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Mike……….What you people are claiming is not scripturally True at all, your taking it out of context as i and other have said over and over. But because of you spiritual blindness you can't get it. Mike as far AS IRENE GOES That IS BESIDES THE POINT SHE TO ME IS TOTALLY Spiritually blind, but you may have a chance to come out of those false teachings if you just think about more.if you can get your moind around the fact the all Preexistence teaching are false teachings started by the Gnostic's . Jesus was a SON of MAN 87 times it is said that, when are you going to start to believe it. God was NOT dealing with a preexistent being and Perfecting Him but with a HUMAN BEING who came into existence as a human being. That is a good start to start with/ IMO
Mike you need to go back to my last post and this time think about it > IMO
peace and love…………………………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 06 2011,08:03) Hi Gene, Nothing you posted answers my point that I just restated to Marty. Nor does it answer Irene's point about first “emptying himself” and THEN “being made as a human being”.
You post scriptural truths that none of us have ever disagreed with, but you post them in such a way that it seems as if you're proving something to us that we argued against before.
Please don't do that. ONLY address what we DO claim. None of us have claimed that Jesus “emptied himself of being God's Son”.
mike
Hi brother Mike,
I think that Jesus emptied himself of his privileges of being God's son and in God's image and taken the form of a slave man who lost God's image. I think Paul must have not spoken about Jesus' so called divinity which God alone can possess. If we talk about Jesus' divinity in his so called preexistence it makes him another God besides God and it will be nothing but polytheism. Paul in fact talks about God exalting Jesus to the status which he never had earlier because of his humility being not utilizing his privileges of his son-ship and being in God's image. Jewish Messiah was never intended to be a god-man or God himself. If Christianity wants to retain its origins from True Monotheism we should understand Jesus in that context only.Thanks and peace to you
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 06 2011,01:12) Mike………. “FOR HE (JESUS) thought not to rob GOD by trying to make himself equal with Him”. This I also believe is the right rendering of those words. IMO
peace and love………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,Phil.2:4-6 Let this (HolySpirit) mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who,
being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself
of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:(Adjusted Google) This (HolySpirit) mind that is among you and in Christ Jesus:
exists in form of God and does not think it's robbery to be equal with God:
but himself no reputation took form of a servant in similitude of men,
being found and “will be”(63), in likeness as a man: (Lev.26:12)Lev.26:12 And I will walk among you, and “will be”(63)
your God(YHVH=63), and ye shall be my people.YHVH means: Causes to become
When Moses Asked YHVH His name, YHVH said:
[אהיה אשר אהיה] ěhyäh ăsher ěhyäh translates as…
“I will be what I will be” or “I will be that I will be“God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd1 This is not talking about God.s Holy Spirit. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus……but then it goes on, He was in the form of God. What form is God????Is God not Spirit? Yes, so was Jesus.
Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Next in verse 7 it says that He took on the form of men. It is so clear, and yet some of you want to make something else out of it…..Not only that, we have other Scriptures that tell us that Jesus was first of all, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
And Jesus said that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father that send Him……
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And then we have this Scripture in
Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The Jews questioned Him, that He seen Abraham and yet was not fifty years old…..plain to me….
The last Scripture Jesus says He wants His glory back which He had with His father before the world was. I ask you what is Jesus now? And remember flesh and blood cannot enter the literal Kingdom of God…..In Heaven….That is where Jesus is seated next to His Father who is a Spirit, just like Jesus…..
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Peace Irene
Quote (Baker @ Feb. 06 2011,20:00) Ed1 This is not talking about God.s Holy Spirit. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus……but then it goes on, He was in the form of God. What form is God????Is God not Spirit? Yes, so was Jesus. Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Next in verse 7 it says that He took on the form of men. It is so clear, and yet some of you want to make something else out of it…..Not only that, we have other Scriptures that tell us that Jesus was first of all, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
And Jesus said that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father that send Him……
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And then we have this Scripture in
Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The Jews questioned Him, that He seen Abraham and yet was not fifty years old…..plain to me….
The last Scripture Jesus says He wants His glory back which He had with His father before the world was. I ask you what is Jesus now? And remember flesh and blood cannot enter the literal Kingdom of God…..In Heaven….That is where Jesus is seated next to His Father who is a Spirit, just like Jesus…..
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Peace Irene
Hi Irene,Titus 2:13-14 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from
all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,
according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (1Thess.2:12)Titus 2:13-14 & Phil 3:21 are explained in 2Cor.5:16-18, 1John 3:2-11 & Luke 17:20-24.
2Cor.5:16-18 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though
we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed
away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath
reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. (Rom.14:19)1John 3:2-11 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever
committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him,
neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth
righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth
sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this
purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy
the works of the devil(the rudiments). Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.The only place you're going to see “Christ” (in this reality) is in others! (Luke 17:21)
Luke 17:20-24 And when he(Jesus) was demanded of the Pharisees,
when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of
the days(John 8:56) of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to
you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning,
that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part
under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. (Mark 13:25-34)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 06 2011,21:15) Quote (Baker @ Feb. 06 2011,20:00) Ed1 This is not talking about God.s Holy Spirit. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus……but then it goes on, He was in the form of God. What form is God????Is God not Spirit? Yes, so was Jesus. Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Next in verse 7 it says that He took on the form of men. It is so clear, and yet some of you want to make something else out of it…..Not only that, we have other Scriptures that tell us that Jesus was first of all, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
And Jesus said that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father that send Him……
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And then we have this Scripture in
Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The Jews questioned Him, that He seen Abraham and yet was not fifty years old…..plain to me….
The last Scripture Jesus says He wants His glory back which He had with His father before the world was. I ask you what is Jesus now? And remember flesh and blood cannot enter the literal Kingdom of God…..In Heaven….That is where Jesus is seated next to His Father who is a Spirit, just like Jesus…..
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Peace Irene
Hi Irene,Titus 2:13-14 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from
all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,
according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (1Thess.2:12)Titus 2:13-14 & Phil 3:21 are explained in 2Cor.5:16-18, 1John 3:2-11 & Luke 17:20-24.
2Cor.5:16-18 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though
we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed
away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath
reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. (Rom.14:19)1John 3:2-11 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever
committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him,
neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth
righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth
sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this
purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy
the works of the devil(the rudiments). Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.The only place you're going to see “Christ” (in this reality) is in others! (Luke 17:21)
Luke 17:20-24 And when he(Jesus) was demanded of the Pharisees,
when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of
the days(John 8:56) of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to
you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning,
that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part
under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. (Mark 13:25-34)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 06 2011,17:14) Jesus was a SON of MAN 87 times it is said that, when are you going to start to believe it.
You're doing it again, Gene.When did any of us say that Jesus was NOT the “Son of Man”? I hate it when you do this.
You should be answering how Jesus could have already BEEN a man when he was made in the likeness of a man.
But instead, you keep posting things we ALL agree with, but you post them in such a way as to imply we DON'T agree
with them, as if you are “teaching us” these things.We all know that Jesus came in the flesh. CAME, Gene. Not ONLY EXISTED. Therefore we all know that he was a man and the “Son of Man”. Tell me how that says he couldn't have been something other than man before. It doesn't.
mike
Hi Pierre,
I agree with what you posted…………..I just don't know why you posted it.
Hi Adam,
“there are MANY who are called gods……………..yet for us, there is but one God”.
Adam, I'm still waiting for any of you to explain how Jesus WAS already a human being at the time he was “made in the likeness of a human being”. Does that make sense to you?
peace and love
mikeMike………..Jesus was not a human being until he came into existence as one. He was in the plan and will of GOD from the foundations of the earth. When are you going to GET IT> Jesus was (FOREORDAINED) by GOD, “BUT” Came into existence (MANIFESTED) at the right time. When are you going to start believing what Peter and other have said. Your complicated “Morphed” or “Incarnate” theories derived from the GNOSTIC”S and Trinitarians of a Preexisting Jesus is simply a false teaching , God also said he “FOREKNEW US ALSO”, “FOR WHO HE FOREKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE MADE INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS DEAR SON”. Now does that mean we also “PREEXISTED OUR BERTH ON EARTH , after all it say HE “ALSO”, also like what?, (LIKE JESUS).
Again that is all your preexistence Doctrines do is work to SEPARATE JESUS FROM HIS BROTHERS AND TRUE SISTERS, But thanks be to GOD You will never be able to do that even though in you ignorance you trying to force it, but God is greater then you Preexistences are, rather you be a Gnostic's a Trinitarian or any other kind of Preexistence believer. Jesus did not give up any preexistent Glory or His godly Nature, he simply did not seek to be made equal with GOD not then, not now, nor will he afterwards either. And all who have this same Mind in them this same NATURE He had and has Should also not allow it to go to there head and rob GOD of His Glory either , but we should all humble ourselves just as Jesus our Brother Did. He was a perfect Example to all HUMANITY, Because He was a SON OF MAN who became a SON of GOD the exact same way we (ALSO) Can. NO different between Jesus and US who truly believe. IMO
peace and love………………………………………..gene
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 06 2011,18:06) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 06 2011,01:12) Mike………. “FOR HE (JESUS) thought not to rob GOD by trying to make himself equal with Him”. This I also believe is the right rendering of those words. IMO
peace and love………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,Phil.2:4-6 Let this (HolySpirit) mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who,
being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself
of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
EDJ………….I know it say it that way, but like is said years ago i did a through search on it and what some Scholars said it should have been rendered HE SOUGHT NOT TO ROB GOD BY MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD. It also know we are not to view the Godhead as gold and silver and such as precious things. Because we are made in the image of GOD already , But what i was saying had to do with a search i did years ago on that verse, that is all and i tend to believe it should be more accurately rendered that way, thats all.peace and love……………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 07 2011,02:49) Mike………..Jesus was not a human being until he came into existence as one.
Truer words have never been spoken, Gene.And since he came into existence as a human being when he was “made in the likeness of a human being”, that means the rest of Phil 2 happened BEFORE he was a human being. Get it?
He was “in the form of God” BEFORE he was “made in the likeness of a human being”.
He “emptied himself” BEFORE he was “made in the likeness of a human being”.
It's all right there for those of us who actually believe the scriptures.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,03:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 07 2011,02:49) Mike………..Jesus was not a human being until he came into existence as one.
Truer words have never been spoken, Gene.And since he came into existence as a human being when he was “made in the likeness of a human being”, that means the rest of Phil 2 happened BEFORE he was a human being. Get it?
He was “in the form of God” BEFORE he was “made in the likeness of a human being”.
He “emptied himself” BEFORE he was “made in the likeness of a human being”.
It's all right there for those of us who actually believe the scriptures.
mike
Hi Mike! Will Gene ever understand that we also believe that Jesus came in the flesh. Son of man and Son of God…..I don't think any of them ever agree with that Jesus first come forth from God.Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
To think this is Wisdom when it says that He was a master craftsman and daily His Fathers delight.
Pro 8:30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman.
And I was daily His delight.
Rejoicing always before Him…..
Can Wisdom be beside Him?? But I don't think they are going to get trhis either, when they don't get Phil.2…
Peace and Love IrenePeace Irene
Hi Irene,
Gene can't logically address the issues and scriptures we post, so instead he creates diversions like calling us Gnostics and Trinitarians and implying we don't believe Jesus was ever a man or that he is the Son of Man.
It is his way of avoiding the real issues and scriptures.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 06 2011,07:56) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 06 2011,07:45) But he did not let these facts go to his head, but emptied himself
And again Marty,If Jesus never HAD this conceited “I'm better than you” attitude in the first place, then he couldn't have “emptied himself” of it.
Get it? In order to “empty himself” OF something, he had to have had that something to start with.
mike
Hi Mike:What the scripture actually states:
Quote 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation
You and Irene choose the definition in Strong's condordance which states “emptied himself”, but strong concordance states:
Quote 1) to empty, make empty a) of Christ, he laid aside equality with or the form of God
2) to make void
a) deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect
3) to make void
b) cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 07 2011,02:49) Mike……….. God also said he “FOREKNEW US ALSO”, “FOR WHO HE FOREKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE MADE INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS DEAR SON”. Now does that mean we also “PREEXISTED OUR BERTH ON EARTH , after all it say HE “ALSO”, also like what?, (LIKE JESUS). IMO
peace and love………………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,I believe Romans 8:29 means we all existed in “spirit” form along with Jesus. (Compare 2Tm.1:9)
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to
the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 07 2011,03:04) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 06 2011,18:06) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 06 2011,01:12) Mike………. “FOR HE (JESUS) thought not to rob GOD by trying to make himself equal with Him”. This I also believe is the right rendering of those words. IMO
peace and love………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,
Phil.2:4-6 Let this (HolySpirit) mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who,
being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself
of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
EDJ………….I know it say it that way, but like is said years ago i did a through search on it and what some Scholars said it should have been rendered HE SOUGHT NOT TO ROB GOD BY MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD. It also know we are not to view the Godhead as gold and silver and such as precious things. Because we are made in the image of GOD already , But what i was saying had to do with a search i did years ago on that verse, that is all and i tend to believe it should be more accurately rendered that way, thats all.peace and love……………………………….gene
Hi Gene,What do you think of this rendering of Philippians 2:5-7, compared to the AKJV Bible?
(Adjusted Google) This (HolySpirit) mind that is among you and in Christ Jesus:
exists in form of God and does not think it's robbery to be equal with God:
but himself no reputation took form of a servant in similitude of men,
being found and “will be”(63), in likeness as a man: (Lev.26:12)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (942767 @ Feb. 07 2011,06:38)
Hi Mike:What the scripture actually states:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7But made himself of no reputation
Okay Marty. But still that doesn't answer my point. You can not “empty yourself” if you were never “full”, right?
You can not “make yourself of no reputation” if you didn't already have a reputation to start with.
Word it however you like, but the fact remains that one can not “lower himself” unless he was higher in the first place.
So what I'm asking is: WHEN did Jesus have the “grand reputation” before he “made himself of no reputation”?
mike
Marty! Not only that, what Mike said, but my KJ Bible says that He was in the form of God….. What form is God? He is a Spirit. AND WAS MADE INTO THE LIKENESS OF MEN…… This is what my KJ Bible says…..
Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 WHO BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD , thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, AND TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN;
Mike is right, you cannot make someone into, if he already is…..
And I just checked the NIV and it says this
Who in being very nature of God, something to be grasped, and made into human likeness….
The scripture in John 17:5 also tells us that he had a glory with His Father and asked Him to have that glory again, which He had before the world was…..ask yourself what is Jesus now? Is He not a Spirit being? Seated next to Almighty God on His Throne?
?Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Peace and Love Irene
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