- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
http://thebiblestudy.co.uk/articles/did-jesus-pre-exist-1.php
Did Jesus Christ Pre-Exist?
New Testament Teaching
Let us begin by stating the obvious. Only in the New Testament do we read of Jesus as someone who is alive and taking part in the affairs of human beings living on the earth. And, equally importantly, it is only in the New Testament that we read about the God of heaven being described over and over again as “Father”, a term which is extremely rare in the Old Testament Scriptures.
That does not mean that there is no mention of Jesus in the Old Testament. As the coming Jewish Messiah, much is made of the fact that God would send a Saviour and Deliverer. But the Jewish Scriptures only speak of Jesus in the sense of looking forward to his Coming.
He is not spoken of as already existing, but as someone who would exist one day, when the time was right. Let us look at this more closely.
From the time when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden through to the end of the Old Testament there are repeated prophecies about the future coming of Jesus. Here are some of them.
Old Testament Prophecies
In the Garden of Eden a ‘Seed' – a descendant of Eve – was promised, who would overcome sin and reverse the problem introduced into the world by Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God.
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel” (Genesis 3:15 ).
In Psalm 22, David wrote about Jesus, using many phrases that pointed forward quite explicitly to the crucifixion. For example “they pierced my hands and my feet” and “They parted my garments among them”.
Once the prophet Isaiah met wicked King Ahaz and made one of the most famous prophecies of the Old Testament. He said that a virgin would one day bear a son:
”Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call his name Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14 ).
The prophet Micah predicted that a ruler would come from the town of Bethlehem to reign over the people of Israel , adding something of much interest to our theme.
“You, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to me the One to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2). This ruler, he says, has been planned from the beginning of time. We will come back to this point later.
Zechariah predicts the entry into Jerusalem by Jesus, an event that occurred just before Jesus was crucified just outside that very city. He too speaks of Jesus as a king but we know from the events themselves that this prophecy is fulfilled when Jesus is about to suffer his greatest trial (see Zechariah 9:9 and Matthew 21:4-5).
None of the men who wrote these things met Jesus. They did not hear his voice; they did not see him crucified; they do not claim that he existed in their time. They all expected him to appear in the future, at a time to be decided by God himself.
Mortality of Jesus
There is an even more important reason for limiting the existence of Jesus to New Testament times. It has to do with the fact that Jesus came into this world to bring salvation to all people. They had become a mortal race because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and the removal of the curse could only be done if another human being could obey Him perfectly. Jesus came to do this.
For that to really happen it had to be possible for Jesus to be tempted as other humans were, and it had to be possible for him to disobey. That is exactly what happened. His temptations were absolutely genuine and so were his accomplishments.
“For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15).
Jesus perfectly obeyed his Father and salvation for mankind was accomplished. Jesus rose from the dead and became immortal – the first to rise from the dead never to go back into the grave again.
Exalted by God
The notion that Jesus had lived as a spirit before he was born takes away the power of his triumph over sin and death and the Bible knows nothing of such an idea. Indeed it carefully explains that Jesus was rewarded for his faithful obedience by his Father, who exalted him to sit at His right hand in heaven because he had been faithful. He was not returning to somewhere he had been before, but was being elevated to a new status and position by and with his Father:
“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted him and given him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:5-11).
Although he was the Son of God, because God was his Father, Jesus was born a man, lived a life serving others, and was willing to go to the cross – all in obedience to his Father. Then, and only then, did God exalt him and give him a name above every name. It is only at this stage in the plan of salvation that Jesus is given the greatest honour. Again the idea that he had existed before his birth does not fit in with these Bible truths.
In the next article in this series we look at those passages that are sometimes said to teach something quite different about the nature and work of the Lord Jesus.Perfect Plan
God’s purpose was known to him from the foundation of the world, as the Bible makes clear: “Known to God from eternity are all his works” (Acts 15:18).
Now and again that Divine foreknowledge is specifically referred to. Jeremiah, for example, said that he was known by God even before he had been born:
“The word of the LORD came to me, saying: ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; and I ordained you a prophet to – the nations’” (Jeremiah 1:4,5).
One New Testament passage says that the names of all God’s people were both known and recorded from the beginning, and the same passage tells us something very important about the person and origins of the Lord Jesus. Writing about the Dragon power that will oppose the Lord, the vision reveals that:
“Authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:7,8).
It is the description of the Lamb that we particularly need to notice. He is described as having been “slain from the foundation of the world”. What does this mean? It cannot mean that he was slain at the foundation of the world. We know when the crucifixion took place.
We also know that God was able to predict to Adam, Eve and many others that Jesus would come to bring salvation. The only way we can understand this verse in Revelation is to recognise that God knew from the beginning that His Son would overcome and give his life in a most painful way.
The Right Time
The great truth that arises from these things is that God loved the world from the beginning and put His plan in place at the very start of the creation of the world. This plan centred on Jesus – but Jesus would not appear immediately. He would only appear in the fullness of time. Then he would be born of Mary:
“When the fulness of the time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons” (Galatians 4:4,5).
Let us not interfere with the
wisdom of God. Clearly Jesus came into existence when the time was right for God’s only-begotten son to be born. He had been in God’s plan and purpose from the beginning; now that plan came into effect.
Jesus before Abraham?
There is a passage in John’s gospel which is perfectly consistent with what we have already considered. Here it is:
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to (Jesus), “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:56-58).
This passage has often been used to support the idea that Jesus existed before he was born. When reading the Bible we must remember that it always gives us the same message. It is consistent throughout and verses that seem to conflict require closer consideration. If we have questions about a verse we should always look at its setting. In this case one thing is quickly seen.
Heated Debate
There are many other references to Abraham in the discussion Jesus is having with the Pharisees. In v33 they boast of their descent from Abraham. In v39 Jesus tells them that they ought to follow in the ways of Abraham if they were truly his descendants.
Because of what Jesus says they ask an important question in verse 53: “Are you greater than our Father Abraham, who is dead?”
Remember that we have a big advantage when answering this question because we know what happened to Jesus after this and those events established him as much greater than Abraham. But, when the question was asked, the Pharisees did not know and Jesus still had to try to convince all Jews that he really was their Messiah. You sense the hostility from v53: “Who do you make yourself?”
Now look at the answer Jesus gives in v56 – ”Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad”. How could this be? The Pharisees were dismissive: “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Note the way in which they have changed round the words of Jesus. He did not claim to have seen Abraham, but that Abraham saw his day. What could that mean?
Gospel to Abraham
In Paul’s letter to the Galatians we are told that God could see in advance the way things would work out for the Gentile nations:
“The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed” (Galatians 3:8).
God knew that Jesus would come into the world and that, through faith in him, all nations would then have the opportunity to be saved. This plan was given to Abraham through one of the major promises of God: “In you shall all nations be blessed” (Genesis 12:3) and, Paul says, this was the gospel preached to Abraham. Note carefully the fact that this development was foreseen by God and was told to Abraham as something yet in the future, something we know was due to happen “in the fullness of time” (Galatians 4:4).
In John chapter 8 therefore – the passage we were looking at – we are told that Abraham saw Jesus' day – he looked forward to it as something that would happen in the future and, because that day contained so much promise, he rejoiced in the knowledge that he would be there to see the purpose of God come to its fulfilment, when he was raised from the dead.
This the Pharisees did not understand, so Jesus had to spell it out for them. When he said “Before Abraham was I am” he was gently explaining to them that he is more important than Abraham in the purpose of God, because God has built His whole plan of salvation around the Lord Jesus. It was a matter of who has the pre-eminence; not of who pre-existed. We do well to recognise the truth of God's plan ourselves, so that we can take our place alongside Abraham and many others who are looking forward to the day when Jesus will be revealed as the Saviour of the world.Martian………….Good Post brother. Hope all will come to see this truth.
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Let's be clear.
When Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature), he wasn't called Jesus.
He was given his name when he was born as a man, (after he emptied himself).No, we know that the mystery of Christ is a mystery and we know that we look through a glass darkly.
If the Old Testament said that God was going to send the one that he created all things through, then that is paramount to telling the enemy what your plan is, and then you give him/them a chance to counter your plan.
No God said he would crush the serpents head, and he sent his firstborn of all creation to do the unthinkable.
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.So saying that Jesus is not mentioned as being with God and coming to earth and dying etc, is a mute point. There is a good reason that God didn't divulge his plan.
So the foolishness of God, defeated the wisdom of the rulers of this age.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 14 2010,11:53) Let's be clear. When Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature), he wasn't called Jesus.
He was given his name when he was born as a man, (after he emptied himself).No, we know that the mystery of Christ is a mystery and we know that we look through a glass darkly.
If the Old Testament said that God was going to send the one that he created all things through, then that is paramount to telling the enemy what your plan is, and then you give him/them a chance to counter your plan.
No God said he would crush the serpents head, and he sent his firstborn of all creation to do the unthinkable.
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.So saying that Jesus is not mentioned as being with God and coming to earth and dying etc, is a mute point. There is a good reason that God didn't divulge his plan.
So the foolishness of God, defeated the wisdom of the rulers of this age.
Hi t8:You say:
“Let's be clear.
When Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature), he wasn't called Jesus.
He was given his name when he was born as a man, (after he emptied himself).”But no, that is not what the scripture says. It says:
Quote Phil 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (The mind that was in Christ Jesus is described by the following verses, and they are referring to when he was Christ Jesus) 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Love in Christ,
MartyT8……….Brother you are wrong on this, the mystery was How GOD was (IN) Christ Jesus reconciling the world back to him, that had nothing to do with Jesus' Preexistences at all. Does anyone understand (HOW) GOD can be (IN) a Person? How doe GOD come to live (IN) us and Through , who know (HOW) He does it, i sure do not know does anyone know that? that was the great mystery and still is.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,20:24) T8……….Brother you are wrong on this, the mystery was How GOD was (IN) Christ Jesus reconciling the world back to him, that had nothing to do with Jesus' Preexistences at all. Does anyone understand (HOW) GOD can be (IN) a Person? How doe GOD come to live (IN) us and Through , who know (HOW) He does it, i sure do not know does anyone know that? that was the great mystery and still is. peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
edjGod is anything that has live,because if not it dies,that simple.
God as created the son ,and for the son he as created all thing,but because he created for him God as use the son to create all things,but the father truth can be in all people who lives by his will ,and by letting his spirit of truth work in them so that they may have grace and everlasting live trough the son.
no one as God or Christ in them like you say ,your numbers are failing you.
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 14 2010,12:53) Let's be clear. When Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature), he wasn't called Jesus.
He was given his name when he was born as a man, (after he emptied himself).No, we know that the mystery of Christ is a mystery and we know that we look through a glass darkly.
If the Old Testament said that God was going to send the one that he created all things through, then that is paramount to telling the enemy what your plan is, and then you give him/them a chance to counter your plan.
No God said he would crush the serpents head, and he sent his firstborn of all creation to do the unthinkable.
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.So saying that Jesus is not mentioned as being with God and coming to earth and dying etc, is a mute point. There is a good reason that God didn't divulge his plan.
So the foolishness of God, defeated the wisdom of the rulers of this age.
t8, Good points.To refine what t8 wrote and Shimmer quoted:
Firstborn can mean literal 'first-child' or it can mean 'preEminent-child' and since we know that Jesus wasn't BORN it cannot be literal 'First-born' Son.
God does not “Birth” spirit creatures.Quote (t8 @ Aug. 14 2010,11:53) Let's be clear. When Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature), he wasn't called Jesus.
He was given his name when he was born as a man, (after he emptied himself).No, we know that the mystery of Christ is a mystery and we know that we look through a glass darkly.
If the Old Testament said that God was going to send the one that he created all things through, then that is paramount to telling the enemy what your plan is, and then you give him/them a chance to counter your plan.
No God said he would crush the serpents head, and he sent his firstborn of all creation to do the unthinkable.
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.So saying that Jesus is not mentioned as being with God and coming to earth and dying etc, is a mute point. There is a good reason that God didn't divulge his plan.
So the foolishness of God, defeated the wisdom of the rulers of this age.
all false teachings end up defending their teachings with the “mystery” card. Paul says over and over that we are supposed to understand the mysteries of God.Quote (martian @ Aug. 15 2010,11:37) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 14 2010,11:53) Let's be clear. When Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature), he wasn't called Jesus.
He was given his name when he was born as a man, (after he emptied himself).No, we know that the mystery of Christ is a mystery and we know that we look through a glass darkly.
If the Old Testament said that God was going to send the one that he created all things through, then that is paramount to telling the enemy what your plan is, and then you give him/them a chance to counter your plan.
No God said he would crush the serpents head, and he sent his firstborn of all creation to do the unthinkable.
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.So saying that Jesus is not mentioned as being with God and coming to earth and dying etc, is a mute point. There is a good reason that God didn't divulge his plan.
So the foolishness of God, defeated the wisdom of the rulers of this age.
all false teachings end up defending their teachings with the “mystery” card. Paul says over and over that we are supposed to understand the mysteries of God.
martianit is only a mystery to those who do not understand.
PIERRE
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 15 2010,01:11) To refine what t8 wrote and Shimmer quoted: Firstborn can mean literal 'first-child' or it can mean 'preEminent-child' and since we know that Jesus wasn't BORN it cannot be literal 'First-born' Son.
God does not “Birth” spirit creatures.
Right again JA!the Roo
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 15 2010,01:11) To refine what t8 wrote and Shimmer quoted: Firstborn can mean literal 'first-child' or it can mean 'preEminent-child' and since we know that Jesus wasn't BORN it cannot be literal 'First-born' Son.
God does not “Birth” spirit creatures.
Hi JA,I have never read this – could you give me the scripture(s) that explained this to you?
mike
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 14 2010,20:47) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,20:24) T8……….Brother you are wrong on this, the mystery was How GOD was (IN) Christ Jesus reconciling the world back to him, that had nothing to do with Jesus' Preexistences at all. Does anyone understand (HOW) GOD can be (IN) a Person? How doe GOD come to live (IN) us and Through , who know (HOW) He does it, i sure do not know does anyone know that? that was the great mystery and still is. peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
edjGod is anything that has live,because if not it dies,that simple.
God as created the son ,and for the son he as created all thing,but because he created for him God as use the son to create all things,but the father truth can be in all people who lives by his will ,and by letting his spirit of truth work in them so that they may have grace and everlasting live trough the son.
no one as God or Christ in them like you say ,your numbers are failing you.
Pierre
genesorry edj ,this is for gene .
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2010,22:48) Terricca………..Your post makes no sense at all. It has nothing to do with what i said. gene
geneit is with what you think
Pierre
God can do anything, if He wants us to understand what is written, He will do so. If He blinds some , He will blind some. The understanding comes from God and not of what anybody is saying. Any Translator can translate into whatever they see. However if it is not from God those that are called out by God will see it. Why did some of the Translators us LORD and Lord in Scriptures. Is it because they did not know the name of God, or is it because the stood in Aw of God and did not want t o take Gods name in vain. Was Jesus a literal Son of God in the beginning or not? In several Scriptures it says that He was. A Spirit Being in the form of God. Most of you here know them all. So why is the misunderstanding going on and on about it? I believe that if God wants to blind a person, He will blind Him for all of those Scriptures…. Pride is mostly the reason why. If someone is humble and has God's Holy Spirit, He should understand those Scriptures….. Even by Jesus own words some will deny them……. and nobody will open their eyes until God wants them to see, that is my conclusion about all this confusion. This has gone on for over 800 posts and we should know about why!!!!!!!……
The Bakers LadyMike,
The answer is 'no'.
We believe by faith and the word of God.
Had you not got hung up in proving the unprovable you would be agreeing with me now. Pity.
I told you long ago that Jack was right, i persisted with you that Jack was right, in private, now I say it publicly. Jack is right concerning 'this issue'.Mike, there are no explicit statements declaring how 'preJesus' came into being. We know that he came into being because he is a Son. The Father has to have existed before the Son for the Son to have been conceived…brought into being…by Him who was previously alone. One does not become a Father except by conceivng an offspring.
Whoa, don't start responding yet!
Conceived…this is a 'human' term…
Think 'Spirit'. Spirits do not 'conceive' bodily. A Spirit 'creates'. Spirits, in a crude term, are 'energy forces with intelli gence'. God is all energy and all intelligence. God can take of His energy and intelligence and 'create' an independent 'intelligent spirit force', an Angel, to give it a species name.
Where in Sriptures does it say that preJesus was the 'first' of such creations. It certainly says that he is the first 'over' creation. Tell me that that means the same as first 'of' creation.
And then, tell me why God, after never mentioning preJesus directly, then directs the Apostles to state that preJesus was 'first of God's creations'.
What does it prove that God took of Himself and created a near likeness of Himself? Should we be surprised?
But what if what God created proved itself to be 'like God', now is that not something to shout out in praise for? For that one has proved himself worthy to wear the Crown of the Prince and become, indeed, the FIRST, the Exemplary, the Most Glorious, the Head over all created beings, be they Angels , Humans or animals or plants, all acknowledge his earned power and authority.Witness the Olive tree that did not produce it's fruit, even being out of season, when Jesus passed by. What happened, Jesus cursed it, and it immediately…shrivelled and died!
Yes, there is more to that story than just that but it isn't relevant in this post.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
