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Georg……….. The GLORY Jesus had with the FATHER before the World was, was already prepared for him before he ever was born into existence what is so hard for you to understand about that. He was (FOREORDAINED) (but) WAS (MANIFESTED) IN OUR TIME SAID PETER. Get it?. Tell me this Georg, what does this mean to you. “FOR WHAT IS MAN THAT SO KIND TO HIM YOU SHOULD BE , FOR YOU HAVE MADE HIS LOWER THEN THE ANGLES , FOR THE TASTING OF DEATH, BUT HAST “CROWNED HIM” WITH (GLORY) AND (HONOR). Now do we see this YET? No we do not , but is it in the mind and will of GOD yes it is Georg. So will it ever come about in the future Georg Yes it will. This is the same with Jesus also. His existence and his “GLORY” was all predestined before it ever happened. Just like Cyrus the King of Persia was predestined 200 year before he ever was born. I can't see what your problem is with understanding GOD Predestines things, do you think every thing just happens by chance?. IMO
peace and love……………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2011,00:34) Adam………… If anyone see Jesus as not a normal human being coming into existence by his berth from humanity as a pure human being, Just like Moses , John the Baptist , Jeremiah the prophet they do not see GOD'S work (IN) perfecting Humanity, they have bought into those false teachings, out of one side of their mouth they cry we are not like the Trinitarians and Gnostic's but they preach the same form of preexistence religion. You are definitely right about that Adam. peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..gene
Thank you very much brother Gene.Love and peace to you
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2011,00:54) Quote (Baker @ Jan. 25 2011,13:04) Gene! And I have another question for you! Who is this talking about in this Scripture Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Irene
Irene……….What does any of that have to do with (PREEXISTENCE) of Jesus?. This thread has to do with “Preexistence” his existence (BEFORE) his berth on earth, not future events or present ones.But i wil give you some advice, DO NOT TAKE EVERYTHING IN REVELATIONS AS “LITERAL”. The complete book was “SIGNIFIED” , now go look up what that word means, and it might help you understand better the book.
peace and love…………………………gene
Gene! In Rev' 19:13-16 it explains in details who is The Word of God. John wrote both Jon1:1-14 and Rev. 19:13-16. Since you seem to ignore John 1:1-14 saying it is only a thought in Gods mind, it according to Rev. 19 is a real person the Son of God who became Jesus in the flesh. He was there when through Him God created all. By Him and for Him…… Both Rev. and John is not just a thought, but a being that existed before He became flesh….
it goes along withRev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Jesus is both the firstborn of creation and firstborn of the death, so He may have preeminence, meaning He was first in all. Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death….
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Both Col. and John tell us that by Jesus all was created, by the power of Almighty God…..
Also in Genesis it says “let us' make men in our image…..who is us?
Jesus…..If you want to ignore these Scriptures and interpret them according to your doctrine, be my guest….I will go according to how it is written….
for the last time, I will not repeat this again….Peace Irene
Irene……….No point discussing any thing with you all this has bee discussed before and evidently you were not paying attention to what was said or Posted and by just reposting the same thing goes not where, You just continue to believe the way your do OK, and i and others will continue to believe the way we do , if you believe Jesus preexisted his Berth on earth as a real live being then just do so. I really do not care if you do or don't and i really see no purpose of just continuing to discussing this over and over for no avail. Just believe what you have always been taught by Preexistence religion that is your right. IMO
peace …………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2011,01:55) Georg……….. The GLORY Jesus had with the FATHER before the World was, was already prepared for him before he ever was born into existence what is so hard for you to understand about that. He was (FOREORDAINED) (but) WAS (MANIFESTED) IN OUR TIME SAID PETER. Get it?. Tell me this Georg, what does this mean to you. “FOR WHAT IS MAN THAT SO KIND TO HIM YOU SHOULD BE , FOR YOU HAVE MADE HIS LOWER THEN THE ANGLES , FOR THE TASTING OF DEATH, BUT HAST “CROWNED HIM” WITH (GLORY) AND (HONOR). Now do we see this YET? No we do not , but is it in the mind and will of GOD yes it is Georg. So will it ever come about in the future Georg Yes it will. This is the same with Jesus also. His existence and his “GLORY” was all predestined before it ever happened. Just like Cyrus the King of Persia was predestined 200 year before he ever was born. I can't see what your problem is with understanding GOD Predestines things, do you think every thing just happens by chance?. IMO peace and love……………………………………….gene
Yes sir, I think you should run for office.Georg
there are plenty of verses to show the son of God existing before coming to earth as a man.
and plenty of other writings, done soon after, the earliest church writings.
example this was writen in aprox 120AD by a saint. mathetes.
“God himself who is almighty, the creator of all things and invisible,
has sent from heaven, and placed among men, him who is the truth, the holy and incomprehensible word, the very creator and fashioner of all things
— by whom he made the heavens — by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds — whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe — from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed — whom the moon obeys, being commanded to shine in the night, and whom the stars also obey, following the moon in her course; by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject.God bless.
shinar.Quote (thankful @ Jan. 26 2011,20:57) there are plenty of verses to show the son of God existing before coming to earth as a man. and plenty of other writings, done soon after, the earliest church writings.
example this was writen in aprox 120AD by a saint. mathetes.
“God himself who is almighty, the creator of all things and invisible,
has sent from heaven, and placed among men, him who is the truth, the holy and incomprehensible word, the very creator and fashioner of all things
— by whom he made the heavens — by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds — whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe — from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed — whom the moon obeys, being commanded to shine in the night, and whom the stars also obey, following the moon in her course; by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject.God bless.
shinar.
shinarGod luck
, because you have to deal with a lot of 
, Georg
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2011,08:44) Irene……….O really then just produce one where Jesus said He Preexisted His Berth on earth as any kind of “BEING”. And don't try to force the text as you always do to say what you (THINK) it means. No Just one scripture where Jesus ever said he was ALIVE AS SOME KIND OF “BEING” before his berth on earth, and let not use the word “Before” in the context of importance as Jesus used it to show the Jews He was in the Plan and will of GOD before Abraham was. Out of all your so-called 40 scriptures you think you have, NOT (ONE) SAYS JESUS WAS ALIVE BEFORE HIS BERTH ON EARTH AS ANY KIND OF LIVING BEING. If you have it produce it, surely something so profound as that would have been a major subject of Jesus as well as and all the disciples like it is in (So-Called) false Christendom right? If you look up the word “BY” you will find it means “Because of or FOR JESUS> not BY HIM> Try looking those words up for a change and see how they are mistranslated into 30 or 40 or 70 different ways. And while you are at it look up the word “THROUGH” too.
Lets face the truth Irene you and many here have bought into the great LIE and are exactly what is spoken of in 2Ths2. Forcing text to meet you dogmas is nothing more the what the Trinitarians do they also believe in the PREEXISTENCE of Jesus as you do, both of these dogmas are from the Gnostic's who were the first to invent this idea of Jesus' preexistence in the first place and John said they were Antichrists and so are all who teach a preexistence Jesus also. You do not see Jesus as a fellow human being at all and you do not relate with him in human terms neither and this Separatist ideologies of Jesus from our likeness is what an Antichrist is, it is the SPIRIT (intellect) of the Antichrist this intellect makes Jesus different the the rest of man kind, it is a complete false teaching. IMO
gene
Greetings Gene….This is a is a fiery topic that promotes much discourse but very little factual information…I approach this topic logically and with my limited understanding of God and his ways,for I realize his ways are higher than mine…I fail to find any mention of Jesus in the OT with the acception to the reference to his existance is ISA:53 and even there he is not named…I rest my understanding on Johns description of Jesus when asked he said….He refered to Jesus as the word and declared that he was with God,also that he was God and finally became flesh and lived among us…This suggests prexistance,however,not in a physical or carnal state.The word is the means by which the Eternal created…He simply said “Let there be light”and the Day was seperated from the night and it was good…The creation was brought about by the Word of the Eternal and the power of his spirit…theodoreJ………Exactly what all Trinitarians believe as they are the one who most put forth the false teaching of Preexistence of all religions, they recieved it from the Gnostic's who also taught that same thing Jesus preexisted his berth, as some sort of “BERING” OR GOD OR SUPER ANGEL OR DEMIGOD. All false Christianity believes in Jesus' pre-earth existence but none produce any (SPECIFIC) text that say Jesus ever existed as any kind of Being before his berth , nor did Jesus say it either, and the Apostles never even mention or even suggest such a thing. Bottom line is all Christendom has bought into this false teaching introduced by the GNOSTIC'S.
This is the force that makes Jesus different from us and separates him from us humans and splits our identity with him, this Spirit (intellect) is the Spirit of Antichrist spoken of by John and it creates the MAN of SIN this false “IMAGE” of Jesus Himself which he will destory at his return as 2Ths 2 says. The teaching of Jesus as a preexistent begin is what created this false Image of Him , he is the only one who is sitting in the temple of God and being “displayed” as GOD as Paul said. This teaching IS THE LIE mentioned by PAUL , there is not such thing as (THE) “Man of Sin” , it is a (FALSE “IMAGE” OR LIE) ABOUT JESUS HIMSELF. Stop and ask your self is there any other Being on earth that says he or she is GOD, no not even the pope says that, so who else is said to be a Man and Yet a GOD also , is it not Jesus himself, is he not taught as a GOD and CREATOR of EVERYTHING, This false teachings about Jesus creates a False IMAGE of HIM and that “False Image” Is who the MAN of SIN is. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Quote (Baker @ Jan. 25 2011,11:14) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 25 2011,03:54) Hi Irene: How about the following scripture:
Quote Ephesians 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: This again indicates that God created all things. Jesus is not the creator.
Love in Christ,
Marty
did you not notice what it says?“””God, who created all things “”by”” Jesus Christ:”””
other scripture say, “”through”” him were all things created.
God “gave” his son the power to create.
How does a General in the army have his commands carried out? “”through”” his officers.
How does a President of a company have his orders carried out? “”through”” his subordinates.
The highest in command gives the order, the lower carries them out.
I don't find that so hard to understand.Georg
Yes, Georg:I noticed what the scripture states: “God created all things by Jesus Christ” which means:
Quote 1 Peter 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Quote 1 Colossians 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Notice the last part of verse 16 says all things were created for him, and that God indicates that God created all things and not Jesus, otherwise it would say “for himself”.
Jesus existed in the heart of the Father prior to the creation of the heavens and the earth and all of its host.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thankful @ Jan. 26 2011,20:57) there are plenty of verses to show the son of God existing before coming to earth as a man. and plenty of other writings, done soon after, the earliest church writings.
example this was writen in aprox 120AD by a saint. mathetes.
“God himself who is almighty, the creator of all things and invisible,
has sent from heaven, and placed among men, him who is the truth, the holy and incomprehensible word, the very creator and fashioner of all things
— by whom he made the heavens — by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds — whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe — from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed — whom the moon obeys, being commanded to shine in the night, and whom the stars also obey, following the moon in her course; by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject.God bless.
shinar.
Welcome to Heaven Net…..You are so right, there are over 40 Scriptures that shows us Jesus was before the world existed. I did not know that the early Church Fathers believed so, and I am happy that you brought that up….beware that there are some on here that will try to call you names, which in my opinion shoukld never be done. Please also pay attention to our signature, because
my Husband and I use the same users name…..Good luck to you…
Peace and Love IreneQuote (theodorej @ Jan. 27 2011,00:44) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2011,08:44) Irene……….O really then just produce one where Jesus said He Preexisted His Berth on earth as any kind of “BEING”. And don't try to force the text as you always do to say what you (THINK) it means. No Just one scripture where Jesus ever said he was ALIVE AS SOME KIND OF “BEING” before his berth on earth, and let not use the word “Before” in the context of importance as Jesus used it to show the Jews He was in the Plan and will of GOD before Abraham was. Out of all your so-called 40 scriptures you think you have, NOT (ONE) SAYS JESUS WAS ALIVE BEFORE HIS BERTH ON EARTH AS ANY KIND OF LIVING BEING. If you have it produce it, surely something so profound as that would have been a major subject of Jesus as well as and all the disciples like it is in (So-Called) false Christendom right? If you look up the word “BY” you will find it means “Because of or FOR JESUS> not BY HIM> Try looking those words up for a change and see how they are mistranslated into 30 or 40 or 70 different ways. And while you are at it look up the word “THROUGH” too.
Lets face the truth Irene you and many here have bought into the great LIE and are exactly what is spoken of in 2Ths2. Forcing text to meet you dogmas is nothing more the what the Trinitarians do they also believe in the PREEXISTENCE of Jesus as you do, both of these dogmas are from the Gnostic's who were the first to invent this idea of Jesus' preexistence in the first place and John said they were Antichrists and so are all who teach a preexistence Jesus also. You do not see Jesus as a fellow human being at all and you do not relate with him in human terms neither and this Separatist ideologies of Jesus from our likeness is what an Antichrist is, it is the SPIRIT (intellect) of the Antichrist this intellect makes Jesus different the the rest of man kind, it is a complete false teaching. IMO
gene
Greetings Gene….This is a is a fiery topic that promotes much discourse but very little factual information…I approach this topic logically and with my limited understanding of God and his ways,for I realize his ways are higher than mine…I fail to find any mention of Jesus in the OT with the acception to the reference to his existance is ISA:53 and even there he is not named…I rest my understanding on Johns description of Jesus when asked he said….He refered to Jesus as the word and declared that he was with God,also that he was God and finally became flesh and lived among us…This suggests prexistance,however,not in a physical or carnal state.The word is the means by which the Eternal created…He simply said “Let there be light”and the Day was seperated from the night and it was good…The creation was brought about by the Word of the Eternal and the power of his spirit…
Theo ! When you take John 1:1-14 together with Col.1:15-16 you can see that first of all Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, and secondly that through Jesus God created all.Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Jesus also was the firstborn of the deadCol 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Preeminence means that Jesus was first in all, firstborn of the dead and firstborn of all man and Angels., and everything that existed……..
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; You mentioned John 1, if you say that He only existed in the mind of God did He then go back to that way? Because in
First take this Scriptures in Rev. to compare to John 1:1 Jesus will come back as this and never was just in the mind of Jehovah God…
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Jhn 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
In this verses you not only see that God send His Son( how can God send only His thought or mind) into the world and Jesus also said He wants to go back to His Father who send Him, and give Jesus His glory back which He had before the world was.
I think we know that Jesus is a Spirit being now, and that is what Jesus was before the world was, because Jesus said so…..Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
I ask you where did God send Jesus from? To say the least,
Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by His side, one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before
him;These verses in Proverbs are confusing, most think it is Wisdom. But think about it, could Wisdom be beside God? Or could Wisdom be His delight? I don't think so….Wisdom would be inside God and not by His side…
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 25 2011,14:25) What Matt 22 says about Jews is the version of the Greek (Hellenistic) Christian writer. Gospels always distorted the version of Jews.
Hi Adam,I thought Matthew (Levi) was a Jew. And as I understand it, there is much evidence to support that his gospel was originally even written in Hebrew.
But this event is also recorded in Luke and Mark. I fail to see how YOU know more about it now than the Pharisees did back then. For they were stumped and silenced by Jesus' teaching…….but not you.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2011,13:13) Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 25 2011,14:25) What Matt 22 says about Jews is the version of the Greek (Hellenistic) Christian writer. Gospels always distorted the version of Jews.
Hi Adam,I thought Matthew (Levi) was a Jew. And as I understand it, there is much evidence to support that his gospel was originally even written in Hebrew.
But this event is also recorded in Luke and Mark. I fail to see how YOU know more about it now than the Pharisees did back then. For they were stumped and silenced by Jesus' teaching…….but not you.
peace and love,
mike
Hi brother Mike,
You ignore the logics of Biblical scholars who proved that all Gospels were written by unknown authors. In fact the so called Papias who was the source of your claim that disciple Matthew being the writer of First Gospel referred by Eusebius is here;“About the origins of the Gospels, Papias (as quoted by Eusebius) wrote this:
Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements. Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could.”So where is the proof that this Gospel which is a story telling but not sayings(oracles) of Jesus was written in Hebrew by the so called Jew who instead copied much from Second Gospel?
Now scholars have proved that this Papias was unreliable in his accounts by considering his other accounts.
You seem to me like any other fundamentalist who closes his eyes to the proofs given by the historians and scholars who proved that Bible is in fact errant and contradictory and is not inspired by God.
I am sorry to say that
AdamQuote (Baker @ Jan. 27 2011,10:44) Quote (thankful @ Jan. 26 2011,20:57) there are plenty of verses to show the son of God existing before coming to earth as a man. and plenty of other writings, done soon after, the earliest church writings.
example this was writen in aprox 120AD by a saint. mathetes.
“God himself who is almighty, the creator of all things and invisible,
has sent from heaven, and placed among men, him who is the truth, the holy and incomprehensible word, the very creator and fashioner of all things
— by whom he made the heavens — by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds — whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe — from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed — whom the moon obeys, being commanded to shine in the night, and whom the stars also obey, following the moon in her course; by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject.God bless.
shinar.
Welcome to Heaven Net…..You are so right, there are over 40 Scriptures that shows us Jesus was before the world existed. I did not know that the early Church Fathers believed so, and I am happy that you brought that up….beware that there are some on here that will try to call you names, which in my opinion shoukld never be done. Please also pay attention to our signature, because
my Husband and I use the same users name…..Good luck to you…
Peace and Love Irene
thank you. God bless you, nice to meet you and your husband. well, good luck, i think im out of this thread ! i can see it has gone on and on and on ! i may see you around.God bless.
To All………..The Big Question regarding Preexistence is this, What Profit would it be to GOD or Man, if God MORPHED a past existing BRING OF ANY KIND and passed him off as a human being, that would be deceptive on GOD'S Part and would prove nothing to man kind as regarding a Perfect Human Being if in fact that person was not (TRULY) a Human Being, but some kind of Past existing being which some say is a GOD or demigod, or super Angel, or Michael the Arch Angel or what ever you may believe he was. The Point is what good does that do in showing GOD'S perfecting of man kind. NONE.
But if God took an ordinary human being who had no prior knowledge or existence of any kind, and Perfected HIM and enabled him to not sin and raised him from the grave back to life in the EXACT way he can do us, and by that giving us a (REALLY TRUE) example of his power in the perfecting of man kind. Now if we see this man (Jesus) as one of US Humans and do not give him some (Mystical) past existence but realize he was truly Just and (ordinary) human being who GOD perfected from among men and raised him to eternal life, We are not only glorifying GOD for his work in man kind but also giving honor to Jesus himself for his devotion to both our God and His GOD. If we truly see Jesus as one of us and do not push him away from our exact identity then we can begin to see that as he was in this earth so should we strive to be and by the help of the same God who helped Him achieve his destiny and purpose in life, that same God in the (Same) way can help us also achieve his purpose for us.
This separation of Jesus from us started with the Gnostic's and was ferociously fought against by John and Paul also this was the Mystery of iniquity spoken of in scriptures it is an iniquity because it seems good but in fact is against Jesus “ANTICHRIST”and the very work of GOD in man kind, It is this is the “Mystery Iniquity” that created Jesus into a Man GOD, or Morphed Angel of some kind or a demigod, this Evil work moves Jesus away from our Identity and Exactness. It destroys the concept of GOD'S Work (IN) Man Kind. Even though there are many many scriptures that show Jesus was a MAN fro HUMAN Origins from Genesis to Moses and many prophets and finally Jesus himself, yet these deluded false teachers continue to preach a Separate Jesus who was nothing like we are but of some preexisting past as some kind of being which they can't even identify in any scripture as having any activity or type of being he was. These false teachers completely destory the very work of GOD in MAN Kind and the Work of Jesus as a pure Human being. The are the corrupter's of the very words of GOD and Jesus. They have cut themselves off from both GOD the FATHER and Jesus the Christ, they are Idolaters creating “THE MAN OF SIN” A false GOD or Demigod of some kind. My advice to all is to avoid them like the plague they only serve to distort and contaminate the truth of GOD> IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2011,01:42) To All………..The Big Question regarding Preexistence is this, What Profit would it be to GOD or Man, if God MORPHED a past existing BRING OF ANY KIND and passed him off as a human being, that would be deceptive on GOD'S Part and would prove nothing to man kind as regarding a Perfect Human Being if in fact that person was not (TRULY) a Human Being, but some kind of Past existing being which some say is a GOD or demigod, or super Angel, or Michael the Arch Angel or what ever you may believe he was. The Point is what good does that do in showing GOD'S perfecting of man kind. NONE. But if God took an ordinary human being who had no prior knowledge or existence of any kind, and Perfected HIM and enabled him to not sin and raised him from the grave back to life in the EXACT way he can do us, and by that giving us a (REALLY TRUE) example of his power in the perfecting of man kind. Now if we see this man (Jesus) as one of US Humans and do not give him some (Mystical) past existence but realize he was truly Just and (ordinary) human being who GOD perfected from among men and raised him to eternal life, We are not only glorifying GOD for his work in man kind but also giving honor to Jesus himself for his devotion to both our God and His GOD. If we truly see Jesus as one of us and do not push him away from our exact identity then we can begin to see that as he was in this earth so should we strive to be and by the help of the same God who helped Him achieve his destiny and purpose in life, that same God in the (Same) way can help us also achieve his purpose for us.
This separation of Jesus from us started with the Gnostic's and was ferociously fought against by John and Paul also this was the Mystery of iniquity spoken of in scriptures it is an iniquity because it seems good but in fact is against Jesus “ANTICHRIST”and the very work of GOD in man kind, It is this is the “Mystery Iniquity” that created Jesus into a Man GOD, or Morphed Angel of some kind or a demigod, this Evil work moves Jesus away from our Identity and Exactness. It destroys the concept of GOD'S Work (IN) Man Kind. Even though there are many many scriptures that show Jesus was a MAN fro HUMAN Origins from Genesis to Moses and many prophets and finally Jesus himself, yet these deluded false teachers continue to preach a Separate Jesus who was nothing like we are but of some preexisting past as some kind of being which they can't even identify in any scripture as having any activity or type of being he was. These false teachers completely destory the very work of GOD in MAN Kind and the Work of Jesus as a pure Human being. The are the corrupter's of the very words of GOD and Jesus. They have cut themselves off from both GOD the FATHER and Jesus the Christ, they are Idolaters creating “THE MAN OF SIN” A false GOD or Demigod of some kind. My advice to all is to avoid them like the plague they only serve to distort and contaminate the truth of GOD> IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………..gene
It is an excellent post brother Gene. I like the way you negate the claims of Gnostic and Docetic views of preexistence in Christianity. I wonder how Christianity made Jesus more than human by stating that he existed prior to his birth. Hebrews' writer claimed that he experienced all our weaknesses and feelings unless he was a human like us. If he is not so he can be real human but a god in disguise of a man.Thanks and love to you
AdamQuote (942767 @ Jan. 27 2011,05:34) Quote (Baker @ Jan. 25 2011,11:14) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 25 2011,03:54) Hi Irene: How about the following scripture:
Quote Ephesians 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: This again indicates that God created all things. Jesus is not the creator.
Love in Christ,
Marty did you not notice what it says?“””God, who created all things “”by”” Jesus Christ:”””
other scripture say, “”through”” him were all things created.
God “gave” his son the power to create.
How does a General in the army have his commands carried out? “”through”” his officers.
How does a President of a company have his orders carried out? “”through”” his subordinates.
The highest in command gives the order, the lower carries them out.
I don't find that so hard to understand.Georg
Yes, Georg:I noticed what the scripture states: “God created all things by Jesus Christ” which means:
Quote 1 Peter 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Quote 1 Colossians 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Notice the last part of verse 16 says all things were created for him, and that God indicates that God created all things and not Jesus, otherwise it would say “for himself”.
Jesus existed in the heart of the Father prior to the creation of the heavens and the earth and all of its host.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty I noticed that you did not address that Jesus also is the firstborn of all creation.Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION, AND NOT IN THE FATHERS MIND ONLY….
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
JESUS CREATED ALL BY THE POWER OF JEHOVAH GOD, AND THEREFORE HAD TO BE THERE.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
HERE IT SAYS THAT HE WAS BEFORE ALL THINGS…….
That is what we are debating here, and that is what so many just want to ignore. I have no idea why, I have been called over and over again, to have the spirit of Anti-Christ, which is ridiculous. That takes nothing away from that we beluieve that Jesus did come in the flesh…..And we, most of us, don't believe in a trinity either…. We have a new member, and She (I think) so matter of fact said that there are enough Scriptures to show us that Jesus did exist before His birth on earth….Amazing….SHE ALSO SAID THAT SHE IS OUT OF THIS TREAD, MAYBE I WILL FOLLOW HER, I AM GETTING TIRED OF ALL THE NONSENSE….
Peace and love IreneTo All………Key word begotten, drives it meaning from coming into existence , not being morphed into a different entity as the False teachings of the preexistences teach. Jeses neve rsaid he previsely existed as any kind of being what so ever, My advice is to not buy into the false teachings of the trinitarians and the Preexistences they are all decedents of the false teachings of the Gnostic's and are indeed Antichrist teachings. As John stated about the Gnostic teachings they deliberately (SEPARATE JESUS FROM OUR LIKENESS) He was a 100% human being in (every) way with out exception, He was uniquely Chosen by GOD to be the (FIRST) BORN or Begotten from among Gods creation of the human Creation into the Kingdom of GOD, He did not preexist his berth on earth except in the plan and will of GOD who said He would take from the WOMEN a (SEED) and bruise the head of the Serpent > Jesus was prophesied way before his berth as a “SEED” From a WOMEN not some Morphed preexisting Being of any kind. Don't buy into the LIE of Preexistences and Trinitarians. IMO
Peace and love………………………………………….gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 27 2011,14:37) You seem to me like any other fundamentalist who closes his eyes to the proofs given by the historians and scholars who proved that Bible is in fact errant and contradictory and is not inspired by God. I am sorry to say that
Adam
And I'm sorry to hear you say that, Adam.But if you don't believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God, then why are you going into details about how it doesn't teach the pre-existence of Jesus?
You and Tim Kraft should get together and talk. You both seem intent on making up your own religion and only taking from the scriptures the things that “make you happy”.
mike
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