Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 12 2010,19:02)

Terricca………No one gives a rip about your two bt “chances” , In the post above i ask you for you Proof that the Catholic and the Protestant Churches , did not believe in PREEXISTENCE of Jesus , You completely ignored it, and then proceed to called me a Lier so i ask for proof of that lie , now you come back without proving me wrong and then start saying i have never produced any scriptures to show that Jesus did not preexist His berth which is another LIE. I and Many other Have Produce Many, Many,Many Scriptures and sound reasoning to go along with them. I do not chose to go around and around with you and Having you continue to completely ignore what i have said to try to twist it some how, Dialogging with you is chaotic and ignorant. Do us both a favor and don't respond to any of my Post's OK>

gene

here again you are confirm that you are not to teach truth but the catholics believes and protestant as well.

sorry fellow i am not in those in any way can not help you but if it is scriptures those i know very well,

but it seem those are the ones you do not know,

so that should be the end i guess

Pierre

November 12, 2010 at 3:40 am#224244

Participant

Pierre, tomorrow I will call the Archdioceses of our City, and a Priest where we went to Church a long time ago. When we belonged there they did not teach the preexisting of Jesus. Since Gene insist that they do I want to find out from them…Gene also said that even back then that they did, and I say that is a lie….we'll see……Irene..

November 12, 2010 at 3:44 am#224248

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 11 2010,14:55)

Mike………..So now you are saying GOD Plans and Purposes are not in His Presence right?

No Gene,

God's plans and purposes are in His mind. They are not physical things that can be sitting there “in His presence”. And also, Jesus would not have said I HAD glory if he meant God's “plans and purposes” had the glory in His presence before the world – whatever that would mean.

You didn't choose between bread and light Gene. So I will start with light.

John 3:19 NIV
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

John 8:12 NWT
12 Therefore Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.”

John 9:5 NWT
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the world’s light.”

John 12:35-36 NIV
35 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where they are going. 36 Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

John 12:44-46 NIV
44 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

Now Gene, is there any doubt in your mind that these scriptures CLEARLY describe Jesus as the “Light of the World”?

And what else do we know about this “Light of the World”?

John 1:6-12 NIV
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

Let me walk you through this Gene.

1. Jesus IS the Light of the world, for he specifically says so in John 8:12 and 9:5, right?

2. John the Baptist came to testify about this light – and we all know who John testified about, right?

3. This “Light” was coming into the world.

4. The world was actually made through him, but the world didn't recognize him.

5. All who believed in this “Light” were given the right to become children of God.

Gene, this “Light” is the “Word” spoken of in John 1:1. It is the same Word who became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father. It is Jesus.

I'll wait to see how you butcher these scriptures before giving you bread.

peace and love,
mike

November 12, 2010 at 4:30 am#224255

Participant

Please for God's sake don't abuse one another in this forum. Please come back to decensy. This is the reason why I am becoming skeptic these days. Our Bible can not answer our queries on any doctrine. It is disputing and contradicting on any concept of Christ. Our history of Christianity is full of such notorious crimes on makind who were critical in exposing the controversies in our Bible. I could not see even one agreement on any topic here. The reason is our Bible which is variant in its concepts and doctrines. I can not blame Sis Irene, brothers like Pierre, Mike or Gene for arguing here for years together. It is the fate of my religion. I am sorry my brothers and sisters to say that.
Please be human and compassionate what even Jesus taught us.

Love and peace to all
Adam

November 12, 2010 at 5:11 am#224258

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 12 2010,21:30)

Love and peace to all
Adam

Adam

could please explain this;The reason is our Bible which is variant in its concepts and doctrines,

thanks

Pierre

November 12, 2010 at 6:40 am#224268

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 12 2010,15:11)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 12 2010,21:30)

Love and peace to all
Adam

Adam

could please explain this;The reason is our Bible which is variant in its concepts and doctrines,

thanks

Pierre

Hi brother Pierre,
Thanks for your response. I am sorry to comment that way on our Bible. You know we have been debating on various topics like Trinity, Pre-existence, divinity of Jesus for the past few years here in this forum that it self shows some thing wrong with us or with source of our discussion, the Bible. I can not blame all of us here for such uneding debates. At least few of us are true believers even they could not clarify the queries raised here on various topics. For example Trinity is supported by the same Bible by some of the members of this forum but the same was refuted by many of us with the same Bible. Pre-existence is being supported vigorously by some of us by the same Bible but it is being refuted by few of us yet with same Bible. So where is the fault for all these confusions except our very source, the Bible? For the pat few years I have been searching all Christian doctrines through their websites by comparing with our Bible with honest and without any bias. I found most of them are true as per the Bible if they take the verses individually. But they are wrong when compared with other verses from the same Bible. Hebrew Bible (our O.T) does not claim that the Jewish Messiah was preexisting but certain verses seem to support preexistence like Mica 5. New Testament claim divinity of Jesus in some passages where the Lordship of God was shared by Jesus himself. But certain passages negate this divinity like those of Acts 2 & 3.

This is the fate my Bible.I just quoted few examples. You yourself can see them if you are frank enough.
Love and peace
Adam

November 12, 2010 at 7:03 am#224273

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 12 2010,23:40)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 12 2010,15:11)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 12 2010,21:30)

Love and peace to all
Adam

Adam

could please explain this;The reason is our Bible which is variant in its concepts and doctrines,

thanks

Pierre

Hi brother Pierre,
Thanks for your response. I am sorry to comment that way on our Bible. You know we have been debating on various topics like Trinity, Pre-existence, divinity of Jesus for the past few years here in this forum that it self shows some thing wrong with us or with source of discussion the Bible. I can not blame all of us here for such uneding debates. At least few of us are true believers even they could not clarify the queries raised here on various topics. For example Trinity is supported by the same Bible by many of the members of this forum but the same was refuted by some of us with the same Bible. Pre-existence is being supported vigorously by some of us by the same Bible but it is being refuted by few of us yet with same Bible. So where is the fault for all these confusions except our very source the Bible? For the pat few years I searched all Christian doctrines through their websites by comparing with our Bible with honest and without any bias. I found most of them are true as per the Bible if they take the verses individually. But they are wrong when compared with other verses from the same Bible. Hebrew Bible (our O.T) does not claim that the Jewish Messiah was preexisting but certain verses seem to support preexistence like Mica 5. New Testament claim divinity of Jesus in some passages where the Lordship of God was shared by Jesus himself. But certain passages negate this divinity like those of Acts 2 & 3.
This is the fate my Bible.I just quoted few examples. You yourself can see them if you are frank enough.
Love and peace
Adam

Adam

i like your comment and you are right on most;
but the reasons why we are so a part, it is not the scriptures that dividing us,it is what some believe deep in them self to be true or not,some like to argue ,some do not have enough knowledge ,some have been brain Wash and so can not see truth,some believe what others are saying,
all this is going on since the beginning ,Paul as well felt that pinch,
but wen we come up with many scriptures like in preexistence
if someone believe it is not true why is it that they do not pick up the bible and say ,here it is fellows this and this in scriptures is this and not this;;but no one came forward to do just that, of cause they would have to explain all the other scriptures,this no one challenge our scriptures and keep on arguing and that is totally wrong.

so this is more of not accepting scriptures ,and so rejecting God s word.

there is one more thing i would like to say to you,it is very important to understand the spirit of Christ,this would include “the reasons for Christ to be “

Pierre

November 12, 2010 at 7:42 am#224281

Participant

Thanks for your agreement brother Pierre. There lies the problem. Every one of us claim for her or himself that he or she is led by the spirit of Christ. But at the same time they argue negatively and can not give proper reasons for their convictions. This I am seeing here from the beginnin. But the sad thing is God is silent on these issues He never interferes our debates and discussion. His silence is killing me. What to do brother there is my frustration.

Sorry once again
Adam

November 12, 2010 at 7:57 am#224282

shimmer

Participant

Hi Adam.

I have found the same problem, with confusion, people debating, not only debating but often they get angry, it's like some people have an agenda, and want to take others with them, in the way they see it, and when they dont get that, then they get angry, and also get angry at anyone who disagrees with them. Not caring at all.

One thing I think is true, understanding the scriptures can only be done with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is obvious in a person, because they will have love and they will not be selfish, there are ways to tell.

So without the true spirit, people can read scripture yes,….they can come up with AMAZING ideas and insights yes, but, all they have is an earthly spirit not he spirit of truth, and as they learn, they take others with them, the others also get misled, thats how it goes. That is how iv seen it.

November 12, 2010 at 8:50 am#224288

Participant

Hi Sis,
Thanks for your observations. I know no one can blame the Bible for these confruntations leaving me alone. I like your positive spirit and loving heart.

May God continue to fill you with such comforting spirit.
Love and peace to you
Adam

November 12, 2010 at 2:19 pm#224299

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 12 2010,14:30)

Love and peace to all
Adam

Sorry Adam, but I don't share your confusion of Scriptures. There is no contradiction. It all explains itself if you search for it. Show me one Scripture that you say contradicts…
And which doctrine are you talking about. The Trinity is very well not shown in Scriptures and that the doctrine is wrong. The Preexisting of Jesus has more then 30 Scriptures that explains it. What else?? The problem comes in when some just want to ignore those Scripture and start to get very personal. That I don't like at all, and it has no place on a Christian website…There are Brethren that just can't understand and by their frustration start to get nasty….. …

.Peace Irene

November 12, 2010 at 2:32 pm#224300

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To All………….The ideology of preexistence had an origin, maybe if we can look into that origin we can better see its fallacy, The origin of a preexisting Christ in the beginning of Christianity ,was by the teaching of the GNOSTIC'S, This teaching was believed to come from the Greek and Egypt and Roman pagan mindset, they believe in Man GODS and Gods Cohabiting with Women and Coming to earth in all kind of forms, The also believe that there was a place these Gods came from and would come to earth and perform various activities. A Christanoty varius pagan practices began to work its way into the church and the apostles had to deal with these false teachings.

The main pagan teachings that began to infect the church was that of the Gnostic's this teaching is what the apostle Paul and John had to deal with , its basic teachings were of a Christ who truly was not a Human being but a Person who was sent to earth from a place where the GOD'S lived , he was sent to straighten out the earth which another GOD messed up. This God was Jesus and He came disguised as a Man, but really was not a true Human but only appeared as a human being, but truly was a God. He performed Miracles and Heals the people and went about straightening out what the First God messed up.

These false teachings were held back by the Apostle when they were alive and even though it was a very strong influencing force because of all the pagans Gentiles coming into the Church who had been exposed to these false teaching and ideologies most of there lives the apostle like Paul and John held it back. When the Apostles died these teaching of Iniquity began to influence and take over and take root in the church it took about 300 years for them to completely take over the teachings of the true church of GOD, and became complete at the council of Nacia in 325 AD under the control of the Pagan Emperor Constantine Who forced all pagan to become Christian and caused these completely changed religion to be the religion of Roman Empire.

Concepts like PREEXISTENCE OF JESUS as a GOD or Demigod or morphed Angel of some kind infected the Church . Worship days wee changed Like Passover to Esthar the (pagan Goddess of Sex and Fertility) took its place , Christmas was introduced as the Berth pf Jesus On the 25th of Dec, ties in with the pagan worshipers of the Solace of the sun God worshipers, and the Sabbath was changed to the Sun God day or Sunday worship. The whole line of concepts of Demon going around taking control of People and Spook and demons all originated from these mindsets derived from pagan teachings had completely infected the true Church as it is today, a Complete APOSTATE CHURCH, full of false teaching of various kinds , but the Worst teaching of all is the teachings that (SEPARATES) JESUS FROM OUR OWN IDENTITY, AS A HUMAN BEING COMING INTO EXISTENCE (EXACTLY) AS WE DID. This teaching Moves Jesus away from us human and places Him in another realm of existence apart from us . It destroys the work of GOD and Jesus in Humanity by distorting the Truth of GODS WORK (IN) HUMANITY> It obscures the Plan and Purpose of GOD for all human beings that he had in the begining before he ever started His creation on earth.

I have noticed and others also that people who hold to these Pagan teaching have a form of MYSTERY to their reasonings they can force scripture to make them say what in FACT they DO NOT ACTUALLY SAY. In 2 Ths2… Paul says that GOD sends to them this deluding SPIRIT (INTELLECT) IN ORDER FOR THEM TO BELIEVE (THE LIE). I have been convinced that all who are under this deluding influence can not be changed by any sound debates as Proof of Here. Because as it say they have NOT RECEIVED THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, GOD SENDS TO THE THIS DELUDING SPIRIT, What God has Done no one can change, so to argue with them is futile at best. The best thing those who can see the Truth can do is encourage those who do love the truth and have eyes to see it, but debate with the blind and ignorant is futile at best, as has been proven here many many times over and over. IMO

peace and love to you all………………………………………gene

November 12, 2010 at 2:50 pm#224301

Participant

Hi Pierre, I did call the Church that we belonged to, but could not get someone on the Phone. I did not want to leave my name with them. I will try again later…I think that since they believe in the Trinity they will say that Christ always existed. But that is a far cry of in believing that Christ first had a beginning and was the firstborn of all creation…. So I believe their teaching is only what I used to do with our Children, is the trinity, and that BTW is wrong. We don't believe in the trinity… So to put both under one roof is ridiculous to say the least…Peace Irene

November 12, 2010 at 3:15 pm#224304

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Irene………..It is truly amazing to me how you and Pierre deny that the Catholics and Protestants don't believe that Jesus preexisted his berth on earth and it is one of there main tenet teachings. Amazing simply amazing and then you two proceed to call me a lier also. Did i not say the trinity proves they do and that there belief in the (WORD) (WAS) God found in John 1:1 is proof of that , and it is the same proofs you preexistences use also to try to prove Jesus' preexistence. And yet you two call me a LIER.

peace and love……………………………gene

November 12, 2010 at 3:40 pm#224307

Participant

Pierre! I got an answer when I called again. The Lady could not answer my questing. She left word with the Priest and He will call me back. I really stunt Her. Most Catholics do not believe in the preexisting of Jesus, I know because we belonged to the Catholic Church all of our lives, until 1984-85, and Gene who was not a Catholic wants to tell me what we taught at the time? Since they do believe in the trinity, what I do think,but they do not teach it, unknown to them, that Jesus always existed, like WJ believes. That view I don't share. And that is a far cry of believing that Christ had a beginning. I also remember Her asking me, if that was after Christs being here on earth. So that might be a possibility too…We'll see…. I believe that Christ did have a beginning, He was the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 teach me that….but I will get back to you when the priest calls… that might be tomorrow…
That is not the same then the trinity, and I was right they do not teach the preexisting of Jesus. In fact I had to explain to the Lady what I was talking about….
Peace Irene

November 12, 2010 at 4:11 pm#224308

Participant

I looked up Gnostics on the Internet and this is what it says

Christ: The role of the redeemer in Gnostic belief is heavily debated at this time. Gnostics seem to have looked upon Christ as a revealer or liberator, rather than a savior or judge. His purpose was to spread knowledge which would free individuals from the Demiurge's control and allow them to return to their spiritual home with the Supreme God at death. Some Gnostic groups promoted Docetism, the belief that Christ was pure spirit and only had a phantom body; Jesus just appeared to be human to his followers. They reasoned that a true emissary from the Supreme God could not have been overcome by the evil of the world, and to have suffered and died. These beliefs were considered heresy by many non-Gnostic Christians. Some Gnostics believed that Christ's resurrection occurred at or before Jesus' death on the cross. They defined his resurrection as occurring when his spirit was liberated from his body. Many Gnostics believed that Jesus had both male and female disciples.

November 13, 2010 at 1:02 am#224363

GeneBalthrop

Participant

TO All………… Here is something a person wrote to me and I will pass it oN.

THE FOLLOWING THINGS I FIND INCREDIBLE.

That anyone could accept a doctrine that would have been abhorrent to all of the monotheistic Jews of Christ time.

That anyone would accept a doctrine who's prime doctrinal statement was imposed (by the threat of banishment or death) on the church by sun-worshiping priest of the Roman Emperor.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires non-scriptural words to describe it.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that causes a separation between God and Man or his chosen example for man.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires the Charater of God to change from non -temptable to temptable or not capable of sin to capable of sin.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires humanity to use a hybrid, and therefore a non-human, as an example.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that must be explained or defined by calling it a mystery.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that cannot be proven by honest Biblical interpretation processes.

That any rational person or especially a Bible Teacher would support a doctrine they can neither explain honestly through scripture or define outside of implication, innuendo and Mystery.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that is filled with Greek Philosophical thinking.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies and ignores hundreds of clear scriptures that define Jesus as a MAN, not an augmented or hybrid Man but simply human.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies the hope we recieve from seeing a normal human being raised from the dead.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies us the perfect example of a human being becoming one with GOD.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies us the fellowship of an older brother from which we can recieve advice based on his own totally normal experience as a human being made Just like us.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires that Mary, a Human women, could believe conceived anything other than a human being or that she was the mother of a GOD or morphed angel of some-kind.

That anyone would accept a doctrine that a pre-existent being with memories and experiences can lose all that and be born human infant> What happened to those experiences and memories? TOTALLY IRRATIONAL!

This was sent to me by my dear brother Martian.

peace and love to you all……………………………….gene

November 13, 2010 at 2:13 am#224375

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 13 2010,00:42)

Sorry once again
Adam

Adam

yea you right this is the way with men,who fallow religion views,

any one who fallows the scriptures and so look to the true interpretation ,by proving that it is so and show the related scripture ,because after all who are we to interpret the word of God ? this would mean that God depend en us for our intervention?? not so.

if someone thinks he as the spirit let him prove it by his understanding of the word of God and by is truthfulness to it.

wen ask we should always answer,not like some here always commenting but no scriptures produced those and the likes to me are people not versed in scriptures ,or as Christ says they have not come to the light because there deeds are no good,so they like darkness,

Pierre

November 13, 2010 at 2:27 am#224376

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 13 2010,08:40)

Irene
all religion are corporation,and any corporation has to have discipline ,and order,and above all ,policies that rule the church,
this what they believe and how to address it,how to see the bible ,and how not to see it,accept it as they believe in it,
soon power sits in and friends are made ,practices are done ,
and all things humans do ,(parties,coral,singing,diners,ect)

and so your are hooked to the practice and habits of that corporation ,and thats all you care about.

very wrong you have lost your search for truth.

Pierre

November 13, 2010 at 2:59 am#224379