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Gene,
For the umpteenth time, I have heard the same dialogue over and over from you. Why is it that I answer your scripture, but you refuse to answer my simple question? I don't want to keep reading your same thoughts…….I got it the first time you ever posted it. You have since posted the same exact thing like a hundred times. Please……..can we honestly just deal with the scriptures?
Gene:
Quote Mike……….So what was John saying then when he said that those who deny Christ coming in the Flesh were Antichrist and that was the Spirit of Antichrist, this spirit of denial of Jesus COMING INTO EXISTENCE IN THE FLESH>
Gene, many people then denied that Jesus was the promised Messiah, let alone that he was God's only begotten Son through whom everything was created. John is saying that those who don't believe that the Messiah was God's Son, who left heaven and CAME in the flesh had the spirit of the antichrist in them.Gene:
Quote Another thing i notices You failed to deal with God Telling DAVID that from His (loins) would come a SoN who would rule over His Kingdom and establish it for ever.
I did deal with it. What do you want me to say? Jesus DID come from David……..ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.Gene:
Quote Not where doe Jesus ever say He preexisted His Berth on Earth as any Kind of Being , If he did then Post it
I not only posted it Gene – I started a thread about it. John 17:5 has Jesus asking the Father to glorify him with the same glory he had in His presence before the creation of the world. There it is. Jesus point blank says that not only did he have an existence before the creation of the world, but he had glory also.Gene:
Quote We are Joint Heirs with him Just as scripture says.
The point is not that Jesus was exactly like us. The point is that if we do what we're supposed to, WE CAN BE LIKE HIM.Please answer my question Gene.
peace and love,
mikeMIke……….Wrong………Jesus did not say he preexisted before the World as a BEING at all, He said the Glory He HAD with GOD EXISTED. That Glory was a preexisting Glory from the Foundations of the Earth, He was the SEED of the Women that was to Bruise the head of the serpent. Jesus was to be the FIRST MAN to Be BORN into the Kingdom of GOD and recieve eternal Life and that was the Glory Jesus was talking about having from the beginning. Jesus full well knew His pre- ordained Glory and even all the saints have also a Pre-ordained Glory also. If you wan i can produce scriptures to back that up.
You also fail to understand the reasoning of the Gnostic's that John was dealing with, so you make the assumptions he was talking about Jesus past existence when in fact he was Not. Neither was Paul in 2 Ths 2, dealing with nothing more then Jesus being perceived as not a Man but a GOD of demigod or being who people worship and separate from there likeness and creating an Idolatry relationship with GOD the FATHER as a result, as you do and other preexistences do.
Go look up the Gnostic's and what they taught and you will see (May be) how that relates to your teachings and Trinitarians. All who move Jesus; Identity from our selves are Separatist and are not only against GOD but Jesus also.
You complain because i say the same thing over and over as if you don't do that. Then you say you agree about Jesus according to the Flesh as if there were any other Jesus that was Born to Mary and a son of David and Abraham , then you through you trick scriptures that can be taken many was to try to prove your dogmas of preexistence of Jesus as a Being of some kind which you or anyone else has yet to show exactly what or who that being you so positively proclaim is. We have given you solid Scripture that describe Jesus and Where he came from and How he came into existence , you on the other hand just forced out of context texts which you draw all kinds of suppositions from, As you have with the GOD as our “SOVEREIGN LORD” thing, making it a might include Jesus thing. You do this with all the Scriptures we have posted you corrupt the wording to fit you dogmas an false teachings. Never coming to a solid understanding of Jesus or His earthly existence as strictly a human being then and NOW. So don't be surprised if you are separated from Him, remember you are the one who preaches separation of Jesus to Us and our identity with HIM.peace and love……………………..gene
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2010,12:58) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,12:47) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2010,12:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,12:18) Mike………..You here is just one < To him who overcomes (EVEN AS I HAVE) would not work because I would not be the same as Jesus if he were a different kind of Being having a past perfect existence , it would not be fair to ask me to overcome Just as He had. Because He had a advantage over Me. So how could i in REAL terms do it (EVEN) as HE did. Martian brought that out and you failed to answer it even though you continue to say you have, but in truth you have not. peace and love…………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the idea of pre-existence!
You are really obsessed with this idea of preexistence; huh?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
EDJ…………It have everything to do with it, because that separation of Jesus from our Identity in any way establishes a Separation . I as well a John are certainly obsessed with that false teaching and Paul was to. Because it is this very iniquity that has created all these separations that exist in Christianity to this very day. And it is most certainly the teachings of the Antichrist that impregnates all Christendom today. It is part of the GREAT LIE Mentioned on 2 Ths 2.peace and love…………………..gene
Hi Gene,Please explain (to us all here at h-net) what preexistence has to do with 2 Ths 2 ?
Hi Gene,You still have neglected to answer my question.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2010,14:16) Very good Gene……..a scripture! 
Mike ………….Please don't talk down to me , i have post hundreds if not thousands of Scriptures Here on Heaven Net way before you ever showed up with your two cents worth of nothing. IMOpeace and love…………………gene
EDJ……….. The Preexistence of Jesus has everything to do with it, Who has now taken his seat in the temple of GOD and is being Displayed as a GOD and Being Worshiped as a GOD , Is it Not Jesus, or do you know anyone else who is sitting in the (true) temple of GOD other than Jesus. He is put in that position by all who say He PREEXISTED as a GOD or a demigod or angle and Worshiped by those saying that. They have created a False (IMAGE) of Jesus which changes Him into a Idol of theirs and that change turns him into the MAN of SIN , they have replaced GOD in their thinking with Jesus as the creator of all things and placing him above all things worshiped, God is no longer the (SOVEREIGN) LORD to them, This is the LIE that God caused those who love Not the truth to recieve into their thinking by the deluding Spirit He has sent into them in order for them to believe this LIE, they now preach which is the LIE of the Preexistences and Trinitarians which makes Jesus more than a HUMAN BEING. It separates Us and our Identity with Jesus on a HUMAN LEVEL. All who preach and teach these things are indeed ANTICHRISTS.
peace and love……………………………….gene
Gene:
Quote MIke……….Wrong………Jesus did not say he preexisted before the World as a BEING at all, He said the Glory He HAD with GOD EXISTED.
Do you hear yourself, brother? Jesus' “glory” pre-existed, but not him? No Gene, the BEING Jesus said “glorify ME” with the glory “I HAD” before the creation of the world. What does he mean by “ME” and “I”? And who is it that “HAD” this glory before the world was created?Gene:
Quote and even all the saints have also a Pre-ordained Glory also. If you wan i can produce scriptures to back that up.
Show me a scripture that says the Saint's “glory” existed IN THE PRESENCE of God before the creation of the world. You act as if “glory” is a being that can “live and breathe”, and it's just hanging out existing with God waiting for someone to come and claim it.The rest of your post is just the same old rhetoric all over again.
Will you PLEASE answer my question?
Can someone who already IS a human being be made in the likeness of a human being?
If you refuse to answer my question like you have for over a month now, then at least post some more “non-preexistence” scriptures………one at a time.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 12 2010,16:55) Mike ………….Please don't talk down to me , i have post hundreds if not thousands of Scriptures Here on Heaven Net way before you ever showed up
Hi Gene,I meant it as a joke, but fair enough. I apologize.
peace and love,
mikeMike………..The Glory Jesus (HAD) with the FATHER Was a Preordained GLORY , Jesus never recieved that Glory until he attained unto it After the Resurrection. He was a Human Being who GOD (FOREORDAINED) unto that GLORY. Much like Cyrus , He had a (FOREORDAINED) Glory also With GOD many years before He was ever BORN and came into existence, WE who Believe also Have Glory Foreordained for Us. Jesus even said the GLORY you have GIVEN ME I GIVE UNTO THEM. WE are being Glorified together with Jesus and all of this Glory was PREORDAINED GLORY by GOD the FATHER> we are said to be seated in heavenly places with Jesus now. Jesus coming into existence as a Man who GOD foreordained who full well knew the Glory GOD had Reserved for HIM and this Glory was way before the world was and before he ever came into existence. Yes He had that GLORY it was reserved for HIM in God before the creation of the world.
Mystery Pagan religion has confused many things but we must come out of it and seek the truth . IMO
peace and love……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 12 2010,16:55) Mike ………….Please don't talk down to me , i have post hundreds if not thousands of Scriptures Here on Heaven Net way before you ever showed up with your two cents worth of nothing. IMO
Man, I remember when nothing cost nothing.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 13 2010,23:35) The Glory Jesus (HAD) with the FATHER Was a Preordained GLORY
You add the word preordained to anything you wish.
Anyone could do the same, but it wouldn't make it right.e.g., if you wanted to, you could say that the Jesus of the New Testament is not real yet, but was a parable for someone ordained in our future.
You could in fact nullify any part of the bible with that excuse.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 13 2010,23:35) Mike………..The Glory Jesus (HAD) with the FATHER Was a Preordained GLORY , Jesus never recieved that Glory until he attained unto it After the Resurrection. He was a Human Being who GOD (FOREORDAINED) unto that GLORY.
Hi Gene,You didn't answer the questions. Jesus said “I” and “ME” and that he “HAD” glory with the Father before the world. Do you see that? Jesus said “HE” “HAD” “GLORY”.
Please address these words Gene, because if it was a “preordained” glory, then how could Jesus have said he “HAD” it already before the creation of the world?
mike
Hi Mike and Gene,
Sorry to butt in here but the glory that 'He had' is written in the active voice and should put an end to the discussion. If the Son only had the glory in a passive way as it would be if it was pre-ordained, then it would not be written in the active voice in the Greek. The active voice means that the subject actively did the action. So, how could the subject (the Son) have done the action (had) if He wasn't there to do it???Lu……….Did Cyrus have it in an active voice also. No He had it in a Forordained Voice by GOD. Jesus is n o exception to this either. Where in scripture does it say He PREEXISTED HIs BERTH, is it in the Profets did any of them say Jesu was already alive in any form or did they say He was to come into Being as the Messiah, Who was Jesus before he was Born if You are so sure He existed in an active voice. Why do Trinitarians and Preexistences have to force there scripture to make it say what in fact it does not say. Why do they Haver to try to add clarity to them. Surely such a great thing as His preexistence would have been clearly spoken of by (ALL) the APOSTLES as well as the Prophets, but Yet there was only One who said anything about Jesus before his berth and that was Peter and He simply said He was (FOREORDAINED) (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) (brought into existence), in (OUR) TIME. Interesting Peter failed to realize Jesus was a Live preexisting (BEING) . Don't you find that rather odd?
And even better…………Jesus never said He existed as a Being in any form before his berth, and the Glory He spoke of was a Glory He (attained to) Not a Past Glory but a (FOREORDAINED) GLORY that was Granted to HIM as the (FIRST) FROM MANKIND TO ACHIEVE THIS GLORY which he now has. This Glory was with GOD in HIS PLAN for HIM , He did achieve it till He achieved it After His death and resurrection. As It says. What is man that thou to him so kind should be for you have created Him lower then the angles , but have crowned Him with GLORY and HONOR, is that in a active sense also, But going on we do not yet see man crowned with this Glory and Honor , but what do we see, we See Jesus who was (MADE) (like us) lower than the angles (NOW) crowned with GLORY AND HONOR>
This is the same with Jesus as with US. Separating Jesus from our (EXACT) Identity is the Spirit of the Antichrist it is the Spirit (intellect) of the Separatists that has infected all ” Christendom” it is every where Here as in most all churches. If you separate Jesus from yourself then you are indeed separated from Him , but this is not Jesus' doing it is Your own self doing it by allowing these false teaching to infect you thinking.
peace and love……………………………gene
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 14 2010,15:13) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 13 2010,23:35) The Glory Jesus (HAD) with the FATHER Was a Preordained GLORY
You add the word preordained to anything you wish.
Anyone could do the same, but it wouldn't make it right.e.g., if you wanted to, you could say that the Jesus of the New Testament is not real yet, but was a parable for someone ordained in our future.
You could in fact nullify any part of the bible with that excuse.
T8…………Ok (FOREORDAINED) so what is the difference, PETER say He was (FOREORDAINED) You say He was PREEXISTING , I agree With PETER He was FOREORDAINED, BY GOD AS THE (FIRST) MAN TO BECOME BORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. YOU SAY HE ALREADY WAS IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD AS SOME KIND OF DEMIGOD OR ANGLE OR WHAT EVER , But you have (NO) scripture Showing Us about what He was in the Past or His Name Or His Position at all. Just your suppositions that he did in fact exist before his berth ONLY NO PROOF, so you and the rest of the Preexistences force the text to come out that way. NO solid Proof while on the other have have Many, many, many, solid Texts, that show He did (NOT) Preexist His Berth. From GOD own Word, to Moses and all the Prophets and Word of Angles and Apostles also, who say nothing of His Preexistence as some kind of Being before His BERTH , for instance JOHN, and BY the Way I have Jesus' WORDS showing His Origins also in REVELATIONS. He is the the Root and Offspring (of) that means from, DAVID as HE SAID HE WAS.I believe i will stay with what scripture as a whole says. Not try to piece mill here and there to force a preconceived conclusion taught by false Christianity as all Trinitarians and Preexistences do.
And by the way have you fixed my editing rights yet?
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2010,10:09) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 14 2010,15:13) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 13 2010,23:35) The Glory Jesus (HAD) with the FATHER Was a Preordained GLORY
You add the word preordained to anything you wish.
Anyone could do the same, but it wouldn't make it right.e.g., if you wanted to, you could say that the Jesus of the New Testament is not real yet, but was a parable for someone ordained in our future.
You could in fact nullify any part of the bible with that excuse.
T8…………Ok (FOREORDAINED) so what is the difference, PETER say He was (FOREORDAINED) You say He was PREEXISTING , I agree With PETER He was FOREORDAINED, BY GOD AS THE (FIRST) MAN TO BECOME BORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. YOU SAY HE ALREADY WAS IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD AS SOME KIND OF DEMIGOD OR ANGLE OR WHAT EVER , But you have (NO) scripture Showing Us about what He was in the Past or His Name Or His Position at all. Just your suppositions that he did in fact exist before his berth ONLY NO PROOF, so you and the rest of the Preexistences force the text to come out that way. NO solid Proof while on the other have have Many, many, many, solid Texts, that show He did (NOT) Preexist His Berth. From GOD own Word, to Moses and all the Prophets and Word of Angles and Apostles also, who say nothing of His Preexistence as some kind of Being before His BERTH , for instance JOHN, and BY the Way I have Jesus' WORDS showing His Origins also in REVELATIONS. He is the the Root and Offspring (of) that means from, DAVID as HE SAID HE WAS.I believe i will stay with what scripture as a whole says. Not try to piece mill here and there to force a preconceived conclusion taught by false Christianity as all Trinitarians and Preexistences do.
And by the way have you fixed my editing rights yet?
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
geneyou say;I believe i will stay with what scripture as a whole says. Not try to piece mill here and there to force a preconceived conclusion taught by false Christianity as all Trinitarians and Preexistence do.
IS THIS NOT AROGAN BECAUSE YOU PLACE YOURSELF ABOVE EVERYONE ELSE AND DOWN GRADE ALL ,AND ASSUMING YOU ARE THE ONLY TRUE VIEW ON THE WHOLE SCRIPTURES.??
IT IS NOT SO WITH US WHO Believe IN PREEXISTANCE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST ALL ACCORDING TO WHAT HE AS PREACHED AND ACCORDING TO HIS APOSTLES WRITTEN WORDS,
SCRIPTURES YOU DENY WITH ALL YOUR STRENGHT BY DENYING THEM,AND SO MAKE YOUR OWN VIEWS BE SUPERSIDED GODS WORD.
NOW IF YOU ARE TRUE WHY NOT EXPLAIN THOSE SCRIPTURES WITH TRUE SPIRIT OF TRUTH SO WE MAY SEE OUR ERROR,BUT IF YOU CANNOT DO THAT THIS WOULD MEAN THAT YOUR BELIEVE IS ONLY YOUR OPINION.
Pierre
Gene, Gene, Gene, all you are doing here on this tread is denying plain enough Scriptures…..:O
Peace IreneQuote (Lightenup @ Oct. 15 2010,08:03) Gene,
What scripture are you referring to when you ask about Cyrus?
LU……….Isa 45:1 ………..ALL of this was written 180 years Before Cyrus was even Born. Some say the Chances are for that it have just Happened is 10 to the 15 power. Cyrus was called a servant of GOD before he ever was born and so was Jeremiah , Read the First several sentences of the Book of Jeremiah. Even John the Baptist was for ordained also. As was many others I believe.peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 15 2010,11:21) Thanks for the info Kathi! And Gene, are you going to answer my questions?
peace and love,
mike
Mike ……….Have answered it you just don't get it. Paul was not talking about Jesus' pre-earth existence at all, only you preexistences make it come out that way even if you must change the context of the text and what it is inferring or even talking about. Mike no matter what you force scripture to say, Jesus did NOT exist as any kind of BEING until He was BORN on EARTH. You have Bought into the Biggest LIE ever Fostered on Christianity By Pagan and Gnostic thinking. As long as you continue to Preach and teach this LIE you are Furthering the VERY SPIRIT (INTELLECT) of THE ANTICHRISTS.peace and love……………………..gene
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