of a being who DID exist, but just not in human nature?

We would never say, “Marty partook in human nature”, because you have never been anything but human nature, right?

peace,
mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2011,14:03)

Quote (942767 @ May 29 2011,15:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2011,02:37) Quote (942767 @ May 29 2011,07:40) These are some scriptures which may interest you: 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 2Pe 1:4 Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. Marty, does the fact that we may partake in divine nature indicate that we already exist with divine nature? Hi Mike: No, we did not already exist with a divine nature Hi Marty, Okay, so if us partaking in divine nature speaks of beings who DO exist, but just not in divine nature, then wouldn't Jesus partaking in human nature speak of a being who DID exist, but just not in human nature? We would never say, “Marty partook in human nature”, because you have never been anything but human nature, right? peace, mike

Hi Mike:

He existed in the heart of the Father, but not as a sentient person until he was born into this world.

And as I discussed with you by the scriptures, he was born an infant just like all of us and was not born with a divine nature, but it the divine nature was developed within him as he learned to obey the Word of God in his daily life.

God, unlike, we who may want to have a son, can plan to have a Son anytime he gets ready to do so.

But even with me who in human nature did not exist before my birth into this world, God had forseen that I would exist.

Exist, yes, foreordained, yes, but no, not as a sentient person. A sentient person being someone that has a mind, a will, and emotions.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 31 2011,10:25)

Hi Mike: He existed in the heart of the Father, but not as a sentient person until he was born into this world. But even with me who in human nature did not exist before my birth into this world, God had forseen that I would exist. Exist, yes, foreordained, yes, but no, not as a sentient person.  A sentient person being someone that has a mind, a will, and emotions. Love in Christ, Marty

Hmmmm………….that's quite some “existence” eh?    No mind.  No will.  No emotions.  Are you sure that could qualify as “existing”?  Seems a bit of a stretch to me.

It's amazing that Jesus even remembered the glory HE HAD alongside God before the creation of the world, what with no mind and all.  It's even more amazing that after living with a mind and a will and emotions, that he asked to go back to the glory of a mindless, will-less, emotionless “existence” in the heart of the Father.

Good thing for us that God exalted him to the highest honors available, instead of granting his request, huh?  

Marty, your claims are transparent.  We can easily see them as the claims of a man who knows what the scriptures teach, but can't fit those teachings around his own “truth”, and so will go to humorously illogical lengths to align what the scriptures actually teach to his own doctrine.

It's sad, really.

peace,
mike

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