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No, THESE questions Gene:
Jesus said “I” and “ME” and that he “HAD” glory with the Father before the world. Do you see that? Jesus said “HE” “HAD” “GLORY”.
Please address these words Gene, because if it was a “preordained” glory, then how could Jesus have said he “HAD” it already before the creation of the world?
When answering, please keep in mind the info Kathi shared with us.
peace and love,
mikeGene,
The verse in Isaiah 45 has God doing the action and it is prophetic (looking ahead) but the verse about the Son talking about the glory that He had was talking about something that already happened. You are comparing two completely different things. Can you show me something that someone did in the active voice that referred to an action in the past before they were born?
Thanks!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 15 2010,13:09) No, THESE questions Gene: Jesus said “I” and “ME” and that he “HAD” glory with the Father before the world. Do you see that? Jesus said “HE” “HAD” “GLORY”.
Please address these words Gene, because if it was a “preordained” glory, then how could Jesus have said he “HAD” it already before the creation of the world?
When answering, please keep in mind the info Kathi shared with us.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,Wasn't Barley stumped on this verse as well?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHe existed in the form of God/with divine nature and emptied himself and took on human nature, then died, rose again, and is seated at the right-hand of the Father in the glory that he has with him before the world begun.
You deny this Gene, therefore you deny scripture and you deny Jesus own words, not to mention Paul and others too.
We choose to believe. You are allowed to be a skeptic. After all, you have a will that enables you to choose not to believe this.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 15 2010,22:12) He existed in the form of God/with divine nature and emptied himself and took on human nature, then died, rose again, and is seated at the right-hand of the Father in the glory that he has with him before the world begun. You deny this Gene, therefore you deny scripture and you deny Jesus own words, not to mention Paul and others too.
We choose to believe. You are allowed to be a skeptic. After all, you have a will that enables you to choose not to believe this.
Hi T8,Calling Gene a 'skeptic' scares me,
because we know despite him refusing
to believe in preexistence, he is still a believer!
I see in to many other forums people getting kicked off
for seeing doctrines differently that those who run the forums!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEdj,
It is testament to the goodwill of t8 that many of us are still able to post in this forum considering our wacky views.
However, it has been pointed out many times that without the resister, there could be no scriptural growth. For the resisters provide the impetus for digging deeper in the recesses and crevices of scriptures, and also past the devices of Satan and wrongful thinking concerning Scriptures. Otherwise we would still believe in Christmas and Saint Nickalaus, and Easter with Easter Eggs and Hot Cross buns, and that wearing a Cross or carrying a 'Saint' on chain will protect us. Or that we will all go to heaven when we die, like they tell little children. And that we will all burn in hell if we are bad, with Satan in a red fancy dress outfit will torture us 'to death' pulling, hacking, burning, stretching our fleshly body and limbs apart (?Spiritual body?) for eternity?? ?? ??(I thought Satan was to be disposed of, and even Death itself?)
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 15 2010,22:12) He existed in the form of God/with divine nature and emptied himself and took on human nature, then died, rose again, and is seated at the right-hand of the Father in the glory that he has with him before the world begun. You deny this Gene, therefore you deny scripture and you deny Jesus own words, not to mention Paul and others too.
We choose to believe. You are allowed to be a skeptic. After all, you have a will that enables you to choose not to believe this.
T8………….Again you are saying Paul is talking about a pre-earth existence of Jesus that is falsely assumed by you and other preexistences also. Paul was talking about his past EARTH EXISTENCE No a pre-earth existence. The context of what Paul was saying should tell you that clearly. Paul was saying when Jesus existed or was existing on earth He had the nature of GOD Via the Holy Spirit He had (IN) HIM. When Paul wrote that Jesus was no longer on earth so he related to Jesus as (existing or existed) AS A PAST TENSE because Jesus was no longer on earth but was in the presence of GOD . That was all Paul was referencing , you are forcing the text to say what in fact it is not saying.peace and love……………………….gene
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 16 2010,01:09) Edj, It is testament to the goodwill of t8 that many of us are still able to post in this forum considering our wacky views.
However, it has been pointed out many times that without the resister, there could be no scriptural growth. For the resisters provide the impetus for digging deeper in the recesses and crevices of scriptures, and also past the devices of Satan and wrongful thinking concerning Scriptures. Otherwise we would still believe in Christmas and Saint Nickalaus, and Easter with Easter Eggs and Hot Cross buns, and that wearing a Cross or carrying a 'Saint' on chain will protect us. Or that we will all go to heaven when we die, like they tell little children. And that we will all burn in hell if we are bad, with Satan in a red fancy dress outfit will torture us 'to death' pulling, hacking, burning, stretching our fleshly body and limbs apart (?Spiritual body?) for eternity?? ?? ??(I thought Satan was to be disposed of, and even Death itself?)
JA……….But coming part way out is not good enough we must come all the way out of hundreds of False teaching that False Christianity has created over time. Like Preexistence of Jesus and Jesus being a GOD or object of Worship or something other than a MAN. All of which separates our Identity with Him, and GOD the FATHER, all stemming from the concepts of the Gnostic's and Roman-Greek false pagan teachings , the problem is People don't realize the existent of these false teaching and how they effect our relationship with Jesus and GOD the Father. It is no wonder we do not see the Miracles being done today as they were then this corruption has infected every aspect of religion today that there is hardly a trace of truth left. IMOGene,
It is 'impossible for sinful man' to come all the way out until God Almighty, through Jesus, removes the fleshly coat and puts on the Spiritual on us.Not even David, nor Solomon, nor Moses, nor Abraham, nor even those who walked WITH Christ, did that.
But God will give concession through Jesus for our attempts.
This is described in the example given for the representative Churches in Asia.
Each Church had it's fault, even while claiming to be Holy. Some where better than others and, one, i think, was condemned.
In any case, where did I speak about coming out in part but not whole in my previous post? I gave representative examples of wrongful belief that many still hold to due to lack of wisdom and understanding and traditions and 'wanting to run with the crowd'.
And Gene,
If the Scriptures say, 'Jesus emptied himself and came in the form of man…or was found in the form of man…lived a Holy life, was scorned, suffered, died, and was raised again from the dead to be seated at the right hand of God the Father'…
How can you say that Jesus did not preExist 'before he emptied himself'.
Surely the water must have bern in the cup before the water in the cup was emptied out of the cup?Witness: 'Yes, your honor, the man got out of the car and went into the shop'
Prosecution lawyer: 'Your honor, you see, it is as I have been saying and as this witness corroborates: 'The man was NOT in the car before he got out and went into the shop'.
The witness is saying that the man went into the shop and it was only afterwards he was seen getting out of the car'
Judge: 'Urrumph,!! It would appear, my learned prosecuting gentleman, that there seems to be some element of skewing of the timeline in your summation of the events as outlined by the faithful and true witness'Hi Gene,
We all preexisted!
2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)To all pre-existancers,
Do you believe someone is 'unsaved' and is not one of Gods just because he/she doesnt believe in the pre-existance of Jesus ? and just because he/she thinks Jesus was just a man ?
Where in scripture does it say this?
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 16 2010,11:14) Hi Gene, We all preexisted!
2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
edjwere do you get those things ,are you righting a book??
if you can not stick to scriptures you are not accepting them.
Pierre
Terrica……..EDJ is talking in the plan and will of GOD , in that (SENSE) we did all Preexist the same as Jesus did. GET IT? “For whom he did foreknow them He did predestined to be made like unto his SON”, But we did not exist as Beings before we were born not as far as i Know anyway.
peace and love………………………..gene
Terricca………..After turning back a page it does appear that EDJ believes we preexisted as some kind of Being before we we born on earth> That is obviously not my view though. There seems to be no end of this preexistence thing even thou not one scripture says anyone existed as any kind of Being before their berth except GOD himself and Angles and non of them died and was Morphed into anything as far as i know and that includes Jesus.
peace and love……………………………gene
Shimmer,
I'm not quite understanding the question.Edj is a little mistaken. God is talking about 'those that he chose to do his will.'
They are saved from time because God can see forwards and backwards in time whereas we cannot.
'Flatlanders' cannot turn round. They can walk backwards but can't SEE behind them.
There seems to be those in this forum who are claiming the 'prize' awaiting the Saints, Disciples, Apostles, elders, etc., as if it were their own. They include themselves in the 'We' and the 'them' who are 'saved from everlasting'.
Please stop this thinking..
Think that 'You' are part of the 'Hope' only.
To ALL……..What does it mean that we set in the Heaven's with Christ NOW. are we in the Heavens yet so why does it say we are? This should be good for the preexistences to figure out.
Eph 2:4……….> But God who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5…> Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved) 6….> And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Tell me you preexistences has that rally happened yet are you raised up and sit in Heavenly place yet?. It say it has>
Problem is as Martian said you do not understand Hebrew Idioms and the way they thought and spoke many time as it it already happened because GOD said it, and to them it was as sure as a done deal.
The Glory Jesus had with the Father was a done deal even before it ever happened , Jesus did not rally have that glory himself unto he recieved it after His resurrection that was a foreordained Glory given him by GOD before He ever existed or attained it.
peace and love………………gene
Gene,
Your post has 'desperate' written all over it.You are mixing up concepts.
In fact you are walking a line between two concepts and flop from one to the other at various times and in various ways.
Jesus was indeed existing in the mind of God. The role he performed was 'predicted' for one to accomplish.
Check the wording in Revelation, 'None was found worthy to open the scroll'.
So, indeed, no one in heaven was found worthy to save mankind, no one of the princes was found worthy to die for mankind, no one of mankind was sinless enough to save his own kind, God chose the only one who WAS worthy, the one who was to acquire the name 'Jesus' and 'Christ', the one that God held as 'the MOST Righteous' because that one loved Righteousness MORE than the others (Who are 'the others'?, they would have to be at least on par in ability to be set in comparison)
So, after 'emptying' his divinity…he became 'Man'.
So, yes, Gene, 'Jesus' came into being at his conception and birth as man.
But he existed in Angelic form along with 'the others' before being 'Sent' by the father in the form of man.
Also note that God is called, 'the Father'..'the' Father. Does this imply that God is 'exclusively' Father to Jesus, that Jesus is 'exclusively' the 'Son of God'?
“Pray to 'the' Father”, “My Father in heaven”, “All who walk in the way of God are Son's of God…and therefore God…is also their Father”
So, in what way is Jesus 'Son of God' more than others so he can say, 'What if say that I am the Son of God'?
Well, 'Son of God in the flesh', 'the only Son of God in the flesh' being the only sinless one of mankind.So, even 'preExistent' or not, the way of God is to believe that Jesus 'came as man' in whatever way that means, lived, performed in the 'predicted' manner sinlessly, was scorned, tried, convicted and 'lifted up' to his death on the cross, was buried for three night and days, was raised in bodily form on third day by the Holy Spirit of God, glorified by God, taken up to heaven in Spirit form (the form of God) and seated on the right hand of the throne (in the power and authority) of God Almighty, the Father, YHVH, and set as King over the Father's kingdom to reign until all powers and authorities on earth and in the heavens (note the plural term) are subdued unto him.
All this to his glory, honor and praise, so that the father who sent him will likewise be glorified, honored and praised…and also Worshipped.
But Gene, better still that you also know that he existed 'because he was Sent'…your problem is now you have set your mind to say 'nay'. But Gene, it takes only courage to say, 'ok, i was mistaken'.
Do you have that courage?
We have nothing to say against you if you do. We have only 'Welcome' to say to you, if you do.
JustAskin has said at many times and in various places that 'Jesus' was not exposed in heaven by God because, had he been, he would have been worshipped by the Hebrews/Jews as a God. So he was 'hidden in the palm of the hand of God' until the time of his coming as man.
This is why Gene cannot see the 'preExistence' aspect. It is not given to him to see this by a wise and knowledgeable God but for him to act only as a resister so as to expose others of similar wronful thinking.
But Gene, it is now time to drop the resister element, to 'come in from the cold', as it were.
The warmth of the truth of God and Jesus is prepared for you and the door is open.
A 'Welcome Mat' awaits your weary, cold and tired feet.
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 16 2010,12:48) JustAskin has said at many times and in various places that 'Jesus' was not exposed in heaven by God because, had he been, he would have been worshipped by the Hebrews/Jews as a God. So he was 'hidden in the palm of the hand of God' until the time of his coming as man. This is why Gene cannot see the 'preExistence' aspect. It is not given to him to see this by a wise and knowledgeable God but for him to act only as a resister so as to expose others of similar wronful thinking.
But Gene, it is now time to drop the resister element, to 'come in from the cold', as it were.
The warmth of the truth of God and Jesus is prepared for you and the door is open.
A 'Welcome Mat' awaits your weary, cold and tired feet.
Good posts, however I think we are going to have to wait for Gene, until the cows come home…. He is not going to see this. I hope and pray that I am wrong, but knowing Gene MMMMMMMMMM…….Or until Christ returns and will teach all truths……
Peace and Love Irene
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