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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 07 2011,16:15) T8…….saying you can't empty yourself of some thing is not true , for instance if i were a general of a large army , could i empty myself of the and take on the role of a common solider, yes i could and Jesus could do the same that does not make him a preexistence anything, it just represents his attitude of the loving nature of God in him for us and GOD. You can not prove any preexistence from those verses at all. T8 be careful you also are attempting to (SEPARATE) JESUS' identity from us and causing a separation in his relationship with us. Jesus is said to be a son of man 87 times in scriptures He is also said to be the son of GOD and We Are also said to be sons of GOD to. You should not try to separate Jesus from your own identity as a fellow human being. IMO
You can empty yourself of what was full beforehand.Jesus existed in the form of God/nature of God. I don't say this, scripture does. After emptying himself, he was found with human nature.
Seems pretty straightforward.
Nature of God > Emptying > Nature of man.
And look at what happened later.Nature of man > Glory of God
He was resurrected back to the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun.
Again, straightforward stuff.
And so it is with us.
First there is the physical body and then the spiritual.
Let's recap.
Nature of God > Emptying > Nature of man > Humility > Death > back to the glory he had before the world began.
Can your intellect comprehend this? If not, then I suggest that you have a few doctrines that get in the way similar to what happens with Trinitarians.Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,03:06) Hi Mike and Irene: You say Jesus “emptied himself” prior to becoming a man. What does that mean? Emptied himself in what way or of what?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Nature of God > Emptying > Nature of man > Humility > Death > Resurrection -back to the glory he had before the world began.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 08 2011,14:39) Jesus plainly said he could do NOTHING of HIMSELF, even when he was on the earth so where did he some how change his “Nature” and was morphed into a human being
Hi Gene,That's what I'm asking YOU!
It says he was existing in the form of God, but then emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being.I know you like to point out that it could be “nature of God” instead of “form of God”, but we both agree he never emptied himself of the nature of God, right? So “nature” is pretty much out of the question, don't you think?
Think ONLY about the last line, Gene: “was made into the likeness of a human being”. Exactly WHEN was Jesus made into the likeness of a human being, Gene?
You say he emptied himself after his baptism at the Jordan, right? So are you saying that Jesus was made into the likeness of a human being AFTER he was already 30 years old? What likeness was he in before that…………..a dog or something?
But let's also consider the other side of the “Gene coin”. You say Jesus became a human being when he was born of Mary. And if that's the case, he would have had to been in the form of God and emptied himself before he was even born, right?
How could an as yet non-existent person be “in the form of God” or “empty himself” of anything?
mike
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,15:48) The series of verses you quoted to support Jesus' preexistence are purely the interpretations of NT writers out of their Christological terminology but they are not supported by any of the scriptures in Hebrew Bible.
Hi Adam,You're entitled to your beliefs as much as anyone else, I guess. I take ALL of the scriptures as divinely inspired of God, and you take only the ones that fit in good with your doctrines.
How fortunate for you to be able to just dismiss the scriptures that teach things you don't PERSONALLY agree with.
Gene adds his own words into the scriptures to make them fit into his doctrine, while you just pretend the ones that disagree with you are bogus. Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,15:48) Jesus was no where mentioned in the context of creation of God in the Hebrew Bible. It is purely the invention of Christian writers to fit Jesus in the lone creation of God.
Who do YOU think the “US” and “OUR” is in Genesis 1:26, Adam?And how does your purely monotheistic Hebrew approach address these scriptures:
Ex 21:6 NIV
then his master must take him before the judges.The word translated as “judges” is the word “elohim” – the same exact word used of YHVH and translated as “God” many times in scripture. How about this one:
Psalm 82:1
Elohim stands in the company of El, in the midst of elohim he judges.Adam, how can God stand in the company of gods and judge the other gods if there are no other gods at all? And one more:
Psalm 138:1
I will thank You with my whole heart; I will sing praise to You before the gods.Is King David is saying something similar to, “Dear wife, I'm singing your praises in front of a bunch of prostitutes.”?
Actually, he is probably pointing at the kings of the earth he mentions in verse 4, who are here called “elohim”, just like our ONE God is called.
Adam, I have many more occurances of elohim who are NOT YHVH in your trusted Hebrew scriptures. I think you need to understand the word “elohim” and how it was used and WHO it was used for a little better before making claims that the Hebrews only taught of ONE elohim. Because that false assumption on your part is leading you to claim that the NT writers were jaded by the Gnostics of their day when they mentioned more than one god. And that is an unsubstantiated claim against these disciples of Jesus.
How we use the word “God” today is NOT how the words “elohim” and “theos” were used in Biblical times.
mike
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,03:04) Hi Mike: He was on earth as The Christ the Son of the Living God. Is that not a higher status than any ordinary man?
Here is an example:
Quote Matthew 9:2And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy;Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. 3And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7And he arose, and departed to his house.
8But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
And so, was he not in the form of God in his position as God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,The events of the passage you quoted took place well into Jesus' ministry on earth. So at what point did Jesus finally “empty himself” of, as YOU put it, “the form of God in his position as God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ”?
When did he empty himself of being God's only begotten Son and His Christ? When did he empty himself of the ability to forgive sins on earth – since you list that as an explanation of when he was “in the form of God”? If forgiving sins was an example of when he was in the “form of God”, when did he EMPTY HIMSELF of this “form of God”?
And finally, when was he made in the likeness of a human being? Because according to the scripture, things happened in a particular order:
1. Existed in form of God
2. Emptied himself
3. Made into likeness of human being.peace and love,
mikeQuote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,03:06) Hi Mike and Irene: You say Jesus “emptied himself” prior to becoming a man. What does that mean? Emptied himself in what way or of what?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,Jesus had the most cushy position of all of God's creations. He was beside his God and Father all day every day in heaven. He was there while his Father created the other spirit beings and the heavens and the earth and all the things in them. He probably even had some input with his God concerning the shapes and colors and physical properties and atomic structures of the creations God made.
You've heard that no eye has seen and no ear has heard the wonders God has awaiting His faithful? Well, Jesus lived among these kind of unheard and unseen wonders every day of his life.
Yet when his God and Father asked him to become a sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins – he obliged willingly.
Imagine this Marty: Jesus was the second most powerful being in existence. He watched while his God created all of the others. He could wipe out the entire earth with one swat of his hand, much like we do to mosquitos. He was in the form of his God – a spirit being of unfathomable power and intelligence. And now he was asked to not only give up this prestiged existence and position and glory to take on a much more limited existence as a human being………….but also to suffer ridicule, torture and death at the hands of these primitive beings who must have seemed to him like a mosquito seems to us. AND YET HE WILLINGLY DID IT.
He emptied himself of the wonderful existence he was enjoying as a powerful, unconstrained spirit being with glory beside the Creator of all things who just happened to be his Dad………….and was made in the likeness of a human being.
Marty, I hope you think about this. I hope you can see that this is the kind of mind we must also have towards others. We must be willing to give up all we have, including our lives, for each other – just as Jesus did for us. And THAT is what Paul teaches in Phil 2.
And Paul didn't just talk the talk, he walked the walk. He gave up his own prestigious standing in the community. He balked at his own Roman citizenship. He walked away from being a respected Pharisee.Marty, he too made himself of no account for the benefit of other human beings. And he was also obedient unto death.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,09:31) You're entitled to your beliefs as much as anyone else, I guess. I take ALL of the scriptures as divinely inspired of God, and you take only the ones that fit in good with your doctrines. How fortunate for you to be able to just dismiss the scriptures that teach things you don't PERSONALLY agree with. Gene adds his own words into the scriptures to make them fit into his doctrine, while you just pretend the ones that disagree with you are bogus.
General statement:
It is truly a delight to find someone who lets scripture teach them rather than fit scripture into what they want to believe and hear.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,10:04) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,03:06) Hi Mike and Irene: You say Jesus “emptied himself” prior to becoming a man. What does that mean? Emptied himself in what way or of what?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,Jesus had the most cushy position of all of God's creations. He was beside his God and Father all day every day in heaven. He was there while his Father created the other spirit beings and the heavens and the earth and all the things in them. He probably even had some input with his God concerning the shapes and colors and physical properties and atomic structures of the creations God made.
You've heard that no eye has seen and no ear has heard the wonders God has awaiting His faithful? Well, Jesus lived among these kind of unheard and unseen wonders every day of his life.
Yet when his God and Father asked him to become a sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins – he obliged willingly.
Imagine this Marty: Jesus was the second most powerful being in existence. He watched while his God created all of the others. He could wipe out the entire earth with one swat of his hand, much like we do to mosquitos. He was in the form of his God – a spirit being of unfathomable power and intelligence. And now he was asked to not only give up this prestiged existence and position and glory to take on a much more limited existence as a human being………….but also to suffer ridicule, torture and death at the hands of these primitive beings who must have seemed to him like a mosquito seems to us. AND YET HE WILLINGLY DID IT.
He emptied himself of the wonderful existence he was enjoying as a powerful, unconstrained spirit being with glory beside the Creator of all things who just happened to be his Dad………….and was made in the likeness of a human being.
Marty, I hope you think about this. I hope you can see that this is the kind of mind we must also have towards others. We must be willing to give up all we have, including our lives, for each other – just as Jesus did for us. And THAT is what Paul teaches in Phil 2.
And Paul didn't just talk the talk, he walked the walk. He gave up his own prestigious standing in the community. He balked at his own Roman citizenship. He walked away from being a respected Pharisee.Marty, he too made himself of no account for the benefit of other human beings. And he was also obedient unto death.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:What you are stating is pure speculation.
And to answer your question as to when Jesus emptied himself of his authority to forgive sins, the answer is that I did not say that he emptied himself. The scripture states that he did not make himself any reputation because of his God given authority, but he became like any other ordinary man and humbled himself and obeyed God even unto death on the cross.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,09:31) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,15:48) The series of verses you quoted to support Jesus' preexistence are purely the interpretations of NT writers out of their Christological terminology but they are not supported by any of the scriptures in Hebrew Bible.
Hi Adam,You're entitled to your beliefs as much as anyone else, I guess. I take ALL of the scriptures as divinely inspired of God, and you take only the ones that fit in good with your doctrines.
How fortunate for you to be able to just dismiss the scriptures that teach things you don't PERSONALLY agree with.
Gene adds his own words into the scriptures to make them fit into his doctrine, while you just pretend the ones that disagree with you are bogus. Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,15:48) Jesus was no where mentioned in the context of creation of God in the Hebrew Bible. It is purely the invention of Christian writers to fit Jesus in the lone creation of God.
Who do YOU think the “US” and “OUR” is in Genesis 1:26, Adam?And how does your purely monotheistic Hebrew approach address these scriptures:
Ex 21:6 NIV
then his master must take him before the judges.The word translated as “judges” is the word “elohim” – the same exact word used of YHVH and translated as “God” many times in scripture. How about this one:
Psalm 82:1
Elohim stands in the company of El, in the midst of elohim he judges.Adam, how can God stand in the company of gods and judge the other gods if there are no other gods at all? And one more:
Psalm 138:1
I will thank You with my whole heart; I will sing praise to You before the gods.Is King David is saying something similar to, “Dear wife, I'm singing your praises in front of a bunch of prostitutes.”?
Actually, he is probably pointing at the kings of the earth he mentions in verse 4, who are here called “elohim”, just like our ONE God is called.
Adam, I have many more occurances of elohim who are NOT YHVH in your trusted Hebrew scriptures. I think you need to understand the word “elohim” and how it was used and WHO it was used for a little better before making claims that the Hebrews only taught of ONE elohim. Because that false assumption on your part is leading you to claim that the NT writers were jaded by the Gnostics of their day when they mentioned more than one god. And that is an unsubstantiated claim against these disciples of Jesus.
How we use the word “God” today is NOT how the words “elohim” and “theos” were used in Biblical times.
mike
Hi brother Mike,
Thanks again for your response on my previous post. You blame me for taking scriptures as for my will and wish but I want to ask you what right those NT writers had to alter God's word by taking them out of their original context to prove their dogma. In fact all the NT writings were not at all considered scriptures till second Christian century but not by the authors of NT writings.So you blame those writers who took God's word by bits and parts to prove their ideas.You went back to basics of Hebrew scriptures by quoting Gen 1:26 which is often quoted by Trinitarians to prove Trinity. I don't think you are going in that trap. If you assume Jesus was there in that “Let Us” then also claim Holy Spirit was also there in those other verses where such words “Let Us” appear in the OT. You can also claim that Jesus was one among the three men appeared to Abraham in the plains of Mamre.
The Hebrew words 'Elohim' and 'El' were certainly used for angels, human judges, kings etc but it doesn't mean they were all possessing divinity and form of God as you claim for Jesus in the NT. They never ceased to be their own when they were referred as Elohim. Even Moses and Pharaoh were also called as Elohim but they never ceased to be what they were. I am arguing here what Christianity made fuss about Jesus who was never mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.
Please go through this links on Gen 1:26;
1. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Orthodox-Judaism-952/Genesis-1-26-say.htm
2. http://www.outreachjudaism.org/genesis1-26.html
3. http://ourfathersheart.org/j/discussions/us_god_christ.htmFor use of word “Elohim” these links;
1. http://www.trinity-controversy.com/ELOHIM.htm
2. http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.p….mid=505
3. http://moshiach-truth.blogspot.com/2008….rm.htmlPeace to you
AdamQuote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,13:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,10:04) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,03:06) Hi Mike and Irene: You say Jesus “emptied himself” prior to becoming a man. What does that mean? Emptied himself in what way or of what?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,Jesus had the most cushy position of all of God's creations. He was beside his God and Father all day every day in heaven. He was there while his Father created the other spirit beings and the heavens and the earth and all the things in them. He probably even had some input with his God concerning the shapes and colors and physical properties and atomic structures of the creations God made.
You've heard that no eye has seen and no ear has heard the wonders God has awaiting His faithful? Well, Jesus lived among these kind of unheard and unseen wonders every day of his life.
Yet when his God and Father asked him to become a sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins – he obliged willingly.
Imagine this Marty: Jesus was the second most powerful being in existence. He watched while his God created all of the others. He could wipe out the entire earth with one swat of his hand, much like we do to mosquitos. He was in the form of his God – a spirit being of unfathomable power and intelligence. And now he was asked to not only give up this prestiged existence and position and glory to take on a much more limited existence as a human being………….but also to suffer ridicule, torture and death at the hands of these primitive beings who must have seemed to him like a mosquito seems to us. AND YET HE WILLINGLY DID IT.
He emptied himself of the wonderful existence he was enjoying as a powerful, unconstrained spirit being with glory beside the Creator of all things who just happened to be his Dad………….and was made in the likeness of a human being.
Marty, I hope you think about this. I hope you can see that this is the kind of mind we must also have towards others. We must be willing to give up all we have, including our lives, for each other – just as Jesus did for us. And THAT is what Paul teaches in Phil 2.
And Paul didn't just talk the talk, he walked the walk. He gave up his own prestigious standing in the community. He balked at his own Roman citizenship. He walked away from being a respected Pharisee.Marty, he too made himself of no account for the benefit of other human beings. And he was also obedient unto death.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:What you are stating is pure speculation.
And to answer your question as to when Jesus emptied himself of his authority to forgive sins, the answer is that I did not say that he emptied himself. The scripture states that he did not make himself any reputation because of his God given authority, but he became like any other ordinary man and humbled himself and obeyed God even unto death on the cross.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! You are interpreting that Scripture to your liking.
It does not say that Jesus emptied himself of His authority. He was in the form of God, and was made into the form and likeness of men.
I don't find it right of anyone to interpret so it comes ouit to their liking….. It says what it says, and it does not say His authority…..
Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Jesus was in the form of God, and did not think to be robbery to be equal with God. He was equal with God in a sense that He too was a Spirit.
verse 7 tells us that He took upon Him the form of a Servant, IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN……
Please don't make something else out of this, that is not what we are to do is it?
? Also take
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Ask yourself what Jesus is right now??? Is He not a Spirit being like His Father? To be sitting next to His Father on the throne IMO He has to be a Spirit being. And to that He asked his Father to go back to in verse 5 His glory He had before the world was, He now has again…Only better… IMO He has immortality, like His Father and will never die again…..
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Baker @ Feb. 10 2011,02:02) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,13:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,10:04) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,03:06) Hi Mike and Irene: You say Jesus “emptied himself” prior to becoming a man. What does that mean? Emptied himself in what way or of what?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,Jesus had the most cushy position of all of God's creations. He was beside his God and Father all day every day in heaven. He was there while his Father created the other spirit beings and the heavens and the earth and all the things in them. He probably even had some input with his God concerning the shapes and colors and physical properties and atomic structures of the creations God made.
You've heard that no eye has seen and no ear has heard the wonders God has awaiting His faithful? Well, Jesus lived among these kind of unheard and unseen wonders every day of his life.
Yet when his God and Father asked him to become a sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins – he obliged willingly.
Imagine this Marty: Jesus was the second most powerful being in existence. He watched while his God created all of the others. He could wipe out the entire earth with one swat of his hand, much like we do to mosquitos. He was in the form of his God – a spirit being of unfathomable power and intelligence. And now he was asked to not only give up this prestiged existence and position and glory to take on a much more limited existence as a human being………….but also to suffer ridicule, torture and death at the hands of these primitive beings who must have seemed to him like a mosquito seems to us. AND YET HE WILLINGLY DID IT.
He emptied himself of the wonderful existence he was enjoying as a powerful, unconstrained spirit being with glory beside the Creator of all things who just happened to be his Dad………….and was made in the likeness of a human being.
Marty, I hope you think about this. I hope you can see that this is the kind of mind we must also have towards others. We must be willing to give up all we have, including our lives, for each other – just as Jesus did for us. And THAT is what Paul teaches in Phil 2.
And Paul didn't just talk the talk, he walked the walk. He gave up his own prestigious standing in the community. He balked at his own Roman citizenship. He walked away from being a respected Pharisee.Marty, he too made himself of no account for the benefit of other human beings. And he was also obedient unto death.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:What you are stating is pure speculation.
And to answer your question as to when Jesus emptied himself of his authority to forgive sins, the answer is that I did not say that he emptied himself. The scripture states that he did not make himself any reputation because of his God given authority, but he became like any other ordinary man and humbled himself and obeyed God even unto death on the cross.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! You are interpreting that Scripture to your liking.
It does not say that Jesus emptied himself of His authority. He was in the form of God, and was made into the form and likeness of men.
I don't find it right of anyone to interpret so it comes ouit to their liking….. It says what it says, and it does not say His authority…..
Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Jesus was in the form of God, and did not think to be robbery to be equal with God. He was equal with God in a sense that He too was a Spirit.
verse 7 tells us that He took upon Him the form of a Servant, IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN……
Please don't make something else out of this, that is not what we are to do is it?
? Also take
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Ask yourself what Jesus is right now??? Is He not a Spirit being like His Father? To be sitting next to His Father on the throne IMO He has to be a Spirit being. And to that He asked his Father to go back to in verse 5 His glory He had before the world was, He now has again…Only better… IMO He has immortality, like His Father and will never die again…..
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene:You are not reading what is being said, but are simply reacting based on your pre-conceived idea that Jesus pre-existed his birth into this world.
I did not say that Jesus emptied himself of this authority to forgive sins. The scripture states that he did not make himself any reputation because of his unique postion of God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ.
You said he emptied himself before he became a man. And so, of what did he empty himself. Irene. What are you talking about here?
As for what Jesus is now, he is a man who now has a spirtual body, and he is eternal.
Love in Christ,
MartyNo Marty, I am reading the Scriptures just the way they are written….So you believe that Jesus has a Spiritual Body now, but you don't believe what Jesus said? look what He did say in
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus had that glory which He has now. also before the world was. And you just said that He does have a Spiritual Body now, which Jesus asked His Father to give Him.
Peace and love IreneQuote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,13:51) The scripture states that he did not make himself any reputation because of his God given authority, but he became like any other ordinary man and humbled himself and obeyed God even unto death on the cross.
Hi Marty,The scripture ACTUALLY states that Jesus existed in the form of God, then made himself of no reputation and was made in the likeness of a human being.
Quote but he became like any other ordinary man and humbled himself and obeyed God even unto death on the cross.
Marty, you keep saying this same thing in different ways………..and I keep asking the same point about it.WHEN exactly was Jesus NOT like “any other ordinary man” to the point that he had to change and BECOME like “any other ordinary man”?
When did he HAVE a reputation of being MORE THAN an ordinary man so that he had to make himself of no reputation to BECOME like ordinary men?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2011,14:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,09:31) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,15:48) The series of verses you quoted to support Jesus' preexistence are purely the interpretations of NT writers out of their Christological terminology but they are not supported by any of the scriptures in Hebrew Bible.
Hi Adam,You're entitled to your beliefs as much as anyone else, I guess. I take ALL of the scriptures as divinely inspired of God, and you take only the ones that fit in good with your doctrines.
How fortunate for you to be able to just dismiss the scriptures that teach things you don't PERSONALLY agree with.
Gene adds his own words into the scriptures to make them fit into his doctrine, while you just pretend the ones that disagree with you are bogus. Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,15:48) Jesus was no where mentioned in the context of creation of God in the Hebrew Bible. It is purely the invention of Christian writers to fit Jesus in the lone creation of God.
Who do YOU think the “US” and “OUR” is in Genesis 1:26, Adam?And how does your purely monotheistic Hebrew approach address these scriptures:
Ex 21:6 NIV
then his master must take him before the judges.The word translated as “judges” is the word “elohim” – the same exact word used of YHVH and translated as “God” many times in scripture. How about this one:
Psalm 82:1
Elohim stands in the company of El, in the midst of elohim he judges.Adam, how can God stand in the company of gods and judge the other gods if there are no other gods at all? And one more:
Psalm 138:1
I will thank You with my whole heart; I will sing praise to You before the gods.Is King David is saying something similar to, “Dear wife, I'm singing your praises in front of a bunch of prostitutes.”?
Actually, he is probably pointing at the kings of the earth he mentions in verse 4, who are here called “elohim”, just like our ONE God is called.
Adam, I have many more occurances of elohim who are NOT YHVH in your trusted Hebrew scriptures. I think you need to understand the word “elohim” and how it was used and WHO it was used for a little better before making claims that the Hebrews only taught of ONE elohim. Because that false assumption on your part is leading you to claim that the NT writers were jaded by the Gnostics of their day when they mentioned more than one god. And that is an unsubstantiated claim against these disciples of Jesus.
How we use the word “God” today is NOT how the words “elohim” and “theos” were used in Biblical times.
mike
Hi brother Mike,
Thanks again for your response on my previous post. You blame me for taking scriptures as for my will and wish but I want to ask you what right those NT writers had to alter God's word by taking them out of their original context to prove their dogma. In fact all the NT writings were not at all considered scriptures till second Christian century but not by the authors of NT writings.So you blame those writers who took God's word by bits and parts to prove their ideas.You went back to basics of Hebrew scriptures by quoting Gen 1:26 which is often quoted by Trinitarians to prove Trinity. I don't think you are going in that trap. If you assume Jesus was there in that “Let Us” then also claim Holy Spirit was also there in those other verses where such words “Let Us” appear in the OT. You can also claim that Jesus was one among the three men appeared to Abraham in the plains of Mamre.
The Hebrew words 'Elohim' and 'El' were certainly used for angels, human judges, kings etc but it doesn't mean they were all possessing divinity and form of God as you claim for Jesus in the NT. They never ceased to be their own when they were referred as Elohim. Even Moses and Pharaoh were also called as Elohim but they never ceased to be what they were. I am arguing here what Christianity made fuss about Jesus who was never mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.
Please go through this links on Gen 1:26;
1. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Orthodox-Judaism-952/Genesis-1-26-say.htm
2. http://www.outreachjudaism.org/genesis1-26.html
3. http://ourfathersheart.org/j/discussions/us_god_christ.htmFor use of word “Elohim” these links;
1. http://www.trinity-controversy.com/ELOHIM.htm
2. http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.p….mid=505
3. http://moshiach-truth.blogspot.com/2008….rm.htmlPeace to you
Adam
Adam! What I find si interesting about your believe system is, that you believe everyone else. but the Word of God in the Bible. That my friend is just behind my understanding. Why? Is the Bible not good enough for you, and rather believe the Jews who killed our Savior? Now that is about the craziest thing I heard in a long long time…… I will believe The Word Of GOD any time over you or any men for that matter….And to come here and teach that, is against a Christian……You then don't belong here….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2011,14:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,09:31) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,15:48) The series of verses you quoted to support Jesus' preexistence are purely the interpretations of NT writers out of their Christological terminology but they are not supported by any of the scriptures in Hebrew Bible.
Hi Adam,You're entitled to your beliefs as much as anyone else, I guess. I take ALL of the scriptures as divinely inspired of God, and you take only the ones that fit in good with your doctrines.
How fortunate for you to be able to just dismiss the scriptures that teach things you don't PERSONALLY agree with.
Gene adds his own words into the scriptures to make them fit into his doctrine, while you just pretend the ones that disagree with you are bogus. Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,15:48) Jesus was no where mentioned in the context of creation of God in the Hebrew Bible. It is purely the invention of Christian writers to fit Jesus in the lone creation of God.
Who do YOU think the “US” and “OUR” is in Genesis 1:26, Adam?And how does your purely monotheistic Hebrew approach address these scriptures:
Ex 21:6 NIV
then his master must take him before the judges.The word translated as “judges” is the word “elohim” – the same exact word used of YHVH and translated as “God” many times in scripture. How about this one:
Psalm 82:1
Elohim stands in the company of El, in the midst of elohim he judges.Adam, how can God stand in the company of gods and judge the other gods if there are no other gods at all? And one more:
Psalm 138:1
I will thank You with my whole heart; I will sing praise to You before the gods.Is King David is saying something similar to, “Dear wife, I'm singing your praises in front of a bunch of prostitutes.”?
Actually, he is probably pointing at the kings of the earth he mentions in verse 4, who are here called “elohim”, just like our ONE God is called.
Adam, I have many more occurances of elohim who are NOT YHVH in your trusted Hebrew scriptures. I think you need to understand the word “elohim” and how it was used and WHO it was used for a little better before making claims that the Hebrews only taught of ONE elohim. Because that false assumption on your part is leading you to claim that the NT writers were jaded by the Gnostics of their day when they mentioned more than one god. And that is an unsubstantiated claim against these disciples of Jesus.
How we use the word “God” today is NOT how the words “elohim” and “theos” were used in Biblical times.
mike
Hi brother Mike,
Thanks again for your response on my previous post. You blame me for taking scriptures as for my will and wish but I want to ask you what right those NT writers had to alter God's word by taking them out of their original context to prove their dogma. In fact all the NT writings were not at all considered scriptures till second Christian century but not by the authors of NT writings.So you blame those writers who took God's word by bits and parts to prove their ideas.You went back to basics of Hebrew scriptures by quoting Gen 1:26 which is often quoted by Trinitarians to prove Trinity. I don't think you are going in that trap. If you assume Jesus was there in that “Let Us” then also claim Holy Spirit was also there in those other verses where such words “Let Us” appear in the OT. You can also claim that Jesus was one among the three men appeared to Abraham in the plains of Mamre.
The Hebrew words 'Elohim' and 'El' were certainly used for angels, human judges, kings etc but it doesn't mean they were all possessing divinity and form of God as you claim for Jesus in the NT. They never ceased to be their own when they were referred as Elohim. Even Moses and Pharaoh were also called as Elohim but they never ceased to be what they were. I am arguing here what Christianity made fuss about Jesus who was never mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.
Please go through this links on Gen 1:26;
1. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Orthodox-Judaism-952/Genesis-1-26-say.htm
2. http://www.outreachjudaism.org/genesis1-26.html
3. http://ourfathersheart.org/j/discussions/us_god_christ.htmFor use of word “Elohim” these links;
1. http://www.trinity-controversy.com/ELOHIM.htm
2. http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.p….mid=505
3. http://moshiach-truth.blogspot.com/2008….rm.htmlPeace to you
Adam
So Adam, you believe that Christ did not come yet, like the Jewish people do? Is that what you are teaching here by giving us this website? I will not go there. I will not believe the Jews. I will believe The Word of God anytime over any men. And that includes you…..
Peace IreneHi Adam,
Do you even believe that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit?
Do you believe him to be the promised Messiah?
Do you believe him to be our Lord and Savior, who God has appointed as King of kings and Lord of lords?
By the way, I checked out the “elohim” sites, and I liked them very much. I did a debate with Jack on this plural word a while ago, and it was nice to see my research and arguments reaffirmed by others. None of them mentioned one of my favorite points though. Nebuchadnezzar and Artaxerxes were both called the KINGS of kings. And the first plural word KINGS in that phrase wasn't because they were plural beings…………..it was because they were each being called a Majestic King – higher than the other kings.
I know that “elohim” doesn't imply a plural God and I argue strongly against any trinity. We all have one God, the Father. But he DOES have a Son who He installed as King on Zion……….your OT says so in Psalm 2:7.
And your OT also says the Messiah's origins were from ancient times. (Micah 5:2) And it says this about him 700 years BEFORE Jesus came in the flesh.
So even if you Jews were right and the Messiah has not yet come (which you're not), you will still have to deal with the fact that the coming Messiah has already existed for thousands of years.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,14:21) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,13:51) The scripture states that he did not make himself any reputation because of his God given authority, but he became like any other ordinary man and humbled himself and obeyed God even unto death on the cross.
Hi Marty,The scripture ACTUALLY states that Jesus existed in the form of God, then made himself of no reputation and was made in the likeness of a human being.
Quote but he became like any other ordinary man and humbled himself and obeyed God even unto death on the cross.
Marty, you keep saying this same thing in different ways………..and I keep asking the same point about it.WHEN exactly was Jesus NOT like “any other ordinary man” to the point that he had to change and BECOME like “any other ordinary man”?
When did he HAVE a reputation of being MORE THAN an ordinary man so that he had to make himself of no reputation to BECOME like ordinary men?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:I already showed you how that in his authority as God's Christ he was in the form of God. That does not mean that he was not a man at that time, he was that, but he was not just any ordinary man he is the Only Begotten Son of God, and God's Christ. How many men do you know can make this claim?
This is how the KJV has it:
Phil 2:7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
I understand this to say that although he was a man in the form of God by virtue of his God given authority, he did not seek to make himself a reputation because of his position in the body of Christ, but he took on the role of a servant, and “was made in the likeness of men”, I can only understand to mean that he did not distinguish himself from any other man. For example, he ate with sinners, and he washed the disciples feet.
The Apostle Paul did not intend to teach a Pre-existent Jesus by these scriptures. He was teaching the church about humility, and he was using the life of Jesus as an example. Jesus did not exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world.
Mike, this is the way that I understand this, and I don't see any way that you can show that he pre-existed his birth into this world, and I do not see any where in the scriptures that Jesus indicated that I should go and teach the world that he pre-existed his birth into this world, and so I won't.
I have a witness in my heart that he exists now, and by this I know that he gave his life for me that I might have the priviledge and honor of being a son of the Most High God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Baker @ Feb. 10 2011,08:52) No Marty, I am reading the Scriptures just the way they are written….So you believe that Jesus has a Spiritual Body now, but you don't believe what Jesus said? look what He did say in Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus had that glory which He has now. also before the world was. And you just said that He does have a Spiritual Body now, which Jesus asked His Father to give Him.
Peace and love Irene
Hi Irene:The following scripture explains what Jesus meant by saying “glorify thou me with thine ownself with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”.
John 17:24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me:for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
In other words, God had forseen that Jesus would be glorified prior to the foundation of the world, and so Jesus had this glory at that time only it had to be manifested at this particular point in time.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (t8 @ Feb. 09 2011,08:12) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,03:06) Hi Mike and Irene: You say Jesus “emptied himself” prior to becoming a man. What does that mean? Emptied himself in what way or of what?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Nature of God > Emptying > Nature of man > Humility > Death > Resurrection -back to the glory he had before the world began.
Hi t8:I have already showed that he was in the form of God in his ministry here on earth as God's Christ.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2011,13:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,14:21) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2011,13:51) The scripture states that he did not make himself any reputation because of his God given authority, but he became like any other ordinary man and humbled himself and obeyed God even unto death on the cross.
Hi Marty,The scripture ACTUALLY states that Jesus existed in the form of God, then made himself of no reputation and was made in the likeness of a human being.
Quote but he became like any other ordinary man and humbled himself and obeyed God even unto death on the cross.
Marty, you keep saying this same thing in different ways………..and I keep asking the same point about it.WHEN exactly was Jesus NOT like “any other ordinary man” to the point that he had to change and BECOME like “any other ordinary man”?
When did he HAVE a reputation of being MORE THAN an ordinary man so that he had to make himself of no reputation to BECOME like ordinary men?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:I already showed you how that in his authority as God's Christ he was in the form of God. That does not mean that he was not a man at that time, he was that, but he was not just any ordinary man he is the Only Begotten Son of God, and God's Christ. How many men do you know can make this claim?
This is how the KJV has it:
Phil 2:7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
I understand this to say that although he was a man in the form of God by virtue of his God given authority, he did not seek to make himself a reputation because of his position in the body of Christ, but he took on the role of a servant, and “was made in the likeness of men”, I can only understand to mean that he did not distinguish himself from any other man. For example, he ate with sinners, and he washed the disciples feet.
The Apostle Paul did not intend to teach a Pre-existent Jesus by these scriptures. He was teaching the church about humility, and he was using the life of Jesus as an example. Jesus did not exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world.
Mike, this is the way that I understand this, and I don't see any way that you can show that he pre-existed his birth into this world, and I do not see any where in the scriptures that Jesus indicated that I should go and teach the world that he pre-existed his birth into this world, and so I won't.
I have a witness in my heart that he exists now, and by this I know that he gave his life for me that I might have the priviledge and honor of being a son of the Most High God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty…………You have it right brother.peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
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