Preexistence

[Baker]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 24 2011,14:26)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2011,02:42) Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 13 2011,19:11) Good arguments brother Gene. Jewish Messiah was never meant other than human being born to human parents. Literal preexistence of Messiah is some thing unknown to Judaism and Hebrew Bible. Love and peace to you Adam Hi Adam, You are right.  The Jews thought the Messiah would be just like them – a “human being born to human parents”.  But were they found out to be mistaken about this?  Of course they were.  First of all, Jesus was NOT born of human parentS, was he? Secondly, what exactly do you think Jesus was teaching the Pharisees in the following passage? Matthew 22 NIV 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”   “The son of David,” they replied. 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,   44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:   “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies   under your feet.”’   45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions. You can easily see that, like you pointed out, the Jews DID expect the Messiah to be a literal descendent of David – born in the usual way, and nothing more than a human born from TWO human parents.  But you can just as easily see that Jesus was teaching them something quite different from their understanding, right? Jesus was making a point to say that the Messiah was something MORE THAN a “normal” descendent of David.  He was making the point that had the Messiah been nothing more than a literal descendent of David, David would have never called him “my Lord” by Spirit. The Patriarch does not call any of his descendents “Lord” in Jewish culture.  The Patriarch is the “Lord” of his descendents, not the other way around.  And the Jews knew this, and were therefore rendered speechless by the teaching Jesus gave them. Adam and Gene, Jesus was clearly teaching people who thought the Messiah would be a regular human being who was brought forth from TWO regular human parents………that this was NOT the whole story. If you disagree with my understanding, then please tell me what it really was that Jesus was teaching with this passage.  Tell me why the Pharisees were silenced and could not even stand and defend their original statement that the Messiah would be the SON of David. peace and love, mike Hi brother brother Mike Thanks for your response on my post to brother Gene. Please avoid personal attacks. Coming to your arguments on Jesus being more than a human born to human parents: The writer of Matthew stated that Jesus was born to a virgin without human father which I negated in the thread “Virgin Birth”. OK leave it aside for time being now, the writer claimed Jesus was born like a human being through (virginal) conception and birth. He never says Jesus was some body and entered into womb of Mary and taken birth like what we believe in our Hinduism here in India for example Krishna. Coming to the passage you quoted from Matt 22 which was already debated here many times in the same thread. The writer quotes this in reference to his usual claim of Jesus fulfilling O.T prophecies quoting this from Psalm 110. If you read this psalm no where it claims that the Jewish king and supposed Messiah would be more than a human. In fact it was written by David himself. Here it goes like this ; Psalm 110 (Young's Literal Translation) ” 1A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: `Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.' 2The rod of thy strength doth Jehovah send from Zion, Rule in the midst of thine enemies. 3Thy people [are] free-will gifts in the day of Thy strength, in the honours of holiness, From the womb, from the morning, Thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4Jehovah hath sworn, and doth not repent, `Thou [art] a priest to the age, According to the order of Melchizedek.' 5The Lord on thy right hand smote kings In the day of His anger. 6He doth judge among the nations, He hath completed the carcases, Hath smitten the head over the mighty earth. 7From a brook in the way he drinketh, Therefore he doth lift up the head! “ Do you think any where in this Psalm David talks about non-human Jewish King? Jews believe that Messiah will be greater king than David. After all it is a Psalm written in a poetical way to adore Messiah the Jewish King before the Lord. There is nothing strange in this Psalm as you imagine here of Jesus preexistence as no-human. In fact the order of Melchizedek itself is human priestly office than non-human as Christianity imagines like the author of Hebrews. For this you may refer to appropriate thread in 'Scriptures & Biblical doctrines'. If you claim Jesus as non-human as per Matt 22 you are making Jesus' birth as human null and void for claiming him as David's son. It disqualifies him to be Jewish Messiah. Paul in fact ascertains that Jesus' physical origins from David without mentioning any so called virgin birth in Rom 1:2-3. He only claims Jesus to be a son of God with reference to his resurrection than physical birth. I hope you will appreciate these arguments. Peace to you Adam

You insist that Jesus did not exist, prior to his birth as a human.
You, and others, claim that HE was only a “thought” in God's mind, in God's plan; explain to me then what was Jesus asking his Father when he said this?

Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “””the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”””

Is Jesus asking the Father to become a “thought” in his Fathers mind again?

Georg

[GeneBalthrop]

Georg……………SO, Were also not in the Plan and will of GOD , Just as Jesus was right, “FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE MADE INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON” , it ALSO SAY JESUS WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, but was he literally slain from the foundation of the earth or does that mean he was in the foreordained plan of God to be slain in the future.  You can make fun of the for-knowledge of God all you want to as most Preexistences do, But PETER SAID JESUS WAS FORE(ORDAINED) (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) in our time. As i have said before you people have bought into the LIE about Jesus' preexistence  and MORPHED Berth, hook line and sinker.  IMO

peace and love……………………………………..gene

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2011,01:18)

Georg……………SO, Were also not in the Plan and will of GOD , Just as Jesus was right, “FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE MADE INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON” , it ALSO SAY JESUS WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, but was he literally slain from the foundation of the earth or does that mean he was in the foreordained plan of God to be slain in the future.  You can make fun of the for-knowledge of God all you want to as most Preexistences do, But PETER SAID JESUS WAS FORE(ORDAINED) (BUT) was (MANIFESTED)  in our time. As i have said before you people have bought into the LIE about Jesus' preexistence  and MORPHED Berth, hook line and sinker.  IMO peace and love……………………………………..gene

YOU did NOT answer MY question!

Georg

[942767]

Hi Irene:

How about the following scripture:

Quote

Ephesians 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This again indicates that God created all things. Jesus is not the creator.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Baker]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 25 2011,03:54)

Hi Irene: How about the following scripture: Quote Ephesians 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: This again indicates that God created all things.  Jesus is not the creator. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty! We should all know that God first of all is a Creator. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Then the Scripture you quioted says

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Jesus created all by the power of God. I don't think that I ever
said anything else.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis says “let us” since Jesus was in Heaven with His father it was them, both Father and Son who created all.

There are over 40 scriptures that show Jesus preexisted His birth on earth.
John 1:1-14, Col.1;1-16,
' 3;17
' 8:58
' 17:5
to name some……

Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….O really then just produce one where Jesus said He Preexisted His Berth on earth as any kind of “BEING”. And don't try to force the text as you always do to say what you (THINK) it means. No Just one scripture where Jesus ever said he was ALIVE AS SOME KIND OF “BEING” before his berth on earth, and let not use the word “Before” in the context of importance as Jesus used it to show the Jews He was in the Plan and will of GOD before Abraham was. Out of all your so-called 40 scriptures you think you have, NOT (ONE) SAYS JESUS WAS ALIVE BEFORE HIS BERTH ON EARTH AS ANY KIND OF LIVING BEING. If you have it produce it, surely something so profound as that would have been a major subject of Jesus as well as and all the disciples like it is in (So-Called) false Christendom right?

If you look up the word “BY” you will find it means “Because of or FOR JESUS> not BY HIM> Try looking those words up for a change and see how they are mistranslated into 30 or 40 or 70 different ways. And while you are at it look up the word “THROUGH” too.

Lets face the truth Irene you and many here have bought into the great LIE and are exactly what is spoken of in 2Ths2. Forcing text to meet you dogmas is nothing more the what the Trinitarians do they also believe in the PREEXISTENCE of Jesus as you do, both of these dogmas are from the Gnostic's who were the first to invent this idea of Jesus' preexistence in the first place and John said they were Antichrists and so are all who teach a preexistence Jesus also. You do not see Jesus as a fellow human being at all and you do not relate with him in human terms neither and this Separatist ideologies of Jesus from our likeness is what an Antichrist is, it is the SPIRIT (intellect) of the Antichrist this intellect makes Jesus different the the rest of man kind, it is a complete false teaching. IMO

gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 25 2011,03:01)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2011,01:18) Georg……………SO, Were also not in the Plan and will of GOD , Just as Jesus was right, “FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE MADE INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON” , it ALSO SAY JESUS WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, but was he literally slain from the foundation of the earth or does that mean he was in the foreordained plan of God to be slain in the future.  You can make fun of the for-knowledge of God all you want to as most Preexistences do, But PETER SAID JESUS WAS FORE(ORDAINED) (BUT) was (MANIFESTED)  in our time. As i have said before you people have bought into the LIE about Jesus' preexistence  and MORPHED Berth, hook line and sinker.  IMO peace and love……………………………………..gene YOU did NOT answer MY question! Georg

Georg……….What question is that?. I believe i have answered you questions unless i overlook one>

peace and love……………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2011,18:02)

In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was WITH God. The Logos became flesh and we know that Jesus CAME in the flesh. To further clarify, it states in scripture that God made all things through Jesus Christ and for him, just in case you didn't think that Jesus was the Logos that was with God in the beginning. Now a question for those who will ignore what I wrote above. Who was the first besides God? We know, but what is your answer?

T8………Lets not leave of THE LOGOS “WAS” GOD.

Also have you ever seen a word become Flesh, please tell us what that looks like T8. Does you words become Flesh ever, can anyones words become flesh ever, i think not brother. Nor can God's Word become Flesh either, words can come to be (IN) Flesh and they Were in the FLESH MAN JESUS who came into being through his berth on earth by Mary. No matter how much DNA GOD controlled to shape his out word features, He still never preexisted his Berth or at least i have yet to see (ANY) Scripture the (SPECIFICALLY) says Jesus was a live (BEING) prior to his berth on earth, if ONE EXISTS PLEASE PRODUCE it Brother. Remember i am asking for a (SPECIFIC SCRIPTURE) not a scripture that can be twisted to say what it does not (SPECIFICALLY) SAY.

peace and love to you and yours T8………………………….gene

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2011,08:44)

Irene……….O really then just produce one where Jesus said He Preexisted His Berth on earth as any kind of “BEING”. And don't try to force the text as you always do to say what you (THINK) it means. No Just one scripture where Jesus ever said he was ALIVE AS SOME KIND OF “BEING” before his berth on earth, and let not use the word “Before” in the context of importance as Jesus used it to show the Jews He was in the Plan and will of GOD before Abraham was. Out of all your so-called 40 scriptures you think you have, NOT (ONE) SAYS JESUS WAS ALIVE BEFORE HIS BERTH ON EARTH AS ANY KIND OF LIVING BEING. If you have it produce it, surely something so profound as that would have been a major subject of Jesus as well as and all the disciples like it is in (So-Called) false Christendom right? If you look up the word “BY” you will find it means “Because of or FOR JESUS> not BY HIM>  Try looking those words up for a change and see how they are mistranslated into 30 or 40 or 70 different ways. And while you are at it look up the word “THROUGH” too. Lets face the truth Irene you and many here have bought into the great LIE and are exactly what is spoken of in 2Ths2. Forcing text to meet you dogmas is nothing more the what the Trinitarians do they also believe in the PREEXISTENCE of Jesus as you do, both of these dogmas are from the Gnostic's who were the first to invent this idea of Jesus' preexistence in the first place and John said they were Antichrists and so are all who teach a preexistence Jesus also.  You do not see Jesus as a fellow human being at all and you do not relate with him in human terms neither and this Separatist ideologies of Jesus from our likeness is what an Antichrist is, it is the SPIRIT (intellect) of the Antichrist this intellect makes Jesus different the the rest of man kind, it is a complete false teaching. IMO gene

OK
What is the firstborn? Do you have a firstborn Son? WE do, and so does God. His name is Jesus….And He was before all. Read to post I made to Marty….
He created all by the power of his Father, that IS WHAT IT SAYS……IN ORDER TO CREATE THROUGH JESUS HE HAD TO BE THERE…….in Person and not in just thought…..O REALLY
Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 24 2011,14:26)

Jews believe that Messiah will be greater king than David.

Hi Adam,

They do/did?  That's funny, because then what Jesus said to them about David calling his descendent “my Lord” would make no sense whatsoever.  If the Messiah IS supposed to be greater than David, then why didn't the Pharisees just say, “The Messiah is going to be greater than David, so of course David prophetically calls him 'my Lord'”?  But they didn't say that, did they?  In fact they were stumped and silenced by Jesus' question to them.

How do you explain this discrepancy between what Jesus said, how the Pharisees responded, and what you've claimed above?

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 25 2011,03:01)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2011,01:18) Georg……………SO, Were also not in the Plan and will of GOD , Just as Jesus was right, “FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE MADE INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON” , it ALSO SAY JESUS WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, but was he literally slain from the foundation of the earth or does that mean he was in the foreordained plan of God to be slain in the future.  You can make fun of the for-knowledge of God all you want to as most Preexistences do, But PETER SAID JESUS WAS FORE(ORDAINED) (BUT) was (MANIFESTED)  in our time. As i have said before you people have bought into the LIE about Jesus' preexistence  and MORPHED Berth, hook line and sinker.  IMO peace and love……………………………………..gene YOU did NOT answer MY question! Georg

Nor did he answer mine. Gene, WHAT was Jesus teaching the Pharisees in the blue passage I quoted for you? In YOUR opinion?

Why did Jesus say, “THEN HOW CAN HE BE HIS SON?”

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2011,08:44)

Irene……….O really then just produce one where Jesus said He Preexisted His Berth on earth as any kind of “BEING”.

Hi Gene,

Why don't YOU produce one where Jesus says, “I only ever existed as a human and my life didn't begin until I was born of Mary”?

JUST PRODUCE ONE, Gene.

mike

[Baker]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 25 2011,03:54)

Hi Irene: How about the following scripture: Quote Ephesians 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: This again indicates that God created all things.  Jesus is not the creator. Love in Christ, Marty

did you not notice what it says?

“””God, who created all things “”by”” Jesus Christ:”””

other scripture say, “”through”” him were all things created.

God “gave” his son the power to create.
How does a General in the army have his commands carried out? “”through”” his officers.
How does a President of a company have his orders carried out? “”through”” his subordinates.
The highest in command gives the order, the lower carries them out.
I don't find that so hard to understand.

Georg

[Baker]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 24 2011,20:56)

You insist that Jesus did not exist, prior to his birth as a human. You, and others, claim that HE was only a “thought” in God's mind, in God's plan; explain to me then what was Jesus asking his Father when he said this? Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.   Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “””the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”””   Is Jesus asking the Father to become a “thought” in his Fathers mind again? Georg

For Gene

This was my question.

Georg

[Baker]

Gene! And I have another question for you! Who is this talking about in this Scripture

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Irene

[gollamudi]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2011,10:26)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 24 2011,14:26) Jews believe that Messiah will be greater king than David. Hi Adam, They do/did?  That's funny, because then what Jesus said to them about David calling his descendent “my Lord” would make no sense whatsoever.  If the Messiah IS supposed to be greater than David, then why didn't the Pharisees just say, “The Messiah is going to be greater than David, so of course David prophetically calls him 'my Lord'”?  But they didn't say that, did they?  In fact they were stumped and silenced by Jesus' question to them. How do you explain this discrepancy between what Jesus said, how the Pharisees responded, and what you've claimed above? peace and love, mike

Hi brother Mike,
So you ignore all the prophecies about Jewish Messiah who will be greater King than any Jewish king in Israel?

What Matt 22 says about Jews is the version of the Greek (Hellenistic) Christian writer. Gospels always distorted the version of Jews.

I had argued with you how Jesus would be disqualified to be a Jewish Messiah if he is non-human and not a physical descendant of David.

Preexistence of Messiah is some thing new to Hebrew Bible and Judaism. Only Gnosticism or Docetism can accept such logics of preexistence of any human but not true monotheism.

Peace to you
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam………… If anyone see Jesus as not a normal human being coming into existence by his berth from humanity as a pure human being, Just like Moses , John the Baptist , Jeremiah the prophet they do not see GOD'S work (IN) perfecting Humanity, they have bought into those false teachings, out of one side of their mouth they cry we are not like the Trinitarians and Gnostic's but they preach the same form of preexistence religion. You are definitely right about that Adam.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 25 2011,11:19)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 24 2011,20:56) You insist that Jesus did not exist, prior to his birth as a human. You, and others, claim that HE was only a “thought” in God's mind, in God's plan; explain to me then what was Jesus asking his Father when he said this? Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.   Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “””the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”””   Is Jesus asking the Father to become a “thought” in his Fathers mind again? Georg For Gene This was my question. Georg

Georg………….Because Jesus fulfilled God purpose and will for him that GOD had for him long before he was ever alive, and attaining that Goal planed by GOD before the ever existed, does not mean that when it finely took place it was Just a Thought , But it was a purpose GOD had for Him way before he ever existed. The same can be said for Cyrus the Persian King , or Jeremiah the prophet, and many others. Trying to make it out that God does not know in advance and (CAUSING) HIS PURPOSES TO COME ABOUT BY, showing forethought about his plans for his creation is pure STUPIDITY at best, to even think he did not. IMO

peace and love……………………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 25 2011,13:04)

Gene!  And I have another question for you!   Who is this talking about in this Scripture Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.   Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.   Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.   Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.   Irene

Irene……….What does any of that have to do with (PREEXISTENCE) of Jesus?. This thread has to do with “Preexistence” his existence (BEFORE) his berth on earth, not future events or present ones.

But i wil give you some advice, DO NOT TAKE EVERYTHING IN REVELATIONS AS “LITERAL”. The complete book was “SIGNIFIED” , now go look up what that word means, and it might help you understand better the book.

peace and love…………………………gene

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2011,00:47)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 25 2011,11:19) Quote (Baker @ Jan. 24 2011,20:56) You insist that Jesus did not exist, prior to his birth as a human. You, and others, claim that HE was only a “thought” in God's mind, in God's plan; explain to me then what was Jesus asking his Father when he said this? Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.   Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “””the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”””   Is Jesus asking the Father to become a “thought” in his Fathers mind again? Georg For Gene This was my question. Georg Georg………….Because Jesus fulfilled God purpose and will for him that GOD had for him long before he was ever alive, and attaining that Goal planed by GOD before the ever existed, does not mean that when it finely took place it was Just a Thought , But it was a  purpose GOD had for Him way before he ever existed. The same can be said for Cyrus  the Persian King , or Jeremiah the prophet, and many others. Trying to make it out that God does not know in advance and (CAUSING) HIS PURPOSES TO COME ABOUT BY, showing forethought about his plans for his creation is pure STUPIDITY at best, to even think he did not. IMO peace and love……………………………………gene

Gene

They need guys like you in Washington.

Why do you avoid answering my question?
I'll put it up for you again.

You, and others, claim that HE (Jesus) was only a “thought” in God's mind, in God's plan; explain to me then what was Jesus asking his Father when he said this?

Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “””the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”””

Is Jesus asking the Father to become a “thought” in his Fathers mind again?

Read the second scripture, and my question following that scripture; that is my question.

Georg

[Author]

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