Preexistence

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2010,12:17)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2010,02:41) Lightenup, I believe your words are inadvertently in opposition to scripture since Colossians 1:19 declares that God is please to have his fullness dwell in Jesus not that Jesus is a part of that fullness. You should also consider scriptures like Ephesians 3:19 and Ephesians 4:13 which declare those that become totally mature in Christ will also have the full measure of God’s fullness.   From Galatians 5:22-24 and other scriptures, I would conclude that those who live by the Spirit at all times  have the full measure of God’s fullness as God speaks and acts through them with Jesus in the acting as the mediator.  This seems to clearly show the Spirit may be God’s fullness or at the least it facilitates that fullness.  In either case I would not conclude it is part of God’s fullness. Hi Kerwin, The fullness that I am talking about is a sense of completeness. Did you know that the church body is the fullness of Christ? Eph 1:22-23 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. NASU

In that case I would state that God fulfills in Christ those who persevere in their believe by the Holy Spirit. That is the roll of all 4 groups in the unity of the spirit that contains 1 God, 1 Lord, 1 group of believers, angels included, and is bound together by one spirit. Of those 4 groups only God is God.

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

I am not Ed J. and do not share his belief that the Holy Spirit is genetically the father of Jesus. I believe that God is the spiritual Father of Jesus and we too will be adopted as his children through belief in Jesus that will be shown by our obedience to all his teachings.

I assume you are speaking if Ed J.’s topic regarding his interpretation of Psalms where he strives to point out that the word is not a person. I can see that point since a ship is not a person despite people calling it a she.

This topic is directly related to the debate over preexistence and Gene attempt to answer your point by stressing the point that Scripture states God dwells in Jesus so I feel that this is the appropriate thread. Another point is that I see no reason to discuss the person-hood of the Holy Spirit at this time.

The Word did not shape change into Jesus in Mary’s womb because the Word is not a descendant of David. Instead the word inhabited Jesus and thus became God’s Spirit in Jesus and thus made Jesus the One and only non-adopted Spiritual Son of God.

[kerwin]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,11:49)

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 29 2010,15:10) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,16:05) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,13:40) Mike Boll, You wrote: Quote Like, if Jesus wasn't the Word of John 1:1 and 1:14, then WHO was it that became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?  WHO GENE?  WHO?  WHO?  WHO? The Word of God otherwise known as the Spirit of God which is why God is in Jesus just as Jesus testified. Are you disagreeing that God is in Jesus? Hi Kerwin, It seems that you me and Gene are the only ones who agree on this issue. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Hi Ed. (1)What part do you agree on ? (2)I thought you believed Jesus pre-existed ? Hi Shimmer, Thanks very much for your concern in these matters! 1) The Word of God otherwise known as the Spirit of God is God! 2) Yes, Shimmer; we all preexisted our flesh! 2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)                          “The Word” in us! John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit), because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning. Acts 12:24 But “The word” of God grew and multiplied. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Good point! I believe it is speaking of God's foreknowledge and not our actual existence but I could be wrong.

[gollamudi]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 28 2010,20:31)

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 28 2010,19:30) Hi Sis Karmarie, Thanks again for your loving response to frustrating post. Yes you may be right in saying “I have read too much”. That is the problem with me once I started reading Bible with critical aspect. If you prayers are answered by the unknown God I may be Ok soon. With love and peace Adam Hi Adam. The thing you need to look for is peace. You have it, how you speak, but you need to find peace with God. Understanding why things happened/happen as they do. I became angered at hell, being eternal so they said, I never believed in it, but I started reading too much, started thinking 'what if they are right ?' I said I would not worship or pray to a God like that. After much ignoring God I prayed, and said of my anger. I asked if it was true, I was shown it was not true. I was shown God is love. I was shown God is fair. To trust in Him, and I believe it. If theres any questions you have, ask, but ask the right person. If you ask the wrong one, you will get confused. I had another question with something I couldnt understand, I asked the right person and understood, finally. Adam God is not just in scripture, God is there in prayer,  extremly powerfull, when you trust him. Forget the internet, forget other writings, forget books, forget magazines, Pray. But realise it can take some time, as long as you dont give up, pray and pray and pray. I hope you will be ok Adam. Love and peace to you Adam.

Oh! my loving Sis. Those are the words that draw near to God. I really felt by such words of yours in my heart. You are right in saying “God is not there in the books but in prayer”. I think I got my right answer now for my inner struggle. I need to pray to God than search written stuff. I love brothers and sisters even in my arguments. I think I am having God's love in me as you sensed it too.

Thanks again for such comforting words of yours.
With love and peace
Adam

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2010,14:34)

And you seem to think that the one showing “good fruit” is the one who says the nicest things to others.  You just told JA that Gene had you believing against the scriptures for a moment on this pre-existence thing, yet you still support him because he “talks niceties to others”.  What do you think “wolf in sheep's clothing” implies?

And trust me, Gene doesnt use tactic, Gene isnt a 'wolf in sheeps clothing' Just because someone has good manners or kindness or a good spirit doesnt mean they are wolves. I'm only interested in what they are saying, that's all.

[shimmer]

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 29 2010,20:25)

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 28 2010,20:31) Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 28 2010,19:30) Hi Sis Karmarie, Thanks again for your loving response to frustrating post. Yes you may be right in saying “I have read too much”. That is the problem with me once I started reading Bible with critical aspect. If you prayers are answered by the unknown God I may be Ok soon. With love and peace Adam Hi Adam. The thing you need to look for is peace. You have it, how you speak, but you need to find peace with God. Understanding why things happened/happen as they do. I became angered at hell, being eternal so they said, I never believed in it, but I started reading too much, started thinking 'what if they are right ?' I said I would not worship or pray to a God like that. After much ignoring God I prayed, and said of my anger. I asked if it was true, I was shown it was not true. I was shown God is love. I was shown God is fair. To trust in Him, and I believe it. If theres any questions you have, ask, but ask the right person. If you ask the wrong one, you will get confused. I had another question with something I couldnt understand, I asked the right person and understood, finally. Adam God is not just in scripture, God is there in prayer,  extremly powerfull, when you trust him. Forget the internet, forget other writings, forget books, forget magazines, Pray. But realise it can take some time, as long as you dont give up, pray and pray and pray. I hope you will be ok Adam. Love and peace to you Adam. Oh! my loving Sis. Those are the words that draw near to God. I really felt by such words of yours in my heart. You are right in saying “God is not there in the books but in prayer”. I think I got my right answer now for my inner struggle. I need to pray to God than search written stuff. I love brothers and sisters even in my arguments. I think I am having God's love in me as you sensed it too. Thanks again for such comforting words of yours. With love and peace Adam

Adam, I believe you have too, I can feel God is loving you, you have made my day, God bless you Adam,

[seekingtruth]

Shimmer,
Correction needs to be given in love, but it needs to be given.

8Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Like you I found many “doctrines” incompatible for a God of love. An eternal hell would make God worse than hitler. This along with other inconsistency drove me to a critical time in my life where like Adam I began to doubt everything. It is during this time that I found I had no where else to go.

John 6:60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.” 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67″You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. 68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”

There are no other books like the Bible so by faith I hung in there and out of desperation I typed in “eternal hell” and found that the word “aion” gets its duration from the subject so hell was only for an age (long story short). I found this was true with other “doctrines” that bothered me, in the end it was my understanding that was the problem, the word as a whole is reliable.

Jesus did not go after those disciples who left and try to explain Himself, but the ones who stayed did so by faith. I believe this is a critical step in our growth and is necessary to take us to the next level of conforming to His image.

So what I'm saying is we should take care, no matter how much we want to comfort someone, to do what is necessary to build their faith, And while God is more than scriptures, they are the means by which we stay on that path of peace and know when we have heard from God.

Adam,
You said “I need to pray to God than search written stuff.” I am praying for you too, but I am concerned that you may abandon scriptures, without a guide we are left to our own devices and no one persons opinion is better than another. In my case I have seen many discrepancies disappear as I have continued to investigate scriptures based on the assumption they were true but doctrine may not be, don't let the enemy confuse you.

Good advice from Shimmer to hang in there.

My opinion – Wm

[gollamudi]

Thank you very much brother SeekingTruth a right name for avatar at right time. I hope God will satisfy my heart's desires in knowing Him.

Love and peace to you
Adam

[shimmer]

Hi Seekingtruth,  

I agree with you on correction. We do need that. I have had that.

With Adam, different things for different people. God will bring scripture to mind when it is needed. Adam I'm sure knows scripture. Different time for different things. Different things for different people. The time will come for scriptual understanding, but when one gets confused, time out is often needed, prayer is what draws us to God, at a time like this.

Good post though, good scriptures, glad to hear you were strong, that you found truth, after seekingtruth,

[shimmer]

Seekingtruth, the word 'aion', I also found that word, in the same way you did.
Youngs literal translation is good, it has the words translated correctly.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……….You seem to think GODS word different then he is , so i will ask you are your words any different the you are? No they are not. As fall as the word able to produce things in peoples lives I also diagree if they is waht you are indeed saying i might have your wrong on this , but ti appeared to you that is what you were saying. Now lets look at what a WORD really is.

A word is simply the (utterance) of the minds thinking, “So a man thinks so he (IS). A man or GOD'S word come from the same place as his thinking does and this is what drives his actions . So they contain great power to effect us all even if they come from other sources then ourselves because they cause us to think and can convince us to conform to others yes even GOD. The Word of GOD is very Powerful we are told more powerful then a sword can separate the bone from the marrow. We are washed by the washing of the WORD.

Yes Kerwin words are indeed powerful, because they transmit ones intellects and they are spirit, God's Words (ARE) GOD'S SPIRIT (intellect)his mind that is being transfered to us all and as we conform to that thinking GOD is being transfered into our minds and that is how GOD can and Will be in ALL and Through ALL this it will be through his WORDS. God's Words (ARE) SPIRIT (INTELLECT) and they give to us his life. They impute into us the way GOD thinks and we are being transformed by them to his way of thinking and by that thinking we are being transformed. Kerwin word are very powerful they are the engine that drives this world system they make up the prince of the power of the air they are what drive the whole earths systems they are the Representatives of billions of the inhabitants of the earth.
Don't think they have not power Brother they make up all the Power in existence So GOD thinks so HE is , and so a man thing So HE is they are one and the same as the source they come from. IMO

peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……Return to the core which is (Faith) in GOD. I do not think you have lost that brother , because the calling of God is without Revocation, Once I had an attitude about GOD that pictured Him as a cruel and mean GOD Who destroyed his own people, I reasoned how could a loving GOD cause his people to even eat there own Kids and bring on them such evil as that and at the same time portray himself as a ;loving and forgiving GOD, it just did no add up to me.

So what happened was GOD produced the same thing he felt in my own life, I had given my Son So many good things all his life His was my GOD given delight literally, and One day after i had gotten this attitude toward GOD , God caused my Son to do to Me What Israel did to Him. MY son whom i loved became so ungrateful and disrespectful to me it began to really bother my, and one day i ask him to mow the Lawn he refused and got into the new Pickup truck i had bought for him and drive of after filling it up from my gas pump, So i Got so angry with him i began to Curse him in every way possible saying How ungrateful he was and if i could have got my hands on him i would have really taught him a lesson , I mean i was exceedingly anger with him and as i was mowing the lawn cursing him, suddenly this soft voice came to me and said to me gene “why are you angry with your son” and i said because He is so ungrateful for all the thing i have given and done for Him and if he were here i would beat the tare out of him, and then this voice said to me “and should i have not been angry with Israel for all the evil they did to Me and there disrespect the showed to me”. And right them i said yes lord i see you were right in what you did to those thankful and disrespectful people. Then it all came together and i realized even my son who never acted disrespectful like that before was (caused) to act that way because GOD understood my own attitude about Him and was dealing with it. My Son came back and Showed me he was sorry for what he had done and i could see how GOD was teaching me through him how he felt about what Israel did to him.

This whole experience Changed my thinking about GOD and why He reacted so Cruel to them, it was because of all he did for them and they gave the honor and glory to Pagan Idols , it was a insult and showed very great disrespect for all the love and Kindness He gave to them, GOD indeed was Justified in what he did to Israel. God indeed can get Jealous and react violently at time.

My point Adam, is that sometime our perception of GOD and his actions can be distorted because we don't have all the facts involved. But GOD did not begin a work in you to not complete it brother. Keep seeking the truth brother you will find it, and hold on to the one you all ready have. We only see in part as if through a darkened Glass in something my brother. A time will come when every thing will be brought to true light.

peace and love to you and your Adam…………………………….gene

[shimmer]

Good post Gene, I apologise for mentioning you in my posts lately, ok, i'll stop it now !

[kerwin]

Gene,

My words are not me though they are an expression of my character and so reveal who I am. I possess my words but my words do not posses me.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin you no more posses you word them anyone does word are the expression of YOU thoughts uttered, they are who you are. Why do you think Jesus said, Not the which goes into the mouth defiles him but that which comes our of his mouth is what defiles Him, (his very Person), because they (words ) proceed out from the Heart they are expression of his heart uttered, and that is what defiles us it is our words expressed from our hearts. The same thing for GOD His words express who HE is also and Show us His heart and mind just like our do, there is NO difference , both man and GOD are revealed by there word. Therefore he says “My words are not your words and my thoughts are not your thoughts” , Notice how they are tied together, (thought and words) YOU ARE YOUR THOUGHTS AND SO IS GOD THE FATHER,. Both are expressed in WORDS. Coming from the mind GODS word are from his Mind and your and my woprds are from our minds . There your words (ARE) YOU and GODS WORD (ARE) HIM> The word was GOD and Is GOD and Will always Be with GOD , God and His words are one and the same being. IMO

peace and love …………………………………gene

[Lightenup]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,01:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2010,12:17) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2010,02:41) Lightenup, I believe your words are inadvertently in opposition to scripture since Colossians 1:19 declares that God is please to have his fullness dwell in Jesus not that Jesus is a part of that fullness. You should also consider scriptures like Ephesians 3:19 and Ephesians 4:13 which declare those that become totally mature in Christ will also have the full measure of God’s fullness.   From Galatians 5:22-24 and other scriptures, I would conclude that those who live by the Spirit at all times  have the full measure of God’s fullness as God speaks and acts through them with Jesus in the acting as the mediator.  This seems to clearly show the Spirit may be God’s fullness or at the least it facilitates that fullness.  In either case I would not conclude it is part of God’s fullness. Hi Kerwin, The fullness that I am talking about is a sense of completeness. Did you know that the church body is the fullness of Christ? Eph 1:22-23 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. NASU In that case I would state that God fulfills in Christ those who persevere in their believe by the Holy Spirit.  That is the roll of all 4 groups in the unity of the spirit that contains 1 God, 1 Lord, 1 group of believers, angels included, and is bound together by one spirit.  Of  those 4 groups only God is God.

Kerwin,
I do see God as perfect and complete apart from creation but not see the Father as complete apart from His Son and His Holy Spirit. God doesn't need creation to be God but as a personal God over something He would need the ability to communicate and redeem as necessary which He had and has in His Son and His Spirit.

[GeneBalthrop]

LU………I see GOD as what LIFE itself (IS), and we are being given live with him, the life He IS. He through SPIRIT (intellects) Which he is, imputes his Life into Us through His Words . Remember Jesus said the words i am telling you they (ARE) Spirit and (ARE) LIFE. God is Spirit and lives vicariously through His creation. He is both inside and outside His creation. Life is more of a Co-habit thing then and Individual thing. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 29 2010,16:13)

Mike………You ask who ,who, who,was the word of GOD? the answer is God the Father

Hi Gene,

So “God the Father” became flesh, dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten……..FROM THE FATHER?

Are you sure? When Jesus said the Father is “in heaven”, was he lying?

Was the Father killed by humans?

Can the Father be his own Son?

Gene, the bottom line is: If the “Word” IS the Father, then the Father became flesh. Is that what you think?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 29 2010,16:34)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2010,14:34) Shimmer: Quote Mike,  I'm not ok with whatever people believe, my point was 'when it comes to the end, to judgment day, does it matter ?' And I'm telling you that it DOES matter to God and His Son who will judge us.  What do you think Jesus was talking about when he said these words? 15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. 21″Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Does that sound like Jesus is going to be okay with a “does it really matter” attitude?  And you seem to think that the one showing “good fruit” is the one who says the nicest things to others.  You just told JA that Gene had you believing against the scriptures for a moment on this pre-existence thing, yet you still support him because he “talks niceties to others”.  What do you think “wolf in sheep's clothing” implies?  Paul adds to Jesus' point, 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. No one is going to try to teach you the trinity by shouting at you.  They will take you under their wing.  They will put their arm around your shoulders and politely and kindly mislead you.  Although they are speaking the Devil's words, they will do it soothingly and from a place of “perceived” righteousness.  The “good fruits” are not about how nice someone speaks, they are about how scripturally true someone speaks.  You can think and do what you want, and I will continue to try my best to have the strength and conviction that Paul had when he said: Hi Mike. I learnt all about the tactics people use way back, when I was debating with bod. Do you – know about tactics people use ?

I learn about more the tactics people use every day Shimmer. But no amount of tactics will ever replace scriptural truth. And that is my point: Why do you support Gene while he preaches a doctrine you KNOW to be unscriptural?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2010,16:23)

Mike, Some people say that they do not worship the Holy Spirit and I really wonder why.  Do they just worship a part of God, the part that does not include His Spirit?

This post is to Kathi………AND her spirit,

Probably for the same reason people don't worship God's toes.  Or chest hairs.  Or anything that is a part of the being of God.

If you worship God, you are already worshipping everything that the being of God encompasses.  You don't have to specifically say you worship God…..AND His Holy Spirit.

Just like I didn't have to start this post by listing your spirit as separate, because if I said this post was to Kathi, it would be understood that includes all things that are encompassed in the being of Kathi.

What part of God doesn't include His Spirit, btw?  

peace and love,
mike

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