Preexistence

Participant

Gene,

You just copying what I do.

Don't you have your own style.

Or, do you think that you are flattering me by copying…after all, what's that they say, 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'.

Why do I sense you are frustrated? I don't see why telling you the truth about your unscriptural ditribe shoukd invoke such an unexemplary passionate response.

You don't respond to the actual claim. Why is that? Because it is true? I fear that it is.

But Gene, do you not then see that I give you a gateway to escape out of. I have not demanded a Holy Spirited response from you.
Should I do that, do you want me to do that?
Gene, if i were to do that you would be held accountable to God through his Spirit and speak the truth.

Gene, do you know what that really means. Even Mikeboll and WJ dare not post counter to truth. Why do I sense that you would post counter to truth…the answer is obvious…

October 17, 2010 at 3:14 pm#220250

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Oct. 17 2010,13:54)

At one point He would have to change into a Spirit Being, or He was and the Apostles just perceived Him as a Human Being, yet He was a Spirit Being. You think that could be possible?

Hi Irene,

That's quite a story about the 2 year old girl. Praise Jah! And my thinking leans toward the bolded part of your post above. I think he was raised as spirit from the grave but could “manifest” various “flesh and bone” bodies as needed, just as the two angels at his grave were able to “appear” as “men”.

But this is off topic……maybe we should start a thread about whether Jesus has a “flesh” or “spiritual” body now.

peace and love,
mike

October 17, 2010 at 3:28 pm#220251

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Oct. 17 2010,15:28)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,15:04)

Irene……….We all can believe what we want to, i disagree with you on this subject as well as with Mike and T8, JA and all preexistences and Trinitarians . I Believe they are of the Spirit of Antichrist John was talking about that would come and infect the Churches and it did and still does IMO. If you don't see Jesus as one of Us Humans You simply do not see him at all. I did not say he was not (CALLED) the word of GOD what i said was that because People CALL HIM THAT DOES (NOT) MAKE HIM THAT. When you say Jesus is the WORD of GOD you are stealing GLORY from GOD the FATHER, He is the Spokesman of GOD the FATHERS WORDS to Us , i have never denied that and when He come He will still be Speaking (GOD the FATHERS) Words to us. But they will not be (HIS) WORDS he will Be Speaking just as before when He was on the earth. He will still be doing the WILL of the FATHER. IMO

Peace and love to you and Georg……………………gene

Gene! Saying what you just did, is judging me and others that believe the preexisting of Jesus. To say that is the spirit of Anti-Christ is ridiculous to say the least. If I would deny that Christ came and died for us in the flesh then yes, but we do not deny Christ coming in the flesh. You are out of your mind. You call us blind? Yes, you need a break. Putting the Trinitarians and the Pre Existing together is also stupid to say the least. I know neither t8 or Mike believe in the trinity. Whoever believes in the trinity is not of Anti Christ either…. It is a wrong doctrine and Christ will set them straight one day….But you are judging us, and I believe God will not look kindly on that, my friend.
It amazes me that you even sign Peace and Love how can you mean that when you have just called us that, because Georg too believes like us…..He however is smarter then I. He will not debate the likes of you……
Have a good live…. Irene

Irene……..Preexistences as well as Trinitarians , have this in common , they both believe in the Preexistence of Jesus as a Being of some Kind, one thinks He was a GOD, the others think He was a demigod or morphed angle or what ever. But the Fact are both believe in the Pre earth existence of Jesus. Can you at least agree with that?…. Now if you do agree with that then let me go on here and explain my points, If we believe in Jesus' preexistence then we (ARE) SEPARATING JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) LIKENESS, Correct? Do you have any problem with this so far?

Now lets examine the teachings of the Gnostic's of John and Paul's Day, what was there teachings and what did those teaching do?, they taught that Jesus was Not really a normal Human Being as we were , but that He was sent from the Gods to come into earth and straighten things our here. They were the original PREEXISTENCES there teachings were driving a wedge between Jesus' existence and our existence making him different then us, they were the original separatist of Jesus' identity with us.

This is what John and Paul were addressing in their day this SPIRIT (intellect) of SEPARATION was the SPIRIT(intellect) of ANTICHRIST John and Paul were warning us about. It was so prevalent that Paul wrote in the Book of 2 THs 2 describing it as a LIE and while they were alive they held back this teaching, but after their deaths it took root and began to infect the whole church until at the council of Necia in 325 Ad it became the official teaching of the Apostate Churches and it is there main tenet to this very day. It is a False (IMAGE) of Jesus being different from us even to the POINT of HIM being very GOD HIMSELF. It is this false IMAGE that created the MAN OF SIN. There is NO (REAL) MAN OF SIN PERSON it is a false (IMAGE) of Jesus Being what in fact he is NOT., And when Jesus comes He will (abolish) this False teaching which is Nothing more than a LIE about Jesus HIMSELF. A LIE that distorts our IMAGE of JESUS from being a pure human being to a divine GOD or demigod or super morphed Angel. Any way you want to look at it, it all (SEPARATES) JESUS FROM OUR LIKENESS AND Our Identity with Him as a SON OF MAN> IMO

peace and love to you and Georg……………………….gene

October 17, 2010 at 3:34 pm#220252

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,14:28)

Mike……….I don't have any problem with Jesus being the Spokesman of Gods words to us I Never did. But to say a person is a spokesmen is one thing and to say that person is the very words He Spoke is quite another.

Hi Gene,

Would it help you to know that “the Word” is simply a way to say “God's spokesman”…….not any particular “word” God spoke? This info from the Watchtower Society might help:

Why God’s Son is called “the Word.” A title often describes the function served or the duty performed by the bearer. So it was with the title Kal-Hatzé, meaning “the voice or word of the king,” that was given an Abyssinian officer. Based on his travels from 1768 to 1773, James Bruce describes the duties of the Kal-Hatzé as follows. He stood by a window covered with a curtain through which, unseen inside, the king spoke to this officer. He then conveyed the message to the persons or party concerned. Thus the Kal-Hatzé acted as the word or voice of the Abyssinian king.—Travels to Discover the Source of the Nile, London, 1790, Vol. III, p. 265; Vol. IV, p. 76.

Recall, too, that God made Aaron the word or “mouth” of Moses, saying: “He must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him.”—Ex 4:16.

In a similar way God’s firstborn Son doubtless served as the Mouth, or Spokesman, for his Father, the great King of Eternity. He was God’s Word of communication for conveying information and instructions to the Creator’s other spirit and human sons. It is reasonable to think that prior to Jesus’ coming to earth, on many of the occasions when God communicated with humans he used the Word as his angelic mouthpiece. (Ge 16:7-11; 22:11; 31:11; Ex 3:2-5; Jg 2:1-4; 6:11, 12; 13:3) Since the angel that guided the Israelites through the wilderness had ‘Jehovah’s name within him,’ he may have been God’s Son, the Word.—Ex 23:20-23.

Showing that Jesus continued to serve as his Father’s Spokesman, or Word, during his earthly ministry, he told his listeners: “I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. . . . Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me them, so I speak them.”—Joh 12:49, 50; 14:10; 7:16, 17.

I hope this helps Gene. The Abyssinian King's “word” was the spokesman who conveyed the King's many words to the public………not just one particular “word” that the king spoke.

peace and love,
mike

October 17, 2010 at 3:49 pm#220254

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 18 2010,01:25)

God and His word is one and the same thing. You have that right.

Hi Gene,

Then who is the “Word OF God” in Rev?

mike

October 17, 2010 at 3:50 pm#220255

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 17 2010,21:20)

Gene I think your right with Jesus body, as I said before I agree on that, Jesus was risen in his (glorified) body and will return in the same way.

Hi Shimmer,

Did you get a chance to read 1 Cor 15 yet?

mike

October 17, 2010 at 3:53 pm#220256

Participant

Gene,
Time and time again you have been shown Scriptures clearly stating Christ in preExistence. Even Jesus himself showed his disciples in the Scriptures where the things were written about him. The Angels (Just out of interest, why do you write, 'Angles' instead of 'Angels', even by translation and examples of others you should have altered your spelling) mentioned as 'My Angel', 'Do not grieve him, for my name is in him', why would God reverence an ordinary Angel?
This, clearly, was a special Angel, one more beloved than the others. One in whom God put his power and authority, which is what 'Name' means in this context… How many people stress at saying 'Yahshua' meaning Jesus' name is in God's name, Yahveh. This is meaningful, yes, but, is not the important issue. It is the power behind the name. The Angel had the power and authority given to him by God Almighty to carry out a specific task.
Gene, whom might that Angel have been? It was not Michael, nor Gabriel, because both are named elsewhere. And it could not have been 'Lucifer'! These are the named princes of God. Who was it that wrestled with Jacob, the Angel who would not tell him his name but said only, 'why do you ask my name, because it is wonderful'. This cannot be God in the way Jacob describes the 'man' because God would not have abstained from telling his name as easy as he well later Moses. Besides God always uses an Agent, a Messenger, an…Angel, in his dealings with man.
And which of the Angels was 'the Angel of the Lord' in the burning bush speaking the WORD of God from within. When God himself appears to mankind, the whole earth is in turmoil, such is the power and awe that even the mountains froth and boil as when God himself appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai.

October 17, 2010 at 4:03 pm#220257

Participant

Mike…………Don't talk down to me, Noting there i did not already know and say, That is exactly what i have been saying all along very clearly. I have alway said that Jesus was a Spokesman speaking GOD words to Us , GOD was indeed speaking (Through) Jesus. Just as he did the Prophets and Angels also. But being the Spokesman of someone else's words does not make you the source of those word.

But when people say the WORD became the Flesh Man Jesus that is simply a false statement , What in fact it means the WORD which (IS) GOD came and INDWELT THE FLESH MAN JESUS. Big difference . False teachers say Jesus was the source of the very Words he Spoke to Us giving him a divine Godly Status. They steal the Glory that belongs to GOD the FATHER and Give it to the man Jesus. IMO

peace and love……………………………….gene

October 17, 2010 at 4:08 pm#220258

Baker

Participant

Gene! Jesus was not a demigod of some sort. He is God's Son, the only begotten Son of God. The firstborn of all creation Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14.
It seems you just don't want to hear the truth…..Yet judging you can do even our Savior Jesus Christ, when Scriptures plainly tell us in Jesus own words in John

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

and in John 17:5

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus was there just like John 1:1 says. The Word of God(Which is a title just like God is) in Heaven and emptied Himself and became like A Servant. In

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Tell me, like Mike said too, if Jesus was already like a man, would He then have to emptied Himself and become in the likeness of men?

These Scriptures prove to me, that Christ was more then a mere man……

One more thing whoever believes in tne trinity does not believe that Jesus was created and had a beginning, so you fail also in that statement….
Irene

October 17, 2010 at 4:18 pm#220259

Participant

JA………..I have a eye problem and some times i get the word wrong , but that would not be a probe if T8 would allow me Editing right i could straighten them out. So if i misspell a word now and them or forget to add a S or something nothing i can do about it. You will just have to try to understand what i am saying.

You are wrong No one has shown any (CLEAR) EXACT Scripture that says “JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH AS A BEING OF ANY KIND” if you have such a text please present it them, but not some text that can be taken in different ways, Just One SPECIFIC TEXT THE SAYS IT. Not some MYSTERY Religious fervor you are caught up in that produces all kind of false thought in you head about Jesus past ANGELIC EXISTENCE. Try to rely on the scriptures we have instead of coming up with your own imaginations brought about by your alter EGO

peace and love……………………………..gene

October 17, 2010 at 4:24 pm#220260

Blocked

Gene:

Quote

……..Preexistences as well as Trinitarians , have this in common , they both believe in the Preexistence of Jesus as a Being of some Kind, one thinks He was a GOD, the others think He was a demigod or morphed angle or what ever. But the Fact are both believe in the Pre earth existence of Jesus.

But we could equally join you to the trinitarians, Gene. Both you and they believe that the “Word” is God Himself. How would you like it if instead of addressing the scriptures you quote in defense of your beliefs, we just kept spewing, “Gene, you are just like the trinitarians!”? It wouldn't be honest or fair, would it?

Gene:

Quote

If we believe in Jesus' preexistence then we (ARE) SEPARATING JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) LIKENESS, Correct?

You are correct Gene. But you confuse the hope that we all have to someday be like Jesus with the flawed assumption that Jesus was originally like us. We will be elevated to being his brothers, sisters and joint heirs with him of our Father.

After reading 2 Thess 2 again, you might be on to something here about the trinitarians:

4He will oppose and will exalt himself over (or “upon”, “at”, or “by”) everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

I am in agreement with you that this could be about the trinitarians, for they most definitely set Jesus up equal with “everything that is called God and worshipped”. They made up a “false Jesus” who “proclaims himself to be God”. And this delusion is so powerful that they believe this lie and delight in the wickedness of taking glory away from our only true God – despite the fact that He says He will share His glory with NO other.

But please don't lump us in with them Gene. It is dishonest and unfair to us.

peace and love,
mike

October 17, 2010 at 4:30 pm#220261

Baker

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 18 2010,03:18)

peace and love……………………………..gene

Gene! Don't you have a ABC check on your computer? I don't know sometimes how to spell a word, and I use it all the time….It helps…….Irene

October 17, 2010 at 4:36 pm#220262

Participant

Irene………..You are not understanding that all of what you have quoted can be simply summed up in the Fact that JESUS WAS FOREORDAINED AS PETER SAID HE WAS (BUT ) WAS MANIFESTED IN OUR TIME. Don't you think PETER would Have KNOWN if Jesus Preexisted as a Being of some KIND or for that matter any of the Apostles , Don't you think if such a thing as that were true it would have been spelled out very, very, very, clearly by the Apostles and BY Jesus himself so as there would be (NO) Confusion. So why did they not (PLAINLY) tell us that, why try to hunt a word here or there that can be forced out of context to mean what in fact is not meant. Why can't you understand that. You have come from a background of Catholic churches that believed in Jesus as a GOD or divine Person not really like us at all but a God or demigod or angel of some Kind (incarnated) or Morphed into a Human being so you have this separation belief (IN) You and you it is the Spirit (intellect) of ANTICHRIST and you do not identify with Jesus as One of US at all but push him away from yourself as separated from yourself and mankind. WE need to deal in reality not in MYSTERY RELIGIOUS Beliefs. IMO

Peace and love……………………..gene

October 17, 2010 at 4:41 pm#220263

Participant

Gene,

You are coming round. Good man.

Pity it took so long.

You are indeed right.

Jesus is the Spokesman for God. No one ever said that 'the word' of God became flesh in that '………' the words….of God became flesh… That is silly.

No one ever thought that. If that was your point of argument then you have been posting very badly…

Jesus is speaking the words of God, exactly as he himself said. Gene, how could you then say that Jesus was 'the word' itself…themselves…

Gene, as for stealing the glory from God, Jesus, was dong no such thing. Far from it, in fact he came to fulfill those very words…to the glory…of his father and God.
Again, Gene, you are the only one saying these things.

In fact, it appears you have been arguing against Scriptures and yourself.

Keep coming this way…it is the right way.

October 17, 2010 at 4:50 pm#220264

Blocked

Gene:

Quote

Mike…………Don't talk down to me,

Is this going to be how you start all of your posts to me from now on? Well, please stop it! It's annoying and I've already apologized twice just to “keep the peace” even though I haven't spoken to you in any way you haven't spoken to me.

Gene:

Quote

I have alway said that Jesus was a Spokesman speaking GOD words to Us

And a “spokesman” could also be called a “word”. The King of Abyssinia's spokesman was called the king's “word”. Do you understand this concept?

Gene:

Quote

But being the Spokesman of someone else's words does not make you the source of those word.

And no one here is saying that Gene. God is the source, Jesus is God's “Word” who spoke only what the Father told him to speak.

Gene:

Quote

But when people say the WORD became the Flesh Man Jesus that is simply a false statement

Then your argument is with scripture, for John 1:14 clearly says what you claim is “a false statement”.

Gene:

Quote

What in fact it means the WORD which (IS) GOD came and INDWELT THE FLESH MAN JESUS.

Which exact “word” of God was it that “indwelt” Jesus? Was it the word “elephant”? Maybe it was the word “ant-eater”? Which particular word that God spoke was the word that became flesh, Gene? And how did that ONE particular word “dwell among us with the glory of an only begotten Son”?

Please ADDRESS my points here Gene. You often ignore the good scriptural things people say in a effort to help you understand. And I think JA is right, you ignore them because to address them would mean you would have to come to the conclusion that your doctrine is flawed and unscriptural.

mike

October 17, 2010 at 5:30 pm#220271

Participant

Mke……..So let examine another Lie then………..You and the rest say Jesus was (the) Word of GOD right, You all quote John I:1 as Jesus being (the) word mentioned there right, But as i have brought out before it SAYS (“THE WORD (WAS) GOD”) So how can that be then if JESUS WAS (THE) definite article “WORD”. Why manipulate Scriptures to try to make it different from what it is Plainly is saying. “(THE) WORD WAS GOD” one and the same GOD was His WORDS< NOT Jesus who spoke those word (OF GOD) to Us , Therefore (the) WORD WAS GOD and With GOD was his WORDS, (NOT) JESUS. Jesus was the spokesman (BIG) difference, that has been my point all along From the very beginning being on this site. Jesus did not preexist as the WORD of GOD EVER, He is called that because He speaks GOD the FATHER WORD, to Us and that is the ONLY He is called that. That does not make him the WORDS He spoke at all no more then if i or you Spoke GODS word would make us the WORD either. IMO

Mike what i mean by don't talk down to me is that nothing you are producing in regards to Jesus being the Spokesman of GOD to Us is new to me i have known that probably far before you have i am not a Novice to the scriptures and the word of GOD, i Have been studying and reading them nearly all my life and am quite aged now. So try to show more respect when speaking to me. IT Would be appreciated.

peace and love…………………………….gene

October 17, 2010 at 5:51 pm#220273

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 18 2010,03:41)

Jesus is speaking the words of God, exactly as he himself said. Gene, how could you then say that Jesus was 'the word' itself…themselves…

Keep coming this way…it is the right way.

JA ……….. First of all show (ONE) Post where I (EVER SAID) Jesus was the WORD himslef. Please POST it or Just admit you are a LIER, the Representative of the (false) accuser of the brothers you undisclosed true role, Go ahead an POST it or admit you are LYING about ME.

Many believe Jesus (IS) the very WORD of GOD HIMSELF, and a GOD as GOD IS GOD. They believe the Word he spoke were (his) words because he is a GOD from GOD to them. And i am not coming around to nothing i always knew that He was not the Words He Spoke before you ever showed up Here, misrepresenting me and others seems to be your intent .

It appears you have a very big EGO Problem JA or JA the alter EGO, which ever is which i can't tell. You also like your brother Mike seem to want to talk down to others , your high tower you have built for yourself is starting to crumble, be careful you could suffer greatly. IMO

gene

October 17, 2010 at 6:18 pm#220275

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 18 2010,04:30)

Hi Gene,

Good………let's DO examine that lie. It is the modern language translations that render a capital “G” and translate John 1:1 as “and the Word was God”. That was never John's intent as his other writings clearly indicate he knew Jesus was NOT God Almighty Himself. John says Jesus was “the only begotten god”. Now does God Almighty have a beginning? Is God Almighty “begotten” by anyone? John knew full well that Jesus was the Son of God Almighty – not God Almighty Himself, for he said exactly that:

John 20:31 NIV
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

This is John 1:1 in the actual Greek it was written in:

(GNT+) εν1722 PREP αρχη746 N-DSF ην2258 V-IXI-3S
in beginning was

ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-
the word and the

NSM λογος3056 N-NSM ην2258 V-IXI-3S προς4314 PREP
word was toward(or with)

τον3588 T-ASM θεον2316 N-ASM και2532 CONJ θεος2316
the god and god

N-NSM ην2258 V-IXI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM
was the word

in beginning was the word and the word was with the god and god was the word

You'll notice the word was with THE god, but was (a) god. In the Koine' Greek language, the indefinite article “a” was left out and has to be added by English translators to make sense in our language. This happens twice in John 8:44:

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Neither of the “a's” I've bolded and underlined are in the Greek text, but are added in every English translation for our understanding. The problem is, the English translations are almost exclusively trinitarian, and none of them want to add the “a” in John 1:1, for they WANT Jesus to be “God Almighty Himself”, and omitting the “a” and capping the “G” makes John 1:1 one of their best “trinity proof texts”.

But you and I know that John called one “god” and said that one was with “THE God”. And based on how the word “god” was used back then, all John was saying was that the Word was “a mighty one” who was with “THE Almighty One” in the beginning.

Now there are many “experts” in the Greek language who will argue this back and forth with many techical terms and “rules of Greek grammar”, but all one has to do is use is the good sense that God gave us. Mikeboll 64 cannot possibly be WITH Mikeboll 64. So therefore, if the Word IS God Almighty, it could not be said that the Word was WITH God Almighty.

I know you don't like the word “god” used about Jesus, but you must face up to the scriptures that have many who are not God Almighty being called “god”. It meant “mighty one”, and Jesus most definitely IS a “mighty one”. And Jehovah Himself foretold through Isaiah that His Messiah would be called “mighty god”, so we knew it was coming.

Are you in agreement with this evidence about John 1:1? If not, let's talk this “lie” out. Because once you understand Jesus was in fact the “Word” who was with God in the beginning, all the rest will fall into place Gene.

peace and love,
mike

October 17, 2010 at 6:30 pm#220276

Blocked

Hi Gene,

I notice you have now included JA as one who “talks down to you”. You say OUR egos are leading us, but possibly it is YOUR own ego that is being crushed in light of scriptural evidence. You say you've been studying scripture for many years, and I imagine it must be a crushing blow to find out many of your long held beliefs aren't even in line with these very scriptures you've studied for so long.

Let go and let God, Gene. All I've done is show you scriptures that show your understandings to be unscriptural. If you want to call that “ego”, then go ahead.

I don't consider you a “stupid” man. So if it is not “stupidity” that causes you to ignore all the scriptually sound evidence we are all showing you here, then it must be your “ego” and “pride” that will not let you reliquish those long held false beliefs of yours.

I await your response to the John 1:1 post.

peace and love,
mike

October 17, 2010 at 8:16 pm#220280