Preexistence

Blocked

Hi Irene,

That's interesting. I never equated “divinity” with “immortality”……..but then I never really thought about it.

I just looked at Dictionary.com, and I find no synonym relating to “immortality”, although the word “divine” does relate to qualities of God or “a god”. And “immortality” would definitely be a quality of God.

I'm stumped. I'll wait to see what t8 answers because I find no distinguishing use in scripture either.

mike

November 28, 2010 at 7:48 pm#226953

Participant

Mike Boll,

You fail to understand the point I was making. I was not supporting any particular doctrine but rather pointing out the literal interpretation of particular scriptures. I did not infer anything from scripture and chose only point out what the literal interpretation is, including leaving vague what the scripture left vague. The literal interpretation, though exactly what scripture states, is incomplete in at least some cases.

You wish to discuss the implied and/or inferred definition of a particular scripture. That requires logical reasoning and some claim that is ungodly. They also claim that since you, a human being, are the one they see doing the reasoning that you must be using human reasoning.

So if we cannot agree on a method to understand scripture then how can we agree on the correct understanding of scripture?

I would be happy to discuss why I believe scripture teaches us that the spirit of righteousness comes from above and thus those who live by it do to. In addition I also have been taught that anyone sent by God is sent from heaven. To discuss these things and others logic based on godly principles must be regarded as an acceptable tool and anything it reveals when used correctly as from God and not man.

I choose not to believe that the conjectural understanding of unbelievers, whom also thought Jesus was speaking of literal flesh, comes from above. If you wish to believe as they did and may still then the consequences are on you.

November 28, 2010 at 8:09 pm#226955

Participant

T8,

I attempted to clarify my point in all but the last paragraph of my last post to Mike Boll. Please read it as I will assume you did for the rest of my response.

First even literal interpretations can vary as the definitions of words like “divine” have different meaning. Context is important but logical reasoning is necessary to determine what meaning is implied.

You thus are making the argument the verses you mention imply that additional statements in scripture support your viewpoint.

Is such reasoning godly? If so how do you determine it is?

Two questions related to you reasoning though. First, Did the unbelieving Jews correctly understand the previous point Jesus was making that led them to ask “you are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham?” If they did not then why do you think Jesus was not attempting to correct their misunderstanding as the teacher he was and is?

Second, In Philippians 2 when speaking of Jesus having the nature of God what is Paul teaching to Christians?

November 29, 2010 at 2:21 am#226977

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 29 2010,05:20)

Hi Irene,

That's interesting. I never equated “divinity” with “immortality”……..but then I never really thought about it.

I'm stumped. I'll wait to see what t8 answers because I find no distinguishing use in scripture either.

mike

Mike! A long time ago I had come across what immortality and what divinity was. I always ask Georg for His opinion, and that is what He taught me. I don't remember any Scripture He gave me, but He always does. He is sleeping right now, so I can't ask Him, but I will in the morning…..Irene

November 29, 2010 at 2:34 am#226979

Participant

Mike! i found this on the internet…

Immortality
He who does not aspire thinks that Immortality is an impossibility. He who aspires feels that immortality is a sure possibility. He who has realised God knows that immortality is an absolute reality.

“'Impossible!' That is not good French,” says Napoleon.

“'Impossible!' That is not good self-discovery.” This is what I say.

Today's self-discovery is tomorrow's immortality.

It is good to be immortal, but it is infinitely better to be divine. Socrates said something quite memorable: “All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are both immortal and divine.”

If divinity looms large inside immortality, then only can reality be all-embracing, all-sustaining and all-fulfilling.

The outer life is humanity. The inner life is immortality. The life around is reality. The life above is divinity. The life below is obscurity.

When divinity descends into humanity, the soul of humanity becomes hopeful. When divinity descends into immortality, the soul of immortality becomes meaningful. When divinity enters into reality, the soul of reality becomes fruitful. When divinity enters into obscurity, the soul of obscurity becomes prayerful.

God inspires man with His immortal Inspiration. Man realises God with his immortal self-consecration. God meditates on man for his immortal perfection. Man meditates on God for His immortal Manifestation.

To copy others is an act of stupidity. To copy oneself is an act of absurdity. To imitate God is to imitate Immortality. When we imitate God, our life of imagination ends and our life of realisation dawns.

How can we imitate God when we do not know who God is? God is the Man Divine, supremely inspiring there in heaven and supremely sacrificing here on earth.

What is immortality? Immortality is the consciousness divine that eternally grows and endlessly flows. While growing, it reaches God the Transcendental; while flowing, it reaches God the Universal.

The body says, “Life is but pressure.” The vital says, “Life is but pleasure.” The mind says, “Life is the homeland of ideas.” The heart says, “Life is the homeland of ideals.” The soul says, “Life is the homeland of experiences.” God says, “Life is the homeland of immortality.”

Mother Earth symbolises human aspiration. Hence it is a woman in the Upanishads, Maitreyi, who teaches humanity the highest aspiration toward God: “Of what use to me are things that do not make me immortal?”

Let us be inseparably one with Maitreyi and feel that mortality's binding consciousness is bound to be flooded with the boundless consciousness of Immortality.

O aspiring man, go deep within. Listen to God whisper, “My child, you are good. Therefore I have made you My Infinity's Heart. My child, you are nice. Therefore I have made you My Eternity's Breath. My child, you are great. Therefore I have made you My Immortality's Life.”

I found this interesting but somewhat confusing…….Irene

November 29, 2010 at 3:01 am#226984

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 29 2010,12:34)

I found this interesting but somewhat confusing…….Irene

I concur Irene!

Many of the quotes DO mention immortality as something quite different from divinity though.

mike

November 29, 2010 at 3:14 am#226985

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2010,05:48)

So if we cannot agree on a method to understand scripture then how can we agree on the correct understanding of scripture?

Hi Kerwin,

We already know your “method”. If any scripture sounds like it talks about the pre-existence of Jesus, you “method” it out to mean something “metaphorical”.

And that results in me beating my head against a wall.

Kerwin, there are now 45 scriptures in our database posted on page 2 of this thread. If you are willing, I would like to see you post each scripture – one at a time, start to finish – and list a very brief explanation as to why you don't think it refers to Jesus' pre-existence.

Maybe this exercise will at least bring to light all the times you have to say, “Well, he says HE came down from heaven, but I THINK he's talking about his righteousness coming down from heaven” and other such things.

And once you realize the sheer number of times you have to “explain” that the words written SHOULD MEAN something else, you might be able to see what you are doing in a new light.

Are you up for it? We won't comment on your explanations, but only keep track of how many times you must explain that the words mean something other than what they clearly say.

peace and love,
mike

November 29, 2010 at 4:53 am#226991

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 29 2010,04:51)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 28 2010,19:56)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 27 2010,18:04)

The “form” of God is spirit, divinity, immortality, is what God “gave” him after he finished his work here on earth.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself (divinity, immortality); so hath he “given” to the Son to have life in himself (divinity, immortality);

And some of the “saints” will share in Jesus' divinity.

Georg

But he existed in that form, then emptied himself and existed in human flesh. It appears to be that order.

Of course he is now at the right hand of the Father in the glory that he has with him before the world began, so he has returned.

t8 I always was under the imprecision, that if you have divinity that you could never die again. But He did die for us. The glory He had with His Father before the world began, He was a Spirit Being. That He emptied Himself of and became flesh. He went back to that glory and His reward for dying for us that now He has divinity (Immortality) and will never die again….Irene

Hi Sis Irene,
This is the mythology of our N.T. If Jesus was God or divine certainly he must have been immortal in the past. If he actually died on the cross as a human it would be against his nature as divine. That is the reason why I don't see Jesus as divine or God or a god as brother Mike quotes here. Paul talks in dual language of preexistence as well as no-preexistence as I quoted from 1 Tim 2:5.

Yes brother Mike there is relationship of this verse with no-preexistence. Paul says Jesus is still human even in his glorified state after his resurrection into a glorified body. I don't know about his flesh and bones' body as the Gospels seem to claim. According to Paul it may not be correct as he states flesh and blood can not inherit kingdom of God. Gnosticism insisted no incarnation as it will not fit into their ever remaining God figure of Jesus. But Christian writers were not free from such Docetism. Paul and other writers talked about Jesus being God or divine in many folds in different context. This is where I am critical about the N.T.

Please don't blame me for such contradictions on Jesus' personality.

Peace to you
Adam

November 29, 2010 at 10:44 am#227004

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 29 2010,14:53)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 29 2010,04:51)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 28 2010,19:56)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 27 2010,18:04)

The “form” of God is spirit, divinity, immortality, is what God “gave” him after he finished his work here on earth.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself (divinity, immortality); so hath he “given” to the Son to have life in himself (divinity, immortality);

And some of the “saints” will share in Jesus' divinity.

Georg

But he existed in that form, then emptied himself and existed in human flesh. It appears to be that order.

Of course he is now at the right hand of the Father in the glory that he has with him before the world began, so he has returned.

Please don't blame me for such contradictions on Jesus' personality.

Peace to you
Adam

Adam! Then explain

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

He took on the form of a Servant, formed in a fashion as a man. If Jesus already was a man, He did not have to say that.?… or do that?….
Besides that, you also will now have to explain over 40 other Scriptures, that you just have to explain away….You see Adam there is no contradiction if you have the truth…. those are your understanding of Scriptures in the NT, and not true….the Bible explains itself….show me one contradiction in the NT…..I agree that there might be some as each Apostles explains the genealogy……We also have to remember that all other Scriptures are written with the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit……and therefore come from God…..Let me give you one explanation. THE trinity Doctrine, there are several Scriptures that tell us that God is one. There is one Scripture in Math. that does not go along with it. WJ is quoting this…..And He is bias…..
You also can't grasp that Jesus became flesh, read it again in

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jhn 1:6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.

Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.

Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.

Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace…..

I know that some just can't unerstand that john1:1-14 is talking about who became Jesus, however if you take this Scripture it makes it clear.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

is there any other being that fits that description???

Irene

November 29, 2010 at 4:35 pm#227021

Ed J

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 29 2010,13:14)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2010,05:48)

So if we cannot agree on a method to understand scripture then how can we agree on the correct understanding of scripture?

Hi Kerwin,

We already know your “method”. If any scripture sounds like it talks about the pre-existence of Jesus, you “method” it out to mean something “metaphorical”.

peace and love,
mike

Hi Mike,

How do you know when to switch from a “literal physical” to a “Spiritual metaphorical“?
If you only want to consider the latter when you cannot ascribe a “literal physical“ meaning…

Consider this “Bible Truth”:

The Jews thought the Messiah was going to sit as “literal physical” king (John 6:15),
but YHVH really meant instead a “Spiritual Metaphorical” kingship. (Rev.17:14)

The “literal physical:” John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and
take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
“Spiritual metaphorical“: Rev.17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and
the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings:
and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 29, 2010 at 4:50 pm#227023

GeneBalthrop

Participant

TO ALL……….All who believe Jesus preexisted his berth on earth other than in the Plan and will of God (ARE SEPARATISTS) and their work is a work of MYSTERY Religion, that separates us from Jesus, handed down form the Gnostic's of Johns day. It is the SPIRIT (INTELLECT) that John was talking about by saying the SPIRIT of ANTICHRIST. Jesus is and was always a son of Man and will return as a SON OF MAN , Jesus was the first from MANKIND to fulfill what GOD has in Mind fro ALL MANKIND. WE are called Brothers of His and Joint Heirs with him, we can attain to the measure of the (FULL) stature of Jesus, as scripture say we can. These Separatist are totally against the work of GOD in the man Jesus and the work of the man Jesus himself. They force the text to fit there dogmas as all trinitarians and Gnostic's do and did, They have turned Jesus into the MAN OF SIN and do not even know how they are doing it. They are unable to read 2 Ths 2 and understand what it is saying about the (FALSE) IMAGE of Jesus which they are creating by their false PREEXISTENCE teachings. Some here say they are not trinitarians , but still push their false teaching of Jesus being different then a human being giving his a creator status and saying he was some kind of Morphed Super angel who GOD incarnated into a human form while he was on the earth and was only passing him off as one of us but he really was not. Pure Garbage teachings.

Jesus was and still is a Human being who was born into existence Just as we all are absolutely (NO) DIFFERENCE between HIM AND US. And what GOD did for Jesus he can also do for US. Because Jesus (IS) SON OF MAN JUST AS WE ARE. DO NOT BUY INTO (THE LIE) spoken of in 2Ths 2, PREACHED BY TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES. Stay away from it like the plague it is. Remember it say “COME OUR OF HER MY PEOPLE THAT YOU RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES. This LIE ABOUT JESUS IS A PLAGUE It works just like and invisible Plague of the Mind and does just as much damage if not more. IMO

peace and love to you all………………………………gene

November 30, 2010 at 3:20 am#227086

Blocked

Adam:

Quote

That is the reason why I don't see Jesus as divine or God or a god as brother Mike quotes here.

But do you think Satan is “a god” Adam? Paul calls him the “god” of this age. How about the men that Jehovah called “gods”? How about Jehovah saying Jesus would be called “mighty god”?

Listen very carefully Adam, because I keep saying it but you don't seem to be getting it.

“god” means “mighty one”.

Adam, is Jesus a mighty one? Or do you think him a weakling or something?

peace and love,
mike

November 30, 2010 at 7:58 am#227105

terraricca

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 29 2010,20:14)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2010,05:48)

So if we cannot agree on a method to understand scripture then how can we agree on the correct understanding of scripture?

Hi Kerwin,

We already know your “method”. If any scripture sounds like it talks about the pre-existence of Jesus, you “method” it out to mean something “metaphorical”.

And that results in me beating my head against a wall.

And once you realize the sheer number of times you have to “explain” that the words written SHOULD MEAN something else, you might be able to see what you are doing in a new light.

Are you up for it? We won't comment on your explanations, but only keep track of how many times you must explain that the words mean something other than what they clearly say.

peace and love,
mike

Mike

you will wait for long time for this ,i still wait for those answers,

kerwin does not answer what is not of his conviction regardless of the scriptures truth.

Pierre
feeding on our agape.

November 30, 2010 at 12:21 pm#227122

Participant

Mike Boll,

I am not ashamed of my way of applying metaphysical, i.e. spiritual, point of view methods as Jesus is well known to speak in metaphysical terms so as to hide the truth from those who are perishing. That is why the unbelieving Jews and even those that are believers had trouble understanding his teaching. He expected his students to think through what he taught and to apply godly principles to understand them. If they failed to do so he told them flat out they did not understand because their understanding was from below and not from above, John 8:42-43. Jesus tells us himself that his words are spirit. Do you not believe him?

I could give a spiritual interpretation for the 45 scriptures you and others have conjectured to support your belief in preexistence but I tend to get overly verbose at times and thus do not know if I could keep any such explanation of them brief. I do address them from time to time as I find that to be an easier way to address scripture than in mass. I will most likely keep to that custom.

Now my challenge to you is for you to reasonably explain why you believe those scriptures imply or infer that Jesus preexisted his conception as I have not yet heard one scripture that implicitly states Jesus did. Could you also point out a scripture that implicitly states Jesus is or was an immaterial being as I have yet to read one of those either. Failing that you should put together a database of those scriptures you believe imply or infer that. I have read several that implicitly that he is a human being and others that infer or imply the same thing.

As support my metaphysical point of view that Jesus is teaching that his spirit is from God, i.e. heaven, look to John 8:23-24 and John 8:44. In is not clear to the spiritually discerning that these verses teach that those who follow Satan’s commands are from below even as Satan is below and those that follow God’s commands are from above even as God is above?

The meaning of Jesus’ teaching is only meant to be clear to those that seek God for Jesus was only teaching those with “eyes to see and ears to hear”. Be careful to test your point of view to make sure you are such a one.

November 30, 2010 at 3:33 pm#227134

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2010,22:21)

Mike Boll,

Kerwin, how in the world can you just ignore 45 Scriptures, and deny them what they say? Unless you interpret those Scriptures. some are plainly written. when you read what John says in John 1:1-14 and Rev. 19:13-16, how can that be any other being but Jesus. He is the ONE who died for us and has a robe ob dipped in blood. He is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. There is no other being that fits that description….Irene

November 30, 2010 at 5:34 pm#227139

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 01 2010,08:33)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2010,22:21)

Mike Boll,

Irene

December 1, 2010 at 2:45 am#227199

Blocked

Kerwin:

Quote

Could you also point out a scripture that implicitly states Jesus is or was an immaterial being as I have yet to read one of those either.

1 Cor 10 NIV
3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

1 Cor 15 NIV
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

So Christ was a SPIRITUAL rock. And Christ BECAME a life-giving SPIRIT. Are those things “immaterial” enough for ya?

Kerwin:

Quote

Oh, you've heard them alright Kerwin. You just won't accept them. But okay, if you don't want to go through the 45 scriptures, I'll do it with you…..one at a time.

Notice as we do this how far you have to bend over backwards to TRY and make it seem like it DOESN'T speak about the pre-existence of Jesus. I will be the one taking the words as they are written. You will be the one trying to make up a different meaning to those words. Ready?

Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

Kerwin, I take this to mean that the origin of Jesus was from ancient times from the viewpoint of Micah, who lived hundreds of years before Jesus came in the flesh.

What do YOU take it to mean?

mike

December 1, 2010 at 4:04 am#227208

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 28 2010,04:23)

T8……..Yes Jesus existed (past tense) in the Nature of GOD because he had the fullness of the Spirit (IN) Him WHILE HE WAS (ON) EARTH. Paul was drawing their attention to when Jesus was walking on the earth, not before that time. He did not say Jesus existed before he came to earth with that nature as you suppose he did, You are reading that into the text by taking it out of context. T8 come on surely you can see that right?

You see that because you want it to be that way.
But it says he existed in the form of God, then emptied himself and existed in human flesh.

Now if it is true what you say, then explain the bit about existing in flesh after the emptying of himself which was after him existing in the form of God/divine nature?

December 1, 2010 at 10:20 am#227239