Preexistence

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 10 2010,19:22)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2010,08:43) Mike Haven't you figured out that I cannot post without someone bringing up the Trinity. Even if my post has nothing to do with the Trinity! Somehow people must think that accusing me of being a Trinitarian adds validity to their post. Its quite humurous actually! WJ I took the blame for starting the trinity discussion here.  But you can see it was really YOU! Quote (Keith @ 1) Now you want to tell us Paul is calling the Spirit of God the “Christ” in 1 Cor 10:9? This is one of the strongest passages in the Bible for the “Deity” of Jesus the Christ and also for his pre-existence, so close your eyes and stick your head in the sand if you want. The problem you have is this is one of those Trinitarian scriptures that cannot be refuted. That's the post I said “Slow your roll” to Keith.  So it was YOU, and you were just going to let me take the blame?   Bad Trinitarian! So you say the 7 spirits of God are “messengers” of God?  You mean just like Jesus was and is a messenger of his God? mike

Mike

HaHa. You do realize Gene is right when he says that the  preexistence of Christ is a concept married to being a Trinitarian don't you?

You should take the blame for coming after me for mentioning the Trinitarian scripture 1 Cor 10:4-9. Because you did not refute my exegesis of the scripture but only started a debate as to why I am wrong.

Who is “The Rock” that followed them in the wilderness Mike?

That is a preexistent question?

When you answer it then explain who “The Rock” of the children of Israel was/is?

Then you will see the truth that Jesus is “YHWH” come in the flesh. That is a Trinitarian statement. You see Mike it is not easy to seperate “Preexistence” from “Trinitarian”.

Also the “One Spirit” of God is the “Spirit of Christ”, “Spirit of God”, “Spirit of Jesus” Holy Spirit, “Spirit of his Son”, “Spirit of the Lord”, “Counselor”, Etc, Etc, Etc., are all interchangeable terms the writers of the NT call the One Spirit, which is the One God.

Have you considered that the “seven Spirits” are the eyes of the Lamb. Therefore Jesus is God. Another Trinitarian statement. I do take the blame Mike, but the fact is my statement was true, many times people will bring up the Trinity in response to me even when I am not speaking of the Trinity, just so they can add validity to their statement, so they think.

It is like attacking EDj for using numbers even if his statement does not include numbers.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2010,02:22)

I do take the blame Mike, but the fact is my statement was true, many times people will bring up the Trinity in response to me even when I am not speaking of the Trinity, just so they can add validity to their statement, so they think. It is like attacking EDj for using numbers even if his statement does not include numbers. WJ

Hi Keith,

Agreed.  Or like when someone has to bring up the JW's or the NWT when they weren't even a part of what I was saying!

Anyway, you and I will live to fight another day about the trinity on a different thread.

Right now, I'm still wondering how Gene can explain how the Word who became flesh and had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father that John wasn't fit to untie the sandals of wasn't Jesus…………..WITHOUT ADDING THE WORD “IN” INTO JOHN 1:14.

peace and love,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ…………You are (exactly) right, Preexsistences are no different then the Trinitarians , even though they “ACT” like they are. Both SEE Jesus as a preexistence being before his earthly berth, Both are on par with the Gnostic's of Paul and John's time all three are SEPARATIST AND SEPARATE JESUS IDENTITY WITH OURS. All three are ANTICHRIST by denying Jesus beginning his life ON THE EARTH through his berth by Mary. They all three change Jesus IMAGE from a man to a GOD or Demigod of some kind, they all three serve the same end and that is to move Jesus away from the rest of Humanity. In what you said to Mike you are indeed right WJ.

peace and love to you and yours ………………………………………gene

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2010,01:19)

Mike What I am saying is “Two becoming one flesh” is still a mystery. Though we may not understand how two are one flesh… WJ

Hi WJ,

Kerwin has explained this concept of “a two into one” flesh pretty well.
Children consider their mom and dad as ONE “Parental unit”.
And then in-Laws become ONE big happy family.
Also S.T.D.'s effect every contact point!
So it's not a mystery any more!
Do you understand now?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2010,11:22)

Bad Trinitarian! So you say the 7 spirits of God are “messengers” of God?  You mean just like Jesus was and is a messenger of his God? mike

Hi Mike,

                           “Crossing the bridge between Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian”
                               “The Trinity” is 3/7ths of: YHVH the “Seven-Fold LORD”!

(YES! / Yes! / yes!)   …You have finally figured it out “The Trinity“; Mike!…     (Amos:3:7 / 2Tm.2:13 / John 5:37)

Your brother in
Christ, Jesus!
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2010,02:22)

Mike Then you will see the truth that Jesus is “YHWH” come in the flesh. WJ

Hi WJ,

          There is NO “W” sound in the Hebrew language!

The “HolySpirit”(YHVH) became flesh inside Jesus first! (John 1:1, 14)
Now “HolySpirit”(YHVH) becomes flesh in “The Believers”! (Eph.4:4-6)

Eph.4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord,
one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who
is above all, and through all, and in you all.

             “YHVH” ↔ “God”…………………………………..(Rom. 1:20)
      “Christ”(77) = “And Father”(77)…………………..(Coloss.2:9)
       “Body”(46) = “of all”(46)……………………………(Matt.10:29)
“Witness”(109) = “in you all”(109)…………………….(Acts 17:29)

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 11 2010,15:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2010,01:19) Mike What I am saying is “Two becoming one flesh” is still a mystery. Though we may not understand how two are one flesh… WJ Hi WJ, Kerwin has explained this concept of “a two into one” flesh pretty well. Children consider their mom and dad as ONE “Parental unit”. And then in-Laws become ONE big happy family. Also S.T.D.'s effect every contact point! So it's not a mystery any more! Do you understand now? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

ED

I have yet to see where you have taught me anything.

No offence but I do not agree with your point or kerwins.

Paul said it is a Mystery and you or Kerwin do not know more than he.

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ………….The MYSTERY was (HOW) GOD was (IN) Jesus , or for that matter (HOW) is he in all things and omnipresent . Who even begins to truly Know (HOW) that WORKS no one does only GOD DOES . IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 12 2010,09:28)

WJ………….The MYSTERY was (HOW) GOD was (IN) Jesus , or for that matter (HOW) is he in all things and omnipresent . Who even begins to truly Know (HOW) that WORKS no one does only GOD DOES . IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

Excellent Post!
And thanks for backing me!
Your right John1:14 is still a mystery to WJ!

Your brother in
Christ, Jesus!
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2010,09:14)

ED I have yet to see where you have taught me anything. WJ

Hi WJ,

One can only be taught if he becomes like a child! (1Cor.13:7 / Luke 18:17)

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

And the Two Shall Be One……the mystery unveiled here.

http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/AndThe2ShallBecome1.html

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2010,04:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 09 2010,21:02) WJ………..It is not me calling Jesus or Paul a liar, Show us one scripture where Jesus ever said He was the Rock of anything ,… Gene Paul said Jesus was the Christ that followed them in the wilderness and Paul claimed that he received his revelation from Jesus. Paul also said… Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, “I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence“: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 9:32, 33 So who is this “Rock of offence” but Jesus? Peter  himself also calls Jesus the “Rock”…. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And “a stone of stumbling, and “a rock of offence“, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Peter 2:7, 8 Now compare Paul and Peters quote with this… Sanctify the LORD (YHWH) of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for “a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel“, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Isa 8:13, 14. It appears they are claiming Jesus is YHWH, eh? To him that has ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit says! Is Jesus your “Savoir” Gene…? According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ“. 1 Cor 3:10, 11 Is Jesus the “Foundation of your salvation” Gene…? Is he the “Rock of your salvation”…? WJ

WJ……….So you deny all the scripture i directly quoted from the bible and replaced it with Jesus being (A) stone or rock of offense right , then GOD the Father is not rally your ROCK is HE but JESUS IS right?

I will answer you this JESUS IS (NOT) THE ROCK OF MY SALVATION AT ALL IT IS GOD THE FATHER THE SAME “ROCK” OF JESUS' SALVATION. That is the difference between us Jesus is your GOD who you worship as GOD. I see Jesus as my brother and worship (HIS) GOD and MY GOD, HIS FATHER and MY FATHER. So in the end we will see who is right WJ won't we? IMO

peace and love…………………………gene

[JustAskin]

Just passing through….

To all,

That which was a mystery to Paul need not be a mystery to those of today.

There are many things that were 'mysteries' in Paul's days that are known today.

This is because the Holy Spirit reveals, as Scriptures insinuates: 'Not all truth of Scriptures is given to one man, but to each, in a different place, and at a different time, as the Spirit wills'

In the time of Paul, for instance, it was believed that 'Heaven', the abode of God, was somewhere 'up beyond the Sky'. That is why people, even now, look 'up' when refering to God and Heaven.
The 'Sky', galactic Space, the Celestial, is even called 'the Heavens' because it was thought there were 'Seven' of which the Seventh was the 'High Heaven' the abode of God.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” note the plural, 'heavens' and further, that the 'h' is not capitalised…

This leads onto other things…Dimensions.

I have outlined how 'Dimensions' show exactly how Spirits can co-exist and be omnipresent.

However, it appears that the reality of Spirits is rather hard to 'prove' to those who are grounded in flesh.

Let me try and outline it again.

Here is a simple mathematical exercise.

Square root….the square root of 16 is 4 (4 * 4 = 16).
The square root of 4 is 2 (2 * 2 = 4).

The square root of 2 is 1.4….something (1.4… * 1.4… = 2)

The square root of 1 is 1 (1 * 1 = 1)

If anyone is not familiar with this then try it on a calculator…since it can be presumed you are using a computer then there will be one somewhere…or use a Spreadsheet or check the Internet.

Now…what is the square root of -1?

Virtually every calculator will show an error!!!

Why? an error just means that the calculator cannot calculate the answer … It ''does not Compute''…

But…''there is an answer, it just has to think very hard about it!!''

The answer is what is known as 'an Imaginary number'

Ok, i guess many have stopped reading by now saying , 'what has this got to do with anything?'

Well, the numbers, decimals or otherwise, from zero to 1 to 2, 3, 4….10….100…etc, etc ad infinitum, are called 'Real numbers'.

Real numbers are in the 'world' as we see things, tactile, visible, solid, measurable with ease with instruments…

Imaginary numbers…are numbers that are used to describe measurements, values, points, positions,…in multi dimensional Space… Real numbers cannot describe things in 'Imaginary Space', multi dimensions.

In the same way, flesh and blood mind cannot describe things in the multi dimensional Spirit world.

Anybody still reading…?

One dimension…is a straight line.
A point, a body, so to speak, can only move a specific and minute distance left or right along that line in any minute time period.

Two Dimensions…Height and Width. An area….a body can move any where within the area, left, right, up, down or any valid combination of up, left, down and right. Small incremental movements in a small incremental period of time.

Three Dimensions…Width, Height, breadth…Volume… A body can move up, down, left right, forward, and backward, and any valid combination all six….a small incrental movement in a small incremental period of time.

Up to this point the body has been 'set' in a fixed position in each dimension. 'Time' has been mentioned but should be dismissed.

Now, the fourth dimension…Time…the body can move incrementally in the allotted incremental period of time. One movement within its dimensional bounds within a guven increment of time….
This is the normal world that flesh and blood, earthly man exists in….this is our normal world…

Hey, stay awake at the back there, we've reached the fun part!!!

The fifth dimension…this is the start of the 'Imaginary world', of which can only be measured, discerned, using the 'Imaginary Number'.

In the fifth dimension, the 'body'… exist in one fixed position in any one fixed increment of time but can be in ANY position in a different fixed increment of time.
So…it could be in 'New York' in one increment of time, and in 'Abu Dabi' in the next increment of time.
But note…the body is still only in ONE place in AnY One time increment…

Hey hey, did you follow that…so raise the bar….
The Sixth Dimension… The body can be in MORE than ONE position, more than one place, AT THE SAME TIME.
Read that again….different place AT the SAME Time…

And now the BIGGY….the Seventh Dimension….guess what can happen here…..
Yes…
The body can be in ALL PLACES AT ALL TIMES….

By the way…'body' doesn't mean 'a physical entity', I only use the word for reading and continuity purpose.

Substitute the word Spirit and suddenly everything changes…

Don't think of the physicl body….please, but the animating Force, the Intelligence that drives the body.

The physical body is simply a covering, the elastic covering of a balloon, the flesh on an entity (Bird, fish, Animal, Man), the metallic, plastic, cloth of a vehicle.
Without a driver, an intelligence, a human, a Computer, etc., that vehicle is just junk in terms of its use. It may be gloriously made, glittery, robust, shiny, streamlined, powerful in potential drive…but…without an intelligence inside it to drive it…what can it do…nothing…it is as 'dead'.
So also are all bodies…without a Spirit to drive it.

Up to the fourth dimension, then, the 'Spirit' is only able to be in ONE Place at a time…AND can only move 'Linearly', that is 'One incremental and contiguous position after another'.

Think like reality….we can only move a step in any direction to the VERY next position…like the 'Pawn' on a Chess board.

Now, in the Fifth dimension…the Spirit can, like the Knight on a Chessboard, move to and different position that is NOT the immediate contiguous position…

Increase the dimensions, the Spirit can be more than one place at the same time…think of a multilayer Chess, Super 3D Chess… Can your human mind conceive of the same Chess piece being in different positions on the 3D Chess board?
Why? Well, because you are used to thinking within your earthly 3 Dimensional world with time…

Shift out of the body and into the Spirit…and you can go anywhere, anytime, at anytime…

Demons, fallen Angels, exist in Spirit, in the lower dimensions. Hence they can only be in one place at a time, but any ONE place… And furthermore…….listen carefully, Spirits are not physical, they are 'Immaterial', they do not take up any Space in the physical world. They are like Light, or Wind. Where is the wind at any time…

It comes, it goes.

From where does it come?

To where does it go?

It forms a 'body', visible or invisible, and the earth feels its effects, its force.

Balaam's donkey 'saw' the Angel Spirit, it FELT the presence, perceived the presence, but Balaam did not because he was so intent on doing wrong. Only when the Angel Spirit visibilised itself …with menace…holding a Sword…ha ha…a Spirit Sword…more powerful than any physical earthmade sword, for sure!!! Only then did Balaam see the Angel Spirit, and the error of his deed.

So, by example, the Mad man who had a legion of Spirits, Demons in him, all occupied IN THE SAME PHYSICAL SPACE inside the man, when allowed by Jesus, moved IMMEDIATELY INTO THE PIGS…several in each pig, all at the same time.

Scriptures is written with every e
xample of anything we need to know about God and his Kingdom.

We just gotta know how to fathom it out.

How then, did the Spirits move from one place to another, immdeiately?

How did Jesus 'appear' inside a locked room, then, presumably,disappear just as easily…

Why did Jesus need to eat…? No sweat…the flesh he materialised was REAL Flesh, exactly as when he died…that was HIS explicit 'block of flesh' Jesus DNA made…therefore Jesus, who cannot lie [now] and WOULD NOT LIE, (Why should he…to him he was talking to humans who still thought there was a tooth fairy? Hey mom, dad, isn't it time to stop this kind of nonesense???)
Thomas had to have 'proof' and Jesus showed him…then, even he, believed.
Flesh, real flesh, needs sustaining with food, energy, just like the vehicle which needs petrol, or diesel…
Abraham, meeting the three Angelsin the form of men, fed them food, and they eat. This wasn't trickery, it was for real…

And how did the Angels 'disappear'?to where did they 'disappear'.
What happened to the bodies they disappeared out of…well, what is flesh…but 'dust'…earthly chemical elements: Water, Carbon, Nitogen, iron, phospherous, gold, silver, mercury, ….many more…yes, this is what the human body is composed of in a highly complexed way…
And where do all these elements exist…yes, right here in the world…An intelligent Spirit can gather the required elements, fashion them into the shape of a human body, the vehicle, and place itself in it as the driver, the animating force…and when it is done….it 'dematerialises' the body …like a cloud….of dust back into the earth…viz,..disappears right in front of a viewrs eyes….

The Spirit, goes to a higher dimension from where it came, or was designated… Demons cannot go higher than the fifth dimension…and are now banned from coming lower…

And Spirit, could normally go to any lower dimension and back to its originating dimension…thefallenAngels 'left there normal abode' and came to earth occupying fleshly bodies to mate with human females because only in the 'human dimensions' can 'procreation' take place among flesh, bone and blood bodies…
When caught by God, they were banned from returning to their higher positions, most likely the Sixth dimension. To a Spirit, used to going where it will at any time it will, being locked to the fifth dimension and banned from going lower…is like being in jail, locked, chained. They have no access to the 'outside dimensions', the learn nothing more of God plans and no no timescale for their ultimate demise….hence they thought Jesus had come to 'judge them'. If they knew the timescale they would have known that it was not yet the time.

Ok. Draw the curtains, let in some light, yawn, stretch, blink the eyes…

I want a precisee on my desk from all of you of what i just told you by this coming Wednesday evening, UK time.

[GeneBalthrop]

JA……………Your explanation has merit, to some degree anyway, but what do you do where Paul says that we be not found unclothed. as it appears a spirit it , in you explanation. Don't you think a body is important? if not then why did God create one in the first place?. What good is spirit (intellect) if it does not animate anything , if just simply goes about in (ARID) or dry places looking for rest right? Just questions that you should deal with in you explanation right. Even God who we know is Spirit (INDWELLS) his material creation right?

peace and love………………………….gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 11 2010,18:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2010,09:14) ED I have yet to see where you have taught me anything. WJ Hi WJ, One can only be taught if he becomes like a child! (1Cor.13:7 / Luke 18:17) Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

True!

But one must not be a “Child” in order to teach.  1 Tim 3:6

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 12 2010,14:08)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2010,04:43) Gene wrote: WJ………..It is not me calling Jesus or Paul a liar, Show us one scripture where Jesus ever said He was the Rock of anything ,… Gene Paul said Jesus was the Christ that followed them in the wilderness and Paul claimed that he received his revelation from Jesus. Paul also said… Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, “I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence“: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 9:32, 33 So who is this “Rock of offence” but Jesus? Peter  himself also calls Jesus the “Rock”…. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And “a stone of stumbling, and “a rock of offence“, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Peter 2:7, 8 Now compare Paul and Peters quote with this… Sanctify the LORD (YHWH) of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for “a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel“, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Isa 8:13, 14. It appears they are claiming Jesus is YHWH, eh? To him that has ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit says! Is Jesus your “Savoir” Gene…? According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ“. 1 Cor 3:10, 11 Is Jesus the “Foundation of your salvation” Gene…? Is he the “Rock of your salvation”…? WJ

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 12 2010,14:08)

WJ……….So you deny all the scripture i directly quoted from the bible and replaced it with Jesus being (A) stone or rock of offense right , then GOD the Father is not rally your ROCK is HE but JESUS IS right?

Gene

I accept all of them, but unlike you I do not deny any scritpture.

Paul said “Christ” is the Rock, and as it has been shown you by all of these scriptures that Jesus is “The Christ“…

[Proclaimer]

Interesting post JA.

I would like to add that a physical body cannot go through physical things (not because atoms colliding with atoms as moist think), but because of electro-magnetic force which repels.

When Jesus appeared in a room (resurrection) he had a body or outer form, but obviously wasn't subject to electro-magnetism, (unless he just opened the door).

I use to play a game called Doom many years ago, and if you went into God-mode, you could explore each level without being constrained by impassable line defs. It was easy to do and perhaps there are heavenly codes that give bodies different permissions and form.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 14 2010,04:34)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 11 2010,18:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2010,09:14) ED I have yet to see where you have taught me anything. WJ Hi WJ, One can only be taught if he becomes like a child! (1Cor.13:7 / Luke 18:17) Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org True! But one must not be a “Child” in order to teach.  1 Tim 3:6 WJ

A child to your teacher and an authority to your pupils.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 13 2010,20:04)

I want a precisee on my desk from all of you of what i just told you by this coming Wednesday evening, UK time.

Apologies, but in NZ, we are one day ahead.

[JustAskin]

t8, Not one day…only 12 hours…

[Author]

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