Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 17 2010,17:34)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 17 2010,15:39) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 17 2010,09:32) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,14:33) Hi Sis Irene and brothers Gene & Kerwin, I appreciate your replies for my post on contradictions in the Bible. As you too noticed any doctrine can be supported by the written word of the Bible. There may be certain imbalance in finding the scriptures to suit your own ideas but no one can be right when compared to other's views. I found it from the unending debates here on Heavennet especially on Trinity, Preexistence, Free Will etc. Most of us claim to be led by spirit of God if so why others are not accepting our views? As per Jewish expectation when Messiah comes he will convince all of them with God's word and infact they will be taught by God. If the Messiah had already come why not this happening on this earth? Why havoc among brothern? Why there is no peace on earth? These are the questions running in my mind. I hope you will notice them too. Peace and love Adam Adam!  You and others who do nit believe in over 30 Scriptures that tell me that the preexisting of Jesus and the trinity can be either proven right or wrong…Nobody up to date have proven the preexisting wrong…..And except for one Scripture against several other I can prove the trinity wrong…..Can you prove the preexisting wrong? Let me hear it…Peace Irene Hi Sis Irene, Thanks for your response to my post above. In fact I appreciate your patience in quoting this set of scriptures which support pre-existence of Jesus. I accept now that N.T talk  about certain degree of Jesus' pre-existence. At the same time it also supports his beginnings from his birth through his mother. I am neutral here I don't support any doctrine here whether trinitarian, pre-existence or unitarianism. I now see there is confusion in our source that is our Bible. But you people don't agree with me since you all believe verbal inspiration of scriptures which I doubt now. Any how my replies to brother Mike will reflect my beliefs. Thanks and love to you Adam Adam, then you are not a Christian, if you deny the Bible being the words of God.  The Bible is our basis of Faith.  We can go there and see what is right and what is wrong.  The doctrine of the trinity is wrong.  To say also that all are doctrines is wrong.  The preexisting of Jesus is plainly written in the Bible.  While the trinity, except for one Scripture, you cannot prove in  the Bible. That makes a big difference to me….So you also don't believe that Christ has come.  He will come again and set all straight.  The first time He came nobody excepted Him.  Only a few, like the Apostles.  Most that did in the first three centuries died a bloody and cruel dead, except for John who was exiled to the Island of Petmus, where He wrote Revelation……You are not a Christian you are a Jew at heart.  So what are you doing here??? To give us a hard time?  Putting up articles like you just did??  It was also God's plan for Jesus to come and die for us, so we can live.  And you want to tell God, what He did or not do?? It is all written in the Bible.  You rather believe men?   Sorry my friend, you are totally wrong….. Mat 15:9   But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.   Peace Irene

Irene…………There you go again attacking a brother and accusing him of all kind of things , but totally unable to address any of his explanations and questions. You and Pierre are both alike. If people don't agree with you you start your stupid personal attacks , calling them not Christian and etc. You seem unable to engage in serious dialog , but just like a ignorant person try to force you own false conceptions on others. If anyone here has the appearance of not being a Christian it is not Adam , but you. Adam has addressed you kindly and with consideration of your feeling and expressed his view and then you come back accusing him of all kinds of things, this reflects your own nature and that is hardly the nature of Christ or GOD. If anyone here desires a tiles here it is you. IMO

gene

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,17:23)

Hi brother Mike, If Christianity is true monotheism I don't think John meant 'word' was separate person from God. If it so he could have meant two Godly beings existed from the beginning. Adam

Hi Adam,

Of course “The Word” is not a separate person from God!
This is a religiously perpetrated fallacy! God's word is God! (John 1:1)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 17 2010,09:25)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,16:45) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 15 2010,09:02) Gene!  I don't believe in the trinity and I don't believe like WJ or any organized Church either.  They believe that Jesus always existed, I don't.  There is a big difference…. Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.   Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.   Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.   Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.   It is this Scripture that I believe that John 1:1 is what became Jesus, in verse 14 Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.   Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.   This also says in the beginning, the beginning of the creation of God….Just like Rev. 3:14 If you don't want to believe this, that is up to you, I am not sinning by believing Jesus was the firstborn of all  creation…. That's it…..Irene 44 and counting Ed, I find it amazing, if I posted all those Scriptures, like you said I did, that then (1)you and others still ignore them…..And why?  What I wrote in my last post is not all of those Scriptures that prove the preexisting of Jesus either….all together there are over 30 Scriptures that are in the debate tread of the preexisting of Jesus. I also find it interesting that Mike and myself are being criticized by those that don't believe in those Scriptures and ignoring them… And that is just OK with me…..(2)I will continue doing so, until the cows come home or until some of you stop ignoring them.  (3)And that you and others except them or    at least tell me why they are not what they say … Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

1) We ignore the 'spin' you put on them; ignoring scripture is NOT a thing we do!

2) Are you telling us you are going to Post that same post another 44 times?

3) I ahave told you many times what they really mean,
    but you don't seem to be interested.
    Do you want me to explain them to you again?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2010,13:04)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,19:23) Please see how our brother Mike challenges people on this pre-existece as if he alone is true. That's a cop-out Adam.  All I, Irene and Pierre and t8 do is post scripture after scripture.  If you don't believe the scriptures, then may God help you.  And if you are willing, like Gene, to say John 17:5 refers to the glory the “thought of Jesus in God's head” had, then may God grant you more common sense. Don't take it out on me because the scriptures teach a truth that makes you feel less able to accomplish what Jesus did. I'm not saying “I alone am true.”  I'm saying “Scripture alone is true” – whether or not it fits into your own “wishes”. mike

Mike…………What you do is quote scripture that can be taken many ways you force the text to meet your dogmas, while all the time ignoring scripture that contradict those points, and yet you say we need common sense when in fact you and all preexistences seem unable to put (ALL) Scripture together to draw a proper and true conclusion.

Just some of your forced text are , Jesus is the Root and offspring of David , as having a double meaning when in fact it is stated as one and the same thing a which Jesus showing His linage as a human being and (FROM) the (root and offspring)of David root and offspring are both describing the same thing, but you separate them to mean two desperate things.

This is not only done here but in all of your Preexistences conclusions , Like the Before Abraham thing meaning He was saying He existed as a Being , when in fact he was showing His importance and Position as the context would show you, if you would not force the text to meet you preconceived dogmas.

Your preconceived ideologies are forcing you to drive the text to meet you ideas and anyone can do that, But while you do it you must ignore all the many many other text that show the opposite. But not taking into consideration those other scriptures you only add to you blindness IMO.

I tried to get you to see what the overall concepts of preexistences does , it causes a Separation between Jesus and Us which is against the whole plan and will of GOD in Humanity. It denies not only the work of Jesus as a human being but also the work of GOD in HIM, preexistence completely distorts the very work of GOD in Humanity. It is most definitely a Antichrist teaching. Commonsense should show you that , so i would not accuse others of not using commonsense especially since you seem not too.

peace and love………………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 17 2010,23:16)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 17 2010,09:25) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,16:45) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 15 2010,09:02) Gene!  I don't believe in the trinity and I don't believe like WJ or any organized Church either.  They believe that Jesus always existed, I don't.  There is a big difference…. Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.   Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.   Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.   Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.   It is this Scripture that I believe that John 1:1 is what became Jesus, in verse 14 Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.   Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.   This also says in the beginning, the beginning of the creation of God….Just like Rev. 3:14 If you don't want to believe this, that is up to you, I am not sinning by believing Jesus was the firstborn of all  creation…. That's it…..Irene 44 and counting Ed, I find it amazing, if I posted all those Scriptures, like you said I did, that then (1)you and others still ignore them…..And why?  What I wrote in my last post is not all of those Scriptures that prove the preexisting of Jesus either….all together there are over 30 Scriptures that are in the debate tread of the preexisting of Jesus. I also find it interesting that Mike and myself are being criticized by those that don't believe in those Scriptures and ignoring them… And that is just OK with me…..(2)I will continue doing so, until the cows come home or until some of you stop ignoring them.  (3)And that you and others except them or    at least tell me why they are not what they say … Peace Irene Hi Irene, 1) We ignore the 'spin' you put on them; ignoring scripture is NOT a thing we do! 2) Are you telling us you are going to Post that same post another 44 times? 3) I ahave told you many times what they really mean,     but you don't seem to be interested.     Do you want me to explain them to you again? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ………..It is useless brother.

peace and love……………………………..gene

[Baker]

Ed, everything to you is God's Holy Spirit and are you going to put that up another how many times?
You and others seem to not want to believe in Scriptures, and want to do your own thing… If I will put them up again, you or any one else is not going to stop me, I have that right as well as you have….and I am glad there is no one to stop me….So do you then believe that Jesus preexisted? Since you said that you don't ignore Scriptures, or do you interpret Scriptures the way you want them to say??? That is not the same, my friend….Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,14:33)

Hi Sis Irene and brothers Gene & Kerwin, I appreciate your replies for my post on contradictions in the Bible. As you too noticed any doctrine can be supported by the written word of the Bible. There may be certain imbalance in finding the scriptures to suit your own ideas but no one can be right when compared to other's views. I found it from the unending debates here on Heavennet especially on Trinity, Preexistence, Free Will etc. Most of us claim to be led by spirit of God if so why others are not accepting our views? As per Jewish expectation when Messiah comes he will convince all of them with God's word and infact they will be taught by God. If the Messiah had already come why not this happening on this earth? Why havoc among brothern? Why there is no peace on earth? These are the questions running in my mind. I hope you will notice them too. Peace and love Adam

Gene, I found it and this is the post I responded to……Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,23:31)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2010,07:15) Hi Adam, It has been awhile since we talked.  I feel really tired at the moment but I did see that you wrote this about what I believe is possible and I just wanted to clarify something about that. you said: Quote 2.If Jesus is the light then God created light first in the beginning thereby Jesus is the first creation of God as our sister LightenUp(Kathy) often claims here. Is that you mean? I do not think that Jesus is the first creation of God.  I don't consider Jesus as being created before the ages but begotten after a kind who was God.  God beget the begotten God.  Jesus is the firstBORN and the first to be born had to come from birth, not creation.  I do still think that it was possible for Jesus to be begotten when God said “Let there be light.” Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that.   I hope for you to find the peace you long for, Kathi Hi Sis Kathy, Greetings to you. Yea that's a really long span of time since I spoke to you. I am sorry for quoting you without your consent. I appreciate your love and peace towards me. I like your way of telling that Jesus was begotten by God (asexually) but was not created as many non-trinitarians claim here. 'Let there be light' that might be the point of Jesus birth as you claim. I always have doubt on this whether darkness was born or created by God first since Gen 1:1 say that there was already darkness before God spoke anything. Any how I leave it you. Nice to see you continue on Heavennet. What about Mandy? Hope things are OK on your side. Much love and peace to you Adam

Hi Adam,
You are welcome! I appreciate your searching heart and I am glad to see that you have come away from the unitarian position. Sometime the Lord may lead us again into deep discussion and I will look forward to that if it comes.

Our friend Mandy has found more active things to do I'm sure and from what she last wrote, is attending a Catholic church but doesn't buy all they teach. I think she needed a rest from all the confusion here. May the Lord give you both and us all His perfect peace from the Prince of Peace-Jesus Christ.

One thing that I have to say about darkness, darkness is only the absence of light and not a created thing. Think about your shadow on a sunny day. Your shadow is not something created but a result of you standing in the path of the light source. I hope that helps

God bless your search!
Kathi

[Baker]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 04 2010,13:43)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 30 2010,07:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 29 2010,17:30) Hello every one! I thought I would visit my favorite thread to see if there were any new revelations on the subject. I hope every one is well and happy.  As for me, I've taken on a few different jobs and am currently writing a book for Arcadia Publishing Co (their Images of America series.) I've had the opportunity to visit various churches/faiths and they have all been glorious in their own way.  I've learn to appreciate all faiths.  I confess that I find the Catholic church to be the most fascinating.  It's also the most complex.  Still, I do not buy all the Mother sells for a dollar…but it sure is interesting. My love to you all.  Press on! Mandy Well Hello Mandy!  Good to hear from you….So you been in the Catholic Church and find it interesting/ Wow, I sure hope you would not join them.  You remember that we were Catholics until Georg was 46 and I was 45.  The Mass is the abomination speaking of in the Bible.  The Mass is a sacrifice for sin.  Christ died once for all times and not just then.  And then there is Maria and the Rosary.  Repeating the Our Father over and over again.  I back then started a Woman Organization and they also believe that Gay's should be allowed to be Catholics.  Only one time right after we left did we go to one Church and to me it was eerie, very eerie and I will never again go there…..Also the way they worship the Pope, He has on His Teairra in Latin that add up to 666.  The rest you can see yourself…..Sorry to give yous such bad taste about them, but I needed to do so……. Wish you all the best and congratulation on your Book.  Georg too has written one……Are you stricken around or are you just visiting?   It's been interesting around here.  Nick left, but He is also on Face Book and He is doing great….Having a good time and rest.  We have two new Moderators.  i know one is Mikebol64 hope I spelled that right. I just call Him Mike and His theology line up with mine….Peace to you Irene Sis, Good to hear from you, too.  No worries – I haven't run off and joined the Catholic Church.     I doubt that I will ever join a church again.  It's hard for me to subscribe to any one way of thinking anymore….there are so many theories to choose from.  Just take a look at our board, here. So Nick finally gave up on us, huh?  Well, God bless him.  He did put in the hours…  To his credit, he encouraged me when I was down and I do believe the man prayed for me.  I wish him well.  And I wish the new Mods well. I probably won't be back for a while again…just passing through. Love to you and Georg and all the other Heavenneter's from back when… Love, Mandy

Kathi! This is the last post that Mandy made. I was concerned that She might join the Catholic Church and She said no…..
I don't know how you got the information that She did….Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 18 2010,01:19)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,14:33) Hi Sis Irene and brothers Gene & Kerwin, I appreciate your replies for my post on contradictions in the Bible. As you too noticed any doctrine can be supported by the written word of the Bible. There may be certain imbalance in finding the scriptures to suit your own ideas but no one can be right when compared to other's views. I found it from the unending debates here on Heavennet especially on Trinity, Preexistence, Free Will etc. Most of us claim to be led by spirit of God if so why others are not accepting our views? As per Jewish expectation when Messiah comes he will convince all of them with God's word and infact they will be taught by God. If the Messiah had already come why not this happening on this earth? Why havoc among brothern? Why there is no peace on earth? These are the questions running in my mind. I hope you will notice them too. Peace and love Adam Gene, I found it and this is the post I responded to……Irene

Adam, I want to make sure what exactly you were saying here. If I misunderstood you, then I am sorry. Otherwise my post stands at it is……Since you posted in your next post, that you now believe somewhat of Jesus preexisting. So I thought about it, did you change your mind because of all the Scriptures that we showed you? I am happy about that…..Peace Irene

[Lightenup]

Irene,
I never said that Mandy joined a Catholic church. I got the impression that she had been attending occasionally from her interest and I think her husband is Catholic. That's all. Who knows.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2010,17:44)

The alternative solution is that Jesus travelled back in time and thus existed before his mother. That works if you do not believe he created the world since such a belief introduces a paradox which is what we are attempting to move in order that scripture does not contradict itself.

He is the root and branch of David.

He was before and he was after.

That fits with him existing with divine nature and emptying himself and existing in human nature.

Take it at face value and there are no contradictions.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2010,17:45)

Mike Boll, As to Matthew 22:44-46, I assure you Jesus is not just king of the Jews but rather he is King of everything in Heaven and on Earth.  The Jewish authorities, for the most part, and some of the people when prompted to, rejected him as king by putting him to death.

To Kerwin and Adam:

I believe you folks are missing the point of Matthew 22:44-46.  The Pharisees were expecting the Messiah to be ONLY the SON of David.  Jesus let them know that if the Messiah was ONLY the SON of David, David would not ever call him “My Lord”.  Look at his question.  “45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”

Jesus is hinting that the Messiah is not REALLY the son of David, but only according to the flesh, as affirmed by Paul:

NIV Romans 1:3
regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,

Now add this teaching of Jesus to Isaiah 11:10,

Isaiah 11:10
In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

You see Adam?  Even the OT teaches of the pre-existence of Jesus.  And that's not even mentioning Proverbs 8 or Micah 5.

I wise man (Pierre ) reminded me that there are no contradictions in scripture – only things that we don't fully understand yet.

You think the NT says Jesus created anything?  Look again.  And use the Greek words, not the English translation.  All things are FROM God, THROUGH Jesus. (1 Cor 8:6)  And that is all that the NT teaches, unless you read a trinitarian translation that uses the word “BY” instead of “THROUGH”.  But in using the word “BY”, the trinitarians don't think they are going against the OT that says only God created……..for they think Jesus IS that God who created.  But that's just the fantasy world they live in.

Can either one of you guys answer me about the bread that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN?  The Jews definitely recognized that Jesus was saying he came down from heaven, so why don't you?

Adam, I do understand your confusion.  But understand this:

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

You don't have to understand it all right now.  Just trust that our God is in control………and trust Him completely.

Adam, if there are “contradictions” or anything else you want to discuss with me, hit me up.  But I like things “one point or scripture at a time”. So if there's something in that long post you specifically want me to address, please post it again in a shorter post.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 17 2010,22:59)

Adam has addressed you kindly and with consideration of your feeling and expressed his view and then you come back accusing him of all kinds of things,

Hi Gene,

I think Irene is in her own way pointing out that this section is for the believers.  We would also not want Stu and Bod over here disrupting our “believer's” discussions with atheist or Muslim rhetoric.  Adam is on the edge of claiming the NT is not really scripture.

He has a right to his beliefs, but those posts are for the non-believer's part of the forum.  

All here believe in the OT AND the NT.  

Do you get the drift?  I've mentioned this to Adam before also.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Gene:

Quote

Mike…………What you do is quote scripture that can be taken many ways you force the text to meet your dogmas, while all the time ignoring scripture that contradict those points,

Gene, have you noticed I don't post to you too much anymore?  You, my friend, spout nonsense.  I have not “forced” any one of the 40 scriptures in the database.  I post them as they were written and understand them as such.  On the other hand, I have not changed anything in any scripture you've posted.  It's just that you haven't posted any scripture that eliminates the pre-existence of Jesus.  Being fore-ordained as God's Christ and our Priest says abslolutely nothing about him not pre-existing.  Satan could have been said to be “fore-ordained” as “the original serpent who was the devil”, but that wouldn't mean he didn't already exist in heaven before he started his crap on earth, right?  On the other hand, I could already have been “fore-ordained” to be Jesus' “right hand man” when he comes back.  And that wouldn't mean I DID pre-exist.  One has nothing to do with the other.  Being fore-ordained neither IMPLIES nor DENIES pre-exsitence.

So tell me what non-preexistent scripture I've ignored?

Gene:

Quote

Just some of your forced text are , Jesus is the Root and offspring of David , as having a double meaning when in fact it is stated as one and the same thing a which Jesus showing His linage as a human being and (FROM) the (root and offspring)of David root and offspring are both describing the same thing, but you separate them to mean two desperate things.

Do you see what I mean Gene?  This is pure nonsense.  Isaiah 11:10 doesn't say Jesus will be FROM the root of Jesse.  It says he IS the Root of Jesse.  If you can't figure out that “branch of David” means AFTER David and “root of David” means BEFORE David, then what can I do?  So who's the one adding the implied word “from” in Isaiah Gene?  I'm not adding anything to the scripture – YOU ARE.

Gene:

Quote

Like the Before Abraham thing meaning He was saying He existed as a Being , when in fact he was showing His importance and Position as the context would show you, if you would not force the text to meet you preconceived dogmas.

Gene, the CONTEXT is that the Jews Jesus was speaking to CLEARLY understood what he was saying.  That's why they asked him how he could have existed BEFORE Abraham when he wasn't even 50 years old yet.  Get it?  They KNEW the CONTEXT of what Jesus was teaching them, they just didn't want to believe it.  You on the other hand, cannot even seem to grasp the meaning of the context at all.  Again Gene, which one of us is spouting things about what the scripture “really means”?  I'm just taking is as it is written, and I understand Jesus to be saying exactly what the Jews understood him to be saying.  It is YOU who must “force” the text in some non-sensical way Gene.

Gene:

Quote

Your preconceived ideologies are forcing you to drive the text to meet you ideas and anyone can do that,

But can't you see it's YOU who is doing this?  We all can.  Out of the three points I've just responded to, which one of us must “imagine” it “means something else”?  Not me, but YOU.

Just like with John 17:5 – that's your most non-sensical one to date.  What about Micah 5:2 Gene?  What about this one below?

John 6 NIV
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

And once again, the Jews understood exactly what Jesus was teaching them, but most just didn't want to accept it.  And once again, you can't even get as far as they did, for you think he meant “God came down from heaven IN him” or some other silliness.

I posted about this subject, at first specifically to you Gene.  You didn't even bother to answer.  Then when Adam did, you said, “Yeah Mike!  What Adam said!”     And what about my post on the Light of the World?  I've seen no comment on that one either.

Here's the deal Gene.  I'm pretty much done with you on the topic of pre-existence.  You don't argue scripturally.  In fact, most of your posts in the 6 months we've been discussing it are just the same post over and over about how I'm separating us from Jesus and how I'm a trinitarian and the antichrist.  Well, I've had enough of you on this topic.

If you ever want to get serious and actually SENSIBLY refute a single scripture at at time, hit me up.  Anything but that, and I will just ignore your posts as I've been doing for a couple of weeks already.

peace and love,
mike

[Ed J]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 18 2010,00:48)

Ed, everything to you is God's Holy Spirit and are you going to put that up another how many times? You and others seem to not want to believe in Scriptures, and want to do your own thing… If I will put them up again, you or any one else is not going to stop me, I have that right as well as you have….and I am glad there is no one to stop me….So do you then believe that Jesus preexisted?  Since you said that you don't ignore Scriptures, or do you interpret Scriptures the way you want them to say??? That is not the same, my friend….Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

Here is one that I keep in stock! And look it already has your name on it too!

Hi Irene,

Yes, Irene; we all preexisted our flesh!
Thanks very much for your concern in this matter!
2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)

                         “The Word” in us!

John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.
Acts 12:24 But “The word” of God grew and multiplied.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Proclaimer]

EdJ

John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.

Is that not Jesus talking about his ministry on Earth.
They were with him from the beginning of his ministry when at such time he called them.
They were witnesses from the beginning. Not his birth, nor his existence as the Logos, but his ministry.

[Ed J]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 18 2010,12:06)

EdJ John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit), because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning. Is that not Jesus talking about his ministry on Earth. They were with him from the beginning of his ministry when at such time he called them. They were witnesses from the beginning. Not his birth, nor his existence as the Logos, but his ministry.

Hi T8,

Do you distance yourself from this verse too?
Matt.16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me,
let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

If not, why not?

How about this one…
John 16:14-5 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine,
and shall show it unto you. (Is this not witnessing for Jesus)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 18 2010,04:58)

Hi Adam, You are welcome!  I appreciate your searching heart and I am glad to see that you have come away from the unitarian position.  Sometime the Lord may lead us again into deep discussion and I will look forward to that if it comes. Our friend Mandy has found more active things to do I'm sure and from what she last wrote, is attending a Catholic church but doesn't buy all they teach.  I think she needed a rest from all the confusion here.  May the Lord give you both and us all His perfect peace from the Prince of Peace-Jesus Christ. One thing that I have to say about darkness, darkness is only the absence of light and not a created thing.  Think about your shadow on a sunny day.  Your shadow is not something created but a result of you standing in the path of the light source.  I hope that helps God bless your search! Kathi

Hi Sis Kathi,
I appreciate your reply and I am thankful to you for encouraging my searching heart. Many can not do that. I am also thankful to you for giving information about Sis Mandy. I long to see her on Heavennet. But as you mentioned she may be right in choosing out of these unending debates for some time. Yea, I am free from any doctrinal bias now and I have become neutral. I am willing to see any new revelations like you used bring here earlier.

You may be right in saying darkness need not be created rather it exists from the beginning so as to differentiate light.

Love and peace to you
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 18 2010,10:52)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2010,17:45) Mike Boll, As to Matthew 22:44-46, I assure you Jesus is not just king of the Jews but rather he is King of everything in Heaven and on Earth.  The Jewish authorities, for the most part, and some of the people when prompted to, rejected him as king by putting him to death. To Kerwin and Adam: I believe you folks are missing the point of Matthew 22:44-46.  The Pharisees were expecting the Messiah to be ONLY the SON of David.  Jesus let them know that if the Messiah was ONLY the SON of David, David would not ever call him “My Lord”.  Look at his question.  “45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” Jesus is hinting that the Messiah is not REALLY the son of David, but only according to the flesh, as affirmed by Paul: NIV Romans 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, Now add this teaching of Jesus to Isaiah 11:10, Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. You see Adam?  Even the OT teaches of the pre-existence of Jesus.  And that's not even mentioning Proverbs 8 or Micah 5. I wise man (Pierre ) reminded me that there are no contradictions in scripture – only things that we don't fully understand yet. You think the NT says Jesus created anything?  Look again.  And use the Greek words, not the English translation.  All things are FROM God, THROUGH Jesus. (1 Cor 8:6)  And that is all that the NT teaches, unless you read a trinitarian translation that uses the word “BY” instead of “THROUGH”.  But in using the word “BY”, the trinitarians don't think they are going against the OT that says only God created……..for they think Jesus IS that God who created.  But that's just the fantasy world they live in. Can either one of you guys answer me about the bread that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN?  The Jews definitely recognized that Jesus was saying he came down from heaven, so why don't you? Adam, I do understand your confusion.  But understand this: Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; You don't have to understand it all right now.  Just trust that our God is in control………and trust Him completely. Adam, if there are “contradictions” or anything else you want to discuss with me, hit me up.  But I like things “one point or scripture at a time”.  So if there's something in that long post you specifically want me to address, please post it again in a shorter post. peace and love, mike

Hi brother Mike,
Again you avoid my questions and tried to prove your ideas. You are not alone Christian here all of us are faithful Christians. We came here to debate on certain complicated issues. You quote only one side of the truth but we bring the other side where you never touched. As I told I am neutral on any concept of Christianity. I think rational not like many Christians who blindly follow their old misconceptions.

Here I bring Matthew 22:44-46
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet? 45 If David then calleth him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Where is the so called preexistence here? I don't find any such thing as you claim here. Jesus was telling if David calls Messiah Lord how could he be a son of him? Nothing wrong in that question because Messiah would be Lord of David or any great king of Israel. God will appoint Messiah as king of kings and Lord of Lords. It is the context of Psalm 110 you should see. No where preexistence of Messiah was meant in that psalm. Please read Jewish concepts on Messiah you will understand that they never understood Meesiah as we Christians do. He will be an ordinary human being like Moses as I quoted from Deut 18:18.

Again I quote from Isaiah 11:
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
  from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

Where is this so called preexistence of Messiah as you claim in this verse. If you misinterpret scriptures who can help. N.T quotes this verse confusingly in Rev 22 as Jesus is the Root and the Offspring of David.

You quoted this verse from Isa 11:
10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

I can only safely interpret it for tribe of Judah not for Messiah as you claim. Because of Messiah the tribe of Judah will be blessed and will be in the lime light. Where is again this preexistence? One more clarification for you and brother T8 who quote Rev 22 often on “root being first” I don't agree with that idea since the shoot/stump is base for its root which grows from it. The question is not which is first but the base . I can agree that the root supports the stump or tree.

I got vexed with such alleged doctrines. I quit for time being away from such unending arguments to have some peace.
Sorry for that.
Peace to you
Adam

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