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All, what is the big deal ? Why debate over such things, that is why I said, faith is more important than what you all say and judge of what a person thinks and how they see things, cant you see a good spirit in a person ? Who are you all to judge ?
Adam…………..You have rightly said “Christendom” is totally engulfed with the false teachings of Preexistence both by Trinitarians and Preexistences they both are in the same boat. This LIE Crept in after the apostles dies and has corrupted the identity of Jesus as a human being just like us in (EVERY) without Exception brother. But Adam why get discouraged brother, it is a gift from GOD that you understand this and you need to fight the fight of Faith and stand in what GOD has given you and be a witness to all , I told you a long times ago I could tell you have the Spirit of God in you, now use it to bring out the truth with clarity, which i have seen you do many time here and do not lose faith, God did not give you his spirit to put under a bed, “whosoever has, more shall be given” . Stand , stand strong in the LORD, don't give your crown to another, Speak through the sound mind GOD has given you. Do not let yourself become discouraged a time will come when we will recieve our crowns with great joy and great jubilation at the coming of the Messiah our Lord Jesus. Looking forward to his return with great anticipation, so that day does not overtakes us unaware, as it will all the earth. Cast away from you discouragement and pick up the sword of FAITH and carry the gospel we have recieved from Jesus and the apostles as a bright light into a darken world. Let you light So Shine Brother God did not give us his spirit to hide my Brother.
Peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………………………gene
Adam,
You seem to be falling prey to the delusion.Better that you simply believe and don't strive for the refinement.
As Shimmer says, 'Simply Believe', nothing more…
The refinements that are being debated here are not for everyone.
Those who seek for the refinement must be capable of absorbing the knowledge, infusing the truth, containing the argument, dismissing falsehoods. Else, they wil drown in the discussiin, swamped with vagarious points, get drawn hither and thither…and then storm off claiming it is all nonesense…and become Atheistic.
Know your limits and stay within it.
Grow within it until you imbibe enough knowledge. Then you can cast off that cloak of simple belief and put on another of refined belief.Adam, believe this, and this only, if nothing else:
1) Jesus came into being as Flesh and Blood Man. No need for the refinement of 'where he came from'.
2) Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and was tempted, and resisted the temptation of Satan. No need to prove the 'who or what' of Satan.
3) He confessed his father, YHVH God, and delivered the testiment that was his commission. No need to prove the name of God by spelling or meaning: YHVH, Jehovah, 'I AM'/'I Will Be', Yahveh, etc. Believe 'Most High God'.
4) He schooled the Disciples in Godly principles and provided himself as the perfect human example of such.
5) He healed the sick, comforted to the Widows, opened the eyes of the blind, made the lame walk, released the people from the bondage made from the Mosaic law and brought to light the 'Great Mystery': That ALL who believe in him, and the testimony he brought concerning his father and God, ALL, whether cuurently or previously Jew, Gentile, Samaritan, Circumsized, not Circumsized, Greek, Heathen, Savage, and even Roman, if they believe, will be saved. The Jews previously thought that they, the circumsized, would be the ONLY ones, and 'yes', up until the revelation of the 'Great Mystery', it was deemed to be so. Hence their jealousy following the revelation.
6) That Jesus was despised, beaten and tortured, yet sinned not, but instead, said, 'Love thine enemy'. Was tried and convicted, taking on the sins of the whole of mankind in that conviction. Was put to death on the Cross (No need for whether 'Cross' or 'Steak' or 'Tree', just, 'He was LIFTED UP' as he himself stated by prediction)
7) That he was in the grave, dead…for three days and nights just as Jonah was three days and nights in his 'grave', the belly of the great fish. And that Jesus rose again on the third day, as a man, in the flesh from death by the Holy Spirit of God, and was cleansed of the sin of mankind and became a Spirit Body, both Spirit AND flesh and was seen by many.
8) That he was taken up to Heaven to be seated at the righthand of God, the first to rise from the grave and come into the kingdom of God from the state of mankind.
9) That he is our reigning King in the Spirit, reigning until all things, governments, powers and authorities, are put in submission to him, whence he will hand the kingdom back to his father.
Adam, believe these things and hold to them. If you can strive for more then do so in refinement, but makes these points your base belief, and you will do well.
God Bless.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,15:03) Hi Gene, You have ignored the last two posts I made to you. You have also ignored the John 1:1 post both here and in the John 1:1-3 thread I moved it to. Why?
Here's another scripture you can ignore:
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
Now wait a minute here. Jesus never was, and never will be ANYTHING BUT FLESH, right Gene? What is this “other nature” Paul was alluding to? Hmmmmm……..
peace and love,
mike
Mike………….Your argument is with Jesus not me , Jesus said he was not spirit, but Flesh and BONE So don't be surprised when he come if he does not recognize you along with the rest of the Trinitarians and Preexistences, because it is yourselves that have moved Jesus away from yourselves not Him, you will recieve the separation you preach and teach on that day. IMOAdam………..I agree with what JA said there to a point. But we are told to “GROW IN GRACE (AND) KNOWLEDGE”, and you also know this already, Just don't get discourage by all this debate going on here use what GOD has given you brother to bring Clarity to yourself and others here to. I am not worried about you losing the FAITH Brother because the SPIRIT of GOD which was given You will guide you into (ALL) truth. You have no need of anyone Here to teach you anything, because the Spirit itself will. Continue to Trust GOD and seek revelation from him and that will make the words written in scripture clearer to you and us. Remember GOD calling is without revocation . You have a very good way of explaining scripture views to others, use it brother, why should any of us get discouraged we have put our hand to the plow and are plowing until the day comes when we shall recieve our rewards for our works in the vineyard of the LORD, no matter how little we have done we will all recieve the same reward.
peace and love to you and yours Adam………………………………….gene
Gene: Your posts remain full of love, power and truth. I know your words are the spirit of God because they are truth, they build up and encourage, they inlighten the hearor, and they never destroy and they heal a hearing soul.
That my brother is God being administered in the earth, spreading love and truth. I know others will learn from you and began to build up all others. This is the work of the church or body of Christ. I commend you, TKQuote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 27 2010,03:35) Gene: Your posts remain full of love, power and truth. I know your words are the spirit of God because they are truth, they build up and encourage, they inlighten the hearor, and they never destroy and they heal a hearing soul.
That my brother is God being administered in the earth, spreading love and truth. I know others will learn from you and began to build up all others. This is the work of the church or body of Christ. I commend you, TK
I agree TK. From what iv seen here, preexistancers can power-trip and harm peoples faith, non -preexistancers here seem to do more building up and encouraging, and are peacefull, and it makes me wonder, I know it's just one site, but it say's by their fruits you will know them.Good encouragment for Adam Gene and JA, I was really upset yesterday, reading that Adam feels like that, things do get confusing, I understand how Adam feels, I hope he will be ok.
Shimmer,
None the less, 'Encourage the brother who is in the Truth. For he that is not against [God] is with [God]'
Ah Shimmer, that's the hard part.
It is personal choice based on your belief of what is the true light.
Gene may be praising a poster for their good post. That is easy to do and a good way to get others on his side by 'praising' the work of others.
But why did Gene not post these things himself?
PreExistence of Christ is absolutely and plainly spoken of in Scriptures, yet Gene says ''not so, and anyone who believes that he preExisted is an 'AntiChrist' ''.
Scriptures says, 'Anyone who believes that Jesus HAS COME in the flesh will be saved'.'Has Come'…does that seem like simply 'Born'?
From WHERE is he to come from?
From Heaven, Scripture tells us, the Spirit from Heaven. And then Jesus himself say, 'What if you see me return to where I once was?'
And where might that be? And did 'they' see him return?
Yes, they stood and watched as he ascended into the clouds (Into the Heavenly dimensions).What Gene is patently avoiding is the FACT that Jesus 'EMPTIED himself of his DIVINE nature to become man.
Any one who has honesty in their belief would not dismiss clear teachings because it contradicts their belief.
If their belief is right then they can show with honest to goodness verbatim Scriptural verses, or the understanding thereof.So Shimmer, it is all hard for you.
As for choice, you need to get down on it and work it out for yourself.I take it I'm “an” antichrist, not “the” antichrist?
If I've torn people down I apologize but I've tried to avoid belaboring the point to avoid just that thing (Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen).
But I am concerned when one side of a debate begins to condemn the other over a difference in interpretation, I could be wrong, but really… antichrist. I believe that Jesus emptied Himself and came in the flesh, how that was done, I DON'T KNOW!!, but I assume God could handle it.
4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
My opinion, Wm
Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 26 2010,22:25) All, what is the big deal ? Why debate over such things, that is why I said, faith is more important than what you all say and judge of what a person thinks and how they see things, cant you see a good spirit in a person ? Who are you all to judge ?
shimmer, you got that one wrong. t8 and Mike and myself go by Scriptures plainly written. When it says that Jesus came down from Heaven, it means that He did. Gene has called us Anti-Christ etc. and you are saying that we are judging? IreneQuote (JustAskin @ Oct. 27 2010,08:59) Ah Shimmer, that's the hard part. It is personal choice based on your belief of what is the true light.
Gene may be praising a poster for their good post. That is easy to do and a good way to get others on his side by 'praising' the work of others.
But why did Gene not post these things himself?
PreExistence of Christ is absolutely and plainly spoken of in Scriptures, yet Gene says ''not so, and anyone who believes that he preExisted is an 'AntiChrist' ''.
Scriptures says, 'Anyone who believes that Jesus HAS COME in the flesh will be saved'.'Has Come'…does that seem like simply 'Born'?
From WHERE is he to come from?
From Heaven, Scripture tells us, the Spirit from Heaven. And then Jesus himself say, 'What if you see me return to where I once was?'
And where might that be? And did 'they' see him return?
Yes, they stood and watched as he ascended into the clouds (Into the Heavenly dimensions).What Gene is patently avoiding is the FACT that Jesus 'EMPTIED himself of his DIVINE nature to become man.
Any one who has honesty in their belief would not dismiss clear teachings because it contradicts their belief.
If their belief is right then they can show with honest to goodness verbatim Scriptural verses, or the understanding thereof.So Shimmer, it is all hard for you.
As for choice, you need to get down on it and work it out for yourself.
JA……..Is this your alter JA talking or you. You say i have not posted Scripture that show Jesus came into existence by the Flesh of a Women like GOD said he would . I have posted exactly what Moses Said the Messiah would come form and other Prophets and GOD HIMSELF saying that, Jesus would come from the very loins of DAVID, and even where Jesus said he was the root and offspring of David. Truth is you as well as the Preexistences are not producing any real Specifically scriptures stating Jesus preexisted his berth on earth, just as Mike only produces scriptures that can be taken many way as you do like with your Lucifer/ Satan, thing. Just you own assumptions are without any true basis, So if i were you i wouldn't be chiding anyone seeing you are no better with your so-called JA alter EGO Reasoning either.JA have a question for you , what do you think the apostle John was driving at by saying that those who deny Jesus as coming (IN) the FLESH were Antichrist. Saying this mindset or Spirit was the Spirit of Antichrist. John never said that who soever did not acknowledge Jesus as being MORPHED or INCARNATED into the flesh, was Antichrist as He would have said if in Fact John thought Jesus was A (MORPHED OR INCARNATED BEING OF ANY KIND. NO He simply said who ever did not acknowledge Jesus as coming (IN) the Flesh was Antichrist. So you take the word Coming as being Morphed instead of just coming into existence as a human being through being Born into existence as we are.
Now if you can ask yourself why was John even concerned with those Gnostic teachings anyway , so what if a person view Jesus as coming from the Pelora of GOD , YOU and all preexistences and trinitarians DO Right? so why make a fuse over it to the point of calling a person and Antichrist . What did John and Paul see in this false teaching that caused them so much concern. It could not have been the fact that Jesus left his former state from GOD , if that were the case , what harm was there in people thinking Jesus was a Morphed being a god or demigod or angle anyway. YOU DO.
Let me tell you why because those teachings (all of them) drives a wedge between Jesus and Us , they all make him different and push his identity away from us , and this is exactly what yours and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians do, the very same thing as the Gnostic's of John day did. In fact the Trinitarians and Preexistences are the modern day Gnostic's. You have not part with Jesus because you are a Separatist and push him away from yourself and others also by your false dogmas and teachings of a Morphed or INCARNATED Jesus. He is not a real human being to you and all who preach those false teachings you espouse. Jesus the SON of MAN has nothing to do with you by your own doing not His it appears. Not only do you destory the work of the MAN JESUS, you destory the WORK of GOD (IN) the MAN JESUS our (BROTHER) the FIRST BORN form the HUMAN RACE as a human being Turned into a eternal living SON of GOD and Raised from the DEAD the First human being BORN of MANY BROTHERS. The First to achieve the GOAL GOD had in mind for (ALL)of MANKIND.
JA remember we are told to come OUT of those false teachings of the Apostate Churches, not part of the way out but ALL the way out .
peace and love…………………….gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 26 2010,22:00) if Jesus was preexisting his birth and was before Abraham, was he a real human like you and me who could be our example in weakness. He must be an alien and belong to different world. How can Christianity claim Jesus was 100% man?
Hi Adam,Samson was strong enough to kill 1000 men with a jawbone of an ass…….can you do that? But does the fact that he was “better” than us in some ways diminish our ability to use his faith in God as an example?
This is my main grudge against those who are willing to non-sensically twist or completely ignore all the many scriptures that clearly teach the pre-exsistence of Jesus. You guys seem to only do it because of some “wish” you have in your minds that if Jesus was exactly like you are, you can somehow have a better chance at being saved.
We are to follow Jesus' teachings to someday become like HE is. That isn't to say that he was at one time exactly like WE are.
And “100% man” is not mentioned in the Bible.
As far as becoming a skeptic:
Matthew 13:18-23
18″Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”Plant the seed of your faith in God in good soil Adam. Don't let those of this world take it away from you at any cost, let alone just because of a scriptural disagreement.
May God bless you and keep you as his dear son.
mike
Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 26 2010,22:00) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 25 2010,09:24) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 25 2010,06:39) Mike ………..I have to agree with JA and His alter EGO, much of what he said there is true, POINT is Mike you do force the text to try to draw a conclusion that you want and to what the text does not actual say and that this is what many Trinitarians and Preexistences d
Gene. This is exactly what you do.You add words to the text all the time like “in God's mind”.
You add your own context.e.g., “Before Abraham was, I am” becomes something different to what it is saying.
“Back to the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun” becomes into the glory that God imagined in the past of his son in the future”.
These are huge changes from the text.
I respect people who read the text and accept it for what it says and align to what it says. I have no respect for people who start of with a preconceived idea and stick with it no matter what, and use scripture to back up their view by changing, adding, and taking away from it.
I have been debating with Trinitarians for years who are quite clever at this. You may not be a Trinitarian, but you employ the same tactics.
Hi brother T8, if Jesus was preexisting his birth and was before Abraham, was he a real human like you and me who could be our example in weakness. He must be an alien and belong to different world. How can Christianity claim Jesus was 100% man?This is where I am really fed up with Bible and Christianity. Therefore now I am on the way to becoming a skeptic than a believer of blind faith.
I am sorry
Adam
Adam, what you are saying here is not good. I do believe that there re Christians and there are Christians. Did Jesus come down from Heaven, or not? Look at all those Scriptures that plainly tells that He was in Heaven with His Fathr before the world was. Don't listen to me, don't listen to Gene, don't listen to Mike. Get your Bible out and pray to God for Wisdom. That is what my Husband has done for the last 8 years. Before He studies, He always ask God for wisdom. it is Georg who taught me most what I believe today….Mic 5:2 ¶ But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was
In this Scripture, ask yourself what is Jesus now. What is the glory that He is saying, which He had with His Father before the world was….?
Renumber the Scripture that says that flesh and blood cannot inherit Gods kingdom….
Christ is now sitting next to Jehovah God on His Throne. To be there He has to be Spirit Being….
Also¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Christ never was just like us. We have doubts, just like you now….
shimmer went through that too, and I admit so did I.And this is how Christ will return as
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Adam, I understand that these are a lot of Scriptures. But just take them and take yourself time to study these….
Peace adn Love to you, IreneMike ……….. What makes you think Sampson was any different then we are , It was GOD that Gave him that Strength not himself. Do you see how your thinking screws up our relationships, even with Sampson, So to you, you can never come to the full STATURE of Christ right, because Jesus is so much superior to us and GOD could never do for us what he did for Jesus, because he was so different then us right, SO that can never happen to us right. So why even try to be like him in the first place sense he is so different then we are. That is the results of Preexistences and Trinitarians the off Spring of the Gnostic's that drives a wedge between Jesus and ourselves, it distorts our exact identity with Him.
peace and love………………………………………..gene
Quote (Baker @ Oct. 27 2010,14:39) shimmer, you got that one wrong. t8 and Mike and myself go by Scriptures plainly written. When it says that Jesus came down from Heaven, it means that He did. Gene has called us Anti-Christ etc. and you are saying that we are judging? Irene
Amen to that Irene. All we've done is clearly point out scriptures while Gene ignores or twists them and calls us “antichrists” and “descendents of gnostics”. Yet Tim Kraft and Shimmer believe Gene to be the “builder upper” here. And Shimmer judges us often for debating scriptures, yet says, “Who are you to judge?” Of course, you remember that Shimmer joined with Kerwin in slamming me in defense of Martian – who was the most hateful poster I've encountered on HN and has since been rightfully banned by t8.
Hey Irene, did you notice that Martian later unleashed his wrath on Kerwin for the same non-reason as he unleashed it on me? I love poetic justice.
And all I know about Tim Kraft is that he doesn't like Jews, doesn't think Jesus was a Jew, and doesn't think the OT is even necessary. So it's not surprising to me that he would think calling others “antichrists” is “uplifting”. Nor does it surprise me that he is also willing ignore the many scriptures that clearly teach the pre-existence of Christ.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
peace and love,
mike
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