Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

To All…………..If you think about it you can clearly see Johns Point in saying what he said concerning the Spirit (intellect) of ANTICHRIST, it is this thinking that separates Jesus from our own exact identity, it diminishes the Work of GOD in MANKIND , what the spirit of Antichrist say is Jesus was not (really) like we are (in) every way he was different , it also say GOD disguised him as a human being to make us think he was really a Human being when in fact he was a Morphed or Incarnated being of some Kind . It raises Jesus to a position as a GOD is and this LIE causes people to even worship him and give him the credit of all creation and elevates him above all things worshiped in heaven and earth.

Now all of you who really want to understand this go read 2 Ths 2, about the man of Sin. How it is a LIE about someone who (IS) sitting in the Temple of GOD (Jesus is the only one sitting there) and Being displayed as a GOD and who is worshiped above all who are called god. The Man of SIN is not a real person it is an false IMAGE or LIE about Jesus, who has been turned from a pure human being into a god and worshiped above all, this false (IMAGE) Created by false religion is the MAN of SIN, and when Jesus returns his first act will be to Abolish that LIE. There is NO REAL MAN OF SIN it is a FALSE IMAGE of JESUS. The ones who teach and practice this deception are the Preexistences and Trinitarians . Preexistences say they are not Trinitarians but they BOTH Preach the Preexistence of JESUS in one form or another, there over all teaching both separate Jesus from our likeness and our Exact Identity with HIM, They tare down the Work of GOD in our perfect example to Us, Jesus, our fellow human Brother.

peace and love to you all………………………………………….gene

[gollamudi]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 26 2010,22:22)

Adam, what are you saying ? What made you feel like this ? (karmarie

Hi Sis Karmarie,
Thanks for your concern about me. Infact I have been doing lot of research on Christian scriptures these days. I noticed lot of human bias and contradictions in the Bible both in O.T and N.T. It can not be an inspired book authorized by God. It seems to me as a mere human book like any other religious book with full bias towards regional and racism. Christianity made it universal religion which Jesus himself never meant that way. I still believe there may be a true God in this universe but He could not have commissioned this so called contradictory religion.

I love all brothers and sisters who care for me in this forum especially brothers like Gene, Kerwin, Nick, T8 etc. and Sisters like Mandy, Irene, you and others. This is the forum that led me to unlearn my old inhibitions and helped me to be frank in my research.

Love and peace to you and others
Adam

[mikeboll64]

Although Irene, myself and many others have been posting many scriptures about the pre-existence of Jesus, JA and Irene got the ball rolling again, and I'm going to continue it.

John 1:1 NIV
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

In Rev 19, we find out this “Word” is also known as “King of kings, and Lord of lords”.  Now who else BECAME flesh and had the glory of an only begotten son from the Father and is known as “King of kings and Lord of lords”?

Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
      though you are small among the clans of Judah,
      out of you will come for me
      one who will be ruler over Israel,
      whose origins are from of old,
      from ancient times. “

Matthew confirms that this is a prophecy about Jesus, yet Micah, writing many years before Jesus came as flesh, said this coming ruler was from ancient times.  Note for Gene:  Micah did NOT say the “thought of this ruler in God's head” was from ancient times.

John 17:5 NRSV
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

Again, this does NOT say “the thought of Jesus in God's mind” had glory.  It CLEARLY says that the person of Jesus had glory in God's presence before the world existed.

Phil 2:6-7 NIV
6Who, being in the form of God,
     did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
     taking the form of a servant,
     being made in human likeness.

Now Gene and company claim that as a human, others saw God's nature in him, and that explains the “being in the nature/form of God” part.  But how does someone who already IS human be made in the likeness of a human?

John 6:62 NIV
62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

Where is it that the disciples see Jesus “ASCEND” to?  Jesus says he was there before.

Revelation 22:16 NIV
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

We all agree that Jesus is the offspring of David…..according to the flesh, for Paul says:

3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,

What did Paul mean by “as to his HUMAN nature”?  And how could Jesus be “the Root” of David?  Jesus explains it very well to some Pharisees who were also clueless to his pre-existence:

Matthew 22:41-46 NIV
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
     “The son of David,” they replied.
43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
     “Sit at my right hand
  until I put your enemies
     under your feet.” ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Yep, like the Pharisees, Gene and company don't understand.  But unlike the Pharisees, they don't remain silent in their confusion, but instead start twisting the scriptures in every non-sensical way you could imagine.

Hebrews 1:2 NIV
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

How could God have made the universe through His Son, if His Son didn't even exist until thousands of years later?  And no Gene, it doesn't say God made the universe through the thought of His future Son in His mind.

This is just a few of the many scriptures that speak of the pre-existence of Jesus.  He is the “firstborn of all creation”.  He is “the beginning of the creation by God”.  All things visible and invisible were created through him.

All you have to do is open your eyes.  Take off the blinders.  Abandon this belief you have imagined that Jesus had to have been EXACTLY LIKE US in order for us to follow him.  Because as Gene has finally and reluctantly admitted, he has not done one single thing in his entire life to follow the teachings of Jesus that he couldn't have done if Jesus pre-existed.

Come on guys!  He had a human mother and God Almighty as a Father – how in earth could he have been EXACTLY LIKE US?  

I pray for peace and love and understanding for each and every one of you,

mike

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 27 2010,01:07)

Adam………..I agree with what JA said there to a point. But we are told to “GROW IN GRACE (AND) KNOWLEDGE”,  and you also know this already, Just don't get discourage by all this debate going on here use what GOD has given you brother to bring Clarity to yourself and others here to.  I am not worried about you losing the FAITH Brother because the SPIRIT of GOD which was given You will guide you into (ALL) truth. You have no need of anyone Here to teach you anything, because the Spirit itself will. Continue to Trust GOD and seek revelation from him and that will make the words written in scripture clearer to you and us. Remember GOD calling is without revocation . You have a very good way of explaining scripture views to others, use it brother, why should any of us get discouraged we have put our hand to the plow and are plowing until the day comes when we shall recieve our rewards for our works in the vineyard of the LORD, no matter how little we have done we will all recieve the same reward. peace and love to you and yours Adam………………………………….gene

Hi brothers Gene and JA,
I really appreciate your love and concern on me. I am not losing my faith that way. I still have faith in true God who is leading me into light. But I find lot of contradictions in our Bible right from Genesis to Revelation. The different books in our Bible were written by different people to suit their theology and their community. They can not be reconcilled in any single doctrine or concept on God and religion. They are divergent and polyistic approach towards understanding of God in their own way. For example the two creation stories in Genesis can not be accepted as proof for true scientific nature of this universe. Similarly the Ten commandments of Torah can not be universalized to all nations and races. Please see the example of “do not kill” it was meant not to kill Isrealite's fellow brothern but not any Gentiles whom God himself ordered to distroy utterly including the innocent Babes who were suckling. The people who are most blessed by God were the worst example to us in this third millenium including father of nations Abraham, man according to God's own heart David etc. I can go on and on.

Sorry for such allegation on the Bible. These are some of my mental arguments going on in my mind.

Hope I may find peace
With love and peace to you
Adam

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 27 2010,15:11)

Mike ……….. What makes you think Sampson was any different then we are , It was GOD that Gave him that Strength not himself.

And has God given you an equal amount of strength Gene?  If not, then how in the world can you learn anything from Samson's story?  If you can't be EXACTLY LIKE HIM, then you aren't able to learn anything from him, right?

Gene:

Quote

So to you, you can never come to the full STATURE of Christ right, because Jesus is so much superior

No……..and yes.  Yes, Jesus is, was, and always will be superior to me.  And no, I will never come to have the exact same stature as Christ has acheived.  But my goal is to follow his examples to the best of my ability, be judged worthy by him and therefore acceptable to his God, and be made LIKE him – complete with immortality.  But I will NEVER be the only begotten Son of God, nor will I ever be King of kings and Lord of lords.

Gene:

Quote

That is the results of Preexistences and Trinitarians the off Spring of the Gnostic's that drives a wedge between Jesus and ourselves, it distorts our exact identity with Him.

I see the results of people who want their imagined version of the scriptures to be the real thing so badly that they are willing to actually ignore plain scriptures in order to acheive that goal.  I see it all the time with Kathi and her never-ending “wish” for Jesus to hold a higher position than what is actually taught in scripture.  She LOVES Jesus SO MUCH that she “wills” him to actually BE the God she worships.  And she makes all kinds of non-sensical statements to support her own imagined “reality”.

You can easily see this with Kathi from the outside looking in……can't you Gene?  But you are so entranced in your own personal “wish” that you are oblivious to the fact that you do the same thing with pre-existence.  I mean, really Gene…….does it make logical sense to you that one of God's spoken words became flesh and was His only begotten Son?  Do you hear yourself when you say that Jesus returned to a “foreordained” glory that God had waiting for him when Jesus cleary say “the glory I HAD“?  Do you really expect anyone to comprehend your understanding that “the thought of Jesus in God's head” was what was “in the presence of God before the creation of the world”? And will you ever be able to sensibly explain how someone who already IS a human being can empty himself and be made in the likeness of a human being?

Maybe you should step back from it for a minute. Re-read some of the nonsensical things you've posted in defense of your “wish”. It's easier to see things more clearly from the outside looking in sometimes.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 27 2010,16:28)

Sorry for such allegation on the Bible. These are some of my mental arguments going on in my mind.

Hi Adam,

I have had my own doubts throughout my life.  And I understand the turmoil your brain is going through.  When I once asked a God I never believed in for help, and He answered me with the help I needed, I thought I owed it to Him to at least read His Book.  

I closed my eyes, flipped open a page in the old Bible my little sister had given me years before but I never touched, and pointed with my finger.  When I opened my eyes I read this:

Proverbs 3:5 NWT
5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.

It immediately made sense to me, and I at once KNEW that He was real, but to this day I have to recite that verse to myself on occasion.  Many of us sometimes have doubts about certain things.  But we are not made to understand it all, regardless of what the top scientific minds of today think.

Anyway, you have crossed a line here, and are now blaspheming against the Holy Word of God, IMO.  I'm sure many of us would love to chat this out with you, but could you start a thread in the skeptics place about it?

This is the believers place, and we here believe the scriptures to be the inspired word of God, and find no contradictions………..only misunderstandings on our own part.

peace and love,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam………Remember there are several thing going on on different level, God was dealing with Israel a certain way and with the Gentiles in another way , but his over all plan was being worked out here, One thing to keep in mind is God original intents He wanted man to learn what evil and good involved and this lead to a lots of thing that all had to go through in this life. Yes you can zero in on some things and see what seems and is injustices in scriptures, but we must all remember God was not shielding us from Evil exposure because he wanted us to experience it and grow to hate evil, and love good, He dealt harshly with the gentiles at time but even more harshly with Israel at times. While David was a man after GOD own Heart he still was called by GOD a bloody man and GOD would not let him build the temple he wanted to, So while God did allow these discrepancies at times in history, i believe it was necessary for those thing to take place in order for us all to see and experience evil to its full. Adam, God told Israel “of them that KILL the (Murderer) shall surely be put to death. To Kill in war or self-defense is not the Same as Murder but many think all Killing is a sin and it is, unless it is justified, but murder is always wrong because it is nearly always involving premeditation of some kind. This whole world have been in travail Adam unto this very day and still is it has not yet been delivered from the bondage of corruption it is locked into , but we are hopeful that the time is near when it will be brother.

peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………………..gene

[Lightenup]

Mike,
You have nerve!

Quote

I see the results of people who want their imagined version of the scriptures to be the real thing so badly that they are willing to actually ignore plain scriptures in order to acheive that goal. I see it all the time with Kathi and her never-ending “wish” for Jesus to hold a higher position than what is actually taught in scripture. She LOVES Jesus SO MUCH that she “wills” him to actually BE the God she worships. And she makes all kinds of non-sensical statements to support her own imagined “reality”.

He is a part of the God I worship. And if it were my imagination and not Spirit led, why do so many agree with me that I can find Church Father's quotes saying the same thing and I don't even find them till after I have written them??? Think Mike! I am not so alone and 'out there' as you SLANDER me to be.

Were you wishing that I didn't read that?

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 27 2010,17:13)

Adam………Remember there are several thing going on on different level, God was dealing with Israel a certain way and with the Gentiles in another way , but his over all plan was being worked out here,  One thing to keep in mind is God original intents He wanted man to learn what evil and good involved and this lead to a lots of thing that all had to go through in this life. Yes you can zero in on some things and see what seems and is injustices in scriptures, but we must all remember God was not shielding us from Evil exposure because he wanted us to experience it and grow to hate evil, and love good,  He dealt harshly with the gentiles at time but even more harshly with Israel at times. While David was a man after GOD own Heart he still was called by GOD a bloody man and GOD would not let him build the temple he wanted to, So while God did allow these discrepancies at times in history, i believe it was necessary for those thing to take place in order for us all to see and experience evil to its full.  Adam,  God told Israel “of them that KILL the (Murderer) shall surely be put to death. To Kill in war or self-defense is not the Same as Murder but many think all Killing is a sin and it is, unless it is justified, but murder is always wrong because it is nearly always involving premeditation of some kind.  This whole world have been in travail Adam unto this very day and still is it has not yet been delivered from the bondage of corruption it is locked into , but we are hopeful that the time is near when it will be brother.   peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………………..gene

Thank you very much brother Gene, for such clarification on my doubts. I am still open to receive any light on scriptures. Those were only my questions raised in my mind. But one thing I can tell you that I am free from all bias on any one doctrine of Christianity. I am ready to learn any new revelation. I thank God for such open mind.

Love and peace to you
Adam

[shimmer]

Quote (Baker @ Oct. 27 2010,16:39)

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 26 2010,22:25) All, what is the big deal ? Why debate over such things, that is why I said, faith is more important than what you all say and judge of what a person thinks and how they see things, cant you see a good spirit in a person ? Who are you all to judge ? shimmer, you got that one wrong.  t8 and Mike and myself go by Scriptures plainly written.  When it says that Jesus came down from Heaven, it means that He did.  Gene has called us Anti-Christ etc.  and you are saying that we are judging?  Irene

Hi Irene, I hope your Grand Daughter is ok.

From what I have seen, Gene has been called an antichrist or a satan, but himself uses the words “antichrist teachings' he adds the word teachings of beliefs, without calling the person themself antichrist, maybe I missed it, but that's what I have seen.

I believe Gene has a good spirit. I worry that all of this will get at him, so I worry more about a persons faith. Though I believe Gene is strong enough.

[shimmer]

Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 27 2010,10:59)

Ah Shimmer, that's the hard part. It is personal choice based on your belief of what is the true light. Gene may be praising a poster for their good post. That is easy to do and a good way to get others on his side by 'praising' the work of others. But why did Gene not post these things himself? PreExistence of Christ is absolutely and plainly spoken of in Scriptures, yet Gene says ''not so, and anyone who believes that he preExisted is an 'AntiChrist' ''. Scriptures says, 'Anyone who believes that Jesus HAS COME in the flesh will be saved'. 'Has Come'…does that seem like simply 'Born'? From WHERE is he to come from? From Heaven, Scripture tells us, the Spirit from Heaven. And then Jesus himself say, 'What if you see me return to where I once was?' And where might that be? And did 'they' see him return? Yes, they stood and watched as he ascended into the clouds (Into the Heavenly dimensions). What Gene is patently avoiding is the FACT that Jesus 'EMPTIED himself of his DIVINE nature to become man. Any one who has honesty in their belief would not dismiss clear teachings because it contradicts their belief. If their belief is right then they can show with honest to goodness verbatim Scriptural verses, or the understanding thereof. So Shimmer, it is all hard for you. As for choice, you need to get down on it and work it out for yourself.

Hi JA, thanks,

I always believed Jesus pre-existed, it was never an issue for me. I never even thought about it. But then I heard people who I believe have good spirits here saying that is a wrong belief, after some of the negative things I have experienced, I start to wonder, as it says 'By their fruits you will know them', but I know this is just one site, theres not many people on here, I shouldnt judge or change my beliefs just on that.

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2010,17:19)

Amen to that Irene.  All we've done is clearly point out scriptures while Gene ignores or twists them and calls us “antichrists” and “descendents of gnostics”.  Yet Tim Kraft and Shimmer believe Gene to be the “builder upper” here.    And Shimmer judges us often for debating scriptures, yet says, “Who are you to judge?”

Mike,  Look at Gene, look at Kerwin, look at Marty, etc, what do they do to weaken someones faith ? Iv experienced nothing bad with them, but I have with one or two others here, Who would I rather be ? I would rather be like (Gene, Kerwin, Marty etc), I do not want to pull people down, we have to answer to GOD for things like that. ONE persons faith is important to God. The number one and number two commands are to love. God is love. If I have wronged someone I want to apologise, and I wish others would be the same.

Quote

Of course, you remember that Shimmer joined with Kerwin in slamming me in defense of Martian – who was the most hateful poster I've encountered on HN and has since been rightfully banned by t8.

Mike, with Martian, I thought I had explained that with you, please, ask more if you still dont understand why I did that.

Quote

And all I know about Tim Kraft is that he doesn't like Jews, doesn't think Jesus was a Jew, and doesn't think the OT is even necessary.

Tim Kraft if it's true what you say, that is gnostic type. Tim needs to understand the old testement, why things happened as they did,

[shimmer]

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 27 2010,18:05)

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 26 2010,22:22) Adam, what are you saying ? What made you feel like this ? (karmarie Hi Sis Karmarie, Thanks for your concern about me. Infact I have been doing lot of research on Christian scriptures these days. I noticed lot of human bias and contradictions in the Bible both in O.T and N.T. It can not be an inspired book authorized by God. It seems to me as a mere human book like any other religious book with full bias towards regional and racism. Christianity made it universal religion which Jesus himself never meant that way. I still believe there may be a true God in this universe but He could not have commissioned this so called contradictory religion. I love all brothers and sisters who care for me in this forum especially brothers like Gene, Kerwin, Nick, T8 etc. and Sisters like Mandy, Irene, you and others. This is the forum that led me to unlearn my old inhibitions and helped me to be frank in my research. Love and peace to you and others Adam

Hi Adam.

I wish I could say the right thing to help you, we all have to have our own journey, in life, it hurts to see people become as you feel,

I think, for me, scripture I became addicted to, couldnt stop reading it, annoyed the heck out of everyone, but there came a time when I put it down, there came a time where I followed God, in spirit, in prayer, I stopped reading and remembered all that I needed, I do still read but only if I feel I have to, as shown in prayer.

Maybe Adam, you have read too much ? Adam, I pray now and hope you will be ok.

[GeneBalthrop]

To All…………..I make do no personally condemn anyone, that is up to God, What i do is attack the False doctrines i think are wrong such as the Trinity and Preexistences and try to show how they effect people and there walk with GOD and Jesus. If they build up the house of GOD or tare it down, if these doctrines build Faith and weaken it. If they bring us closer to Jesus and God the father or push us away from that relationship. That is all my issue here is. I have said over and over if anyone can show me where any (SPECIFIC) Scripture says “Jesus preexisted His berth” I would except it, in fact the word “Preexisted” does not even exist in scripture anywhere. Anyone can force a text to draw certain conclusions. Why do textual words have to be add to to get a clear meaning , why force the text at all, or move completely away from the context of what is being talked about and focus on ONE Word as if it proves a dogma by twisting it around and out of the overall context of what is being said. Like John 1:1 , where the word Jesus does not even appear there But preexistences and Trinitarian force the text and replace the Word , “WORD” there a (descriptor) of an attribute of GOD HIMSELF with Jesus a complete different being ,begin talked about there. Why cant people understand if John wanted to say Jesus there He simply would Have written his name in there. It like they just ignore that and go on with there false assumptions , do they think John was stupid or what, maybe he did not know how to spell Jesus and that is why He never wrote it? But yet he had no problem spelling Jesus in other text he wrote, So why not there then seeing trinitarians and Preexistences believe that is what John meant to say. Does any one get what i am saying WHY FORCE ANY TEXT TO SAY WHAT IN FACT IT IS NOT SAYING WHY CHANGE THE CONTEXT OF SOMETHING TO FIT ANY DOCTRINE AT ALL.. What i have noticed is all who do that are drawing from their Past associations in these false churches that preach and teach these things and they have long ago accepted then and falsely believe these teachings are need for them to have an right relationship with GOD and Jesus, when they are not needed, in fact they distort and change the true relationship God want us to have with Him and Jesus a man who is and was exactly like us in every way.

No one has produced any activity of Jesus in any prior life, before his berth on earth, They want us to believe the US spoken of in Genesis means Jesus and GOD , but id do not see the word Jesus there,at all, they want us to believe the word Wisdom Means Jesus even though it is personified as a SHE, they want us to believe Jesus is some kind of invisible Spirit being now even though he said he was not a Spirit Person because a Spirit does not have flesh and bone as he did and does. They believe that the eyes of Jesus are true flames of fire, not even understanding that Revelation is a BOOK of Symbols and was written in a symbolic Form and can not be taken literally but must be understood in a symbolic sense. they do not know what the word (signified means).

No one seem to realize that such a BIG POINT of Jesus being a preexisting being word weaken GOD work in MANKIND because we would not have an EXACT EXAMPLE to LOOK TO. We would be looking at an already perfect Person not really truly like we are in every way. They think GOD was dealing with a preexistent being and trying to perfect Him instead of a true Man from Mankind. They move Jesus identity away from us and this was a Big Deal with Paul and John and they fought against this SEPARATIST DOCTRINE OF PREEXISTENCE TAUGHT BY THE GNOSTIC'S and later by the TRINITARIANS who ARE PREEXISTENCES and are Antichrists . No one seem to understand (WHY) Paul and John were so diligent in trying to destory these false teaching , it was no little deal to them as they fought to restrain this false teaching and did so as long as they were alive , but when they dies this false teaching took root and infected (ALL) Christianity. Until at the council of Necia in 325 AD, it became the Main Doctrine of the Paganized Christian Church the Apostate Church Spoken of by Paul. Every since then it has been perfected and by translators who at times tweaked the text to support their false ideas and pagan ideologies. This doctrine is taught in every Church in Christendom toady and people are taught it from Childhood they have been saturated with the false teachings , and While some have come PART way Out most have not come all the way out of them yet.

Mike says it no big deal if Jesus preexisted His earth existences or not but that simply is not true it is a very big deal or why would Paul and John make such a big deal out of it , by calling those who teach it, Antichrists, and saying that was the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist. Yes it is a BIG DEAL a VERY BIG DEAL, because it distorts our perceptions of Jesus and who he is and was and how he related to Us as a fellow Human Being A VERY BIG DEAL INDEED. It not only does that but it alter our view and PERCEPTIONS of GODS Work IN AND THROUGH HUMANITY. These false teaching obscure the whole Plan and Purpose of GODS work in Human kind they muddy the waters of truth. All who preach and teach the Separation of Jesus form our (EXACT IDENTITY) ARE ANTICHRISTS, NO TWO WAY ABOUT IT. IMO and John and Paul's and all true Saints of GOD.

peace and love to you all…………………….gene

[shimmer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2010,02:23)

Like John 1:1 , where the word Jesus does not even appear there But preexistences and Trinitarian force the text and replace the Word , “WORD” there a (descriptor) of an attribute of GOD HIMSELF with Jesus a complete different being ,begin talked about there.  Why cant people understand if John wanted to say Jesus there He simply would Have written his name in there. It like they just ignore that and go on with there false assumptions , do they think John was stupid or what,  maybe he did not know how to spell Jesus and that is why He never wrote it?  But yet he had no problem spelling Jesus in other text he wrote,

Gene, I do see what your saying. John 1:1 has many people believing many different things. The word was with God and the word WAS God. Some add 'a' to it, “The word was a God”  Some say it means one-ness, Jesus and God are the same thing. God in the flesh. Sheppard of Hermas, one of the most read books beside scripture by the early church – say's the word was Gods son, Jesus was a man like us. Who after working co-operativly with Gods son (the word – who was the one who appeared speaking throughout the old testement), Jesus became another son of God, co-heir with the son (the word)and that we can also attain the like, something like that ? So thats another view as well.

[shimmer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2010,02:23)

No one seem to understand (WHY) Paul and John were so diligent in trying to destory these false teaching , it was no little deal to them as they fought to restrain this false teaching and did so as long as they were alive , but when they dies this false teaching took root and infected (ALL) Christianity. Until at the council of Necia  in 325 AD, it became the Main Doctrine of the Paganized Christian Church the Apostate Church Spoken of by Paul. Every since then it has been perfected and by translators who at times tweaked the text to support their false ideas and pagan ideologies.  This doctrine is taught in every Church in Christendom toady and people are taught it from Childhood they have been saturated with the false teachings ,   peace and love to you all…………………….gene

I was reading,

Dr. Adam Clarke

“But of these we may safely state that there is not a truth in the most orthodox creed that cannot be proved by their authority; nor a heresy that has disgraced the Romish church, that may not challenge them as its abettors. In points of doctrine, their authority is, with me, nothing. The word of God alone contains my creed.”
“We should take heed how we quote the fathers in proof of the doctrines of the gospel; because he who knows them best, knows that on many of those subjects they blow hot and cold.”

Ephraim Pagitt:

“The church of Rome having been conscious of their errors and corruptions, both in faith and manners, have sundry times pretended reformations; yet their great pride and infinite profit, arising from purgatory, pardons, and such like, hath hindered all such reformations. Therefore, to maintain their greatness, errors, and new articles of faith, 1. They have corrupted many of the ancient fathers, and reprinting them, make them speak as they would have them. . . . 2. They have written many books in the names of these ancient writers, and forged many decrees, canons, and councils, to bear false witness to them.”

I. THE RULE OF THE MAN OF GOD, THE BIBLE ALONE.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,17:15)

Mike, You have nerve! Quote I see the results of people who want their imagined version of the scriptures to be the real thing so badly that they are willing to actually ignore plain scriptures in order to acheive that goal.  I see it all the time with Kathi and her never-ending “wish” for Jesus to hold a higher position than what is actually taught in scripture.  She LOVES Jesus SO MUCH that she “wills” him to actually BE the God she worships.  And she makes all kinds of non-sensical statements to support her own imagined “reality”. He is a part of the God I worship.  And if it were my imagination and not Spirit led, why do so many agree with me that I can find Church Father's quotes saying the same thing and I don't even find them till after I have written them???  Think Mike!  I am not so alone and 'out there' as you SLANDER me to be. Were you wishing that I didn't read that?

Think about it Kathi.

Did I say anything in that post that I haven't repeatedly told you in posts directed to you and in pm's?  

And I'm sorry that you feel all “vindicated” to know there are many others out there that equally willingly disobey the direct commands of our God.

peace and love,
mike

[dirtyknections]

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 27 2010,16:28)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 27 2010,01:07) Adam………..I agree with what JA said there to a point. But we are told to “GROW IN GRACE (AND) KNOWLEDGE”,  and you also know this already, Just don't get discourage by all this debate going on here use what GOD has given you brother to bring Clarity to yourself and others here to.  I am not worried about you losing the FAITH Brother because the SPIRIT of GOD which was given You will guide you into (ALL) truth. You have no need of anyone Here to teach you anything, because the Spirit itself will. Continue to Trust GOD and seek revelation from him and that will make the words written in scripture clearer to you and us. Remember GOD calling is without revocation . You have a very good way of explaining scripture views to others, use it brother, why should any of us get discouraged we have put our hand to the plow and are plowing until the day comes when we shall recieve our rewards for our works in the vineyard of the LORD, no matter how little we have done we will all recieve the same reward. peace and love to you and yours Adam………………………………….gene Hi brothers Gene and JA, I really appreciate your love and concern on me. I am not losing my faith that way. I still have faith in true God who is leading me into light. But I find lot of contradictions in our Bible right from Genesis to Revelation. The different books in our Bible were written by different people to suit their theology and their community. They can not be reconcilled in any single doctrine or concept on God and religion. They are divergent and polyistic approach towards understanding of God in their own way. For example the two creation stories in Genesis can not be accepted as proof for true scientific nature of this universe. Similarly the Ten commandments of Torah can not be universalized to all nations and races. Please see the example of “do not kill” it was meant not to kill Isrealite's fellow brothern but not any Gentiles whom God himself ordered to distroy utterly including the innocent Babes who were suckling. The people who are most blessed by God were the worst example to us in this third millenium including father of nations Abraham, man according to God's own heart David etc. I can go on and on. Sorry for such allegation on the Bible. These are some of my mental arguments going on in my mind. Hope I may find peace With love and peace to you Adam

Don't be afraid of this journey my friend…”Faith” and “Reason” will always be at odds…

Each person has their own personal level of “proof” that they need when it comes to “spiritual assertions”. The evidence as to the inspiration of the bible has not met your level of “proof” yet…and that is perfectly fine. But, you must become aware of the fact it may NEVER reach it.

Now what? The answer to that question is for you to seek my friend

“To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself.” -Sophy Burnham

Even Paul said that each person must “work out their own salvation”…so with that being said…i will let you get back to work my friend

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 27 2010,20:14)

Mike,  Look at Gene, look at Kerwin, look at Marty, etc, what do they do to weaken someones faith ? Iv experienced nothing bad with them, but I have with one or two others here, Who would I rather be ? I would rather be like (Gene, Kerwin, Marty etc), I do not want to pull people down,

Maybe you don't even realize this Shimmer, but when you place two groups of people in a “good guy/bad guy” scenario, you don't have to come right out and tell the “bad guys” that you think they are “bad”.

So when Irene, Pierre and I have been showing Gene, Kerwin and Marty scriptures that CLEARLY teach that Jesus pre-existed, and you pipe in with your opinion of who the “good guys” are, then it's doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the other group, by contrast, is the “bad guys”.

Like I said before, I personally have no problem with you.  But I'm not here for the praise of men Shimmer.  Just like Jesus dealing with the Pharisees, I'm not going to “sugar-coat” things.  So, with that in mind, I'll say this bluntly.  

The “anything goes” attitude that you have is what's wrong with Christianity today.  People like you say,

“What?  He's gay?  That's okay, let's welcome him into the church anyway and worship side by side with him and his boyfriend.”  

Or, “Jim and Susan have been 'shacked up' for 6 years now.  I hope someday they'll get married, but boy, he sure is a great youth minister!”  

Or, “Sure the pastor fudges a little on his taxes – everyone does, right?”  

Or, “Does it really matter whether or not God is a Trinity?”  

Or, “Gene is preaching that Jesus didn't pre-exist.  I think he did pre-exist, although Gene did get me second guessing myself for a minute there.  But it's okay that Gene is teaching unscriptural doctrines that almost led me astray, and could possibly lead others astray………because he has a good heart and says nice words.”

Are you getting the picture here?  That second to last example comes from a thread YOU started.  And the last one comes from comments YOU made just today.

God gave us the scriptures as Law.  He commanded us to do things the way HE wants them done, not the way our watered-down, “live and let live” Christian congregations tell us it's okay to do them.

When you and Kathi were having your heated disagreement a couple of weeks ago, I kept out of it.  And although I had an opinion as to who was at fault from my own perspective, I kept my mouth shut. Why?  Because I knew if I piped in to “build up” one of you, I would be at the same time “tearing down” the other one.

Just some food for thought.  Take it or leave it.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2010,00:23)

What i do is attack the False doctrines i think are wrong such as the Trinity and Preexistences and try to show how they effect people and there walk with GOD and Jesus. If they build up the house of GOD or tare it down, if these doctrines build Faith and weaken it. If they bring us closer to Jesus and God the father or push us away from that relationship. That is all my issue here is.

And from WHOSE perspective do you decide which doctrines build up the House of God and which ones tear it down? Is it from a purely scriptural perspective Gene? Or is it from YOUR OWN PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE?

peace and love,
mike

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