Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2011,13:32)

and “was made in the likeness of men”, I can only understand to mean that he did not distinguish himself from any other man.  For example, he ate with sinners, and he washed the disciples feet.

Hi Marty,

You can only understand it that way because you've made up your mind that Jesus needs to be just like us for some reason.  That's why you struggle with this phrase and settle with “I can only understand this to mean………”

I don't have to struggle with that phrase.  Since Jesus DID pre-exist his flesh, it all makes PERFECT sense.  But while you're stuggling to understand that phrase, consider also that the Greek words ACTUALLY SAY, “and was made in the likeness of A HUMAN BEING“.  That's what “anthropos” means, Marty.

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2011,13:32)

The Apostle Paul did not intend to teach a Pre-existent Jesus by these scriptures.

Yeah?  And I suppose he wasn't teaching it by these words either:

Romans 8:3 NIV
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.

1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 10:3-4 NIV
3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:47 NIV
47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Colossians 1:15-17  
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Hebrews 2:14 NIV
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

Hebrews 10:5 NIV
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

 “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
 but a body you prepared for me;

Paul sure worded things funny if Jesus didn't pre-exist………..don't you think?  About how many of them do you honestly also have to say to yourself………”I can only understand this to mean………”?

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2011,14:07)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 09 2011,08:12) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,03:06) Hi Mike and Irene: You say Jesus “emptied himself” prior to becoming a man.  What does that mean?  Emptied himself in what way or of what? Love in Christ, Marty Nature of God > Emptying > Nature of man > Humility > Death > Resurrection -back to the glory he had before the world began. Hi t8: I have already showed that he was in the form of God in his ministry here on earth as God's Christ. Love in Christ, Marty

Which is it Marty?

Was he “in the form of God” during his ministry? Or had he already “made himself of no reputation” at that point?

Oh yeah………..and when was he made in the likeness of a human being? What likeness was he in before this happened?

mike

[Baker]

Marty!  Mike also only gave you a few Scriptures, there are more then those, which you then have to”understand this to mean.”  
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.  

Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  

Jhn 1:4   In him was life; and the life was the light of men.  

Jhn 1:5   And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.  

Jhn 1:6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.  

Jhn 1:7   The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.  

Jhn 1:8   He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.  

Jhn 1:9   [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.  

Jhn 1:10   He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.  

Jhn 1:11   He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jhn 1:12   But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:  

Jhn 1:13   Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 
Just to make The Word of God to understand better, this Scripture makes it clear, who it is in
Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  

Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  

Jhn 8:57   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?  

Jhn 8:58   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.  

Lets see how you going to interpret these Scriptures….Or are you going to believe Jesus when He said that He came down from Heaven etc.
Peace and Love Irene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2011,14:07)

Hi t8: I have already showed that he was in the form of God in his ministry here on earth as God's Christ. Love in Christ, Marty

What you have shown is that you need to add or takeaway in order to make it say what you want it to say.

He existed in the form of God/with divine nature.
He emptied himself and became a servant. He was found as a man/human nature.

Divine nature > Human nature > Humility > Death > Resurrection > Glory that he had with the Father before the world begun.

I personally do not see the point in butchering that which is written. It is easier to just accept the truth than fight it. No reward in it either.

Read it again in case you think we are making it up.

<>
New American Standard Bible
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We take the scripture for what it says and those who do not, need to add or take away from it to make it say what they want it to say.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8………> simple question, what time was Paul talking about ? , was it before he came as you say to earth, or while he was on earth. Which one was it T8, if you say while he was on earth that would be right , because Paul was not talking about any Pre-earth existence. Now do we exist with the Nature of God In us also (converted Christians) EXACTLY what is the nature of GOD T8?, is it not the Love of GOD shed around in our hearts by the hand of GOD. Would that not qualify us as also existing with the Nature of GOD too. Think about it T8 you are wrong in this brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………….gene

[Proclaimer]

The time that is being talked about is a time before he partook of human nature. We know that he was born as a human, so I will let you figure it out.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2011,09:43)

because Paul was not talking about any Pre-earth existence. Now do we exist with the Nature of God In us also (converted Christians)

Before existing in the flesh.

Also. are you saying that you exist in the form of God? I have never heard you make that claim before.

[terraricca]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2011,00:41)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2011,14:07) Hi t8: I have already showed that he was in the form of God in his ministry here on earth as God's Christ. Love in Christ, Marty What you have shown is that you need to add or takeaway in order to make it say what you want it to say. He existed in the form of God/with divine nature. He emptied himself and became a servant. He was found as a man/human nature. Divine nature > Human nature > Humility > Death > Resurrection > Glory that he had with the Father before the world begun. I personally do not see the point in butchering that which is written. It is easier to just accept the truth than fight it. No reward in it either. Read it again in case you think we are making it up. <> New American Standard Bible 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. We take the scripture for what it says and those who do not, need to add or take away from it to make it say what they want it to say.

T8

the statement in this scripture “in the form of God” what does it mean??

is it his physical form ,like a form separated from God but in the similar form ??

or would he be in God ,i mean inside God form??

Pierre

[Baker]

Gene! What is your nature??

[Proclaimer]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 13 2011,12:04)

the statement in this scripture “in the form of God” what does it mean??

Some translations use “the nature of God”.

[terraricca]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2011,20:46)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 13 2011,12:04) the statement in this scripture “in the form of God” what does it mean?? Some translations use “the nature of God”.

T8

being in the form or being in the nature of God would be similar ?

if so then we can establish that God and Christ are different beings and that Christ was created by God and distinct from himself.

because being in”” is not being that ” right??

Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 13 2011,14:38)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2011,20:46) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 13 2011,12:04) the statement in this scripture “in the form of God” what does it mean?? Some translations use “the nature of God”. T8 being in the form or being in the nature of God would be similar ? if so then we can establish that God and Christ are  different beings and that Christ was  created by God and distinct from himself. because being in”” is not being that ” right?? Pierre

Pierre! being in the same form as God, or the nature of God which is Spirit. And then made Himself of the form of men, or made Himself the nature of men. When you make yourself of something else, you would have to be that form or nature. jesus was a Spirit Being and became a human being……in gthe likeness of men…….

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Peace and Love Irene

[Proclaimer]

The clue here is that he was in the form of God and was found in the form of man. Later we are told that returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun. The glory that he has now, is the glory that he had before the world begun.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 13 2011,12:04)

T8 the statement in this scripture “in the form of God” what does it mean?? is it his physical form ,like a form separated from God but in the similar form ?? or would he be in God ,i mean inside God form?? Pierre

Pierre, he existed with the nature of God and then was found in human nature.

There are 2 natures here, and we also know that there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Remember this. Jesus became one of us, so we could eventually become like him.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8…….> When Paul wrote that, Jesus did not exist on earth any longer, but he “HAD” “EXISTED” (past tense) on earth with the nature of GOD, BEFORE he ascended, GET IT?. Paul was not addressing any “PRIOR” earth existence at all, he was talking about his Past (EARTH) EXISTENCE> Paul was showing them what Jesus was like when he (EXISTED) ON EARTH, not before that.

ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS HAVE THE “NATURE” OF GOD (IN) THEM ALSO Just like Jesus did when he was on earth and we need to humble ourselves as Jesus did. That was Paul's point nothing more. IMO

peace and love……………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 13 2011,12:04)

Gene!  What is your nature??

Baker…….> Again as i have noticed you are the Personal attackers Here as you have with many who have left this site. Alway starting the personal attacks then when some one comes back at you you holler foul. I think that question would be better fitting you then any one else. IMO

[terraricca]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2011,00:00)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 13 2011,12:04) T8 the statement in this scripture “in the form of God” what does it mean?? is it his physical form ,like a form separated from God but in the similar form ?? or would he be in God ,i mean inside God form?? Pierre Pierre, he existed with the nature of God and then was found in human nature. There are 2 natures here, and we also know that there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Remember this. Jesus became one of us, so we could eventually become like him.

T8

you are absolutly right,for some it is difficult to understand that God ,Christ and the angels are separated beings from God and all have been created by God.

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2011,17:00)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 13 2011,12:04) T8 the statement in this scripture “in the form of God” what does it mean?? is it his physical form ,like a form separated from God but in the similar form ?? or would he be in God ,i mean inside God form?? Pierre Pierre, he existed with the nature of God and then was found in human nature. There are 2 natures here, and we also know that there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Remember this. Jesus became one of us, so we could eventually become like him.

T8……Ask yourself what it the (IT) mentioned there, is (IT) a spirit or is (IT) a BODY of flesh as Jesus' resurected Body was.

peace and love…………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2011,00:01)

T8…….> When Paul wrote that,  Jesus did not exist on earth any longer, but he “HAD” “EXISTED”  (past tense) on earth with the nature of GOD, BEFORE he ascended,  GET IT?. Paul was not addressing any “PRIOR” earth existence at all, he was talking about his Past (EARTH) EXISTENCE>  Paul was showing them what Jesus was like when he (EXISTED) ON EARTH, not before that. ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS HAVE THE “NATURE” OF GOD (IN) THEM ALSO Just like Jesus did when he was on earth and we need to humble ourselves as Jesus did. That was Paul's point nothing more. IMO peace and love……………………..gene

gene

we not all have the nature of Christ;

Jn 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Ac 8:5 Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Christ there.
Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women

Ro 1:6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
Ro 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:

Ro 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Ro 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro 5:11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Ro 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Ro 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Ro 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Ro 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Ro 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

so it is an aquired gift that all men recieves but not all men appreciate the gift,

men have there own view of what they want,so they fail to accept the gift of live that is offert to them by God trough Christ.

so as James says;Jas 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

1Th 1:3 We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:3 We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing.
2Th 1:4 Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring

so this is our faith as christians ,to overcome the world,just like Christ did.always at work.

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2011,00:15)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2011,17:00) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 13 2011,12:04) T8 the statement in this scripture “in the form of God” what does it mean?? is it his physical form ,like a form separated from God but in the similar form ?? or would he be in God ,i mean inside God form?? Pierre Pierre, he existed with the nature of God and then was found in human nature. There are 2 natures here, and we also know that there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Remember this. Jesus became one of us, so we could eventually become like him. T8……Ask yourself what it the (IT) mentioned there, is (IT) a spirit or is (IT) a BODY of flesh as Jesus' resurected Body was. peace and love…………………………gene

gene

ask you first ;what is sown natural and that become spiritual ?? this answer ,will answer your question.

Pierre

[Author]

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