Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,16:02)

1) Are you suggesting: God(HolySpirit) cannot be inside of Jesus and out side Jesus at the same time? (Psalm 139:7:12)

Hi Ed,

Is there already a topic about whether God's Holy Spirit is the being of God Himself?  If not, we should start one, because we are going off in many directions here.

Matthew 3:16-17 NIV
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

To me this clearly says the Spirit OF God alighted on Jesus.  The voice from heaven was from God.  John 16 tells us that the Spirit cannot speak on it's own, but only what it hears.  Does this sound like a limitation God Himself would have?

And all Psalm 139 says to me is that God is in heaven, but can see or hear, speak or give emotions to anyone anywhere………THROUGH HIS SPIRIT.

1. Ed, do you believe the Word is God's Spirit?
2. Do you believe God's Spirit is God Himself?

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

To All……….Here is smething that may help us all. Is has to do with the word (FROM) GOD . The Greek word is ….> ek, ex…> It is translated many time as OF and then as FROM also in the same text, and i believe that also can cause us some confusion when we read it in on place as of and then as from in the same text. Let me show you What i mean by this.

John 17:14-16………> I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them, because they are not (of or is it From) the world, even as I am not (of or is it from) the world.15….> I pray not that you should take them out of (of or is it from) the world, but that you should keep them from (from or is it of) the word. 16…..> They are not of (is it of or from) the world, even as I am not of (of or is it from) the world.

The point i am driving at is this if i say Jesus is of GOD that is one thing but if a say Jesus is from God that is another thing . So why is it It is the same word translated differently is used in both places so we have got to look for other words that will somehow give us the proper understanding of what is being said there . If we look at the word (EVEN) as I, that is the clue that ties and gives us the proper understanding of what was really being said there.

Jesus is no more (FROM GOD) the the DISCIPLES ARE ALSO. Becaue the same word is used in both places . But translators who were trinitarians forced the text to try to make it conform to there way of thinking and Making Jesus origins different the deciples. But Jesus said they were from God also.

Lets read verse 16 with the word from there. “THEY ARE NOT FROM THE WORLD, EVEN (EXACTLY AS) I AN NOT FROM THE WORLD.

Now Lets read it with the word of there. “THEY ARE NO OF THE WORLD, EVEN (EXACTLY AS) I AM NOT OF THE WORLD.

Do you see the trick that can be used if a translator wanted to and this is done in many other scriptures the exact same words are translated many different ways, and this gives the text a complete different meaning. So much of the confusion has to to with the GREEK TEXT and WHO was TRANSLATING it. IMO

peace and love to you all…………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,16:03)

Hi Mike, 2) Jesus was the one going from the City of Peace(Jerusalem) to the city of the moon(Jericho) to save the sinners of the world! It's pretty simple: consider Jesus lineage, God inside of Jesus could NOT die…

Sorry Ed,

That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Sometime we can discuss the parable of the Good Samaritan and what it means, but I'm trying to streamline this and stay on point.

What we want to find out is if the Word was Jesus or not.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,16:26)

Hi Mike, I don't care to argue religious philosophy; no interest. If ‘you want to’ discuss the meanings of “Bible verses”, then I'll participate in an open discussion with all; OK? Who you agree with or who agrees with you makes NO difference to me! (1John 4:4)

Ed,

This is info from a secular book that has nothing to do with the scriptures. It was taken from the diary of James Bruce, who traveled and reported on different cultures.

And what it says is that in REAL LIFE, the King of Abyssinia calls his spokesman “the WORD of the King”.

All this info does is tell you that someone's spokesman can be referred to as their “word”.

And for you to “cover your ears” and scream foul because I show you something from an historical account seems a little “close-minded”, don't you think?

Do you or do you not think “Word of God” is a title that Jesus was given?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,16:33)

God has a thought process, but God is NOT a thought process. God is a Spirit rather than just having one as you suggest!

So in Rev, when it mentions the seven spirits of God, it really means that we have seven Gods?

Or does it mean that the ONE spirit being known as Jehovah also has spirits at His command?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,17:01)

Hi Mike, Adding the indefinite article changes the meaning of the text.

No Ed,

OMITTING the “a” in the first place is what “changed the meaning of the text”.  It was ONLY omitted in John 1:1, right?  Not the many other scriptures.  Why?

Because omitting it made John 1:1 the trinitarians #1 proof text.  And you, like them, don't even seem to mind that it makes no sense whatsoever to say God was WITH God.

But I've showed you two other similar verse from Acts where the “a” is added in virtually every English translation.  Adding the “a” also changes the meaning there, but I don't hear you complaining about those two scriptures.  Why?  Because the original text was NOT talking about God Almighty…….just like in John 1:1.  It is only by omitting the “a” that we rewrite the scripture to mean something else.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Mike @ Nov. 01 2010,17:02)

Hi Ed, It is not I who “makes a distinction”, but John.  One “theos” is in John 1:1 is preceeded by the definite article.  The other is not.  As you mentioned in your previous post, the Greeks did not use an indefinite article.  It has to be inserted by English translators for it to make proper sense in English.  The NWT correctly inserts the indefinite article in John 1:1, while almost every other translation leaves it omitted so the text can sound like Jesus is God Himself.   John 1:1 NWT In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. In order to help you understand this, look at Acts 12:22, Acts 12:22 NIV They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.” The writer Luke does not add the indefinite article “A” here, as you know, because they don't use it in the Greek language. But virtually every major English translation inserts it for our understanding.  Why?  Because it is clear from the context that Luke did not mean “THE God”.  Why?  Because he didn't use the definite article “THE” in front of “god”.  Here's another: Acts 28:6 NIV The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god. Again, the word “A” is not there in the Greek text, but every major English translation inserts it for our understanding.  And again, they do so because we know Luke didn't mean “THE God”, for he didn't use the word “THE”. Now, if we can understand this simple rule of grammar in Acts 12:22 and 28:6, then why can't we understand it in John 1:1?  John uses the definite article in front of only one of the “gods” mentioned.  That means one was “THE God”, and the other was “a god”. Can you understand these scriptural examples?  Do you have any SCRIPTURAL reason whatsoever to disclaim what I have just showed you? peace and love, mike

Ed:

Quote

Mike Mike, I understand what you assert, but I don't agree at all. You re-packaging it over and over changes NOTHING! Present bible verses that support your position, so we can discuss them; OK?

They are listed above in blue print.  Discuss away.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,17:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,05:49) I asked: Quote (1)But God's SPIRIT cannot BECOME FLESH and remaing a Spirit at the same time, can it?   Ed answered: Quote 1) Why not? Are you not both flesh and Spirit? (Rom.8:16 / 1Cor.6:20) Yes I am.  But the “spirit” part of me is not “flesh” and the “flesh” part of me is not “spirit”.   mike Hi Mike, What does that have to do with anything? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

You claim that God's Spirit BECAME flesh. I claim that God filled His Son WITH His Holy Spirit.

Your scenario has a spirit actually becoming flesh, which would mean it's not spirit anymore.

Mine has a spirit filling someone who is flesh without itself BECOMING flesh.

Which one fits better into what we know about ourselves?

That was my point.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,17:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,05:49) Ed: Quote 2) John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his(God's) glory, the glory(of God) as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Ed, you are not thinking this through completely.  How does God have the glory of an only begotten FROM God? mike Hi Mike, Where does Jesus “Glory” come from? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

No, no, no, no, no…………

Answer MY question.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,17:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,05:49) Ed: Quote 3) It is not my Job to convince you, only to present “Bible Truth”! If what you speak really is “Bible Truth”, then you would EASILY convince me Ed.  But that is a lame “fallback” sentence to say after I've showed you the scriptural and logical flaws in your theory……don't you think? Hi Mike, So you agree “The Word” becoming flesh [[[ in ]]] Jesus is what produces God's Glory; right? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Not only is it ridiculous to come to that conclusion about what I think based on the prior discussion, but it is equally ridiculous to think Jesus had “God's glory”.  God shares His glory with no one……..not even His Son.  The Son has glory all his own.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,17:22)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,05:49) Ed: Quote 5) Became means: came to be; see earlier Post of mine. And see my answer to your earlier post.  No matter how you define “became”, it still adds up to “God BECAME flesh” in your theory. mike Hi Mike,         “God BECAME flesh in”   …theory. Now that you understand; great! God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed,

You don't have to quote every word I say, but don't take out the one word that makes my quote sound like I'm saying the opposite of what I'm saying, okay?

Now, please answer my point in the above post. Is that what you really think? That God became flesh?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 02 2010,10:10)

Let keep the questions short and not have so many in on post i will try not to also.

Gene,

Fair enough.  This is how I understand it so far:

Who is the Word in John 1?

Shimmer, Mike, Irene and Pierre:  The pre-existent Son of God.

Gene, Kerwin:  The actual words that God spoke.

Ed:  God's Holy Spirit.

Do I have this correct so far?

I would like to take these “choices” right down the line of scripture, starting with the Gospel of John.

The first hurdle for Gene, Kerwin, Shimmer and Ed is John 1:14a.  It says “the word became flesh”.

Note that it does NOT say “the Word came to be IN someone who was flesh”.

Now without a big speech, can you all just let me know if your “choice” can reasonably BECOME flesh?

Then we'll move on down the scriptural line.

peace and love,
mike

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

Did the Bible Students, Jehovah Witnesses, and related Christian sects suffer interpretation bias when translating Scripture into the New World Translation?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,10:51)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,16:02) 1) Are you suggesting: God(HolySpirit) cannot be inside of Jesus and out side Jesus at the same time? (Psalm 139:7:12) Hi Ed, Is there already a topic about whether God's Holy Spirit is the being of God Himself?  If not, we should start one, because we are going off in many directions here. Matthew 3:16-17 NIV 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” To me this clearly says the Spirit OF God alighted on Jesus.  The voice from heaven was from God.  John 16 tells us that the Spirit cannot speak on it's own, but only what it hears.  Does this sound like a limitation God Himself would have? And all Psalm 139 says to me is that God is in heaven, but can see or hear, speak or give emotions to anyone anywhere………THROUGH HIS SPIRIT. 1.  Ed, do you believe the Word is God's Spirit? 2.  Do you believe God's Spirit is God Himself? mike

Hi Mike,

These are the three issues of concern…

I have started this Thread…
Forum » BELIEVERS PLACE » Scripture & Biblical Doctrine »
HolySpirit is “GOD: The Father” of Jesus Christ!, YHVH GOD is one!

This Thread…
Forum » BELIEVERS PLACE » Truth or Tradition? »
“The Word” is really the “HolySpirit”, traditions of men say otherwise?  

And this Thread…
Forum » BELIEVERS PLACE » Scripture & Biblical Doctrine »
For those who ‘think’ “The Word” is a person, try to explain away psalm 138:2!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 02 2010,12:49)

Mike Boll, Did the Bible Students, Jehovah Witnesses, and related Christian sects suffer interpretation bias when translating Scripture into the New World Translation?

Why do you ask Kerwin? Is it because the actual Greek words are not matching up with your doctrine?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Hi Kerwin and Ed.

Will you answer the last post on page 964?

mike

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,10:51)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,16:02) 1) Are you suggesting: God(HolySpirit) cannot be inside of Jesus and out side Jesus at the same time? (Psalm 139:7:12) Hi Ed, Is there already a topic about whether God's Holy Spirit is the being of God Himself?  If not, we should start one, because we are going off in many directions here. Matthew 3:16-17 NIV 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” To me this clearly says the Spirit OF God alighted on Jesus.  The voice from heaven was from God.  John 16 tells us that the Spirit cannot speak on it's own, but only what it hears.  Does this sound like a limitation God Himself would have? And all Psalm 139 says to me is that God is in heaven, but can see or hear, speak or give emotions to anyone anywhere………THROUGH HIS SPIRIT. 1.  Ed, do you believe the Word is God's Spirit? 2.  Do you believe God's Spirit is God Himself? mike

Hi Mike,

I will fix your questions so I can answer them yes.
Otherwise I will be forced to answer No to most of your questions,
and you will have no clue as to why I keep answering No to all your questions!
You will probably never figure out it's only because of ‘your’ faulty wording! So now you know!

Ed:
1.  Do you believe “The Word” is the HolySpirit? …Yes!
2.  Do you believe God's Spirit is God The Father? …Yes!

God bless
Ed J

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,13:44)

Ed: 1. Do you believe “The Word” is the HolySpirit? …Yes! 2. Do you believe God's Spirit is God The Father? …Yes!

Very good Ed. We will be dealing with #1 after I get confirmation from Kerwin and Gene about their beliefs about who the Word is in John 1.

As for #2, are all seven of God's spirits God Himself? Do we have seven Gods?

mike

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,10:54)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,16:03) Hi Mike, 2) Jesus was the one going from the City of Peace(Jerusalem) to the city of the moon(Jericho) to save the sinners of the world! It's pretty simple: consider Jesus lineage, God inside of Jesus could NOT die… Sorry Ed, That makes no sense to me whatsoever.  Sometime we can discuss the parable of the Good Samaritan and what it means, but I'm trying to streamline this and stay on point. What we want to find out is if the Word was Jesus or not. mike

Hi Mike,

I will put it in words you can understand, why I insist on being technically accuracy.

[אדני] Âdônây in Hebrew means: “Lord” or “Owner” and is akin to
[Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs in Greek meaning “The Same”: “Lord” or “Owner”

        Adoni and Kurios both mean Lord or owner.
YHVH is “The Owner”(The LORD); Jesus is owner(Lord)

        YHVH is HolySpirit.
HolySpirit is “The Word”; Jesus equals word(I will explain how).

This PROOF really is not that difficult to understand… (Matt.18:16)
In English, the significant number (74) is attributed to “JOSHUA”=74 and “Messiah”=74; also
in the following: “JESUS”=74, “Cross”=74, “Gospel”=74, and even “English”=74.
“Jesus Christ” (74×32) also factors 74 in Greek Theomatically:
[Jesus] Ιησους=74(x12), [Christ] Χριστоς=74(x20).
[Son of Man] υιος τον ανθρωπου=74(x40).

“JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS”=373 (John 19:19)
This most popular phrase curiously adds up to the 74th prime number: 373.

John 1:1 was written in Greek.    
The word for “Word” in Greek is: [λογος] Lōgôs
and [λογος] has a “Theomatic” value of 373; and [ [373 is the 74th prime number] ]

“The Word” from the Greek is: [ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs
[ο λογος] has a “Theomatic” value of 443; and [ [443 is the 86th prime number] ].
Here is a chart for you to see the “Bible Truth” that I refer to! …

           English        ↔    Hebrew       ↔    Greek
     “Word of God”  ↔      “God”         ↔ “The Word”
“Word of God”(86) =   (אלהים](86]     = [ο λογος](86)th Prime Hō Lōgôs
         YHVH(63)      = ĔL-ō-Hêêm(63) = The Bible(63)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:03)

Ed, All this info does is tell you that someone's spokesman can be referred to as their “word”. mike

Hi Mike,

No; that's what you info tells you!
I consider it ‘squag’.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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