Preexistence

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2010,11:43)

Hi Adam, I thought you might be interested in what Tertullian said about the light on day one: Then, therefore, does the Word also Himself assume His own form and glorious garb, His own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, “Let there be light.” This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when He proceeds forth from God—formed by Him first to devise and think out all things under the name of Wisdom—“The Lord created or formed me as the beginning of His ways;” then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect—“When He prepared the heaven, I was present with Him.” Thus does He make Him equal to Him: for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things; and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart—even as the Father Himself testifies: “My heart,” says He, “hath emitted my most excellent Word.” The Father took pleasure evermore in Him, who equally rejoiced with a reciprocal gladness in the Father’s presence:  “Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten Thee;” even before the morning star did I beget Thee. The Son likewise acknowledges the Father, speaking in His own person, under the name of Wisdom: “The Lord formed Me as the beginning of His ways, with a view to His own works; before all the hills did He beget Me.” http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.ix.vii.html Are you familiar with Tertullian?

Hi Sis Kathy,
Wonderful post it is to support your revelations on light. I wonder this sort of imaginations on birth of son of God is not a new thing but very old even Tertullian could frame it. But the problem here is Gen 1 talks about our world only not about creation of angels or heavenly bodies. If N.T talks about only this creation your assumption may be correct but it can not prove that the son of God as first creation/procreation as you support. There were other sons of God already existing as per Job when God created this world.

And also Tertullian quoted Prov 8 to support God forming son of God. I don't agree with that logic since Hebrew Bible talks about female wisdom “Sofia” instead of male son. It is only a poetical expression of wisdom and other attribute of God.

Please see the argument of Sis Shimmer light is also one of the attributes of God as N.T quotes “God is light” but it can not be other way round as “light is God”. Gen 1 talks about  impersonal light rather natural light. Please also see the argument of brother Pierre; he says if God is already light why at all he should create one like that. So it is different from what we call God. I believe it is natural light but not any formation of a being as Tertullian and others assume here as God created every other earthly things in Gen 1.

These are my thoughts and arguments. I leave it to you.

Peace and love to you
Adam

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2010,20:18)

t8 and Pierre and Shimmer, I think that God certainly is/was always Light (spiritual not physical).  Think of the sun lit up but its rays not turned on yet.  “Let there be light” turned on the rays (the Son) from the sun (the Father) who was always lit up just had nothing to emit rays to till something was created.  When it finally got time to create He said “let there be light” and He begot the rays (the Light of/from Light-the Son).

Kathi

speculation,speculation,and speculation,

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 19 2010,20:11)

Your all wrong, I can prove it with scripture which I will later…… the light is love, the dark is hate. Men prefered to live in the dark (hate) Hatred brings everything else with it, envy, jealousy, lies, fighting, murder, war, destruction…………. etc God is love, The light which was in the beginning.  The dark has never overcome it.

shimmer

no you cannot, because God created light, but in stead people chose to go into darkness (so hiding from God because of there wickedness)

God never created wickedness of any kind.

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 18 2010,23:02)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2010,11:43) Hi Adam, I thought you might be interested in what Tertullian said about the light on day one: Then, therefore, does the Word also Himself assume His own form and glorious garb, His own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, “Let there be light.” This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when He proceeds forth from God—formed by Him first to devise and think out all things under the name of Wisdom—“The Lord created or formed me as the beginning of His ways;” then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect—“When He prepared the heaven, I was present with Him.” Thus does He make Him equal to Him: for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things; and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart—even as the Father Himself testifies: “My heart,” says He, “hath emitted my most excellent Word.” The Father took pleasure evermore in Him, who equally rejoiced with a reciprocal gladness in the Father’s presence:  “Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten Thee;” even before the morning star did I beget Thee. The Son likewise acknowledges the Father, speaking in His own person, under the name of Wisdom: “The Lord formed Me as the beginning of His ways, with a view to His own works; before all the hills did He beget Me.” http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.ix.vii.html Are you familiar with Tertullian? Hi Sis Kathy, Wonderful post it is to support your revelations on light. I wonder this sort of imaginations on birth of son of God is not a new thing but very old even Tertullian could frame it. But the problem here is Gen 1 talks about the our world only not about creation of angels or heavenly bodies. If N.T talks about only this creation your assumption may be correct but it can not prove that the son of God as first creation/procreation as you support. There were other sons of God already existing as per Job when God created this world. And also Tertullian quoted Prov 8 to support God forming son of God. I don't agree with that logic since Hebrew Bible talks about female wisdom “Sofia” instead of male son. It is only a poetical expression of wisdom and other attribute of God. Please see the argument of Sis Shimmer light is also one of the attributes of God as N.T quotes “God is light” but it can not be other way round as “light is God”. Gen 1 talks about  impersonal light rather natural light. Please also see the argument of brother Pierre; he says if God is already light why at all he should create one like that. So it is different from what we call God. I believe it is natural light but not any formation of a being as Tertullian and others assume here as God created every other earthly things in Gen 1. These are my thoughts and arguments. I leave it to you. Peace and love to you Adam

Hi Adam,
I wouldn't decide that wisdom is not the Son based on the gender of a noun.  Did you know God is love?  Well love is feminine…did you realize that?  Is God female…He is always spoken about with male pronouns.  You are getting thrown off by genders of nouns in Hebrew.  Have you researched that at all?  The Hebrew word's gender for the nouns isn't determining the gender of who they refer to.

Also, if light on day one is physical as well as light on day four, then why did it have to be separated again from darkness?  I think light on day one is spiritual and light on day four is physical and on day four is when the planets and stars are created.

Also, you said the angels were already there by day one but I suppose you get that because of the verse in Job when the sons of God rejoiced over the laying of the foundation of the earth.  Well, the foundation wasn't laid, imo, until day three when the seas were separated from the dry land and not allowed to go any further.  You can see that in Prov. 8 when the foundations were being measured. see here:

Prov 8:28-30
28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
NASU

So you see, the angels didn't need to be there before day one.  They probably were created during day one though.

Bless you!

[shimmer]

Terrarica etc,

No, you see, you have to see things differently, no ammout of bookwork will show you this.

The dark is the hate and the “coldness” –by the way see how theres two different meanings for the word coldness ? ..see that ? — darkness is what men became or what men prefered…….. so the light came into the world but the world knew it not, because the world preferred darkness, the world preffered the ways of men which is to hate — the word hate has alot of different meanings to it. Both hate and love are either deep or shallow or somewhere in between, all things come from emotions, lack of or too many, either good or bad.

I will find the verses later.

[terraricca]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 19 2010,22:52)

Terrarica etc, No, you see, you have to see things differently, no ammout of bookwork will show you this. The dark is the hate and the “coldness” –by the way see how theres two different meanings for the word coldness ? ..see that ? — darkness is what men became or what men prefered…….. so the light came into the world but the world knew it not, because the world preferred darkness, the world preffered the ways of men which is to hate — the word hate has alot of different meanings to it. Both hate and love are either deep or shallow or somewhere in between, all things come from emotions, lack of or too many, either good or bad. I will find the verses later.

shimmer

did read what i say???

shimmer

no you cannot, because God created light, but in stead people chose to go into darkness (so hiding from God because of there wickedness)

God never created wickedness of any kind.

Pierre

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Kathy and brother Pierre here is how God created light and darkness;
Isa 45:
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

I don't agree with your idea of God created/procreated son of God when He said let there be light. In fact He created darkness before that as for Gen 1:1. It is only a speculation to claim like that.

[Ed J]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 18 2010,17:43)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 18 2010,17:13) Hi T8, Let me ask you this… Do you think we preexisted as well? God bless Ed J It is possible, but I see no teaching in scripture to support it.

HI T8,

Hoe about this one…

Jer.1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and
before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,
and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Or this one…

2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Or this one…

Jude:1:12 …clouds they are without water, carried about of winds;
trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Proclaimer]

Why is this scripture not good enough?

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It talks about his attitude and how we should be humble too.
How humble was Christ? I would say much more than us.
He was divine, but never raised himself up in pride.
He made himself nothing by being a servant and as a human.
As a man, he died for us.
God exalted him up.

And we know that he is in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

So how do the deniers pull Philippians 2:5-11 apart?
Let me guess. He wasn't divine, but was a memory in the Divine or something?

[gollamudi]

Hi brother T8 sorry to bother you. If Jesus was with the same glory before the foundations of the world is it not ridiculous to say “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name” achieved through obedience and humility?

[gollamudi]

For brother Mike on john 6 which supports full blown preexistence of Jesus. Here is another quote from Tertullian:

Tertullian says, “According to the gospel of Marcion, in the fifteenth year of Tiberius,
Christ Jesus deigned to emanate from heaven, a salutary spirit.” But, he also says,
according to this “Great Anti-Christian,” the Christ was a phantom, who appeared
suddenly at the synagogue of Capernaum in the likeness of a full-grown man for the
purpose of protesting against the law and the prophets! But it is certain that the Lord
or Christ of Marcion is entirely non-historical. He has no genealogy or Jewish line of
descent; no earthly mother, no father no mundane birthplace or human birth.

I think this Marcion's Jesus is more powerful than John's because there is no incarnation required here. Jesus directly comes down from heaven as John 6 claims as full grown up man.

Most of the Christian scriptures are based on such redaction on Gnosticism. They wanted to prove that Jesus was not Phantom but real human being with material body. I wonder how this differs with that of Gnostic Jesus as their Jesus was also not real human but God/god in disguise of human.

Please think over
Adam

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,19:06)

Hi brother T8 sorry to bother you. If Jesus was with the same glory before the foundations of the world is it not ridiculous to say “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name” achieved through obedience and humility?

Why can't he be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began and in addition to being humbled in the flesh and obedient, which taught him obedience which gains extra reward? After all do we not have salvation and receive on top of that reward for our obedience and good works?

The only time you see contradiction is when you have already made up your mind to the contrary. But if you read it all as it is, then it all fits. I don't see what the problem is, unless you have been swayed by someone's teachings to see problems.

[kerwin]

T8,

Considering your argument using Paul’s words that the head of woman is man and the head of man is Christ is based on a scripture written to those under the new covenant and thus part of the new creation. I am not in disagreement with you as I am certain the new creation was created through, by, and for Jesus.

One simple truth is there is only one divine being and that is God. The angels are not divine beings though they have the divine nature of righteousness. Jesus also has the divine nature of righteousness. The Holy Spirit can be considered to be divine as from what I have learned it is part of God.

Since Jesus had the Spirit with in him you can say that was his divine nature while his human nature was his own. I do not believe that is what you meant but if so feel free to correct me.

Scripture does not say he returned to the glory he had God or even express that idea. It does say “glorify me”, John 17:5, as in “bestow the honor on me” which certainly does not mean “return”.

Your explanation does not remove the contradiction of a child being born or existing before its parent.

Please Note that if you are just speaking of the soul as being preexistent then it can remove the contradiction. You cannot explain it with a spiritual being wearing human flesh as a disguise or a spiritual being transformed into a human being, and thus in either case not actually related to his (?) parents.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 19 2010,20:41)

Scripture does not say he returned to the glory he had God or even express that idea. It does say “glorify me”, John 17:5, as in “bestow the honor on me” which certainly does not mean “return”.

Before the world began.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 19 2010,20:41)

Your explanation does not remove the contradiction of a child being born or existing before its parent.

It does.

Because Jesus existed in the form of God/divine nature.
He then emptied himself and existed in human nature.

The divine nature was before human nature.

He is a child in human nature and he had a history in divine nature.

The only contradiction is in your own doctrine. Because you do not believe that he existed in the form of God/with divine nature, it is a contradiction because you only see flesh nature.

But it is not a contradiction to a person who believes that Jesus existed in the form of God as it is written.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 19 2010,20:41)

Considering your argument using Paul’s words that the head of woman is man and the head of man is Christ is based on a scripture written to those under the new covenant and thus part of the new creation. I am not in disagreement with you as I am certain the new creation was created through, by, and for Jesus.

The man is the head of the woman under the old creation (now). In the new creation, there is no male or female. We will become like the angels. There is also no male or female in Christ.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 19 2010,20:41)

Please Note that if you are just speaking of the soul as being preexistent then it can remove the contradiction. You cannot explain it with a spiritual being wearing human flesh as a disguise or a spiritual being transformed into a human being, and thus in either case not actually related to his (?) parents.

Jesus Father was God (the Spirit). His mother was from Earth.
Hence he has a human lineage and a divine lineage.

He was before and he was after.

He was with God in the beginning and God made all things through him and for him. That is all things.

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2010,20:08)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,19:06) Hi brother T8 sorry to bother you. If Jesus was with the same glory before the foundations of the world is it not ridiculous to say “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name” achieved through obedience and humility? Why can't he be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began and in addition to being humbled in the flesh and obedient, which taught him obedience which gains extra reward? After all do we not have salvation and receive on top of that reward for our obedience and good works? The only time you see contradiction is when you have already made up your mind to the contrary. But if you read it all as it is, then it all fits. I don't see what the problem is, unless you have been swayed by someone's teachings to see problems.

So brother T8 you think that is the correct answer for my query and you blame me for not willing to take it?
God knows who is correct. Let us leave it Him. Instead of conflicting each other.

thanks and peace to you
Adam

[terraricca]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 20 2010,05:50)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2010,20:08) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,19:06) Hi brother T8 sorry to bother you. If Jesus was with the same glory before the foundations of the world is it not ridiculous to say “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name” achieved through obedience and humility? Why can't he be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began and in addition to being humbled in the flesh and obedient, which taught him obedience which gains extra reward? After all do we not have salvation and receive on top of that reward for our obedience and good works? The only time you see contradiction is when you have already made up your mind to the contrary. But if you read it all as it is, then it all fits. I don't see what the problem is, unless you have been swayed by someone's teachings to see problems. So brother T8 you think that is the correct answer for my query and you blame me for not willing to take it? God knows who is correct. Let us leave it Him. Instead of conflicting each other. thanks and peace to you Adam

Adam

you see this can not be done,the word of God is a living word,and it keep someone to go always forward and never still
or backward,you have to make the truth come out while the spirit is feeding you the knowledge,because one truth builds upon the other and so on,until the light in your hearth is so bright that you can see Christ in his glory,

it is our decision to go forward or to stop and so go backwards.

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,22:50)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2010,20:08) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 19 2010,19:06) Hi brother T8 sorry to bother you. If Jesus was with the same glory before the foundations of the world is it not ridiculous to say “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name” achieved through obedience and humility? Why can't he be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began and in addition to being humbled in the flesh and obedient, which taught him obedience which gains extra reward? After all do we not have salvation and receive on top of that reward for our obedience and good works? The only time you see contradiction is when you have already made up your mind to the contrary. But if you read it all as it is, then it all fits. I don't see what the problem is, unless you have been swayed by someone's teachings to see problems. So brother T8 you think that is the correct answer for my query and you blame me for not willing to take it? God knows who is correct. Let us leave it Him. Instead of conflicting each other. thanks and peace to you Adam

I don't blame anyone for anything.

Scripture clearly says that he EXISTED in the FORM of God which some translations say he EXISTED with divine nature. This is before he EXISTED in human nature. And we know that God made all things through him and that it was the Logos that God made all things through and that the Logos was with God and that Jesus is the Logos of God. And in case you thought the Logos was a plan, there are other scriptures that say that God made all things through Christ which also witnesses to him being the unique one of God.

And it is not as if this is an isolated case. There are many references to Jesus being with God before the world began and that his origins are from ancient times. Please note that God has no origin, but Jesus origin is not 2000 years ago in a human body. There are too many scriptures that testify to this and to change all of them would be ruthless.

Scripture says this and men can decide for themselves whether they accept it or not. It is easy to twist any scripture to say what you want it to say by injecting other things that are not mentioned. It the same with getting vinegar from a sponge. A sponge first needs to be soaked in vinegar in order to squeeze vinegar from a sponge.

Jesus said before Abraham I am. He said a lot of things that indicated who he was and where he came from and when.

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