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JA………..Nice Speech………But scriptural first of all does not mention of any Preexistent activity of Jesus before his berth, and to say the Hebrews would have worshiped him is an ASSUMPTION on your part, and as Far as His name goes others have had that name also as, Joshua the son of Non and others to.
Ja you say Jesus existed as an Angel before his berth on earth , where (EXACTLY) is that Written, i have yet to see it written anywhere, O that is right another ASSUMPTION on your part.
the reason i can not see preexistent aspect is because it is a ASSUMPTION on your Part> No scripture show Jesus' Preexistence so why accept that false teaching and if you are going to except that then why not become a TRINITARIAN they beleaguer that also, as i have said Preexistence and Trinitarians are both in the same boat, they both believe in Jesus' preexistence and both (WORSHIP) Jesus, as some kind of GOD or demigod or super Angle as you all do.
But JA how ius it you can not see that John was addressing this idea of the Separation of Jesus From our (EXACT) Identity , When he when he wrote about the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist , what do you thing that Spirit is then. who were the man Antichrist at his time and what were they saying about Jesus, Check out the Gnostic's for a start and you might come to enlightenment on this subject and begin to see how it all relates to the Spirit of Antichrist which has completely taken over Christianity and its teachings. It all stems from this concept of a PREEXISTENCE JESUS who exist in some other form as a Being before he was Morphed into a Human. The whole concept of the (different Identity) of Jesus from us (IS) the SPIRIT (intellect) of ANTICHRIST that is exactly what it is. This concept started at the time of the apostle and grow unto what it is today, this separatist teaching distorts the whole plan and purpose of Jesus as a Human being becoming perfected by GOD after His Berth on earth and destory the work of GOD (IN) a (FOREORDAINED) MAN called Jesus who came into existence at his Berth by Mary . Scripture is full of that announcement of this Messiah that was to come from His brethren of the root and stock of King David a Prophesied man of the seed of a Women and and the offspring of Abraham and King David . No where does any scripture say Jesus preexisted as any kind of being before his berth , just in the plan and will of God is the only place he existed, until he was Born , Just like Cyrus , Jeremiah, John the Baptist and others. And you say i don't understand, no my friend it is you and all Trinitarians and Preexistence that don't Understand. This is that you have all been duped into believing in false teachings by the Apostate Churches.
And you are right it is NOT GIVEN ME TO SEE IT, THANK GOD FOR THAT, For that to happen the DELUDING SPIRIT SENT FROM GOD WOULD HAVE TO BE WORKING IN ME. 2Ths 2………..They recieved not the love of the truth therefore GOD sent unto them a (DELUDING SPIRIT) (Why) IN ORDER FOR THEM TO (BELIEVE) (THE LIE) . That LIE is what you Believe in without even realizing it, because it is so prevalent in all Christendom. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Hey Gene. I don't believe you have the truth on this subject.
But let's imagine that you converted all of us that do not believe your doctrine about Jesus being created 2000 years ago.
Let's imagine that one by one we said, “you know what, you are right”.
Now what?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,00:05) But scriptural first of all does not mention of any Preexistent activity of Jesus before his berth,
The Word was WITH God. The Word became flesh.
God created all things through Jesus Christ.
Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”.
His beginnings are from ancient times.Oh yeah Gene. Scripture says nothing of the sort.
We keep forgetting to add the word “Pre-ordained into these scriptures. But trusty Gene always remembers to add that word to these scriptures even though these scriptures don't mention it. Keep it up Gene.Have you thought about writing the Preordained version of the Bible. That is the one where you add those words to the scriptures that the writers neglected to do.
T8………….Lets check pout those MYSTERYS, Please explaine how a WORD can Become FLESH is that rallly Possible, I can understand how a word can come to be (IN) a Flesh person, But a Word actually become FLESH. Explain Please.
God created all things (THROUGH) Jesus O really, then why does GOD say He created all (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF? And why did Paul say it also Say that God this one GOD made all he world and the sea and all came from HIM.
Lets Read……..1 Co 8:5…..> For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, )as there be gods many, and lords many,).7..> Howbeit there is but ONE GOD The Father, OF(denotes organ) Whom are (ALL) things. and we IN Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, BY(for cause of) Whom are all things and we BY (for cause of) Him.
This is saying the very purpose of GOD for all the creation was for the cause of a Perfected Mankind and Jesus is that Perfect man and we are to be Just like Him in EVERY WAY, this is the purpose for the Physical creation. that was Paul's Point rather you understand it or not. And non of this non of this changes Scriptures that say GOD (ALONE and BY HIMSELF Created everything that exists. BUT your MYSTERY teachings change the words of GOD to allow fro another Creator and denies GOD'S words.
“Before Abraham i am.”………What does that mean, do you see there He said I (existed) before Abraham, if so the How could Scripture say He was the (SON) of Abraham and the Son of David, of there roots and offspring. AH but MYSTERY RELIGION Figures out a WAY Right.
His beginning were from ancient times , Most assuredly they were because He was In the Plan and WILL of GOD Before He ever made the earth and everything in it , Jesus was to be the (First) Man from Mankind to be born into the Kingdom of God , with that was the reason God made all this Physical universe in the first place and everything in to , that was his Goal all along, Jesus was the (first ) of Many Brothers to attain that goal from the Human race. Nothing MYSTERIOUS about IT God had a plan all along and is caring it out in his creation. Simple and Clear if your eyes have not been blinded by false “Christianity”. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours T8……………………………..gene
Gene,
What if Adam had not sinned?And what is happening to your writing…
Are you ok. There seems to be something amiss…
Ja………If i had my Editing rights back i could have straightened out the misspelled words . Sorry for that, but if you try you can figure out what i was saying.
You ask what if ADAM had not sinned, as if that were a possibility, with is limited understanding and having no relationship with EVIL in his life yet. Adam and Eve did exactly as GOD know they Would. They Choses from there own WILLS and believe me those were NOT FREE WILL working (IN) them but a driven WILL>
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Gene,
No Church teaches JustAskin. It is the Spirit of God that teaches him.
And i see you have chosen the epitaph for your grave stone in '2 Ths 2', but it is already written in your heart and mind.
Therefore I congratulate you on your foresight.
Gene:
Quote Please explaine how a WORD can Become FLESH is that rallly Possible,
Can you undestand God's “Spokesman” being called God's “Word”?Gene:
Quote God created all things (THROUGH) Jesus O really, then why does GOD say He created all (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF?
If God chose to create all things “through” His Son, it is still God creating all things, right? Besides, you listed 1 Cor 8:6 which clearly explains all things are FROM God, which means God created all things. But it also says they all came THROUGH Jesus. Paul further explains that both are our “Saviors” by saying we all live FOR God, but we live THROUGH Jesus.Gene:
Quote Jesus is that Perfect man and we are to be Just like Him in EVERY WAY,
That's right Gene. We are to strive to be “Just like HIM”. That says nothing to imply Jesus must have been nothing but a human being “Just like US” from his very beginning.Gene:
Quote What does that mean, do you see there He said I (existed) before Abraham, if so the How could Scripture say He was the (SON) of Abraham and the Son of David, of there roots and offspring.
Why don't you answer your own question, Gene? You admit that scripture says he was BEFORE Abraham, although you twist the last part. Scripture does NOT say Jesus was “of David's roots and offspring”. It says Jesus IS both the Root AND the Offspring of David. So answer your own point: How could Jesus say he was BEFORE Abraham? This one also threw the Pharisees for a loop because, like you, they expected a Messiah who would be nothing but flesh like them. That's why Jesus went to lengths to explain it to them:41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.Like you, they could not grasp this concept. But unlike you, they held their tongues in acknowledgement of their lack of understanding, instead of defiling the Holy Scriptures in an effort to be “right” about their own imagined “doctrine”.
So Gene, why exactly WOULD David call his own son “my Lord”?
Gene:
Quote His beginning were from ancient times , Most assuredly they were because He was In the Plan and WILL of GOD Before He ever made the earth and everything in it
So you are saying all of our “beginnings” were from ancient times since God knew all of us before the creation of the world? It is most interesting to see the lengths to which you will go to deny scripture Gene. And for what? The only reason is your tenacity to cling to your selfish “WISH” for Jesus to be exactly like us because you feel it gives you a better chance at accomplishing what Jesus accomplished.Yet you refuse to tell me about ANYTHING you've ever done in your entire life to follow Jesus that you couldn't have done if he pre-existed.
You refuse to explain to me how someone who already was in the likeness of a human being could empty himself and be made in the likeness of a human being.
You refuse to tell me what Jesus meant when he said “I” “HAD” “GLORY” “IN THE PRESENCE OF THE FATHER” “BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD“.
You refuse to tell me who the “Word” was who “became flesh”, “dwelled among us” and “had the glory of an ONLY BEGOTTEN SON”. You ignore Rev 19:13 which clearly tells us that “Word” was none other than God's only begotten Son “through whom He made the universe”. (Heb 1:2)
It's irritating sometimes Gene. You have many people pointing out many clear scriptures that would make no sense whatsoever if Jesus didn't pre-exist…..but you just ignore them in an effort to keep posting your wishes and showing everyone here that you are willing to twist scriptures to the point that they are “babbling nonsense” – just to keep your “WISH”. It's frustrating and saddening for me, brother.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
Gene is just having a laugh. It is quite clear that his arguments are 'mostly' false.When Gene is making a post it is necessary for him to explore ways to defeat valid plausible arguments in the same way that WJ and Stu need to in order to maintain their views.
And then it turns into a game of just posting the same minimal ideas in different arrangements, permutations and combinations.
Gene knows he is posting counter to Scriptural truth, and, it is frustrating to try and make him expose his false doctrine because the 'Satan' in him has locked him into the lie that he enveloped himself in.
At this time, it is necessary to give him room to escape his trap but hold him close so he has an alternate belief to grab hold of, namely, the truth.
Witness the story of the man who cleansed his house of wickedness but left it empty. Was it not re-occupied with more wickedness than before it was cleansed.Gene,
Have you heard of Kim Jung Eill, president of North Korea?
Did you know he has a son, Kim Jung Yun?
No?Nor did anyone outside of the presidential palace until daddy revealed him as 'president in waiting' in the past few weeks.
Was that Son, then, not preExisting because he was only revealed when his father, the president, said to the people, 'This is my Son in whom I am well pleased.'
And to others here, the president has other Sons, but only to this one does he say, 'You are my Son'.
He has many Sons, but only to one did he say, 'You are my Son' meaning that this Son will take his place as ruler of the kingdom of North Korea.
Ja………..Amazing how you twist up what is said, your very good at it i can give you that much like Mike also is. I am not going into all you accusation of Me but i will say this I believe your JA spirit is your own mouth speaking and has nothing to do GOD or His Spirit, but more with the accuser of the brothern Spirit, and that may become your epitaph. Here is a sample of what i mean YOU gave this elaborate speech and analogy of This is MY Son thing, about a north Korean Son , but one very important item you beguilingly left out, that Leader did not say that (THIS DAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU) now did He? God said that about Jesus now didn't He? Jesus became a Son of GOD at the Jordan River when He recieved GOD Spirit into him. Again your effort is to destory our exactness with Jesus and that Is the Spirit of the Antichrist rather you and your JA Spirit see it or not. IMO
Mike……….. Again don't talk down to me, i full well Know Jesus was a spokesman of Gods Word to Us , I never ever said or implied any difference. I have quoted many times here Where it says “God who spoke to us through the Prophets has in these last days spoken to us through a Son”. Why don't you try to include the complete Context of what i was saying in stead of being deceiving and Pulling little parts out hear and there and trying to make appear what i am not saying for a change.
If you have a problem with 1 Cor 8:5 ……… Do a word study and you might be supervised what you fine. I know what i am saying does not contradict the old testament or the New., But what you Preexistences say most certainly and Trinitarians does contradict them both.
And Yes (ALL) of our Beginnings were from before the creation in fact from the very foundations of the earth Just as Jesus was also. God had it all planned out before hand rather you understand that or not is irrelevant Seeing you are a Separatist and separate Jesus from our exact identity as all Preexistences and trinitarians do.
Mike you can believe any way you want to that is fine with me and I will believe the way i see it OK> Your forcing of the text to say what in fact it does not truly say is something you will have to deal with. IF GOD has sent you a deluding Spirit in order to fall for all that false teaching and JA'S self professing Gibber then go for it .
peace and love………………………….gene
Gene,
Do you believe Jesus was the only sinless one on earth as scripture says,
Do you believe Jesus was risen from the dead,
Do you believe Jesus went – in the flesh – to the Father
Do you believe He was seated at God's right hand,
And will return ?If I remember right you do believe all of these clear scriptual truths, iv seen people here who are pre-existancers, who deny Jesus was risen in the flesh but spirit only so who is worse ?
That would mean you believe what is clear and the things not so clear you have a different understanding of it, as does Kerwin, Marty, Nick (I think) and others, do I have that right ?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,01:47) T8………….Lets check pout those MYSTERYS, Please explaine how a WORD can Become FLESH is that rallly Possible, I can understand how a word can come to be (IN) a Flesh person, But a Word actually become FLESH. Explain Please
It is not about working it out with your intellect but understanding that which is revealed.- The Word was WITH God.
- Jesus had glory WITH God before the world began.
- The Word beCAME flesh.
- Jesus CAME in the flesh.
- God created all things THROUGH the Word.
- God created all things THROUGH Jesus Christ.
- Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.
- Adam wasn't.
I know you deny this, but you cannot rightly deny it.
It is all written. We both know that.I agree with that which is written, whereas, that which is written is an offence to you.
That is why you are on the offence day and night regarding this.
May God grant you grace despite your opposition to scripture and what he has revealed.shimmer, you mentioned something that I would like to know. I believe that Jesus preexisted His birth on earth. I also have not seen who believes this, that they deny that Jesus came in the flesh and died for us. He did however not return to Jehovah God in the flesh. In
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus was a Spirit Being before He became a man. He emptied Himself
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Now ask yourself could He emptied Himself to become in the likeness of men, if He was that already? I don't think so……
Also flesh and blood cannot enter Gods Kingdom….. Nobody has seen God except He that was with God before.
So one one point you are wrong, the other points I agree…..
Jesus will return as KING OF KINGS NAD LORD OF LORDS. As The Word of God. in
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
I also believe that The Word of God is a title, just like God is. Jesus also has a name. Yeshua.
Rev. 18 goes alongside of John 1:1-14.
Gene does not believe in this however….Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 17 2010,10:06) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,01:47) T8………….Lets check pout those MYSTERYS, Please explaine how a WORD can Become FLESH is that rallly Possible, I can understand how a word can come to be (IN) a Flesh person, But a Word actually become FLESH. Explain Please
It is not about working it out with your intellect but understanding that which is revealed.- The Word was WITH God.
- Jesus had glory WITH God before the world began.
- The Word beCAME flesh.
- Jesus CAME in the flesh.
- God created all things THROUGH the Word.
- God created all things THROUGH Jesus Christ.
- Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.
- Adam wasn't.
I know you deny this, but you cannot rightly deny it.
It is all written. We both know that.I agree with that which is written, whereas, that which is written is an offence to you.
That is why you are on the offence day and night regarding this.
May God grant you grace despite your opposition to scripture and what he has revealed.
Hi t8 I find it amazing that you just made a post almost exactly what I was doing and did behind you….
Peace and Love Irene.Gene,
Tut tut,…such vehemence against a truth has exposed your inner deeds.
I did not post an 'exact' analogy…if so, i would have posted as you modified my argument to mean.
YOU WISHED that I had posted the extra parts…but i did not because I knew what i was saying…
Your attempt at a response only serves to expose you. You rip your clothes in anguish at being found out…that you see the analogy that the presidents son was preExisting BEFORE he was revealed to the people…just as Jesus preExisted before he was revealed to mankind as man.
The pesident has other sons but chose this one to be 'his [special] son'. It cannot be said he only has 'one son', therefore 'son' must carry added meaning when referenced to 'successor', in the same way God has many sons but to only the one who is to be Heir did he say, 'You are my Son'.
Why does God only call Jesus 'My Son' when we know know that all entities with the spirit of God, is a Son of God?
Why is Isaac called 'Only Son' of Abraham by the apostes when we know that Abraham had many sons?The answer is, oh so simple…only the one(s) 'subject to the Promise' are called 'begotten Sons of God' contextually over all other 'Sons of God'.
Sons and sons… Do we not also say, one man to another, 'You['re] the man!'
The one being called 'Man' is already, undeniably, a man already, but the saying adds a new higher dimensional meaning.
In the same way, 'You are my Son' gives added higher dimensional meaning for being said.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,09:27) Mike……….. Again don't talk down to me, i full well Know Jesus was a spokesman of Gods Word to Us
Hi Gene,I am unaware of any “talking down” I did to you. Sorry for any misunderstanding on my part.
You say you know full well Jesus was God's spokesman, yet you have a hard time with him being “the Word” who became flesh and had the glory of an only begotten Son……even though you admit Jesus IS called “the Word of God” in Revelation.
Why can you not connect the dots?
And thanks for totally ignoring all the points I made in that last post……..AGAIN.
mike
Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 17 2010,09:34) If I remember right you do believe all of these clear scriptual truths, iv seen people here who are pre-existancers, who deny Jesus was risen in the flesh but spirit only so who is worse ?
Hi Shimmer,Read 1 Cor 15. The whole chapter is about the resurrection, but starting in verse 35, Paul clearly explains about the difference between the “spiritual bodies” of those in heaven and “fleshly bodies” of those on earth.
And it is from that chapter that Irene quoted “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kindom of God”.
peace and love,
mike
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