Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

I should add that the Pharisees got very upset anytime Jesus mentioned such things and so it is no surprise that it upsets people today. Also because of that, Jesus often said such things when asked. (seek and you will find). But he didn't go around saying such things unprovoked because that would have caused a riot everywhere he went. No he said such things to those who asked. You asked and so I answered in a similar fashion and you appear to be reacting in a similar fashion.

[shimmer]

To all,

Further to what I said on the light = love, the dark = hatred, and all that goes with them both,

1st John 2:7
Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

Darkness can not drive out darkness…. only light can do that.

Hate can not drive out hate; only love can do that.

You cant fight fire with fire.

Good is the only thing that will solve evil

Two wrongs don't make a right

Return hatred for hatred and it grows worse and worse.

Return hatred with love, and see how long it lasts.

People often miss the message.

[shimmer]

And further,

Quote…Martin Luther King, Jr:

“I have decided to love. If you are seeking the highest good, I think you can find it through love. And the beautiful thing is that we are moving against wrong when we do it, because John was right, God is love. He who hates does not know God, but he who has love has the key that unlocks the door to the meaning of ultimate reality.”

And again:

“Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction. So when Jesus says “Love your enemies,” he is setting forth a profound and ultimately inescapable admonition. … The chain reaction of evil — hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars — must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.”

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 19 2010,20:41)

T8, Considering your argument using Paul’s words that the head of woman is man and the head of man is Christ is based on a scripture written to those under the new covenant and thus part of the new creation.  I am not in disagreement with you as I am certain the new creation was created through, by, and for Jesus. One simple truth is there is only one divine being and that is God.  The angels are not divine beings though they have the divine nature of righteousness.  Jesus also has the divine nature of righteousness.  The Holy Spirit can be considered to be divine as from what I have learned it is part of God.   Since Jesus had the Spirit with in him you can say that was his divine nature while his human nature was his own.   I do not believe that is what you meant but if so feel free to correct me. Scripture does not say he returned to the glory he had God or even express that idea.  It does say “glorify me”, John 17:5, as in “bestow the honor on me” which certainly does not mean “return”. Your explanation does not remove the contradiction of a child being born or existing before its parent. Please Note that if you are just speaking of the soul as being preexistent then it can remove the contradiction.  You cannot explain it with a spiritual being wearing human flesh as a disguise or a spiritual being transformed into a human being, and thus in either case not actually related to his (?) parents.

Kerwn……..you have presented it right, all who believe Jesus preexisted His berth on earth other then in the plan and will of GOD are not correctly understanding scripture in it true light. God was not perfecting a preexisting being of any Kind he was perfecting the First purely human being to be born into the Kingdom of God from man kind His glory was not a glory he had before his berth on earth but a glory he attained to after his resurrection from the dead. They do not see their teachings separated Jesus from his Human existence and working the Spirit (intellect) of a (SEPARATIST) who ARE ANTICHRISTS rather they realize it or not non the less they are separatists, they have bought into the GREAT LIE spoken of by Paul in 2Ths 2.

Blessed are all who can see through this great Lie these are those chosen by God and have come out of these false teaching of Jesus' preexistences.

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2010,07:59)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,22:50) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2010,20:08) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,19:06) Hi brother T8 sorry to bother you. If Jesus was with the same glory before the foundations of the world is it not ridiculous to say “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name” achieved through obedience and humility? Why can't he be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began and in addition to being humbled in the flesh and obedient, which taught him obedience which gains extra reward? After all do we not have salvation and receive on top of that reward for our obedience and good works? The only time you see contradiction is when you have already made up your mind to the contrary. But if you read it all as it is, then it all fits. I don't see what the problem is, unless you have been swayed by someone's teachings to see problems. So brother T8 you think that is the correct answer for my query and you blame me for not willing to take it? God knows who is correct. Let us leave it Him. Instead of conflicting each other. thanks and peace to you Adam I don't blame anyone for anything. Scripture clearly says that he EXISTED in the FORM of God which some translations say he EXISTED with divine nature. This is before he EXISTED in human nature. And we know that God made all things through him and that it was the Logos that God made all things through and that the Logos was with God and that Jesus is the Logos of God. And in case you thought the Logos was a plan, there are other scriptures that say that God made all things through Christ which also witnesses to him being the unique one of God. And it is not as if this is an isolated case. There are many references to Jesus being with God before the world began and that his origins are from ancient times. Please note that God has no origin, but Jesus origin is not 2000 years ago in a human body. There are too many scriptures that testify to this and to change all of them would be ruthless. Scripture says this and men can decide for themselves whether they accept it or not. It is easy to twist any scripture to say what you want it to say by injecting other things that are not mentioned. It the same with getting vinegar from a sponge. A sponge first needs to be soaked in vinegar in order to squeeze vinegar from a sponge. Jesus said before Abraham I am. He said a lot of things that indicated who he was and where he came from and when.

T8………..Indeed Jesus did preexist with the Nature of the God, problem you are thinking Paul is talking about a Pre-earth existence when in fact Paul was talking about his existence on earth before he was raised up from the dead and went to heaven where hi now is. Paul was refereeing to his earthly existence not any Pre-earth existence, you should be able to read the context of what Paul was talking about to see and understand that. IMO

peace and love………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,22:50)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2010,20:08) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,19:06) Hi brother T8 sorry to bother you. If Jesus was with the same glory before the foundations of the world is it not ridiculous to say “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name” achieved through obedience and humility? Why can't he be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began and in addition to being humbled in the flesh and obedient, which taught him obedience which gains extra reward? After all do we not have salvation and receive on top of that reward for our obedience and good works? The only time you see contradiction is when you have already made up your mind to the contrary. But if you read it all as it is, then it all fits. I don't see what the problem is, unless you have been swayed by someone's teachings to see problems. So brother T8 you think that is the correct answer for my query and you blame me for not willing to take it? God knows who is correct. Let us leave it Him. Instead of conflicting each other. thanks and peace to you Adam

Adam………..Well said brother, It appears the mindset of preexistences forge their own ideas of what they percieve as Jesus preexistences and can't even see that they as well as Trinitarians are both in the same mindset they both are (SEPARATIST) and their work is to make Jesus different from us all and move him to a position other than a purely born human being. They destory not only Jesus' Example as a Human Being to us, but also God's Work in that Man our brother, the first to achieve GOD Goal for all humanity, they (preexistence and trinitarians) are both ANTICHRIST and they push the Spirit of Antichrist which is the spirit of (SEPARATION) that had entered the world along time ago even from the days of the original apostles. “FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY DOES ALREADY ABOUND”. It operates in all Preexistences who are (SEPARATIST), and you are right GOd Knows who is right and those who are right know it also, the do not by into the Great LIE.

Peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………..gene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 20 2010,12:23)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,22:50) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2010,20:08) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,19:06) Hi brother T8 sorry to bother you. If Jesus was with the same glory before the foundations of the world is it not ridiculous to say “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name” achieved through obedience and humility? Why can't he be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began and in addition to being humbled in the flesh and obedient, which taught him obedience which gains extra reward? After all do we not have salvation and receive on top of that reward for our obedience and good works? The only time you see contradiction is when you have already made up your mind to the contrary. But if you read it all as it is, then it all fits. I don't see what the problem is, unless you have been swayed by someone's teachings to see problems. So brother T8 you think that is the correct answer for my query and you blame me for not willing to take it? God knows who is correct. Let us leave it Him. Instead of conflicting each other. thanks and peace to you Adam Adam………..Well said brother,  It appears the mindset of preexistences forge their own ideas of what they percieve as Jesus preexistences and can't even see that they as well as Trinitarians are both in the same mindset they both are (SEPARATIST) and their work is to make Jesus different from us all and move him to a position other than a purely born human being. They destory not only Jesus' Example as a Human Being to us, but also God's Work in that Man our brother, the first to achieve GOD Goal for all humanity, they (preexistence and trinitarians) are both ANTICHRIST and they push the Spirit of Antichrist which is the spirit of (SEPARATION) that had entered the world along time ago even from the days of the original apostles. “FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY DOES ALREADY ABOUND”. It operates in all Preexistences who are (SEPARATIST), and you are right GOd Knows who is right and those who are right know it also, the do not by into the Great LIE. Peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………..gene

Thank you brother Gene for your support. Brothers T8 and Pierre think that I am unbeliever who doesn't know God. At the same time they are forgetting that a trinitarian like WJ also think them also as unbelievers. I only put frank question: how can Jesus be exalted to the glory which already he was alleged to be possessing before the world began if he really achieved one by his humility and obedience to God as per Phil 2:5-11? This is the fate of our religion. What to do brother.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 20 2010,11:57)

And further, Quote…Martin Luther King, Jr: “I have decided to love. If you are seeking the highest good, I think you can find it through love. And the beautiful thing is that we are moving against wrong when we do it, because John was right, God is love. He who hates does not know God, but he who has love has the key that unlocks the door to the meaning of ultimate reality.” And again: “Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction. So when Jesus says “Love your enemies,” he is setting forth a profound and ultimately inescapable admonition. … The chain reaction of evil — hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars — must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.”

Hi Sis Karmarie,
Those are wonderful posts on love of God. Yes we all need them badly. Everyone here is frustrated because of these unending debates on various complicated issues of Christianity. I appreciate you role in encouraging brothers to love one another.

May God bless you
Adam

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,00:16)

Hi Sis Kathy and brother Pierre here is how God created light and darkness; Isa 45: 7 I form the light and create darkness,   I bring prosperity and create disaster;   I, the LORD, do all these things. I don't agree with your idea of God created/procreated son of God when He said let there be light. In fact He created darkness before that as for Gen 1:1. It is only a speculation to claim like that.

Adam,
With what happened on day four, I don't think things are as clear cut as you think:

4 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, to divide between day and night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and for years. 15 And let them be for light in the firmament of the heaven, so as to shine upon the earth, and it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light for regulating the day and the lesser light for regulating the night, the stars also. 17 And God placed them in the firmament of the heaven, so as to shine upon the earth, 18 and to regulate day and night, and to divide between the light and the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 20 2010,11:39)

To all, Further to what I said on the light = love, the dark = hatred, and all that goes with them both, 1st John 2:7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. Darkness can not drive out darkness…. only light can do that. Hate can not drive out hate; only love can do that. You cant fight fire with fire. Good is the only thing that will solve evil Two wrongs don't make a right Return hatred for hatred and it grows worse and worse. Return hatred with love, and see how long it lasts. People often miss the message.

A good post.

[kerwin]

T8,

I wrote:

Quote

Scripture does not say he returned to the glory he had God or even express that idea.  It does say “glorify me”, John 17:5, as in “bestow the honor on me” which certainly does not mean “return”.

You responded:

Quote

Before the world began.

It seems I did not make myself clearly understood.  If I told my mother to give me the present I had with her before I was born then would it mean that I was with her before my birth or that she had prepared a present for me before I was born with the intention of actually given it to me later.

I seem to have trouble making myself understood.    If Jesus has a divine nature then he is a deity.  This introduces a contradiction in scripture as you now have two gods where scripture clearly states there is one.  In order to correct this contradiction the trinity doctrine evolved.  Those who support it argue that human reason cannot understand it.  Can you resolve that contradiction?

Your words seem to support the idea that Jesus is half human and half deity when you state that the Holy Spirit is Jesus’ father and Mary is his mother.   This is not the case as the Holy Spirit is the active force of God which means that God acted on Mary and she Jesus began to form in her body.  The active force, Spirit, was at the original creation and carried out God’s word.  The divine nature is the Holy Spirit in Jesus just as it comes to be in those that believe he is the Anointed.

Your attempt to resolve the contradiction of a child being born before its parent has introduced the contradiction of their being more deities than one.  Even then it fails to actually resolve the initial contradiction as even a deity cannot be born before his/her mother as far as I know.  The point is irrelevant as there is but one deity.

1 Corinthians 11:3 is part of the justification for a command written to the new creations at Corinth.  It was not written to those that had not yet been reborn into Christ and so were part of the old creation.

I cannot argue that human souls did not exist before the creation of the world and they are said by some to exist in the seventh heaven with God.  I suppose it is plausible that the old creation could have been made through one such soul though the account in Genesis does not mention that being the case and I find it doubtful that God used an unborn soul in that way.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 20 2010,18:08)

I seem to have trouble making myself understood. If Jesus has a divine nature then he is a deity. This introduces a contradiction in scripture as you now have two gods where scripture clearly states there is one. In order to correct this contradiction the trinity doctrine evolved. Those who support it argue that human reason cannot understand it. Can you resolve that contradiction?

Having or partaking in divine nature doesn't make you God in the same way that having a spirit doesn't make you the Spirit.

We know that we can share or participate in divine nature ourselves. So how much more the Christ?

And we already know that it is a mystery to some degree as to what we will become, but we know that we will be like him.

Again it is the lack of understanding of identity and nature that makes people come to strange conclusions.

God is the Divine and being divine does not make one the Divine just as being a spirit doesn't make you the Spirit. God is generous. He shares his Spirit and he is the Father of spirits. He also shares his nature.

Any divinity that we partake in is given to us from the Divine just as any goodness that is in us is from God.

The argument that being good makes you God because only God is good is weak and so is partaking in divine nature making us another God. It is easily fixed when you understand that there is one who is the Divine, Good, Spirit. Yet how many share in divine nature? How many spirits are there? How many are good?

You just need to understand that there is one who is the source that is all. And there are many recipients. Even Jesus said “Only God is good”. Yet would you say that Jesus is evil?

[kerwin]

T8,

You wrote:

Quote

Having or partaking in divine nature doesn't make you God in the same way that having a spirit doesn't make you the Spirit.

If I have the nature of a spirit then I am a spirit.  If I have the nature of holiness then I am holy. If I live by, have, the Spirit then I do have its nature of holiness, aka divine nature, spiritual nature.  That is what I was taught about the application of the words involved.

Please explain what you mean.  The example did not work and most of the rest of your explanation seemed to agree with me.  Some was unclear.  

Is your definition of divine nature the same as the nature of a deity? If not what is your definition?

Jesus is evil as to his human nature just as we are.  He overcame that nature by living by the Spirit and so did not sin.  That is why he said only God is good for God cannot even be tempted by evil.

[Proclaimer]

The point is Kerwin, scripture teaches that there is one God and one faith, one baptism and one Spirit.
Yet it also says that God is the father of spirits and that angels are spirits.

So just as there is one God there is one Spirit.
Yet I say to you that just as there is one Divine, there are many who partake in divine nature.

Being called theos or partaking in divine nature is no contradiction to there being one God of all just as there is one Spirit and yet there are many spirits that are of the Father including spirit angels.

[Proclaimer]

The difference is that the Father is the source of all spirit and divinity.
But he shares these with his sons.

[kerwin]

T8.

Are you stating that God shares being a deity with all his children?

[terraricca]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 20 2010,20:29)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 20 2010,12:23) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,22:50) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2010,20:08) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,19:06) Hi brother T8 sorry to bother you. If Jesus was with the same glory before the foundations of the world is it not ridiculous to say “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name” achieved through obedience and humility? Why can't he be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began and in addition to being humbled in the flesh and obedient, which taught him obedience which gains extra reward? After all do we not have salvation and receive on top of that reward for our obedience and good works? The only time you see contradiction is when you have already made up your mind to the contrary. But if you read it all as it is, then it all fits. I don't see what the problem is, unless you have been swayed by someone's teachings to see problems. So brother T8 you think that is the correct answer for my query and you blame me for not willing to take it? God knows who is correct. Let us leave it Him. Instead of conflicting each other. thanks and peace to you Adam Adam………..Well said brother,  It appears the mindset of preexistences forge their own ideas of what they percieve as Jesus preexistences and can't even see that they as well as Trinitarians are both in the same mindset they both are (SEPARATIST) and their work is to make Jesus different from us all and move him to a position other than a purely born human being. They destory not only Jesus' Example as a Human Being to us, but also God's Work in that Man our brother, the first to achieve GOD Goal for all humanity, they (preexistence and trinitarians) are both ANTICHRIST and they push the Spirit of Antichrist which is the spirit of (SEPARATION) that had entered the world along time ago even from the days of the original apostles. “FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY DOES ALREADY ABOUND”. It operates in all Preexistences who are (SEPARATIST), and you are right GOd Knows who is right and those who are right know it also, the do not by into the Great LIE. Peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………..gene Thank you brother Gene for your support. Brothers T8 and Pierre think that I am unbeliever who doesn't know God. At the same time they are forgetting that a trinitarian like WJ also think them also as unbelievers. I only put frank question: how can Jesus be exalted to the glory which already he was alleged to be possessing before the world began if he really achieved one by his humility and obedience to God as per Phil 2:5-11? This is the fate of our religion. What to do brother. Thanks and peace to you Adam

Adam

do you think that the pharisees and the doctors of the law did not knew God at the time Christ spook to them???

you figure this one out ,

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,03:29)

T8, You wrote: Quote Having or partaking in divine nature doesn't make you God in the same way that having a spirit doesn't make you the Spirit. If I have the nature of a spirit then I am a spirit.  If I have the nature of holiness then I am holy. If I live by, have, the Spirit then I do have its nature of holiness, aka divine nature, spiritual nature.  That is what I was taught about the application of the words involved. Please explain what you mean.  The example did not work and most of the rest of your explanation seemed to agree with me.  Some was unclear.   Is your definition of divine nature the same as the nature of a deity? If not what is your definition? Jesus is evil as to his human nature just as we are.  He overcame that nature by living by the Spirit and so did not sin.  That is why he said only God is good for God cannot even be tempted by evil.

kerwin

you have learn many of men's opinions and still hold on to it tied,
you say;;

If I live by, have, the Spirit then I do have its nature of holiness, aka divine nature, spiritual nature. That is what I was taught about the application of the words involved.
ONE QUESTION IF SOME ONE WOULD LIVE BY THAT SPIRIT BEING AS A MAN WOULD HE BE IN GODS NATURE???KERWIN REALLY WERE IS THAT WRITTEN???

you say;;
Jesus is evil as to his human nature just as we are
—————————————————
those are not bible teachings,nor Jesus thoughts or is disciples,COULD YOU SHOW SCRIPTURES ?

Pierre

[JustAskin]

Kerwin,
Maybe it's just a slip but 'Jesus is evil'

No, Kerwin. Jesus, as man, had the POTENTIAL to do Evil, to BE Sinful…but he resisted.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 20 2010,13:29)

I only put frank question: how can Jesus be exalted to the glory which already he was alleged to be possessing before the world began if he really achieved one by his humility and obedience to God as per Phil 2:5-11?

Hi Adam,

Did you really intend to answer my question about Jesus saying he came down from heaven by quoting some dude named Marconi and info on Gnostics?  

Here, let me DIRECTLY answer YOUR point, and then maybe you willl DIRECTLY answer mine.

Jesus asked God to glorify him with the glory he had in His presence before the world was created.  First, Jesus says I HAD GLORY IN YOUR PRESENCE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS CREATED, Adam.  

Gene says what Jesus really meant was “the glory the thought of me in your head had”.  Does that sound like a logical understanding of the words “I HAD”?

Kerwin says if his mother made him a gift before he was born, then he could speak about the gift “HE HAD” before he was born.  I could see him saying, “Where is the gift you made for me BEFORE I was born?”, but I doubt anyone in that situation would say “the gift I HAD before I was born”.  A person is not an “I” until they exist as a person, so therefore a person cannot possibly “HAVE” a possession until they exist as a person.

Do you not see the illogical and far reaching things people must come up with just to make a clearly spoken sentence by Jesus not mean what it very clearly says?  Why the mystery and the secret hidden meanings?  Why can't it just clearly mean what it clearly says?

As far as your point, Jesus asked to be given the SAME glory he already had.  But instead of that, God decided to give him even more glory and an even better name:

Rev 3:12 NIV
and I will also write on them my new name.

God exalted His Son to an even higher position and glory after he had been made perfect through suffering. He became “as much superior to the angels as his [new] name is superior to theirs”.  Although the angels were created through them, they were apparently never required to bow down before anyone but their God.  But now, because of Jesus' even more glorious position, they will also bow to him, as will we all.

So it's not so “ridiculous” after all.  Jesus asked for the same glory, God gave him even more.

Now, your turn Adam.

John 6 NIV
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

1.  Jesus CLEARLY said he “came down from heaven”.
2.  The Jews CLEARLY understood what he said and meant.
3.  That shows there was no “mystery” or “secret hidden meaning” in what he said.

Adam, do you believe your Lord and King when he says he “came down from heaven”?  I do.

peace and love,
mike

[Author]

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