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Quote (Baker @ Nov. 15 2010,09:02) Gene! I don't believe in the trinity and I don't believe like WJ or any organized Church either. They believe that Jesus always existed, I don't. There is a big difference…. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
It is this Scripture that I believe that John 1:1 is what became Jesus, in verse 14
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
This also says in the beginning, the beginning of the creation of God….Just like Rev. 3:14
If you don't want to believe this, that is up to you, I am not sinning by believing Jesus was the firstborn of all creation…. That's it…..Irene
42 and countingQuote (Baker @ Nov. 13 2010,00:19) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 12 2010,14:30) Please for God's sake don't abuse one another in this forum. Please come back to decensy. This is the reason why I am becoming skeptic these days. Our Bible can not answer our queries on any doctrine. It is disputing and contradicting on any concept of Christ. Our history of Christianity is full of such notorious crimes on makind who were critical in exposing the controversies in our Bible. I could not see even one agreement on any topic here. The reason is our Bible which is variant in its concepts and doctrines. I can not blame Sis Irene, brothers like Pierre, Mike or Gene for arguing here for years together. It is the fate of my religion. I am sorry my brothers and sisters to say that.
Please be human and compassionate what even Jesus taught us.Love and peace to all
Adam
Sorry Adam, but I don't share your confusion of Scriptures. There is no contradiction. It all explains itself if you search for it. Show me one Scripture that you say contradicts…
And which doctrine are you talking about. The Trinity is very well not shown in Scriptures and that the doctrine is wrong. The Preexisting of Jesus has more then 30 Scriptures that explains it. What else?
? The problem comes in when some just want to ignore those Scripture and start to get very personal. That I don't like at all, and it has no place on a Christian website…There are Brethren that just can't understand and by their frustration start to get nasty….. ….Peace Irene
Hi Sis Irene,
Please gothrough these links
http://oaks.nvg.org/bible-debris.html#bible-inconsistencies
http://www.infidels.org/library….es.htmlQuote (gollamudi @ Nov. 15 2010,16:33) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 13 2010,00:19) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 12 2010,14:30) Please for God's sake don't abuse one another in this forum. Please come back to decensy. This is the reason why I am becoming skeptic these days. Our Bible can not answer our queries on any doctrine. It is disputing and contradicting on any concept of Christ. Our history of Christianity is full of such notorious crimes on makind who were critical in exposing the controversies in our Bible. I could not see even one agreement on any topic here. The reason is our Bible which is variant in its concepts and doctrines. I can not blame Sis Irene, brothers like Pierre, Mike or Gene for arguing here for years together. It is the fate of my religion. I am sorry my brothers and sisters to say that.
Please be human and compassionate what even Jesus taught us.Love and peace to all
Adam
Sorry Adam, but I don't share your confusion of Scriptures. There is no contradiction. It all explains itself if you search for it. Show me one Scripture that you say contradicts…
And which doctrine are you talking about. The Trinity is very well not shown in Scriptures and that the doctrine is wrong. The Preexisting of Jesus has more then 30 Scriptures that explains it. What else?? The problem comes in when some just want to ignore those Scripture and start to get very personal. That I don't like at all, and it has no place on a Christian website…There are Brethren that just can't understand and by their frustration start to get nasty….. ….Peace Irene
Hi Sis Irene,
Please gothrough these links
http://oaks.nvg.org/bible-debris.html#bible-inconsistencies
http://www.infidels.org/library….es.html
Adam! I read some of the long Article and I choose to believe in the Bible, even though it has some contradiction, however. I can search the Bible by a doctrine and prove it right or wrong. Take he trinity for instance. There is one Scripture that could be taken as the trinity. While there are close to 9 Scriptures that prove it to be wrong. I can take the preexisting of Jesus and prove it with 30 different Scriptures….The problem comes in when some here want to take those Scriptures not the way they are written, but interpret the way they want it to say….We only have the Bible to read about what and who God is….The Letters of the Apostles were translated by some Catholic Monks, and put into a Book, which later was published along with the Old Testament, which the Jewish People preserved………….IreneAdam……….Mills said there were over 20,000 Grammatical error in our present bibles , is it any wonder there is so much confusion as you see here and every where else. It absolutely takes GOD'S Spirit to come to the realization of what is being truly transfered to us , that is why it says let the spirit have its perfect work. I am absolutely convinced that there are thousands of different conclusion people can draw from our present text if not millions. But remember “BRETHREN YOU HAVE NO NEED ANYONE TEACH YOU FOR THE SPIRIT ITSELF WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS. And again, ” NO YOU NOT THAT YOU SHALL (ALL) BE TAUGHT BY GOD”. SO DON'T GET DISCOURAGED BROTHER JUST KEEP GOING FORWARD AND WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WILL COME TO YOU. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………………………………………gene
Adam,
I figured out that the translators did not have the Spirit a long time ago. I decided it is irrelevant since God is the one who teaches me and he is overly redundant in inscribing the message of salvation in scripture. I admit he hides it from those who love sin and Satan obscures it further hoping to keep it from those who want to stop sinning but God is trickier than Satan and thus those who seek God will find him. I aim to be one of those that seek God.
Gene, I didn't notice a reply to this post. Kerwin and Adam, you're invited also.
You didn't choose between bread and light Gene. So I will start with light.
John 3:19 NIV
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.John 8:12 NWT
12 Therefore Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.”John 9:5 NWT
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the world’s light.”John 12:35-36 NIV
35 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where they are going. 36 Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”John 12:44-46 NIV
44 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.Now Gene, is there any doubt in your mind that these scriptures CLEARLY describe Jesus as the “Light of the World”?
And what else do we know about this “Light of the World”?
John 1:6-12 NIV
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
Let me walk you through this Gene.
1. Jesus IS the Light of the world, for he specifically says so in John 8:12 and 9:5, right?
2. John the Baptist came to testify about this light – and we all know who John testified about, right?
3. This “Light” was coming into the world.
4. The world was actually made through him, but the world didn't recognize him.
5. All who believed in this “Light” were given the right to become children of God.
Gene, this “Light” is the “Word” spoken of in John 1:1. It is the same Word who became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father. It is Jesus.
peace and love,
mikeUp next, your daily dose of bread.
Your “bread” as promised:
John 6:32-33 NIV
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”John 6:35 NIV
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.John 6:38 NIV
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.John 6:41-42 NIV
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”John 6:48-51 NIV
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”Shall we point by point it like we did the Light?
1. God GAVE this bread, so we know the bread isn't actually God.
2. Jesus clearly says he IS the bread of life that came DOWN FROM HEAVEN………..many times.
3. While the Jews didn't understand exactly what Jesus was saying, they understood that Jesus was clearly saying he came down from heaven.
Any questions?
peace and love,
mikeHi Sis Irene and brothers Gene & Kerwin,
I appreciate your replies for my post on contradictions in the Bible. As you too noticed any doctrine can be supported by the written word of the Bible. There may be certain imbalance in finding the scriptures to suit your own ideas but no one can be right when compared to other's views. I found it from the unending debates here on Heavennet especially on Trinity, Preexistence, Free Will etc. Most of us claim to be led by spirit of God if so why others are not accepting our views? As per Jewish expectation when Messiah comes he will convince all of them with God's word and infact they will be taught by God. If the Messiah had already come why not this happening on this earth? Why havoc among brothern? Why there is no peace on earth?These are the questions running in my mind.
I hope you will notice them too.
Peace and love
AdamQuote (Baker @ Nov. 15 2010,09:02) Gene! I don't believe in the trinity and I don't believe like WJ or any organized Church either. They believe that Jesus always existed, I don't. There is a big difference…. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
It is this Scripture that I believe that John 1:1 is what became Jesus, in verse 14
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
This also says in the beginning, the beginning of the creation of God….Just like Rev. 3:14
If you don't want to believe this, that is up to you, I am not sinning by believing Jesus was the firstborn of all creation…. That's it…..Irene
44 and countingQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 15 2010,15:03) EDJ………42 and counting What?. peace and love………………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,That's how many times that Irene has posted that Post!
Does it look familiar to you yet? It certainly should by now.Maybe she thinks like you: that if she can influence us strongly enough,
we “Will” have no “Free” choice but to accept what she keeps telling us!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi brother Mike,
1.If Jesus is the light then God is light thereby Jesus is God. Is that you mean?
2.If Jesus is the light then God created light first in the beginning thereby Jesus is the first creation of God as our sister LightenUp(Kathy) often claims here. Is that you mean?
3.Jesus said you are the light of the world if so disciples are also equal to Jesus in self same way. Is that you mean.
4.If Jesus is the bread of life that came from God and every word(impersonal) that comes out from God is bread that gives life them Jesus must be the word of God(impersonal) that came from heaven. Is that you mean?Please read Isa 55:8-11
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.as well as Psalm 33:6
6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.No where in the above passages 'God's word' means any personal being apart from God. I can only say it is poetical and figurative speech that is mentioned in John's Gospel about Jesus who was like the word of God fulfilled in a person called Jesus rather God spoke through this human Jesus.
Remember what Moses was promised by God in Deut 18:15-20;
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 The LORD said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”Here the prophet was none but Jesus as per Peter's sermon in Acts 2-3. Through Jesus the prophet God wanted speak to people of Israel.
See also Heb 1:1;
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,The above proves that Jesus is the one human prophet through whom God spoke to people of Israel. Nowhere in all these scriptures it says Jesus some how preexisting as we claim here.
If Christianity is true monotheism I don't think John meant 'word' was separate person from God. If it so he could have meant two Godly beings existed from the beginning.
This is where I am fed up with our religion which could not give me straight answers to my queries.
Hope you will understand my tragedy.
Peace to you
AdamAdam adam Adam,
How you understand it to mean, stick with your understanding. BE OK WITH your understanding. But try to make sure its a safe one, scriptual. Remember that God has protected his Holy Writings, sent them around the world, in fullfilment of what the Lord has said would happen (This news of the coming kingdom will be spread throughout the world as a witness to all the Nations and then the end will come) trust it. Dont trust anything else.
Ask yourself things, I have to. Do we sin ? If we do, stop.
Do we spend enough time with God ? If we dont, then do,
Who do we see ? Do they influenece us the right way ?There is much confusion BELIEVE ME. Just be yourself, ask, look for answers, But remember stop reading so much ADAM.
Adam.
The division shows who is and who is not approved by God.
Jesus warned us such division would happen when he said he came bearing the sword.
I am not sure you are correct about Jews unless they are ignoring the Tanakh.
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 16 2010,19:11) Adam adam Adam, How you understand it to mean, stick with your understanding. BE OK WITH your understanding. But try to make sure its a safe one, scriptual. Remember that God has protected his Holy Writings, sent them around the world, in fullfilment of what the Lord has said would happen (This news of the coming kingdom will be spread throughout the world as a witness to all the Nations and then the end will come) trust it. Dont trust anything else.
Ask yourself things, I have to. Do we sin ? If we do, stop.
Do we spend enough time with God ? If we dont, then do,
Who do we see ? Do they influenece us the right way ?There is much confusion BELIEVE ME. Just be yourself, ask, look for answers, But remember stop reading so much ADAM.
Hi Sis Karmarie,
Thanks again for your personal words for me. I have stopped reading much these days but my mind can not stop thinking what is already fed to it. Please see how our brother Mike challenges people on this pre-existece as if he alone is true. That is the reason why I gave some of my thought which are on other side of his beliefs. I don't think I have committed any blunder by doing this.Yes I am praying to God for showing me the true path. Thanks again for your prayers for this feeble brother.
With lots of love
AdamOK Adam, thats good, your doing well, your doing OK, I pray that God be with you and keep you safe from all the worry and confusion, and for both of us, because I need that too. We will be ok Adam.
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,17:23) Hi brother Mike,
1.If Jesus is the light then God is light thereby Jesus is God. Is that you mean?
2.If Jesus is the light then God created light first in the beginning thereby Jesus is the first creation of God as our sister LightenUp(Kathy) often claims here. Is that you mean?
3.Jesus said you are the light of the world if so disciples are also equal to Jesus in self same way. Is that you mean.
4.If Jesus is the bread of life that came from God and every word(impersonal) that comes out from God is bread that gives life them Jesus must be the word of God(impersonal) that came from heaven. Is that you mean?Please read Isa 55:8-11
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.as well as Psalm 33:6
6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.No where in the above passages 'God's word' means any personal being apart from God. I can only say it is poetical and figurative speech that is mentioned in John's Gospel about Jesus who was like the word of God fulfilled in a person called Jesus rather God spoke through this human Jesus.
Remember what Moses was promised by God in Deut 18:15-20;
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 The LORD said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”Here the prophet was none but Jesus as per Peter's sermon in Acts 2-3. Through Jesus the prophet God wanted speak to people of Israel.
See also Heb 1:1;
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,The above proves that Jesus is the one human prophet through whom God spoke to people of Israel. Nowhere in all these scriptures it says Jesus some how preexisting as we claim here.
If Christianity is true monotheism I don't think John meant 'word' was separate person from God. If it so he could have meant two Godly beings existed from the beginning.
This is where I am fed up with our religion which could not give me straight answers to my queries.
Hope you will understand my tragedy.
Peace to you
Adam
Adam………….Perfect Post Brother, you have said it rightly and clearly, God blesses you brother and gives you recall to lay straight his words, Man did indeed reject GOD and GOD then Spoke to us through Men and one of was the SON OF MAN < Jesus our brother. Digging through all the confusion takes work as Kerwin, Shimmer, and you both do and God does reveal his truth to those who truly seek it. Keep up the good work brother. You have it right brother.Alway remember "THE SPIRIT ITSELF BEARS WITNESS WITH OUR SPIRIT THAT WE ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD". This witness is the Spirit (intellect) of THE TRUTH, all WHO HAVE THIS SPIRIT (INTELLECT) (IN) KNOW THE (SOUND ) OF THE TRUTH. Let the Spirit have its perfect work in you brother. Stand firm in what it reveals to you and you will be a vessel that the LORD our GOD will work through.peace and love to you and yours Adam………………………gene
MIke…………..Well, what do you think about what Adam Posted , don't try to get around if face it head on and accept it , it may act as eye save for you and you might begin to understand and see clearer Brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………gene
Hi Adam,
It has been awhile since we talked. I feel really tired at the moment but I did see that you wrote this about what I believe is possible and I just wanted to clarify something about that.you said:
Quote 2.If Jesus is the light then God created light first in the beginning thereby Jesus is the first creation of God as our sister LightenUp(Kathy) often claims here. Is that you mean? I do not think that Jesus is the first creation of God. I don't consider Jesus as being created before the ages but begotten after a kind who was God. God beget the begotten God. Jesus is the firstBORN and the first to be born had to come from birth, not creation. I do still think that it was possible for Jesus to be begotten when God said “Let there be light.”
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that.
I hope for you to find the peace you long for,
Kathi
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