Preexistence

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,13:38)

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2010,11:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,03:00) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2010,10:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,02:30) You do not believe that YHVH has a son who is “One” with him and in every way is like him and who also shares the name of his Father. WJ Hi brother WJ, Greetings after a long time. Sorry to bother you. I just want to ask you on the above statement; I think Son is not same individual as Father in the Godhead if so are they not two Gods in Christianity at least as per your statement above? Hi GM Correct the Father and the Son are not the same person yet they are “One God”. God is Spirit. The very essence of who and what God is the Father and Jesus are. Just as a man and a woman are “One flesh” yet to persons. Just as there are many humans but only one humanity. WJ Right answer brother WJ. So you mean 'God' is also a collective or common noun like 'human' which can be plural? As per your statement God can be plural as man and woman who are separate individual human beings can be called as one flesh though not literally but in a figurative sense IMO. This is where I am having problem with our N.T which claims that  Father is God, son is God and Holy Spirit is God who are also separate individual beings but at the same time God is only one, Lord is one and the Spirit is one as per Eph 4. How this is possible? Is it not polytheism? Thanks and peace to you Adam GM One flesh is not figurative. The physical joining of two become one flesh. Paul calls it a Mystery. Though our minds cannot comprehend how man and woman can be “one flesh” yet be two persons, nevertheless it is so. There is only One Divine being who is God and that scripturally is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. WJ

WJ

hmmm. you really do not understand that ?? are you by any chances Mormon (bigamist)???

this would be a good reason for you not to understand this scripture,

Pierre

[kerwin]

WorshippingJesus,

When a man and woman marry two family lines become one and thus they become one flesh.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 08 2010,14:52)

WorshipingJesus, Is not 1 Corinthians 10:5-9 speaking of those that choose not to drink from the teachings of the Spirit and so rebel against God? Does their rebellion not show that they are unbelievers, As in Jude 1:4-5, as they reject the word of God?

Kerwin

No it clearly says the Rock they drank from was Christ. Christ is the Rock Kerwin and Christ was there. It was “The Rock” they rejected and tempted.

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and “THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST”….”Neither let us tempt Christ“, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 1 Cor 10:4, 9

Shall I list the hundreds of times Paul calls Jesus “Christ”?

There is not even a hint in these verses that “Christ” here means “Gods words” or the “Holy Spirit”.

Did they tempt “Gods teachings” or did they tempt God?

Can you supply one scripture that says “Christ” is the “Holy Spirit” or “his teachings”?  

Jesus said…

In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, “let him come unto me, and drink. Jn 7:37

Pretty clear actually If you have ears to hear, you will hear.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 08 2010,15:06)

WorshippingJesus, When a man and woman marry two family lines become one and thus they become one flesh.

Why does Paul call it a “Mystery” then Kerwin?

Do you know more than Paul?

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2010,14:06)

WorshippingJesus, When a man and woman marry two family lines become one and thus they become one flesh.

Kerwin

you mist the point;wen a women and a man become married in the promise of there fleshly love ,they promise fidelity,to each other,honesty,to be truthful ,respect,ect,
since God have made them female and male so that it takes both to procreate in this sense they are becoming one flesh.

so how is Christ similar to that picture?

God as chosen that all things will be united to his son and so become one with him,

this is the same as in a marriage two people separate but yet one in commitment to each other,

this is what it means with the groom and the bride the bride being the 144000 and the groom being Christ.

and now allow everyone who believe in Christ and connect with him with the godly commitment of faithfulness ,

will become one with him in the same spirit of commitment.

Pierre

[gollamudi]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,06:38)

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2010,11:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,03:00) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2010,10:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,02:30) You do not believe that YHVH has a son who is “One” with him and in every way is like him and who also shares the name of his Father. WJ Hi brother WJ, Greetings after a long time. Sorry to bother you. I just want to ask you on the above statement; I think Son is not same individual as Father in the Godhead if so are they not two Gods in Christianity at least as per your statement above? Hi GM Correct the Father and the Son are not the same person yet they are “One God”. God is Spirit. The very essence of who and what God is the Father and Jesus are. Just as a man and a woman are “One flesh” yet to persons. Just as there are many humans but only one humanity. WJ Right answer brother WJ. So you mean 'God' is also a collective or common noun like 'human' which can be plural? As per your statement God can be plural as man and woman who are separate individual human beings can be called as one flesh though not literally but in a figurative sense IMO. This is where I am having problem with our N.T which claims that  Father is God, son is God and Holy Spirit is God who are also separate individual beings but at the same time God is only one, Lord is one and the Spirit is one as per Eph 4. How this is possible? Is it not polytheism? Thanks and peace to you Adam GM One flesh is not figurative. The physical joining of two become one flesh. Paul calls it a Mystery. Though our minds cannot comprehend how man and woman can be “one flesh” yet be two persons, nevertheless it is so. There is only One Divine being who is God and that scripturally is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. WJ

Hi brother WJ,
Thanks again for your response on my query. You may be right in saying that man and woman become one flesh through sexual union to give birth to a child which will be one flesh as a result of this union. But what way this applies to God? What is the scriptural basis for such union of mystery as you stated above?

Again you contradict yourself by stating that God is only one divine being whereas you stated earlier Father who is God-being and is different individual from another God-being Son who is also different from third individual person Holy Spirit. How can this mystery be unveiled for human beings like us?

I find this so much complicated.

Peace to you
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,07:47)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 08 2010,14:52) WorshipingJesus, Is not 1 Corinthians 10:5-9 speaking of those that choose not to drink from the teachings of the Spirit and so rebel against God? Does their rebellion not show that they are unbelievers, As in Jude 1:4-5, as they reject the word of God? Kerwin No it clearly says the Rock they drank from was Christ. Christ is the Rock Kerwin and Christ was there. It was “The Rock” they rejected and tempted. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and “THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST”….”Neither let us tempt Christ“, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 1 Cor 10:4, 9 Shall I list the hundreds of times Paul calls Jesus “Christ”? There is not even a hint in these verses that “Christ” here means “Gods words” or the “Holy Spirit”. Did they tempt “Gods teachings” or did they tempt God? Can you supply one scripture that says “Christ” is the “Holy Spirit” or “his teachings”?   Jesus said… In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, “let him come unto me, and drink. Jn 7:37 Pretty clear actually If you have ears to hear, you will hear. WJ

Hi brother Kerwin,
Please accept that the writer Paul stated here about Christ as Rock. But I want to ask this writer how could he arrived of this conclusion of calling another person Rock when God alone is Rock as per Hebrew scriptures. Don't you think brother WJ is right here in stating that they tempted God and not somebody else in the wilderness? This is where I am frustrated to read N.T.

Peace to you
Adam

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Keith @ 1)

So it is that Jesus was not the Christ until he came in the flesh though Paul refers to the “Spiritual Rock” that followed the children of Israel as the same person “Christ”. You do get this don't you?

Okay, if Jesus wasn't God's “anointed one” yet in the wilderness, then what was he?  Oh, that's right!  He was the MESSENGER of God who was sent with the Israelites.  So either way you flip it – “anointed OF God” or “messenger OF God” – Jesus has always been and will always be OF God, Keith.  Nothing can both BE God and be OF God.  Jesus is the Son OF God, the messenger OF God, the Word OF God, a servant OF God, the Christ OF God, etc.  But this is for a different thread, isn't it?  I was hoping you would join Mark and I in the “Scriptures that prove Jesus is God” thread, but haven't seen you there yet.  I'll start all over on his scriptures if you want to come play.

Quote (Keith @ 2)

As far as God anointing God… I have the scripture that says he who was in very nature God, the Word that was with God and was God came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man.

Good.  Let's discuss those scriptures one at a time in the thread I mentioned above, shall we?

Quote (Keith @ 3)

You do not believe that YHVH has a son who is “One” with him and in every way is like him and who also shares the name of his Father.

I believe that YHVH has a Son who is like Him and is one with Him in purpose like we all should be, but his name is Jesus, not YHVH.

Hey Keith, it's good to chat with you again, but let's drop this off-topic stuff here.  I know I started it, but let's get back to helping Gene and Kerwin see the pre-existence of Jesus, okay?

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,06:38)

GM One flesh is not figurative. The physical joining of two become one flesh. Paul calls it a Mystery. Though our minds cannot comprehend how man and woman can be “one flesh” yet be two persons, nevertheless it is so.

Hi All,

I think this explains the mystery fairly well:

1 Corinthians 6:16 NIV
Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”

IMO, that is all that God meant by the “one flesh” thing.  He meant the man and woman would be conjoined during intercourse as one flesh.  At least I think that's how Paul understood it from the above scripture – and it makes much more sense than one being consisting of more than one person.

peace and love,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam………They were tempting GOD who gave the Anointing SPIRIT that was ON all his chosen leaders, that was the ROCK they rebelled against in the WILDERNESS. It was GOD himself not Jesus, GODS Spirit anointing was on many of His chosen leaders many scriptures show that and the angels also. Jesus had not even come into existence when the Childern of Israel were in the Wilderness. This is just Trinitarians and Preexistences garbage , No scripture say JESUS WAS THE SPIRITUAL ROCK THAT FOLLOWED ANYONE IN THE WILDERNESS. WJ has no idea what the Anointing ON JESUS the MAN is or WAS.

Paul nor anyone else did not know how the Spirit us (IN) Jesus nor does anyone else know that . The mystery WJ Keep relating to as all trinitarians and preexistences do has nothing to do with what he said. It has to do with (HOW GOD INDWELLS) JESUS AND OTHERS ALSO, no one KNOWS HOW that is DONE. Not then nor Now either for that matter. How does GOD come to live (IN) us a He did Jesus.How can he be (IN) ALL and Through ALL at the same time. That is the Mystery Paul was talking about maybe no one will ever really know How GOD does that. But we do know GOD can Pour forth of his Spirit on People Just as he did on the MAN JESUS. Remember “I SHALL POUR FORTH OF (MY) SPIRIT SAYS THE ALMIGHTY”, in Joel.

Remember Jesus in prayer said 'FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD” and i really don't think he was lying, as WJ Does. Adam all who SEPARATE OUR LIKENESS FROM JESUS AND ANTICHRISTS THERE IS NO TWO WAY ABOUT IT, THAT IS THE SPIRIT or (INTELLECT) OF ANTICHRIST John was talking about. it has taken over all Christendom and will remain that way until Jesus himself comes and abolishes those false teachings. 2 Ths 2, these false trinitarian and Preexistences teachers have turned the IMAGE of JESUS in to a MAN of SIN, By trying to create another true GOD and their day is soon coming much to their surprise and shame. Remember Our God said you shall have (NO) other GOD besides ME. If we keep these His commandments and not allow these false teachers to sway our clearly stated scriptures given to Us from GOD we will be Just Fine. And these deluded Trinitarians and Preexistences will soon come to a Stop at the return of Jesus our brother and soon coming KING, who will thoroughly straighten them out ounce and for all times. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Hi Keith,

Have you checked out the “pre-existent scripture database” thread yet? (also listed on page two of this thread)

Can you think of any to add to it?

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 09 2010,17:51)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,06:38) GM One flesh is not figurative. The physical joining of two become one flesh. Paul calls it a Mystery. Though our minds cannot comprehend how man and woman can be “one flesh” yet be two persons, nevertheless it is so. Hi All, I think this explains the mystery fairly well: 1 Corinthians 6:16 NIV Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” IMO, that is all that God meant by the “one flesh” thing.  He meant the man and woman would be conjoined during intercourse as one flesh.  At least I think that's how Paul understood it from the above scripture – and it makes much more sense than one being consisting of more than one person. peace and love, mike

Mike

what also as to be understood is that the highest commitment between man and women is the act that make them become one.

this is also why scriptures says “to enjoy live with the women of your Youth”

the love between that union is to taken very seriously,because that is what God as intended to this,

people today may see strange to see respect and deep affection for a women ,but it can also the most destructive player,(Salomon Knows)

it is said;Pr 31:10 A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
Pr 31:11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
Pr 31:12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.

this is also true to Christ and his bride(144k)the commitment of the bride to her King is without precedent,true love and so become one in spirit ,yes THE BOND OF THE SPIRIT,

Pierre

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 09 2010,11:06)

Adam………They were tempting GOD who gave the Anointing SPIRIT that was ON all his chosen leaders, that was the ROCK they rebelled against in the WILDERNESS. It was GOD himself not Jesus,  GODS Spirit anointing was on many of His chosen leaders many scriptures show that and the angels also. Jesus had not even come into existence  when the Childern of Israel were in the Wilderness. This is just Trinitarians and Preexistences garbage , No scripture say JESUS WAS THE SPIRITUAL ROCK THAT FOLLOWED ANYONE IN THE WILDERNESS. WJ has no idea what the Anointing ON JESUS the MAN is or WAS. Paul nor anyone else did not know how the Spirit us (IN) Jesus nor does anyone else know that . The mystery WJ Keep relating to as all trinitarians and preexistences do has nothing to do with what he said. It has to do with (HOW GOD INDWELLS) JESUS AND OTHERS ALSO, no one KNOWS HOW that is DONE. Not then nor Now either for that matter.  How does GOD come to live (IN) us a He did Jesus.How can he be (IN) ALL and Through ALL at the same time. That is the Mystery Paul was talking about maybe no one will ever really know How GOD does that. But we do know GOD can Pour forth of his Spirit on People Just as he did on the MAN JESUS. Remember “I SHALL POUR FORTH OF (MY) SPIRIT SAYS THE ALMIGHTY”,  in Joel. Remember Jesus in prayer said 'FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD” and i really don't think he was lying, as WJ Does. Adam all who SEPARATE OUR LIKENESS FROM JESUS AND ANTICHRISTS THERE IS NO TWO WAY ABOUT IT, THAT IS THE SPIRIT or (INTELLECT) OF ANTICHRIST John was talking about. it has taken over all Christendom  and will remain that way until Jesus himself comes and abolishes those false teachings. 2 Ths 2, these false trinitarian and Preexistences teachers have turned the IMAGE of JESUS in to a MAN of SIN,  By trying to create another true GOD and their day is soon coming much to their surprise and shame. Remember Our God said you shall have (NO) other GOD besides ME.  If we keep these His commandments and not allow these false teachers to sway our clearly stated scriptures given to Us from GOD we will be Just Fine. And these deluded Trinitarians and Preexistences will soon come to a Stop at the return of Jesus our brother and soon coming KING, who will thoroughly straighten them out ounce and for all times. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

If you are trying to make Jesus our king
aren't you also separating him from us? (John 6:15 / 1Samuel 12:17-19)

1Samuel 12:17-19 …that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great,
which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.
…for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.

John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would
come and take him by force, to make him a king,
he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

1Sam.8:7 …they have rejected me(Rev.19:16),
that I(HolySpirit) should not reign over them.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2010,11:42)

people today may see strange to see respect and deep affection for a women ,but it can also the most destructive player,(Salomon Knows)

Yes, Solomon also knows about the destructive part too, doesn't he? It was one of his wives that lead him away from Jehovah and to the worship of idols toward the end of his reign, right?

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus.

Could you please refresh my memory on where scripture calls the union between man and woman a mystery.

[kerwin]

To all,

My description of flesh was too limited as each partner in a marriage is to treat the other as themselves. If your spouse is ill then it as if you, yourself is ill. If your spouse rejoices then you too rejoice.

Mike Boll,

Is that the same as stating when you have sex with someone then you have sex with all their partners? If not then could you please explain your understanding, i.e. revealation?

[Ed J]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2010,15:07)

Worshipping Jesus. Could you please refresh my memory on where scripture calls the union between man and woman a mystery.

Hi Kerwin,

He's referring to Eph.5:31-32

Eph.5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother,
and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

I prefer your definition of two separate families into “One big happy Family”,
rather than an incoherent two essences into one essence; this doesn't make sense!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Ed J. Worshipping Jesus;

Thank you.  I still believe that is refering to the idea of the church being the body and Christ being the head.  I believe Paul makes the point that when one suffers we all suffer with him.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2010,22:30)

Ed J. Worshipping Jesus; Thank you.  I still believe that is refering to the idea of the church being the body and Christ being the head.  I believe Paul makes the point that when one suffers we all suffer with him.

Kerwin

you mist the point;wen a women and a man become married in the promise of there fleshly love ,they promise fidelity,to each other,honesty,to be truthful ,respect,ect,
since God have made them female and male so that it takes both to procreate in this sense they are becoming one flesh.

so how is Christ similar to that picture?

God as chosen that all things will be united to his son and so become one with him,

this is the same as in a marriage two people separate but yet one in commitment to each other,

this is what it means with the groom and the bride the bride being the 144000 and the groom being Christ.

and now allow everyone who believe in Christ and connect with him with the godly commitment of faithfulness ,

will become one with him in the same spirit of commitment.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Pierre,

I agree that marriage by definition is a commitment. I was instead speaking of the fruit of that commitment to Ed J. and Worshipping Jesus.

[Author]

Posts