Preexistence

[kerwin]

Pierre,

Godly understanding appears to be the interpretation of a man when a human being uses it. The difference is worldly understanding seeks to justify sins or in some other way render you incapable of overcoming them while godly understanding gives you the power of God to stop sinning and thus love as God loves.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2010,18:01)

Pierre, Godly understanding appears to be the interpretation of a man when a human being uses it.  The difference is worldly understanding seeks to justify sins or in some other way render you incapable of overcoming them while godly understanding gives you the power of God to stop sinning and thus love as God loves.

kerwin

no,that is not what it is;godly understanding;comes after man as done first ;take knowledge of God word and of Christ the one he send;

the second step ;is letting God spirit guide you within his written word to interpret his own word and thoughts,

and what comes out is called godly understanding.and truth.

Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2010,06:25)

Irene, None of those scriptures explicitly state Jesus is preexistence and therefore you must reach that conclusion by interpretation.  You are a human being and therefore you are going by the interpretation of a human being to arrive at what you believe those scriptures imply. I hope God has granted you freedom from pain or at least a lessening of it.

Kerwin, sorry but you are wrong. Those Scriptures and more show even by Jesus own words that HE was for one the firstborn of all creation, and that He said:” I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, NOT TO DO MY WILL, BUT THE WILL OF HIM THAT SEND ME.” Plainly written and easy to understand….I also showed you Rev.19:13-16 that Jesus was and is “The Word of God….He will come back as KING OF KINGS AND loORD OF LORDS…i FIND IT ALSO INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY THAT WE INTERPRET SCRIPTURES, WHICH I DO NOT…..I READ THEM THEY WAY THEY ARE WRITTEN….ONE MORE THING, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MY BRAIN….IT'S MY ARM….AND IT IS GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT THAT TEACHES ME, AND NOT MY UNDERSTANDING AT ALL…..Irene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 27 2010,00:37)

T8……….See that the problem here you and some others are doing exactly what you accuse us of. You are bringing you Biases to that table which you recieved from your Trinitarian pasts, and the Trinitarians Bring to the table what they recieved from their Gnostic Past.

Try again Gene.

I am reading the scripture at face value and not adding anything or taking away anything. Just reading it as it is.

“Although he existed in the form of God…”

I am not putting any twist on this one for example.
You are doing that however. I don't need to do it.
The scripture speaks for itself.
I can merely quote it, and you cannot.
I have never heard you say that Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature).

[Baker]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 21 2010,09:03)

Hi Everyone,                         Our Preexistence Yes, we all preexisted our physical flesh! Thanks very much for your concern in this matter! 2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)                        “The Word” in us! John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit), because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning. Acts 12:24 But “The word” of God grew and multiplied.                          More evidence:   Jer.1:5 Before I(YHVH) formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I(YHVH) ordained thee(Jeremiah) a prophet unto the nations. Jude:1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed

God knows the end from the beginning, that does not mean “WE” have 'preexisted”.
God knows every person before they are born, what he will do, how old he will get, will he get sick, etc.
He chooses some to do his work, like Jeremiah, before he was born; that is not “preexisting”.
We speak of Jesus' preexisting before he became man, that is true, but even he (Jesus) had a beginning, was born, brought forth.
Even though God chose his son to become “our” savior, it was Jesus who had to voluntary except that challenge.

Georg

[Baker]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2010,14:11)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 27 2010,00:37) T8……….See that the problem here you and some others are doing exactly what you accuse us of. You are bringing you Biases to that table which you recieved from your Trinitarian pasts, and the Trinitarians Bring to the table what they recieved from their Gnostic Past. Try again Gene. I am reading the scripture at face value and not adding anything or taking away anything. Just reading it as it is. “Although he existed in the form of God…” I am not putting any twist on this one for example. You are doing that however. I don't need to do it. The scripture speaks for itself. I can merely quote it, and you cannot. I have never heard you say that Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature).

t8

The “form” of God is spirit, divinity, immortality, is what God “gave” him after he finished his work here on earth.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself (divinity, immortality); so hath he “given” to the Son to have life in himself (divinity, immortality);

And some of the “saints” will share in Jesus' divinity.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the “divine nature”, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Georg

[shimmer]

Adam and Gene, sorry I forgot I had posted here….I agree, He is interesting that man (Ray…?)

Hope your well. God bless.

[kerwin]

Irene,

I come down from heaven is a vague statement that means in some unknown sense the speaker comes from God. English is like that in you really need to understand the context in which the user is speaking or writing. Jesus often does not give the context leaving his hearers to figure it out for themselves. It is a teaching method.

It does not mention preexistence.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 27 2010,00:55)

Adam………When i was in the same Church they taught that we would be fully GOD as GOD is GOD and that Jesus is now fully GOD , That GOD was a Family and that we would have the same power as GOD has. I never agreed with that , but i do believe in being part of GOD'S Family they same way Jesus is and there is a relationship of Father and Sons that implies Family, So the concept of GOD and Family does not bother me at all, but id do  not believe we are ever going to achieve the full stature of GOD the FATHER and I Believe no one can or ever will for that matter.  But we certainly can be accepted as sons and Daughter of HIS in a Family sense. IMO L. Ray Smith has a lot of good points and scriptural understanding , and he doesn't think he knows it all and will change if show clearly something different and if it is proved to him. I believe he also believes in the preexistence of Jesus to , not really sure of that though. Last i heard from him he was suffering from advanced stage of cancer, don't Know if he is still alive or not. I will have to check his sit out again. He is a good solid teacher in many thing though, i will give him that. peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

Hi brother Gene,
Thanks for your response above. In fact I also oriented towards his (Ray Smith's) initially when I began my long journey of search on truth on Trinity. But I found certain flaws in his statement of faith and I left his ideas. Yes he also believes preexistence of Jesus. This one verse caused disturbance  for my Trinitarian beliefs- 1 Tim 2:5
“For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,”
I wonder how Paul could write such non-preexistence words?

Any how I leave it to brothers Mike, T8 and sis Irene for its interpretation.

Love and peace to you
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2010,14:11)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 27 2010,00:37) T8……….See that the problem here you and some others are doing exactly what you accuse us of. You are bringing you Biases to that table which you recieved from your Trinitarian pasts, and the Trinitarians Bring to the table what they recieved from their Gnostic Past. Try again Gene. I am reading the scripture at face value and not adding anything or taking away anything. Just reading it as it is. “Although he existed in the form of God…” I am not putting any twist on this one for example. You are doing that however. I don't need to do it. The scripture speaks for itself. I can merely quote it, and you cannot. I have never heard you say that Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature).

T8……..Yes Jesus existed (past tense) in the Nature of GOD because he had the fullness of the Spirit (IN) Him WHILE HE WAS (ON) EARTH. Paul was drawing their attention to when Jesus was walking on the earth, not before that time. He did not say Jesus existed before he came to earth with that nature as you suppose he did, You are reading that into the text by taking it out of context. T8 come on surely you can see that right?

peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 28 2010,02:45)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 27 2010,00:55) Adam………When i was in the same Church they taught that we would be fully GOD as GOD is GOD and that Jesus is now fully GOD , That GOD was a Family and that we would have the same power as GOD has. I never agreed with that , but i do believe in being part of GOD'S Family they same way Jesus is and there is a relationship of Father and Sons that implies Family, So the concept of GOD and Family does not bother me at all, but id do  not believe we are ever going to achieve the full stature of GOD the FATHER and I Believe no one can or ever will for that matter.  But we certainly can be accepted as sons and Daughter of HIS in a Family sense. IMO L. Ray Smith has a lot of good points and scriptural understanding , and he doesn't think he knows it all and will change if show clearly something different and if it is proved to him. I believe he also believes in the preexistence of Jesus to , not really sure of that though. Last i heard from him he was suffering from advanced stage of cancer, don't Know if he is still alive or not. I will have to check his sit out again. He is a good solid teacher in many thing though, i will give him that. peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene Hi brother Gene, Thanks for your response above. In fact I also oriented towards his (Ray Smith's) initially when I began my long journey of search on truth on Trinity. But I found certain flaws in his statement of faith and I left his ideas. Yes he also believes preexistence of Jesus. This one verse caused disturbance  for my Trinitarian beliefs- 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,” I wonder how Paul could write such non-preexistence words? Any how I leave it to brothers Mike, T8 and sis Irene for its interpretation. Love and peace to you Adam

Adam…………Because Paul knew Jesus was Pure Human all along and nothing more that a Human being (exactly as we are) brother.

peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 28 2010,11:26)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 28 2010,02:45) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 27 2010,00:55) Adam………When i was in the same Church they taught that we would be fully GOD as GOD is GOD and that Jesus is now fully GOD , That GOD was a Family and that we would have the same power as GOD has. I never agreed with that , but i do believe in being part of GOD'S Family they same way Jesus is and there is a relationship of Father and Sons that implies Family, So the concept of GOD and Family does not bother me at all, but id do  not believe we are ever going to achieve the full stature of GOD the FATHER and I Believe no one can or ever will for that matter.  But we certainly can be accepted as sons and Daughter of HIS in a Family sense. IMO L. Ray Smith has a lot of good points and scriptural understanding , and he doesn't think he knows it all and will change if show clearly something different and if it is proved to him. I believe he also believes in the preexistence of Jesus to , not really sure of that though. Last i heard from him he was suffering from advanced stage of cancer, don't Know if he is still alive or not. I will have to check his sit out again. He is a good solid teacher in many thing though, i will give him that. peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene Hi brother Gene, Thanks for your response above. In fact I also oriented towards his (Ray Smith's) initially when I began my long journey of search on truth on Trinity. But I found certain flaws in his statement of faith and I left his ideas. Yes he also believes preexistence of Jesus. This one verse caused disturbance  for my Trinitarian beliefs- 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,” I wonder how Paul could write such non-preexistence words? Any how I leave it to brothers Mike, T8 and sis Irene for its interpretation. Love and peace to you Adam Adam…………Because Paul knew Jesus was Pure Human all along and nothing more that a Human being (exactly as we are) brother. peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………………gene

Gene and Adam

you look more like two people loving the same kind of ice cream

Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 28 2010,02:45)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 27 2010,00:55) Adam………When i was in the same Church they taught that we would be fully GOD as GOD is GOD and that Jesus is now fully GOD , That GOD was a Family and that we would have the same power as GOD has. I never agreed with that , but i do believe in being part of GOD'S Family they same way Jesus is and there is a relationship of Father and Sons that implies Family, So the concept of GOD and Family does not bother me at all, but id do  not believe we are ever going to achieve the full stature of GOD the FATHER and I Believe no one can or ever will for that matter.  But we certainly can be accepted as sons and Daughter of HIS in a Family sense. IMO L. Ray Smith has a lot of good points and scriptural understanding , and he doesn't think he knows it all and will change if show clearly something different and if it is proved to him. I believe he also believes in the preexistence of Jesus to , not really sure of that though. Last i heard from him he was suffering from advanced stage of cancer, don't Know if he is still alive or not. I will have to check his sit out again. He is a good solid teacher in many thing though, i will give him that. peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene Hi brother Gene, Thanks for your response above. In fact I also oriented towards his (Ray Smith's) initially when I began my long journey of search on truth on Trinity. But I found certain flaws in his statement of faith and I left his ideas. Yes he also believes preexistence of Jesus. This one verse caused disturbance  for my Trinitarian beliefs- 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,” I wonder how Paul could write such non-preexistence words? Any how I leave it to brothers Mike, T8 and sis Irene for its interpretation. Love and peace to you Adam

Adam

1Ti 2:5   For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  

this Scripture has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus, but everything what Jesus became.  After

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:  

Phl 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  

Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:  

Phl 2:8   And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.  

Along with

Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

In order to be the firstborn of all creation, would you not say that Jesus had to be there before He became a man?  I think so…

Also by Jesus own words He said this

Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  

In order to be send, He also had to be there.  And where was He send from?  

Jhn 6:39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  

Adam these a plain Scriptures that need no interpretation, just read them the way they are written….Irene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2010,21:12)

Irene, I come down from heaven is a vague statement that means in some unknown sense the speaker comes from God.   English is like that in you really need to understand the context in which the user is speaking or writing.  Jesus often does not give the context leaving his hearers to figure it out for themselves.  It is a teaching method.   It does not mention preexistence.

But there are statements are are also very clear.
Although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself, and existed in human flesh.

The Jews said, “you are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham?” Jesus replied, “before Abraham was, I am”.

So yes there are vague statements and there are clear ones.
The clear ones do not go away because of the vague ones.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 27 2010,18:04)

t8 The “form” of God is spirit, divinity, immortality, is what God “gave” him after he finished his work here on earth. Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself (divinity, immortality); so hath he “given” to the Son to have life in himself (divinity, immortality);     And some of the “saints” will share in Jesus' divinity. 2Pe 1:4   Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the “divine nature”, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.   Georg

But he existed in that form, then emptied himself and existed in human flesh. It appears to be that order.

Of course he is now at the right hand of the Father in the glory that he has with him before the world began, so he has returned.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2010,20:21)

Mike Boll, It is my understanding that because of their unbelief the Jews failed to understand the spiritual message of what Jesus was teaching.  Since they misunderstood the message what they believed he said was was not what he meant. He even makes a statement to the effect in John 6:64-65.

Hi Kerwin,

So Jesus said “I came DOWN FROM HEAVEN”. The Jews completely understood what he was saying. But it is your contention that the Jews were wrong in their understanding of what he was saying?

Why?

Jesus said it, and I believe it. Why don't you?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2010,21:12)

Irene, I come down from heaven is a vague statement that means in some unknown sense the speaker comes from God.

Hi Kerwin,

David was a man of God, right? God was pleased that he followed His commands. He did much to lead the Israelites back to Jehovah.

But scripture never says that David came down from heaven, nor that he had glory in God's presence before the creation of the world.

But what if it did? If David said, “I came down from heaven to do God's will”, how would you take it? I would understand it as David was in heaven, but then came down from heaven.

How about you? And why?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 28 2010,02:45)

“For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,” I wonder how Paul could write such non-preexistence words? Any how I leave it to brothers Mike, T8 and sis Irene for its interpretation.

Hi Adam,

I don't get the connection.  This passage might be used to argue that once Jesus became human, he stayed that way, although there are also scriptures that say flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God – where Jesus is right now.

Also, Paul says,

48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

Are those “MEN” in heaven actually “human beings” like we on earth are Adam?  I think Paul is stating “anthropos” here to mean “person”, not specifically “human being”.

And finally, what does Jesus being a “man” now have to do with the fact that he existed in the form of God before ever becoming a man?  Nothing.

mike

[Baker]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 28 2010,05:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 28 2010,11:26) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 28 2010,02:45) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 27 2010,00:55) Adam………When i was in the same Church they taught that we would be fully GOD as GOD is GOD and that Jesus is now fully GOD , That GOD was a Family and that we would have the same power as GOD has. I never agreed with that , but i do believe in being part of GOD'S Family they same way Jesus is and there is a relationship of Father and Sons that implies Family, So the concept of GOD and Family does not bother me at all, but id do  not believe we are ever going to achieve the full stature of GOD the FATHER and I Believe no one can or ever will for that matter.  But we certainly can be accepted as sons and Daughter of HIS in a Family sense. IMO L. Ray Smith has a lot of good points and scriptural understanding , and he doesn't think he knows it all and will change if show clearly something different and if it is proved to him. I believe he also believes in the preexistence of Jesus to , not really sure of that though. Last i heard from him he was suffering from advanced stage of cancer, don't Know if he is still alive or not. I will have to check his sit out again. He is a good solid teacher in many thing though, i will give him that. peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene Hi brother Gene, Thanks for your response above. In fact I also oriented towards his (Ray Smith's) initially when I began my long journey of search on truth on Trinity. But I found certain flaws in his statement of faith and I left his ideas. Yes he also believes preexistence of Jesus. This one verse caused disturbance  for my Trinitarian beliefs- 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,” I wonder how Paul could write such non-preexistence words? Any how I leave it to brothers Mike, T8 and sis Irene for its interpretation. Love and peace to you Adam Adam…………Because Paul knew Jesus was Pure Human all along and nothing more that a Human being (exactly as we are) brother. peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………………gene Gene and Adam you look more like two people loving the same kind of ice cream Pierre

funny

[Baker]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 28 2010,19:56)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 27 2010,18:04) t8 The “form” of God is spirit, divinity, immortality, is what God “gave” him after he finished his work here on earth. Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself (divinity, immortality); so hath he “given” to the Son to have life in himself (divinity, immortality);     And some of the “saints” will share in Jesus' divinity. 2Pe 1:4   Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the “divine nature”, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.   Georg But he existed in that form, then emptied himself and existed in human flesh. It appears to be that order. Of course he is now at the right hand of the Father in the glory that he has with him before the world began, so he has returned.

t8 I always was under the imprecision, that if you have divinity that you could never die again. But He did die for us. The glory He had with His Father before the world began, He was a Spirit Being. That He emptied Himself of and became flesh. He went back to that glory and His reward for dying for us that now He has divinity (Immortality) and will never die again….Irene

[Author]

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