Preexistence

[shimmer]

Hi Kerwin, fair enough.

[kerwin]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 29 2010,06:16)

Hi Kerwin, fair enough.

Trusting God to do right seems impossible to us humans but he is trustworthy.  In learning to trust him we become more mature in Christ. May you and I persevere in gaining knowledge of his trustworthiness.

[shimmer]

I agree Kerwin, trusting in Him is the important thing,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,16:36)

There you go again. When have I ever said the Holy Spirit is a separate entity from God the Father?

Hi Kathi,

I guess I just keep messing up with you.

Haven't you repeatedly said that if I don't worship the Father ALONG WITH HIS SPIRIT AND HIS SON, then I don't worship Him in “fullness”?

What does “ALONG WITH HIS SPIRIT” mean?

Kathi:

Quote

His Son is a distinct person from the Father but wasn't always. I believe that He was always within the Father until He was begotten as a distinct person coming forth as a part of God.

So God is like a “coral” and He “budded”? Where is the scripture?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,10:00)

Shimmer, You seem to miss my point which is that we are not to render the final judgment on our neighbor or to judge God's actions or word's. If God judges that it is just and merciful to eternally torment our neighbor then he is right and I just do not understand his righteousness.

Your are right Kerwin. It is not for us to say, “I don't want to be a Christian if God is going to torment people forever”. Regardless of the true meaning of “eternal/indefinite”, vengeance belongs to God.

I never thought too much about the “hell” aspect of things growing up. But I stayed away from the truth for most of my life because of a similar thought. I figured I wanted nothing to do with a God who let the suffering and wickedness of the world to continue.

But then I learned to trust in Jehovah with my whole heart, and to not lean on my own understanding.

Shimmer, what about those whose souls are underneath the alter? Those who were cruelly tortured, maimed and burned at the stake? Don't you think they deserve their “just rewards”? Shouldn't the people who tortured Jesus and his followers pay a price?

And is it our decision to determine that price? So what Kerwin is saying is that even if that “price” that God determines IS everlasting torment, who are we to say that it's “not right” or “fair” or “humane”?

My two cents,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 29 2010,02:50)

Gene, why do you bring 'trini' and 'preEx' into every post these days? This has nothing to do with preExistence of Jesus. It is off topic.

Isn't this the “Pre-existence” thread?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Bump for Gene

Like, if Jesus wasn't the Word of John 1:1 and 1:14, then WHO was it that became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?  WHO GENE?  WHO?  WHO?  WHO?

John 1:14-17 NWT
14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”) 16 For we all received from out of his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness. 17 Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ.

Let's break this down Gene.

14.  This “Word” became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten son from a father.  And he was full of undeserved kindness.

15.  John the Baptist bore witness about this “Word”, saying, “he existed before me”.

16.  We all received undeserved kindness out of this “Word's” fullness.

17.  The Law was given through Moses, but this undeserved kindness was given through JESUS CHRIST.

I know you can connect the dots Gene.  Just follow the words “undeserved kindness” and see who they lead you to.

peace and love,
mike

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

You wrote:

Quote

Like, if Jesus wasn't the Word of John 1:1 and 1:14, then WHO was it that became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father? WHO GENE? WHO? WHO? WHO?

The Word of God otherwise known as the Spirit of God which is why God is in Jesus just as Jesus testified.

Are you disagreeing that God is in Jesus?

[mikeboll64]

There are many things that end up being illogical about that belief Kerwin.  Ed and I are SLOWLY, POINT BY POINT discussing them in his thread.  Come join us if you'd like.

But just quickly, what you say means the Spirit of God both impregnated Mary AND became Mary's son in the flesh.  For scripture doesn't say “the Word came to BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS FLESH”, but that “the Word BECAME FLESH”.  Also, the Holy Spirit is not a separate entity from God, so what you're saying is that God Himself became flesh and was killed by puny humans, but then raised Himself from the dead.

There's much more, but let's discuss it on Ed's thread, okay?

mike

[Ed J]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,13:40)

Mike Boll, You wrote: Quote Like, if Jesus wasn't the Word of John 1:1 and 1:14, then WHO was it that became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?  WHO GENE?  WHO?  WHO?  WHO? The Word of God otherwise known as the Spirit of God which is why God is in Jesus just as Jesus testified. Are you disagreeing that God is in Jesus?

Hi Kerwin,

It seems that you me and Gene are the only ones who agree on this issue.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2010,15:27)

Shimmer, what about those whose souls are underneath the alter?  Those who were cruelly tortured, maimed and burned at the stake?  Don't you think they deserve their “just rewards”?  Shouldn't the people who tortured Jesus and his followers pay a price? And is it our decision to determine that price?  So what Kerwin is saying is that even if that “price” that God determines IS everlasting torment, who are we to say that it's “not right” or “fair” or “humane”?

Mike, I agree with t8 on this, pay a price yes, punishment whatever it is, yes.
Eternal no.
God isnt some monster.  Which part are you confused about ? The eternal price is death. I would argue you with this, but not Kerwin, for reasons.

[shimmer]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,16:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,13:40) Mike Boll, You wrote: Quote Like, if Jesus wasn't the Word of John 1:1 and 1:14, then WHO was it that became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?  WHO GENE?  WHO?  WHO?  WHO? The Word of God otherwise known as the Spirit of God which is why God is in Jesus just as Jesus testified. Are you disagreeing that God is in Jesus? Hi Kerwin, It seems that you me and Gene are the only ones who agree on this issue. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed. What part do you agree on ?

I thought you believed Jesus pre-existed ?

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2010,13:34)

Bump for Gene Like, if Jesus wasn't the Word of John 1:1 and 1:14, then WHO was it that became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?  WHO GENE?  WHO?  WHO?  WHO? John 1:14-17 NWT 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”) 16 For we all received from out of his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness. 17 Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. Let's break this down Gene. 14.  This “Word” became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten son from a father.  And he was full of undeserved kindness. 15.  John the Baptist bore witness about this “Word”, saying, “he existed before me”. 16.  We all received undeserved kindness out of this “Word's” fullness. 17.  The Law was given through Moses, but this undeserved kindness was given through JESUS CHRIST. I know you can connect the dots Gene.  Just follow the words “undeserved kindness” and see who they lead you to. peace and love, mike

Mike………You ask who ,who, who,was the word of GOD? the answer is God the Father , God the Father , God the Father, was ,IN, IN, IN, IN Jesus. He was co-habiting IN, IN, IN, IN, Jesus' Body with Him which He considered as a temple. Why do you think Thomas said My Lord and, and, and, and, MY GOD. Has the light turned on yet Mike? God was (TRULY , TRULY ,TRULY) IN , IN IN, IN JESUS. remember Jesus said , “THE FATHER IN, IN, IN, IN, ME (HE, HE, HE, HE, DOTH THE WORKS”,

Go figure this out Mike……> GUESS WHO WAS THE ONE SPEAKING THROUGH. THROUGH, THROUGH, JESUS' MOUTH and SAID. “DESTROY THIS (TEMPLE) AND IN THREE DAYS, I, I, I, I, SHALL RAISE IT UP. Mike that was really, really, really, really, God the Father first Person speaking (through Jesus' mouth. The FATHER WE TRULY IN, IN, IN, IN,JESUS.

Mike i don't like you speaking down to me i have told you that twice before I am not a child nor a novice to the word of GOD.

peace and love…………………………gene

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2010,20:58)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,16:36) There you go again.  When have I ever said the Holy Spirit is a separate entity from God the Father? Hi Kathi, I guess I just keep messing up with you. Haven't you repeatedly said that if I don't worship the Father ALONG WITH HIS SPIRIT AND HIS SON, then I don't worship Him in “fullness”? What does “ALONG WITH HIS SPIRIT” mean? Kathi: Quote His Son is a distinct person from the Father but wasn't always.  I believe that He was always within the Father until He was begotten as a distinct person coming forth as a part of God. So God is like a “coral” and He “budded”?  Where is the scripture? mike

Mike,
Some people say that they do not worship the Holy Spirit and I really wonder why. Do they just worship a part of God, the part that does not include His Spirit? How would you do that anyway?

Is God like a coral…geeesh!

God is a Father who has a Son exactly like His essence and is His image, and has all the same things as the Father does. Do you not know that?

Heb 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NASU

John 16:15
15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
NASU

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,21:46)

Does this mean that people like Noah, Moses, Abraham, etc, were only worshiping God in part?  (I don't think they were including the Son in their worship of God.)

Actually David,
I do believe that the Son appeared to Abraham and Moses and they recognized Him as God. Moses wrote about Him and called Him Jehovah in His writings. I don't know about Noah.

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2010,14:34)

Shimmer: Quote Mike,  I'm not ok with whatever people believe, my point was 'when it comes to the end, to judgment day, does it matter ?' And I'm telling you that it DOES matter to God and His Son who will judge us.  What do you think Jesus was talking about when he said these words? 15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. 21″Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Does that sound like Jesus is going to be okay with a “does it really matter” attitude?  And you seem to think that the one showing “good fruit” is the one who says the nicest things to others.  You just told JA that Gene had you believing against the scriptures for a moment on this pre-existence thing, yet you still support him because he “talks niceties to others”.  What do you think “wolf in sheep's clothing” implies?  Paul adds to Jesus' point, 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. No one is going to try to teach you the trinity by shouting at you.  They will take you under their wing.  They will put their arm around your shoulders and politely and kindly mislead you.  Although they are speaking the Devil's words, they will do it soothingly and from a place of “perceived” righteousness.  The “good fruits” are not about how nice someone speaks, they are about how scripturally true someone speaks.  You can think and do what you want, and I will continue to try my best to have the strength and conviction that Paul had when he said:

Hi Mike. I learnt all about the tactics people use way back, when I was debating with bod. Do you – know about tactics people use ?

[Ed J]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 29 2010,15:10)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,16:05) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,13:40) Mike Boll, You wrote: Quote Like, if Jesus wasn't the Word of John 1:1 and 1:14, then WHO was it that became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?  WHO GENE?  WHO?  WHO?  WHO? The Word of God otherwise known as the Spirit of God which is why God is in Jesus just as Jesus testified. Are you disagreeing that God is in Jesus? Hi Kerwin, It seems that you me and Gene are the only ones who agree on this issue. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Hi Ed. (1)What part do you agree on ? (2)I thought you believed Jesus pre-existed ?

Hi Shimmer,

Thanks very much for your concern in these matters!

1) The Word of God otherwise known as the Spirit of God is God!

2) Yes, Shimmer; we all preexisted our flesh!

2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)

                         “The Word” in us!

John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.
Acts 12:24 But “The word” of God grew and multiplied.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 28 2010,01:37)

LU, You are right in your last post. Jesus was indeed part of God before he was created. But then so was EVERYTHING until tney were created. And once again, the great, ''All does not mean 'all' '' point has to be made… Not ''All, but excepting that through which the 'all' was created,  the Holy Spirit of God'' God created 'all' through His Holy Spirit, but It being 'part' of Him, it need not be continually said. It will be eternally assumed, so that no one comes to devise the Holy Spirit as a seperate 'God' and presume to Worship it. And, for this same reason also, I state that 'Jesus' was not exposed as 'the Angel of God' in the OT, namely, so the people, the Hebrews, the Israelites, the Jews…, would not come to see the 'Angel of God' as a God, and presume to Worship him. But, and also…Mike is right: Scriptures tell us to:                'Worship the Father'                                but                    'Praise the Son'. LU, if you had been in former days, you would have sought to worship Angels, strictly against the command of God. Today, LU, Jesus is 'Man'. “For [he is] Man, not God” LU, you seek to Worship a Man, even a Man in the spirit. But even saying that, I have told you before that what you are doing is not 'Worship' in any case. So be comforted that you have not sinned in act, only in thoughtful desire (ok, Scriptures says it's the samething but can be forgiven). So, stop calling it 'Worship' and you will go through. Call it, 'Praising' Call it, 'Glorifying' Call it, 'Honoring' Call it, 'Being in Obeisance' to the Father And the Son. 'Praise the Son, Worship [only] God'.

JA,

Quote

'Praise the Son, Worship [only] God'.

I will worship God, 'the Word' and the One the Word was with in the beginning.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASU

We will just have to disagree on this. I do not think that everything was a part of God. If that were true then everything would be eternal and there would be nothing created and all would be God because God begets one like Himself, not less than Himself.

And I certainly do not agree that satan was the first created angel and the only begotten Son of God the second, or later created. The Son created the angel and has the potential to appear as an angel but is not a created angel.

Also, I have seen you to be confused about the sons of God. The only begotten Son of God was not a Son by GRACE but by nature. All other 'sons' are either sons to their creator by merely being created or they are sons by grace. There is only one that is a son by nature.

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 29 2010,16:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2010,13:34) Bump for Gene Like, if Jesus wasn't the Word of John 1:1 and 1:14, then WHO was it that became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?  WHO GENE?  WHO?  WHO?  WHO? John 1:14-17 NWT 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”) 16 For we all received from out of his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness. 17 Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. Let's break this down Gene. 14.  This “Word” became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten son from a father.  And he was full of undeserved kindness. 15.  John the Baptist bore witness about this “Word”, saying, “he existed before me”. 16.  We all received undeserved kindness out of this “Word's” fullness. 17.  The Law was given through Moses, but this undeserved kindness was given through JESUS CHRIST. I know you can connect the dots Gene.  Just follow the words “undeserved kindness” and see who they lead you to. peace and love, mike Mike………You ask who ,who, who,was the word of GOD? the answer is God the Father , God the Father , God the Father, was ,IN, IN, IN, IN Jesus. He was co-habiting IN, IN, IN, IN, Jesus' Body with Him which He considered as a temple.  Why do you think Thomas said My Lord and, and, and, and, MY GOD. Has the light turned on yet Mike? God was (TRULY , TRULY ,TRULY) IN , IN IN, IN JESUS. remember Jesus said ,  “THE FATHER IN, IN, IN, IN, ME (HE, HE, HE, HE, DOTH THE WORKS”, Go figure this out Mike……> GUESS WHO WAS THE ONE SPEAKING THROUGH. THROUGH, THROUGH,  JESUS' MOUTH and SAID. “DESTROY THIS (TEMPLE) AND IN THREE DAYS, I, I, I, I, SHALL RAISE IT UP. Mike that was really, really, really, really, God the Father first Person speaking (through Jesus' mouth.  The FATHER WE TRULY IN, IN, IN, IN,JESUS. Mike i don't like you speaking down to me i have told you that twice before I am not a child nor a novice to the word of GOD. peace and love…………………………gene

Hi Gene,

Try to stay calm, Gene; sometimes it takes people a while to get it.

Matt.13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should
be converted, and should heal them. (Hebrews 3:15)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2010,02:41)

Lightenup, I believe your words are inadvertently in opposition to scripture since Colossians 1:19 declares that God is please to have his fullness dwell in Jesus not that Jesus is a part of that fullness. You should also consider scriptures like Ephesians 3:19 and Ephesians 4:13 which declare those that become totally mature in Christ will also have the full measure of God’s fullness.   From Galatians 5:22-24 and other scriptures, I would conclude that those who live by the Spirit at all times  have the full measure of God’s fullness as God speaks and acts through them with Jesus in the acting as the mediator.  This seems to clearly show the Spirit may be God’s fullness or at the least it facilitates that fullness.  In either case I would not conclude it is part of God’s fullness.

Hi Kerwin,
The fullness that I am talking about is a sense of completeness.

Did you know that the church body is the fullness of Christ?

Eph 1:22-23
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
NASU

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