Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 01 2011,12:01)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 01 2011,08:06)

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 01 2011,07:18)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 01 2011,06:54)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,04:38)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,04:34)

The glory is that which he received of God His Father when He brought him forth into this world as His Only Begotten Son and anointed him as His Christ, and savior of all mankind, and as his heir, and that he exalted him to His right hand as head of the church as Lord and Christ, and to be the judge of the Living and the dead.

God had forseen all of this before he created the world, and that is what is meant.

Hi Marty,

Sure, GOD had forseen all this. But how was Jesus aware of any “glory” he had before he even existed?

You say the glory is that which he received when he was brought into this world. But Jesus speaks of a glory he had before the world even existed.

mike

Hi Mike:

Let's take a look at the scriptures:

Jesus said:

Quote

Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

At the Age of 12, we see Jesus in the Synagogue discussing the scriptures with the scribes, and saying that he must be about His Father's business, and to the Pharisees he said, “Abraham desired to see my day, and he saw it and was glad”, and he said, “before Abraham was, I am”, and so, God showed him what his ministry would be after he was born into the world.

Note the scripture states: “I have glorified thee on earth, I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”

And then he says,“and now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self” (present tense) I believe here is speaking of his exaltation to the right hand of the Father as head of the church.

God had forseen that His plan for humanity would be fulfilled through his Son.

And so, to your question, Jesus knew because God showed him this after he was born into this world.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty! Are you not leaving some of that Scripture out?
Jesus wanted His glory back which He had with His Father before the world was, that is what you leave out.

And also this

Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

How in the world can you see something else in this Scripture?

He was there before Abraham was…..not in any mind or whatever, man that is what I call interpreting Scripture according to man… not God….

Peace Irene

No, Irene, Jesus did not say anything about wanting some of the glory back that he had with the Father before the world was. You are adding that word “back”. That is not what he said.

Jesus said: “Abraham desired to see my day and he saw it and was glad”. God had shown Abraham that through his seed all nations of the earth would be blessed, and when he tested Abraham with sacrificing Isaac on Mount Moriah, God provided a ram for the sacrifice. This was symbolic of God providing Jesus as the sacrifice through whom all nations of the earth would be blessed.

Abraham died in faith believing God's promises.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty!

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was….

AND NOW O FATHER GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF WITH THE GLORY WHICH I I I I (JESUS) HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
This is a Scripture I did not add this……

And Jesus also said this in

Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

What you are saying is right, however you don't want to believe that what Jesus said, it is not my saying it is Jesus saying…….Jesus said:” VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM……

This is not my saying, again, not my saying, I did not add anything….you are denying it…..Irene

BTW all Scriptures taken from the Blue letter Bible from the Internet. Copied and pasted…..

Hi Irene:

There is no use trying to convince you of something other than what you already seem to believe.

I do not believe that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world.

I have given you my understanding and that is the end of this discussion for me.

The only thing left for me to do is to pray and ask God to show us what is the truth regarding this matter.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 2, 2011 at 9:38 pm#235128

Participant

Marty! Good, praying to God for the truth is very good. Let me tell you something, I did not always believed that Jesus preexisted at one time either. But Georg and I started to look at those Scriptures which I gave you and others. There is no either being that fits Rev. 19:13-16, which then shows us that John1:1-14 is the same being, Jesus….We had to admit that we were wrong, so why is it that it is so hard for you to see?.
Please do yourself a favor and go to the preexisting debate tread that Mike started. There are some good Scriptures…..the one Scripture in Phil.2;5 would make no sense if Jesus did not existed before the world was. He emptied Himself.

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus was made in the likeness of men…..He was in the form of God…What form is God? I think you know that….

Peace Irene

February 3, 2011 at 4:42 pm#235220

Participant

Marty……..You have it right Jesus did (NOT) PREEXIST His berth on earth as a sentential being of any kind, he existed only in the Plan and Will of GOD, which he has for all mankind and Jesus was the (FIRST) to reach that Goal (FROM HUMANITY). You have it right brother don't let these deluded Preexistences deceive you, GOD has given you the Truth Hang on to it. Remember it say the whole world lies in deception and that is the truth, Nearly all Christendom believe in the Preexistence of Jesus before his berth on earth rather a person is a Trinitarian a Protestant , they all come from their fathers the Gnostic's and they teach their same LIE and form of religions also. IMO

peace and love…………………………………gene

February 3, 2011 at 5:22 pm#235223

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2011,02:42)

peace and love…………………………………gene

The whole world is deluded, with one exception, gene, right?

I know, you not only have the tree of knowledge in your back yard, your swinging from it.

Georg

February 3, 2011 at 5:39 pm#235227

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2011,02:42)

peace and love…………………………………gene

Hi Gene:

We know this, but when we have done every thing that we can to show the truth, the only thing left to do is pray.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 3, 2011 at 6:30 pm#235235

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 03 2011,07:38)

Marty! Good, praying to God for the truth is very good. Let me tell you something, I did not always believed that Jesus preexisted at one time either.

Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

Then by Proof of your words you “could” be wrong about other things as well; right?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 3, 2011 at 6:44 pm#235236

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 04 2011,11:30)

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 03 2011,07:38)

Marty! Good, praying to God for the truth is very good. Let me tell you something, I did not always believed that Jesus preexisted at one time either.

Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

Then by Proof of your words you “could” be wrong about other things as well; right?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

how come it is always others that have to prove to you,you are declaring that you are horse ridding,so you not really believe and yet you believe some,

so you either hot or cold,that bad,scriptures says.

it is better to be like Gene totally blind than half blind mean spiritually.

Pierre

February 4, 2011 at 4:34 am#235292

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 04 2011,04:30)

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 03 2011,07:38)

Marty! Good, praying to God for the truth is very good. Let me tell you something, I did not always believed that Jesus preexisted at one time either.

Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

Then by Proof of your words you “could” be wrong about other things as well; right?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed! Don't jump too conclusion……That was a long time ago. When you make a remark like that, you need to be show me what you mean……Are you perfect??? Do you know it all? I guess you think you do, Mr, Perfect……

Irene

February 4, 2011 at 7:14 am#235304

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 04 2011,14:34)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 04 2011,04:30)

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 03 2011,07:38)

Marty! Good, praying to God for the truth is very good. Let me tell you something, I did not always believed that Jesus preexisted at one time either.

Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

Then by Proof of your words you “could” be wrong about other things as well; right?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed! Don't jump too conclusion……That was a long time ago. When you make a remark like that, you need to be show me what you mean……(1)Are you perfect??? (2)Do you know it all? (3)I guess you think you do, Mr, Perfect……

Irene

Hi Irene,

1) Yea, yea;
2) Nay, nay:
3) But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay:
for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. (Matt.5:37)

God bless
Ed J (Heb.11:40 / Eph:4:13)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Eccl.9:12-16)

February 4, 2011 at 4:34 pm#235338

Participant

EDJ………..Pay it no attention that is what all Preexistences do when they run out of any logical explanation for their lack of understanding, I have noticed Here for over five years that is the same response from those who are ignorant to what the truth is they love to poke fun and ridicule those who disagree with then , because they run out of any thing to say to truly explain their false teachings and it also shows their true lack of intelligence also. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene

February 4, 2011 at 4:37 pm#235339

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 04 2011,03:22)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2011,02:42)

peace and love…………………………………gene

The whole world is deluded, with one exception, gene, right?

I know, you not only have the tree of knowledge in your back yard, your swinging from it.

Georg

Georg…………Have you not read “THE WHOLE WORLD LIES IN DECEPTION” Now you seem to agree with the whole world on Jesus' Preexistence right? so i would worry about that a little more if i were you. IMO

peace and love to you and Irene………………………………gene

February 4, 2011 at 6:09 pm#235343

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 03 2011,07:38)

.
Please do yourself a favor and go to the preexisting debate tread that Mike started. There are some good Scriptures…..the one Scripture in Phil.2;5 would make no sense if Jesus did not existed before the world was. He emptied Himself.

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Peace Irene

Hi Irene:

Here is the scripture in Philippians to which you refer. Let us look at what is being said:

Quote

Phil 2:3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The Apostle Paul was teaching the church of Corinth about humility and using the life of Jesus as an example.

He said: 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus When was he Christ Jesus, Irene? In some former state, or when he was on earth?

He was in the form of God as God's Son and His Christ, but he did not let this go to his head, so to speak, but he humbled himself and became an ordinary man and humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross.

You know in his ministry here on earth he had the power to forgive sins, for example, and so, this is what is being said about him being in the form of God.

No, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. He was fore-ordained, and did exist in the heart of God because God knew that precisely the right time he would give birth to His Son in whom His plan for humanity would be fulfilled.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 4, 2011 at 8:58 pm#235357

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 05 2011,04:09)

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 03 2011,07:38)

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Peace Irene

Hi Irene:

Here is the scripture in Philippians to which you refer. Let us look at what is being said:

Quote

Phil 2:3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The Apostle Paul was teaching the church of Corinth about humility and using the life of Jesus as an example.

He said: 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus When was he Christ Jesus, Irene? In some former state, or when he was on earth?

You know in his ministry here on earth he had the power to forgive sins, for example, and so, this is what is being said about him being in the form of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty! If Jesus already was a man, why does Scripture say that He was made in the likeness of men?

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN.

Peace Irene

February 5, 2011 at 3:26 am#235389

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 05 2011,06:58)

Marty! If Jesus already was a man, why does Scripture say that He was made in the likeness of men?

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN.

Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

You took the words right out of my mouth. Also, when was he acting all “full of himself because he was God's Son” to the point that he had to “empty himself” of that?

If he never “lorded it over others” that he was the Son of God, then what exactly did he “empty himself” of?

peace and love,
mike

February 5, 2011 at 3:12 pm#235429

Participant

Mike……….Jesus never emptied himself of being GOD'S Son, in order for that to happen he would have to empty himself of the Spirit of GOD. That never happened from the time he recieved it at the Jordan until his death on the cross. He was in the nature of GOD by virtue of that Spirit given him. This same nature can be in us also, and we need to be just like Jesus was and not think that because we (exist) in the nature of GOD (via the holy spirit (IN) Us) that we are better them anyone else is. That was all of Paul's point was , but you preexistence use it to (SEPARATE )Jesus and (those who have the Spirit of God in them) from Jesus' identity. Marty has presented it right, rather you understand it or not doesn't change the truth. IMO

Mike here is something you need to also think about, where it say He thought it not robber to be made equal with GOD, years ago i did a search of the original Greek on that and other Scholars opinion on it and found out that it should read this way. “FOR HE (JESUS) thought not to rob GOD by trying to make himself equal with Him”. This I also believe is the right rendering of those words.

Remember when Jesus said all that ever came before him were lairs and thieves. Thy were lairs by say when miracles were preformed by God that they did them and in that they also were thieves because they were stealing Glory that belongs to GOD alone and applying it to themselves , as Moses did at the waters Meribia . Many people think Jesus was the creator and the one doing those Miracles , but Jesus always gave the Glory to God the Father the true source of those Miracles . Think about it Mike if you were to walk into a Hospital and God were to Heal everyone you ask him to, Before you could leave that hospital they would be National News cameras all around you, and By simply allowing simply not say that you did not do it and allow them to think you were the (SOURCE) of those Miracles would bring GLORY to YOU even though you were not the one who did it.

But what did Jesus say, “THE SON OF MAN CAN DO (NOTHING) OF HIMSELF”, and again saying to GOD the FATHER, “I HAVE GLORIFIED (YOU) UPON THE EARTH”. but you preexistence rob GOD and steal his Glory and give it to Jesus as if Jesus were your GOD. But this was not and is not the attitude of Jesus, he knows full well who get (ALL THE GLORY), he is not a thief nor a man who wants to be EQUAL WITH GOD, now or ever will. IMO

peace and love………………………………….gene

February 5, 2011 at 9:45 pm#235458